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📝 Dev Discussion #68 - Crowd Control 🤼

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Comments

  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 10
    1. How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?

      - I feel that CC should not be used as enabler for "one-shot combos", and other similar stuff. It should be there as assistance, not as something mandatory to enable you to do damage. Therefore, I do not think one class should have access to "CC combos". It's fine if you combo it with multiple different classes, in order to lock someone down, but 1 class or rather 1 person shouldn't be able to do that.

      - I hate chain cc, and I feel diminishing returns on CC should be mandatory.

      - Variety is important. Each class needs access to different CC abilities, Mages might have sleep, as the only hard cc option, with a bunch of slows, freezes, etc. While a Ranger might have access to immobilizes, slows, roots.
      If you make it so every class has access to same CC abilities, it just decreases class variety and uniqueness of each class.
      Bad example of this is GW2, where every class can do everything (basically).

      - Some classes should have access to more CC than others. After all, each class should be unique, and this is also one of the ways to do it.


    2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?

      - CC breaks are fine, but not every class should have them in their ability kit. Or rather, each class might have specific ways to counter specific CC effects.
      Maybe Bard will have some anti-stun abilities/short time buffs. Fighter might have some anti-slow ability/buff. These abilities should be used pre-emptively, or if you are already under that cc-effect, you are able to use them to decrease the duration/intensity of said effect or to completely remove it.
      Also since everything is based around group play, you then might want to have some classes, in order to counter specific things.

      In terms of general cc-breaks, you might have to get a specific item that has an active portion that breaks some CC spells, if your class doesn't have access to cc break for that specific type of cc.


    3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

      - I generally think that should be the case. I can focus on more CC/CC breaks for PvP related stuff, but I might not do as much damage. Though that's something you should decide, based on the class you play, and your playstyle in general.
      I might want to play as a backline Mage dps, and I might not care about cc/cc breaks as much, as I really just want to deal as much damage as possible to enemies.
      At the same time, if I play a more frontline focused Mage, I might want more cc/cc breaks, as I'm at bigger risk of being caught, and I do want ability to cc enemies, in order for my team to have an easier time of dealing with them.
  • dejvid97dejvid97 Member, Alpha Two
    When it comes to cc in pvp if u are CCd for 3 seconds lets say maybe u get some ternacity that next cc that should be maybe 1 sec lasts only for 0.5sec and one long CCbreak ability each class or smaller CD on bard/cleric soo they are not just heal bots
  • DeathdockDeathdock Member, Alpha Two
    I think not every Archetyp should have some type of hard cc (stun, rout, silence,...) but some type of soft cc ( slow, push, slow attakspeed and casts,...)
    The Archetypen with the most burst dps schold be the ones with the least hard cc.
    Hard cc should be very rare and with high coldown so that it is a huge comitment to use a hard cc but can be critical at the right moment. If the duration is long it schould have a other way to be broken the just cc break from a support or your one.
  • MortyMorty Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 10
    ariatras wrote: »

    1. How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?

    While CC can add a layer of strategy to MMORPGs, its overuse often leads to frustrating and unenjoyable gameplay. Excessive CC mechanics can strip players of control over their characters for prolonged periods, turning engaging combat into a cycle of helplessness. This not only diminishes the player's agency but also disrupts the flow of the game.

    In PvP scenarios, prevalent CC abilities can create an unbalanced playing field where victory is determined not by skill or strategy but by who can immobilize the other first. This can lead to a toxic environment where players feel cheated out of fair fights. In PvE, over-reliance on CC can make encounters feel monotonous, as players repeatedly disable enemies rather than engaging with dynamic combat mechanics.

    CC breaks, intended to counteract CC effects, can further complicate the issue. If CC is so rampant that CC breaks become a necessity, it indicates a fundamental imbalance in the game's design. Players should not have to dedicate resources or abilities solely to counteract an overpowered mechanic. Instead, CC should be used sparingly to enhance combat, not dominate it.

    Yeah, THIS.
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    edited October 11
    Some MMOs use excessively long CC which prevents player counterplay due to lack of removal/resistance options. This results in players getting stunlocked, feeling helpless and generally not fun gameplay. That's why it's crucial for there to be balance between CC and counters to CC. Hard CCs should fall between 0.5-3 seconds and soft CCs can last around 0.5-8 seconds depending on the effect. Some on the lower range of duration are better used as interrupts while the longer lasting ones are to pin down targets.

    Every primary archetype should have some form of a CC break plus diminishing returns for CC. An additional option to mitigate CCs should be properly timed dodges, blocks or movement skills which would be reactive and skillful gameplay. Some classes/archetypes should have more access than others via base abilities, augments and specs. Tank should have the most access to CC Breaks, Resistance or Immunity AND Hard CCs, the next should be Fighter. Here's a breakdown of how it should work:

    Archetypes with the most access to CC and Hard CC:
    1. Tank - Has the most access to all forms of CC and most powerful depending on spec/ability choice including Stuns, knockdowns, knockback/knockups, pulls, slows, roots, silence, etc.
    2. Fighter - Has the second highest access to Hard CC and various CCs based on spec/class including Stuns, knockdowns, knockback/knockups, pulls, slows, roots, silence, etc. Has more access with Tank secondary archetype
    3. Mage has a fair amount of CC options depending on spec and ability choice. Has more access to hard CC with Tank or Fighter secondary archetype
    4. Support has a fair amount of CC options depending on spec and ability choice. Has more access to hard CC with Tank or Fighter secondary archetype
    5. Ranger and Rogue - Has mostly soft CCs and limited access to hard CC. Has more access to hard CC with any of the above secondary archetypes

    Archetypes with the most access to CC breaks/Reduction/Immunity/Cleanses:
    1. Tank - The Highest access of CC breaks/Reduction/Immunity out of any class. Cleanses only via Support secondary Archetype
    2. Fighter - Their own CC break+ a good amount of CC breaks/Reduction/Immunity via base ability choice, augments and specs. Cleanses only via Support secondary Archetype
    3. Support- Their own CC break and limited additional CC breaks/Reduction/Immunity via base ability choice, augments and specs, but have the highest access to allied CC cleanses or group cleanses.
    4. Mage, Ranger, Rogue - Their own CC break and limited access to additional CC breaks/Reduction/Immunity. Cleanses only via Support secondary Archetype. Has more access to CC breaks/reduction/Immunity with any of the above secondary archetypes via base ability choice, augments and specs.

    Lastly, I believe there should be CCs that are common across all classes like slow/stun and ones that are archetype specific like knockdown, knockback for tank/fighter and sleep, root for mage/support. So some archetypes will get those ability choices from the start and additional effects are accessible via augments from secondary archetypes.
  • YohYoh Member, Alpha Two
    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    As a general rule, I think CC should have diminishing returns. If 4 players stun another, the duration shouldn't be 4 times longer, even if they are able to chain one after the other. CC should feel as good to use, as it should to be used on. Which can be challenging if said CC takes your agency away. Likewise with CC breaks. I would prefer CC to be well telegraphed, so that it feels like it is your fault for getting caught in it, rather than just because your foe pressed 5 on their keyboard.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    I can dig it, provided some have more then others. Some are better at applying CC, while others are better at avoiding it. That being said, given the Archetype x Archetype system, you can get away with some not having any, and simply allow them to get it by taking a secondary Archetype that does.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    There needs to be a push/pull with skill points/slots, so that there is always a limit on how much you can reasonably bring to the table. Naturally, spending on skills other then damage will reduced your damage output. It's kind of a given.
    And that's fine, if you want to heavily invest in CC over damage, you should be able to, so long as there are reasonable deminishing returns should be the case with everything.
  • GilsGils Member
    It's hard to give thoughts about CC without knowing how Global Cool Down (GCD) will be in the game. CC and GCD are interconnected. For example 3 seconds stun may seem short, but if you can use 4 GCDs during this time it might be too much.
    Then there should be different approach to CC if the game is competitive or just open world funny mess. If there is no rated PvP then CC can be more RNG with heart beat break mechanics and it will add some exciting moments. But in competitive environment it will bring unfairness and frustration.
    Same goes for consumables removing CC. If you will be forced to spend a lot of money on consumables in rated instanced PvP it will be harmful for the game.
  • FalkathFalkath Member, Alpha Two
    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    I don’t think you can really call it an MMORPG if you don’t have CC and CC breaks. They’re crucial for making combat engaging. I also think it’s important to have CC immunity buffs—short, timed buffs you can use when you know CC is coming, giving you temporary immunity. These increase the skill ceiling since you have to time them properly, and they shouldn't last long. Without CC, combat would just be a spam of damage and healing abilities, turning fights into boring stat checks. I hope Ashes of Creation has reactive combat, where you can lock, slow, or debuff opponents, and they can respond with CC breaks, survival skills, etc.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    I really hope each class has its own unique CC break, not a generic "remove-all-CC" button like ArcheAge did later with the Defiance skill, which cleared all CC with a 5-minute cooldown. That felt lazy. What ArcheAge had earlier was better, with a mix of CC breaks and CC immunity buffs that could only be used when you weren’t already controlled. And these breaks don’t need to be standalone skills—movement skills for rangers or rogues could allow them to jump out of snares, or a rallying cry for melee could clear hard CC and give a short immunity to stuns. I think a good combat system has movement skills + CC breaks, or charge skills + CC immunity buffs. And not just press R to purge all type of CC [Cooldown 120 seconds].

    However, support classes (Tank, Healer, Bard) should be the kings of CC breaks. It wouldn’t feel fair for DPS classes to have the same amount of control-clearing power as support classes.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    Choosing between CC/CC breaks and damage when allocating skill points should be something that’s noticeable in combat. You should feel the impact of that decision. It’s hard to gauge how much this will matter without testing the combat yet, but ideally, we should have to make meaningful choices. For example, should a ranger/rogue’s escape skill grant CC immunity to kite or just break the snare? Or should it give a longer movement boost? These kinds of choices should matter.

    I think a game that really didn't do CCs properly is Throne & Liberty, where some support class could sleep in AoE for like 7 seconds ? In a game where there are not a single CC cleanser unless we swipe (LMFAO) Please don't do that. 1 click shouldn't lock everyone without possibility to escape.
    Movements needs to feel fluid if we play our CC breaks & CC immunity buffs properly, and it should feel terrible if we don't.
    I'm an advocate for a combat with Big DMG + Big CC + Big Heals + Big Survival skills, make every class feel strong and impactful then work from there, if the combat feels like a stat check then at least it's really old school ?
    Lastly I think a tank should be able to boost his shield block ability to counter and reflect a CC on a perfect block, just a thought.
  • invisibledecoyinvisibledecoy Member, Alpha Two
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I want CC to matter, using it strategically instead of just on cooldown.

    In PvE, if my group is pulling a room full of trash, and there are more than one big guys in the pull, we should have to manage CC, any long sleeps, long stuns, on one or more of the big guys so the tank can actually handle soaking up the rate of damage. And the group should be careful to not break the sleep on that guy.

    Stronger pve enemies should also get CC they can use on us. Occasional snares or knockdowns.

    That being said, there is nothing more frustrating in a MMO than being stunlocked, so dont go overboard with it. It should take a considerable amount of coordination in a group to stunlock someone. One player should not be able to shut someone down forever.

    CC breaks depend on the intended time to kill. In a game where the time to kill is very short as in 10s or less, we NEED a cc break without question or there is zero chance to counterplay it. In a game with a short time to kill, you use CC, then dump all your damage during CC to secure the kill.


    If the time to kill is longer, the need for the CC break is less or not at all even.
    Longer time to kill makes using CC against an enemy strategic. Interrupting a heal, or big damaging move will be the primary use of CC. If the enemy is at low health you can treat it like above and use the CC itself to secure a damage window to force a kill.

    Abilities that give CC immunity for a time I think are more valuable than a CC break, because they require you to plan its use. Use it so you can perform your big damage combo, or get the heal cast when you know they will waste their CC to try to interrupt you, or some other situation you need to make happen.

    Also passives that reduce CC duration are nice to consider to.

    Diminishing returns is another topic that should be carefully considered. Its also frustrating when I need to stun someone, but they are immune because someone else stunned them a minute ago.

    Classic WoW did this pretty well since there was longer cooldowns on abilities and very few forms of CC break. Rogues completely relied on CC since they couldn't go toe to toe with most classes without it. The diminishing returns also made it so stunlock required much more strategy. Later on, there were too many way to break CC and classes didn't feel like they had a role anymore as they could all essentially do the same things.

    From an RPG standpoint, I believe CC should have a large impact on engagement tactics and not have so many ways to get out of CC that it becomes a form of interrupt. CC allows a smaller group to engage a larger force on equal terms so long as they have the skills. Damage breaking most forms of CC like sleep adds to the complexity of the engagements.

    I think each class should have ONE form of CC break with a long cooldown (~ 1-2 minutes). This will allow the players to play around an ambush but at the same time they must consider when to use the CC break so they are not without it at a more crucial moment. Diminishing returns should help alleviate a player getting CC locked for a whole fight while taking damage. (Sap in WoW was such a powerful tool when engaging multiple enemies but it was only so effective because it lasted 30 seconds!).
  • KillergamingKillergaming Member, Alpha Two
    ariatras wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    rb5zx3a7njfx.png


    3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

    Forcing players to choose between CC/CC breaks and damage when allocating skill points creates an unhealthy gameplay dynamic. It pressures players into investing in CC-related abilities not because they enhance their chosen playstyle, but because they are necessary to remain competitive. This limits build diversity and can make character progression feel restrictive.

    When CC is overly prevalent, neglecting CC or CC breaks in favor of damage can leave players at a significant disadvantage, unable to perform effectively in both PvE and PvP. This can lead to a homogenization of builds, where optimal play requires a specific allocation of skill points, reducing the freedom players have to customize their characters.

    Furthermore, this trade-off can be detrimental to class roles. For example, damage dealers may feel compelled to sacrifice their primary function—dealing damage—in order to invest in CC breaks. This undermines the class system and can lead to imbalanced group dynamics, where players are less effective in their intended roles because they had to compensate for the overpowered CC mechanics.

    I agree with the above, the "need" for a CC or CC break on every character type for balance purposes becomes very cookie cutter in terms of build selection. If they are limited to just a few roles where this is a functional "support" class ability like a charm or sleep ability for bards and a snare for a hunter or rogue then it'll encourage broader group selection.
    There are lots of ways to control difficult mobs without needing to apply a CC spell. Smart players can do more than just push more buttons on cooldown.
  • RintaRinta Member
    I don't think there's anything wrong with CC or hard CC as a concept, the whole "I can't play my character" concern is illusory - you equally can't play your character if you get your attempts at harvesting repeatedly interrupted by an unkillable Healer since you don't have any CCs.

    As for whether everybody should have CCs / CC breaks - in my opinion, no class should be able to do it all, that's the mindset coming from solo MMORPG players, which I hope Ashes will avoid. Ashes already has classic branching into DPS, Heals, and Tanking (which I really hope will have a PvP-themed set of skills as well) types of skills; CC, CC-break of other players, and Creative Buffing/Debuffing can be four other branches to work with.

    Let there be an archetype / skill tree branch / weapon skill set that lets you excel in CC-breaking but not Healing, DPS, or Tanking (they may still be mediocre at some of these). Let there be an archetype that has several strong CCs but can't do much with the time gained from these CCs on their own. Create impressive multi-target CCs that require cooperation of two or more people to enact (a quartet of Bards with distinct instruments putting the whole battlefield to sleep).

    Self CC-break for hard CCs in my opinion should be exceedingly rare, as it is counter to group play. Perhaps you could let a hard Healer have one (e.g. at the end of a long zero-DPS Heal-heavy skill branch), since this kind of playstyle already demands a group.
  • BirthdayBirthday Member
    edited October 12
    Vaknar wrote: »
    rb5zx3a7njfx.png

    Dev Discussion - Crowd Control
    Crowd Control (CC) are abilities that Interrupt or disable an enemy’s movement. CC breaks are abilities that cancel or stop CC abilities.
    • How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    • How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    • What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

    I hate the fact WoW made it so every class feels the same. Vanilla and TBC was okay. Then from WOTLK and especially Cataclysm things started to go downwards. Rogues got self-heals for example. Why? Pointless. Nonsensical. Just catering to the "You are the hero. You can do everything yourself" agenda. No, thank you I don't want to see this in AoC and intreped.

    Two things:
    1.Spells, in this case CC, should be unique to every class.
    2.Each class has to have it's specific best suite/expertise and all other classes shouldn't even be mimicking what they do.

    What I mean:

    1.Unique spells For example
    1. Rogues can have CC in the sort of:
    a) - blind (applies higher chance for the enemy to miss melee/ranged/spells),
    b)silence - which can be used to interrupt a magic spell that is being channeled.
    c)silence for physical fighters, can be something like "strike weakspot/cut muscle tissue or after you apply X amounts of poison stacks", that silences only physical users for a 2-3 seconds.

    Other classes can't have the same things in their kit.

    For example instead of mages having a silence too, they can have "mirror-spell" which doesn't stop the other person's cast but allows you to instacast the spell he is channelling.
    Frost mages can have roots and are of effect channeled slows. So a channelled slow would be like casting a forceful cold wind in cone shape against your enemy causing damage and slowing them. Once you stop channeling it stops slowing them after 1 second.

    Summoners could have fears, not slows and roots.

    Rangers should have a lot of mobility and their CC should be extremely connected with skillful use of their movement like WoW's hunter traps.

    Fighters - bleeds which make the opponent choose between staying in 1 spot taking less damage from bleed or moving and taking triple damage from bleed.

    2. Each class has to have it's expertise

    For example: Bards can AoE remove CC and make single targets immune to CC, they can charm their opponents making them deal less damage to everyone for X amount of time etc.
    Rogues have a lot of burst DPS and tricks up their sleeves like debuffs to make opponents miss their skills, interrupt their casts etc.
    Mages great at AoE damage and hard CC
    Rangers sustained, hard to reach DPS
    Summoners lots of soft CC and obviously summoned units
    Fighters sustained DPS with stuns and DPS which increases if certain conditions are met like the example of the bleed or for other example when his HP goes lower.
    Tanks - tank.

    Every class should feel completely unique. It shouldnt be like WoW where every class has a stun, every class has a silence, every class has a heal.

    Kits have to be absolutely unique is what I am saying. I don't want to see each class have the same abilities just re-skined with a different animation, power-level and range.
  • Xavier_FooXavier_Foo Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 13

    You commented twice expressing against CC. An MMO without CC combos becomes an MMO with extremely flawed combat, ruins the experience of all melee classes and deprives all players that enjoy spec into CC, being a DPS or a Support it's a widely played play style and adds dynamic/variety to the game, When both your opponents need to think about the order of skills, debuffs, stuns and cc breaks this makes the fight fun instead of a fight where it depends on who generates more damage faster.

    CC IS NEEDED.

    Yes, I am against CC spam. Having some soft CC sprinkled here in there is essential, I agree it is needed. Like I was saying, chill, blind, weakness etc. these are all soft CC and should exist. But, seeing how some other well established games have introduced skills with CC only to find out that players absolutely exploit them to the point where the game is not fun to play anymore I am just saying that they should be introduced with caution.

    I will wait for the Alpha 2 to feel the combat system and will provide more feedback. I am mostly interested in the PvP aspect of the game so I will test that heavily.
  • LOLPlazaLOLPlaza Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Im going to be approaching this from a pvp perspective since i dont have much experience with it in pve.
    I main ranger for context.

    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    I feel they are a core staple of mmorpg pvp. I think good pvp is balanced around it, and i believe everyone needs opportunity and counterplay in this regard. Black desert online is quite well balanced around it, with good players always being able to kill worse players in any class matchup, even though the combat is heavily centered around cc. However i feel they took it a step too far, since every single class has cc and most of their pvp has become 'who can land their cc first and follow up on it'. I believe it shouldnt be the main goal in all matchups, but i think it should be a factor in all matchups. I think certain matchups can revolve around it (like a monk vs a battle mage), but when even the bard and ranger pvp has their main goal as cc i think it doesnt feel unique and breaks immersion. I think nimble archetypes should be more focused on avoiding being cc'd, tankier archetypes should be more focused on applying cc, and all others should be somewhere in the middle in a way that aligns with their identity.
    I also fear that a game that focuses on a lot of large large scale pvp like ashes of creation will have a very hard time balancing cc in both 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, 10v10, 100v100 at the same time.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    I dont agree with this. I think there is plenty of counterplay to cc other than breaking out after being hit by it. Iframes, superarmor, dodging, blocking, stopping projectiles, creating terrain. There are so many ways to avoid getting hit by cc in an mmorpg setting, and talking about cc breaks like its mortal kombat is concerning. I feel CC breaks can be a place in pvp, but it should never be the go-to counterplay to cc for any class ever. A tank should have ways to block it, an assasin should have a way to dodge it, a mage should have a way to dispell it, and everyone should still be able to stunn people despite this. When you add a cc-break ability into a kit that already has ways to avoid being hit in the first place (i hope), it drastically decreases the threat of cc's existence in the first place. I think classes that fit it (like a berserker or warrior type) should definitely have cc breaks as part of their kit, but i think the majority of classes should have other tools instead. If your way of balance is to give everyone the same thing then my archetype doesnt feel as immersive as i would like it to be.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    I personally hate the idea very much. It allows for character building mistakes that can be very punishing. If i, as a ranger, spec too much into my damage without knowing how later game pvp works, then i'm all of a sudden stat-checked by people who didnt underspec into cc. But i also dont want to spec too much into it and miss out on damage that i could have had in pve. In black desert they make you allocate between these 3, but there its very different because after a certain point you have unlocked every single skill in your classes skilltree. As far as i know, ashes of creation does not plan to allow you to unlock every part of your archetype at the same time. If re-allocating skill points is free and can be done at any time, then i have no issue with having to allocate between damage, cc and cc breaks. But if it costs resources to change my build, and you create this many opportunities for me to fuck it up over and over and over again, then that would eventually make me not want to play. I also think that having to switch between loadouts and skill allocation before every event (if im about to do siege, 1v1, or just escort a merchant), it becomes very very tedious, and i want my character to instead be able to do it all with one build, even if that comes at the cost of some creativity and min maxing. I fully support being able to optimize your character more for different aspects of pvp and pve, and maybe being able to switch between a pvp and pve loadout, but when i have to optimize a specific build for every occasion just to be competetive, the menu-ing alone will drive me insane.
  • CarlisleCarlisle Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 13
    LOLPlaza wrote: »
    Im going to be approaching this from a pvp perspective since i dont have much experience with it in pve.
    I main ranger for context.

    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    I feel they are a core staple of mmorpg pvp. I think good pvp is balanced around it, and i believe everyone needs opportunity and counterplay in this regard. Black desert online is quite well balanced around it, with good players always being able to kill worse players in any class matchup, even though the combat is heavily centered around cc. However i feel they took it a step too far, since every single class has cc and most of their pvp has become 'who can land their cc first and follow up on it'. I believe it shouldnt be the main goal in all matchups, but i think it should be a factor in all matchups. I think certain matchups can revolve around it (like a monk vs a battle mage), but when even the bard and ranger pvp has their main goal as cc i think it doesnt feel unique and breaks immersion. I think nimble archetypes should be more focused on avoiding being cc'd, tankier archetypes should be more focused on applying cc, and all others should be somewhere in the middle in a way that aligns with their identity.
    I also fear that a game that focuses on a lot of large large scale pvp like ashes of creation will have a very hard time balancing cc in both 1v1, 3v3, 5v5, 10v10, 100v100 at the same time.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    I dont agree with this. I think there is plenty of counterplay to cc other than breaking out after being hit by it. Iframes, superarmor, dodging, blocking, stopping projectiles, creating terrain. There are so many ways to avoid getting hit by cc in an mmorpg setting, and talking about cc breaks like its mortal kombat is concerning. I feel CC breaks can be a place in pvp, but it should never be the go-to counterplay to cc for any class ever. A tank should have ways to block it, an assasin should have a way to dodge it, a mage should have a way to dispell it, and everyone should still be able to stunn people despite this. When you add a cc-break ability into a kit that already has ways to avoid being hit in the first place (i hope), it drastically decreases the threat of cc's existence in the first place. I think classes that fit it (like a berserker or warrior type) should definitely have cc breaks as part of their kit, but i think the majority of classes should have other tools instead. If your way of balance is to give everyone the same thing then my archetype doesnt feel as immersive as i would like it to be.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    I personally hate the idea very much. It allows for character building mistakes that can be very punishing. If i, as a ranger, spec too much into my damage without knowing how later game pvp works, then i'm all of a sudden stat-checked by people who didnt underspec into cc. But i also dont want to spec too much into it and miss out on damage that i could have had in pve. In black desert they make you allocate between these 3, but there its very different because after a certain point you have unlocked every single skill in your classes skilltree. As far as i know, ashes of creation does not plan to allow you to unlock every part of your archetype at the same time. If re-allocating skill points is free and can be done at any time, then i have no issue with having to allocate between damage, cc and cc breaks. But if it costs resources to change my build, and you create this many opportunities for me to fuck it up over and over and over again, then that would eventually make me not want to play. I also think that having to switch between loadouts and skill allocation before every event (if im about to do siege, 1v1, or just escort a merchant), it becomes very very tedious, and i want my character to instead be able to do it all with one build, even if that comes at the cost of some creativity and min maxing. I fully support being able to optimize your character more for different aspects of pvp and pve, and maybe being able to switch between a pvp and pve loadout, but when i have to optimize a specific build for every occasion just to be competetive, the menu-ing alone will drive me insane.

    I think it wont be hard to replace points in the skill tree, so that is not punishing if you make some mistakes you can just fix it later on
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    CC is important, but not to be taken lightly. Players should be able to CC in intervals, to create distance or to close gaps, but those closers or gap times shouldnt be able to be permanent or too prolonged. A good example is the Vanilla WoW rogue being able to stunlock players indefinitely, or even WoW frost mages being able to slow and kite massive groups of mobs to AoE farm ultra efficiently.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    It should depend on the Archetypes playstyle and identity. Should EVERY class get a CC break? No not necessarily. If some archetypes are super squishy or rely on mobility, sure give them anti-cc and cc breaks. If an archetype is more like a wrecking ball who can facetank like crazy while outputting massive damage, maybe keep that type of character more vulnerable to being CCed. It doesnt feel good for EVERY archetype to have a copy paste ability. Though I have mentioned awhile back that a good "every player" ability would be to turn non-combatant CC immunity into an active ability committing the player to non-combatant status for a set amount of time and committing to escaping, as to not be able to exploit the use of CC immunity to close the gap quickly in a PvP confrontation, a player ambushing another shouldnt be punished just for engaging. But this suggestion is very niche.
    Also take into consideration range vs melee and how much the archetype needs to rely on CC and CC breaks to achieve those playstyles strategically.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    It depends on the archetypes playstyle really. But generally I would say archetypes who are glass cannons should not also be able to CC as much as other classes who are more evened out, seeing as their main way of dispatching enemies is killing them quickly without also dying quickly. An archetype who heavily relies on mobility should likely rely on either CCs or CC-breaks/resistance, but theyd also likely not be hitting like a truck when they close in.
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  • RenathrasRenathras Member, Alpha Two
    As a rule, my view on Crowd Control is that it's a useful tool, but players should NEVER lose control of their character. Snare a warrior as a mage and they're annoyed and may not be able to win, but they can still walk. They can still try to LOS you, shoot you with a bow, use defensive CDs. The point is, the player still has AGENCY.

    This is important.

    It's why snares, even roots, are generally "fun" kinds of crowd control, since players are still playing the game.

    Contrast "loss of control" kinds of crowd control. Say you are stunlocked, slept, polymorphed, sapped, and so on. You simply can't do anything. For 10-20-40-60 seconds, you watch your health bar go down and you are like a Human vegetable, able to see through your eyes but be unable to move or speak as you slowly die.

    If that isn't fun in real life - why would it be fun in a game?

    The only ones having a paralyzed person tied up while beating them to a pulp is fun for are the people having the person paralyzed and tied up while beating them to death with impunity. It's not fun being unable to move, act, or use any abilities or actions. Ever.

    At that point, you may just was well force DC/Alt+F4 and do something else since you can't actually play the game anymore, so what's the point continuing the "fight"?

    I've held to this position for 20 years now, across dozens of games and game types and genres; players should never completely use control of their characters.

    ...now, this still leaves lots of windows open. For example, roots and snares. Turning someone into a critter that CAN still run, line of sight you, maybe even turn the tables by sneaking through a small passage you couldn't normally fit into if they want to escape.

    CC should also pretty much always have diminishing returns, otherwise even with the limited forms, we run into the "bully build" of someone making builds that just "harass people to death" slowly and annoyingly. Note that I don't have problems with using such builds against NPCs, but they shouldn't work against players that way.

    Again, at that point, you may just was well force DC/Alt+F4 and do something else since you can't actually play the game anymore, so what's the point continuing the "fight"?

    .

    Those are my views on CC, anyway:

    1) NEVER loss of control of character. At the very least, the player should be able to either move, use actions, or both. Moving slowly, having some actions restricted, roots that don't allow movement but allow ability use, etc, are all fair game.

    2) Diminishing returns to prevent "forever CC" builds.
  • RenathrasRenathras Member, Alpha Two
    As to the specific questions, given the above:

    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    As said above, CC should NEVER cause a total loss of control of character and ALWAYS have diminishing returns. No stuns/etc, but roots OR polymorph (provided the player can move) OR snares, etc, are acceptable. As for CC breaks, having some way to break or counter CC is nice (e.g. a warrior who is rooted by a frost mage using a harpoop to grab the mage, drag them into melee, and root THEM to that spot is a counter, even if the warrior hasn't broken himself being rooted).

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    Should be a given. Everyone should have either breaks or counters to get them out of a jam.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    I tend not to play many PvP games, so speaking more PvE, but I like having some CC options to get out of a bind, even if it's more just facilitating my escape.
  • RenathrasRenathras Member, Alpha Two
    I suppose VERY short duration (e.g. 2-4 second) stuns are fine, but 5, 10+ seconds of being stunned is just not fun and bad game design.
  • CarlisleCarlisle Member, Alpha Two
    As to the specific questions, given the above:

    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    As said above, CC should NEVER cause a total loss of control of character and ALWAYS have diminishing returns. No stuns/etc, but roots OR polymorph (provided the player can move) OR snares, etc, are acceptable. As for CC breaks, having some way to break or counter CC is nice (e.g. a warrior who is rooted by a frost mage using a harpoop to grab the mage, drag them into melee, and root THEM to that spot is a counter, even if the warrior hasn't broken himself being rooted).

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    Should be a given. Everyone should have either breaks or counters to get them out of a jam.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    I tend not to play many PvP games, so speaking more PvE, but I like having some CC options to get out of a bind, even if it's more just facilitating my escape.

    Pve player for sure
  • MissionCreepMissionCreep Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You have to decide what is the goal of CC before you implement it.

    I think realistically you can make CC relatively powerful but give it long cooldowns. Long CD's in PvP are not good and it means that your power has to be used VERY strategically. If your PvP opponent survives the CC, you won't be able to use it again.

    Or you do what most modern games do, and you have targets build up an immunity to CC based on what they are hit with and how powerful it is.

    Alternatively you make CC more common, faster cooldowns, and you hand out CC breaks as an option.

    One thing about CC break > damage...I'm just going to take the barebones CC break, I'm not going to "spec" into it. So it's always going to just cost 1 point no matter what the tree looks like (not counting pre-reqs to unlock it). I hit it once and run away, I don't need more than that.

    The exception would be a tank (etc) expecting to draw aggro. In that case I'd prioritize putting points to max it. (Maybe)

    So what happens is, you have the aggressor who spent 1-10 points and gear on their CC then you have the target who spent ONE POINT on a CC break to nullify those multiple points of CC.
    This is why the break is so valuable.

    Also CC Break = better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
    If it only costs 1 point, which I'm sure it will.
  • Vaknar wrote: »
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    Dev Discussions are an opportunity to join in on player discussions about topics that Intrepid Studios want to hear your thoughts on. This is less about asking us questions, and more about us asking YOU the questions! If you do have questions about Ashes of Creation, keep an eye our social media channels for our monthly Q&A thread, check out the Ashes of Creation community wiki, or try the #questions channel in Discord!

    In this thread, we’ll be discussing:

    Dev Discussion - Crowd Control
    Crowd Control (CC) are abilities that Interrupt or disable an enemy’s movement. CC breaks are abilities that cancel or stop CC abilities.
    • How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    • How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    • What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

    1. CC An integral part of MMORPGs, the ability to give control in time, or avoid it in time is the main skill of a pvp player. As for pve, in a small group long control allows you to compensate for the lack of healing or the presence in the group of a semi-healer and not a specialized healer. So everyone should have control, but it’s different for everyone. For some it’s a stun, for others it’s a counterspell, hex, disorientation, and so on.
    2.Does everything have to have a break shape, I don't think there should be a universal break button. Here we must proceed from the balance of pvp. But the gap can be completely different.
    For example, a warrior with two hands, a kind of berserker, can break control on himself when he receives X amount of damage once per minute, a priest can be immune to the first control against him once every 3 minutes. A mage can use blink while in control, thereby removing it, a Tank becomes harder while in control, on a ranger, for example, all control lasts half as long, a bard may not have the mechanics of removing control from himself at all, but have a unique skill that removes it in an area around yourself with your allies. And the summoner, for example, has a switchable ability that makes him immune to physical/magic damage when he is in control.
    3. When distributing skills, of course, you need to think, spend them in damage, defense, control, or resistance to control, mobility, flexibility, settling yourself or a group... this is the essence of MMORPG) a character who wants to kill targets effectively in solo PvP , naturally must spend talent on additional control, or improving the existing one. But this will make it less effective when killing a boss that this CC does not affect.

  • The topic is rather complicated and depends on many things in the game, but for me personally, it is rather simple.

    - Every archetype should have some form of hard CC.
    - Every archetype should have >one< universal CC break with appropriate cooldown.
    - I hate CC immunity abilities. Only pure tanks are allowed.
    -  Every consequent CC should have diminished duration time. CC-chains are cancer.

    Everything else and all the details depend on game balance, which is nonexistent at this point in time due to obvious reasons.
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  • LeoTheElderLeoTheElder Member, Alpha Two
    I find myself most in line with a lot of what Voeltz said back on 10/11/24. However, I think the vast majority of comments that discuss class CC skills failed to adequately include the Bard. The great sci/fi fantasy stories of our age talk about the mesmerized tavern crowds. And how bards invoke emotional highs and lows depending on the story line. I see the bard's CC skills to have capture and moral affects. In combat, I could see a bard affecting moral of friends and foes. I would expect a bard character to have, a large aoe for a strong verbal/instrumental CC capture and/or a small verbal/instrumental aoe with an absolute CC capture (if not interrupted). I apologize, I did see the bard showcase but I watched it as an amusing bit talking about a class I would never play. So, my comments may be redundant vis-a-vie AOC planned bard development. It is the forum focus on CC ops and some of Voeltz's remarks that prompted me to add my two cents. Leo Is Out.
  • RazormadnessRazormadness Member, Alpha Two
    1. a. How do you feel about CC;
    CC is fine as long as everyone has access to at least 1 form of CC. However I do not want Ashes to turn into league of CC. Gameplay and PvP shouldn't revolve around CC because then one type will always be OP
    b. CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    Definitely needed but not all types should have it. Balance is always key and same as above, it shouldn't be centered around CC
    2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    Some of the classes should, probably the support classes make sense
    3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
    It depends on the meta really, if there's a meta that shows that having CC is key, then yes otherwise damage would be chosen every time.
  • AvrossAvross Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 17
    1. How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?

    I like them and think they are a vital part to the game. Learning how to properly manage your cc and cc breaks adds complexity, increases the skill celling required to be successful and helps further differentiate players by their competency.

    2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?

    It is fine. But make it unique and plausible. There should be many CC categories and breaks such that the rock-paper-scissors paradigm applies, for example:

    Slow: You move x% slower for y amount of time while in the area. Maybe it's an area of ​​quicksand created by the Mage, and the Ranger would have a break called "pathfinder", which makes him immune to the slowing effects caused by the terrain. Or if the slow is due to a net thrown by the fighter, the rogue could have the "escape artist" break to remove movement-impairing effects from objects.

    Total loss of control: things like sleep, paralyze, polymorph or fear, you can't move and/or do anything, or you are forced to flee. The tank could have "Bravery" and be immune to fear, the Cleric could have "Iron Will" and be immune to the effects of sleep or paralysis.

    Again, each class should have its own way of breaking or to cc specific categories.

    3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

    Interesting. The trade-off would have to be assessed for each type of content.
  • KiirsekrosisKiirsekrosis Member, Alpha Two
    How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
    I really think CC would be great to have in any MMORPG. The issue that many have is implementing it. I have seen where it feels like more of a PVE use case rather than applicable to both PVE and PVP. I think one excellent way to have CC breaks in this MMORPG is to allow "support" roles certain abilities that allow for this or in some non-support roles I think having a specific criteria met in order to CC break would be something to look into as well, such as having your health being reduced to a certain level and allow for a CC break through a passive cooldown depending again on how you build your character.

    How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
    This is something that I would not have the greatest input on but I would like to see better access to some form of CC break for those going for "support" roles even if it means more focused on reducing the time your allies are CC'd or removing certain forms such as speed reduction or health regen etc.

    What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?

    I think depending on the playstyle I would like to have at least one form of CC break on a damage dealer (sort of like a way to have a of chance to save yourself in unfortunate situations) and a good amount of CC on a more support role such as a tank or healer. this can be especially true for PVP as in some games CC can determine if an enemy player gets away or a CC break can mean getting out alive.

    Obviously I don't have as much experience with MMORPGs as others but I have seen both ends of the spectrum where CC is useless in PVP and CC breaks are almost non-existent and its frustrating.
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  • BellucciiBelluccii Member, Alpha Two
    i believe the CC System is best to be left without CC Break.

    if CC and CC Break (especially CC Break) are to be added then yes, each character has their own form of stun. normally for PvP Players you'd have a "stun" being completely different than "Disarm". different durations and purposes. BUT in regards to the CC Break i believe that mechanic would be unfair especially during PvP where CC matters the most.

    if CC Break is to be a thing. i hate to say this but WoW probably has the best application for that. a usable item for CC break that lasts the entire arena for CD. that's where the value of CC Break resides in my opinion.

    yet again, if the team manages to create something new. then testing grounds is fine
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