How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs? How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
CC break does not have to come with skill point allocation necessarily, if you have a look at the best MMO out there, which is something you should do and inspire from most of the time especially when it comes to combat and that is World of Warcraft, there is cc break from Racial and the rest of classes use a Trinket for that, no skill points required and ofk there are other abilities on top of that that can remove certain types of CC. But yes, everyone should have to possibility to break CC(of any kind with a higher CD) and other types with certain abilities with lower CD.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
As AoC is a PVX MMO CC will have priority over damage any day unless you go in an indoor dungeon. So make sure there are enough points to get decent CC and CC removal without losing to much on the damage side.
[*] How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CC and CC breaks are huge factors in all aspects of play. They are the two things that allow for the, "rock paper scissors" mental battle between individuals that could swing a 1v1 in one's favor or, on a much larger scale, change the tide of the battle or give that extra percent of damage on a boss that needs to die while the add is sleep in a corner. CC & CC breaks are fundamentally necessary.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
It is necessary for all classes to have a form of CC break or CC avoidance, but I feel as though not every class needs multiple forms of HARD CC. (Stun, Incap, sleep, etc.) Since AOC promotes combos for CC that Chain into something like a hard CC, that is still fine... but having only 1 form of CC break vs multiple forms of CC on one character creates a frustrating environment due to total loss of a character.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
From a pve prospective, it feels the most optional. It depends on what content the player is doing and if the mobs are able to be CC'ed. Group comp. plays an interesting factor because if we as a party only need 1 or 2 CC's, then damage Amp skills will almost always take precedence over the latter.
From a pvp perspective, 100% necessary to choose CC's breaks and CC over damage. A 3-4 second stun is a long time for a single person in a 1v1. Now add chain CC's, from the same person....you wouldn't be able to do anything but punch your monitor. I believe certain Archetypes such as the cleric or bard should have an external CC break for those chain CC scenarios.
1 to 2 globals can be match deciding, and if we had the tools to control what happens to our characters it makes a world of difference.
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done. In the end, I will still usher those to either the jaws of Ammit or Eternal Paradise.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
This is a tough one to get right, and I appreciate any attempts to improve this aspect of gameplay. I'm not a proponent of CC chains that have no diminishing returns. Like in PvP, or PvE for that that matter, I shouldn't be able to run a chain of stuns on a target without much pushback. CC breaks are the other side of the coin. If I'm playing a class that rewards smart applications of CC, but it can be broken too often, then I don't think I'll be keen to use that ability. It's a delicate problem to solve, but if it swings too far in one direction over the other, then it can get abused really fast. That's just from a player's perspective, though. If we're talking about NPCs/mobs using CC against the player, then you have some more room to play with, and it becomes more about CC durations and their timing.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This is worth testing -- even if people fight against it at first. Make CC feel weak in the early going, but then turn up the dial where it's necessary. I can already imagine the frustration of being the one class without CC breaks while we're tuning the durations of other classes. On the flipside, if everyone has CC breaks, then you run the risk of making CC feel way less satisfying to use.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I like this idea as a concept. But from a DPS perspective, I feel like it could easily turn into a situation where I'm changing my spec to grab one skill over the other. If AoC is allowing easy repecs and/or loadouts at some point in the future, then I wouldn't be too concerned. However, if respecs cost too much, I'm going to avoid trading damage for CC anything 10 out of 10 times, unless I'm in a support role.
Hvernig grĂsurnar myndu grunna ef þær vissu hvernig gamli galturinn Ăľjáðist.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CC and CC breaks is a must have in any MMORPG to get fighting on another level of thinking ahead. In PvP you have to sit in some CCs to get out of more powerful ones later, in PVE you have to study the fight to use the CC break in the most important moment.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I enjoyed the CC breeak system of classic wow, where only certain classes/archetypes could break certain forms of CC. This made some matchups more interesting and group play had another level of cooperation.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
CC and CC breaks are prio #1, damage after. But I think everyone should have some form of CC breaker by default.
I like a combination of active CC break skills and acquiring disable resist % from stats. Some archetypes should have better access to multiple CC breaks than others, while others earn more disable resist % from stats.
I do not think things like Dodge should have immunity, since that compromises the effects of disable resist.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
There should be CC and CC breaks of course. But not every class should have it
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Not every class should have CC break. It depends on general balance of the game and it depends on a class. Every class has its role. For example, mages are glass cannon damage dealers, that's their main role. They must have different types of CC to survive, even deal damage, cast speed usually is not so fast, that's the design. And mages must not have CC breaks, because it becomes unbalanced. Damage, CC, CC breaks in one bottle, that is not right.
Another example - tanks must survive and protect others from damage, thats their role. They must have CC breaks to survive and play their role. This is the key moment for this class.
Healers and buffers should not have neither CC nor CC breaks. These classes are a part of strategy in combat. The party that kills healer first, usually wins.
If you are going to give to all classes CC breaks, this will be a mess.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Again it depends on a class. For mages i would say it is 50% damage/50% CC. For fighters, rogues, archers 70% damage/ 30% CC. Tanks 70% survivability/ 30% CC
So, if you are creating a role play game, there should be roles, and they should differ, one from another
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
It's crucial mechanism that can increase game debth and may be solid addition to builds complexity. I'd say it's almost must have for a good MMO. I also feel it's important to have a variety of different CC - from just movement root to hard non-interruptable stun locks and sleep-like that can be interrupted on taking dmg. (including friendly fire please)
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I would prefer to have it reserved for some subset of archetypes mainly, so it will be rewarding party team up and coordination. In my imagination, I would probably stick most of such abilities to bards and clerics, including some individual/party scoped durational CC immunity granting buffs and give some of self CC break for rogues and maybe rangers and mages if that makes sense. So for example I think that cleric could have durational debuff immutability for whole party as one of super abilities with long cold down, while rogue/ranger/mage could have local on self only. (e.g. allowing breaking one specific condition like stun)
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Sound like a good idea. By rogue example, there could be a serious and viable build choice on going strictly glass canon vs all-arounder possibly better 1v1 build. (or just fitting party composition better) I would just add more debth into this e.g. by forcing some synergy of stats increasing CC chance into the gear so it won't be that easy to change the build ad-hoc, so the decision on choosing the build would matter more in the long term.
Some thoughts:
- I feel CC is an important component to making combat feel engaging, whether in PvE or PvP.
- I think that if everyone is able to apply some form of CC, then everyone should have a CC break to some extent. That said, I don't think everyone should have the same capability in that regard. For example, maybe a rogue can have a 1m CD self target CC break, while a bard could have a 5s CD CC break that can target allies. I think this is important to prevent total homogenization of the archetypes while also allowing for some level of counterplay for everyone.
- I am in favor of having to choose between CC break and damage in the skill tree. I only hope that some PvE encounters encourage encourage taking the CC break, as in some MMOs it can feel like CC breaks are a "PvP spell"
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I think CC adds another dynamic game play element to make the players feel involved in the combat and provide satisfaction in helping defeat an encounter. In my 17 years of WoW the times I remember the most fondly about dungeon crawling, raiding and even adventuring out doors was with people and when we used our CC abilities to manage pulls. As WoW homogenized the game, and reducing difficulty this became less and less needed so no one did it anymore. Then all dungeon runs became speed run zerg fests which were never fun for me, especially since I played the healer. You can over due it, not every pull should require you to make the best use of CC abilities but it should have them sprinkled throughout many situations.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I like it when many classes have different types of CC that goes with that class so it also helps change up what you can control with who you have with you. Also changes how it is done which adds variety and spices things up. I wouldn't say its requirement everyone have one but you could probably fit some sort of CC mechanic for each class and like said I don't expect you to always have to use it but for those situations where it would be fun or make sense or help out.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I don't like the idea of having to choose for CC vs damage increase because I think CC should be a basic function you shouldn't have to choose to have or not. Its going to make people feel bad who really wanted something else but know they may need to fill a CC role in a group and don't want to let people down. I prefer choices to allow a character to express how they want to play their class and not have to be peer pressured into something they maybe were not excited about.
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StrytaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
][*] How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I think cc and cc breaks should be a part of the game as well as within game mechanics as well. However I DO NOT BELIEVE that all classes should have cc breaks or cc. If you give all classes the same then the game becomes "hyper balanced" like what WoW did and in my opinion its what killed class identity as well as the potential for uniqueness in character builds.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
No, i think all classes SHOULD NOT have cc breaks and cc. split them up, allow for certain classes to cc or build into cc or allow the potential through crafting or drops for cc/cc breaks youll add for more diversity and uniqueness into characters in the long run.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Make it so CC/CC break is a part of the game but not major. Allow for building into CC and CC breaking. Support classes should have the potential to spec into CC and CC breaks. Heavier classes like warrior and tanks can spec into resist and reduction etc. Since there will be a lot of grinding for resources being a crafting heavy game i think ashes should allow for builds around cc and things like. Imagine a mage speced into AOE CC for mob grinding, you can balance this by the other talents giving more damage into normal AOE and direct damage..
PLEASE get away from %s it makes for more of a generalized or cheaper development. Damage numbers are better, they allow for more change, and a less hyper balanced end game. What do i mean? Imagine you CC a mob for 2 seconds then a talent increases that another +2 seconds. Ashes i think is trying to go the route of "spell does 2 sec of stun" talents do "increase cc by 10%" in my opinion this is gross to see. it feels lazy and generalized. it kills the potential for min/maxing, uniqueness and eventually youll lose that "ive seen someone do something new" in the later game
DO NOT HYPER BALANCE. Hyper balancing kills class identity, uniqueness in build as well as much more.
I really think everyone is overthinking CC and CC break. CC and CC break should be a utility like a grenade in a FPS. You shouldn't strictly have to rely on CC to win a fight. Your shooting should first determine whether or not you win a fight. In other games, such as WoW at a high level, you must be able to CC in PVP and it is literally the only reason you will win a fight or not. That I think just should not be the case. CC should be like a grenade, if you land the grenade appropriately it can be effective and that is it. CC (in PvP) should only be effective when the whole pvp group is coordinated in consecutively landing CC on a single target. Otherwise, perhaps scale the CC timings according to the group size. Making CC too strong will turn the game into WoW pvp which is very dull. It's fun at times but at a high level Dull.
I personally feel like hard CC belongs to mage types (sleep), fighter types (stun), and ranger types (snare). I don't feel like every single class needs to have hard CC. A cleric, or a rogue, shouldn't have a form of hard CC (in my opinion) because it thematically doesn't make as much sense - games generally do a good job of fitting the CC into the theme, but only because we've all accepted that every rogue must use a poison-based stun or a cleric's holy light somehow dazes enemies for 1.3 seconds. It feels like it's created its own permanent corner of every class in every MMO in such a way that players are forced to slot their CC breaks in or else be unable to play the game. Soft CC like slows aren't as bad, but you still find so many mainstream games stretching the limits of a class's theme just to include a bit of frost or vines or SOMEthing that can slow. Rather than focusing on whether every class should have CC breaks, I'd like to see a game that gives 1/3 of its classes hard CC and then see how often players are actually slotting a QSS ability.
I think all base archetypes should have unique CC specializations that are short in duration but can be specialized with CC related gear/skill points that extend the duration and potency of CC's at the cost of DPS and tankiness. on-theme Subclasses like Enchanter should have specialized hard CC abilities like single target Charm/Sleep and mass confusions/fears. There should also be hybrid classes that have softer CC abilities that compliment their DPS output such as flinching chance/knockback on certain abilities to allow juggling players who don't know how to dodge/block. Basically, there should be a gradient whereby specialized PvP/PvE subclasses with low DPS/Tank/Healing output can have high CC potential, whereas subclasses/abilities that have higher DPS/Tank/Healer potential have less CC potential relative to how intrenched the ability is in other roles. As for CC breaks, every class should have CC break abilities but each class should be weak to one or multiple types of CC.
I want CC to be frequent in PvP and for it to be important to have mastery over it. Different types of CC and most importantly, a class focused on CC and damage (Class that clearly have more CC than others but harder to play as well). Being able to Spec your skills/build in CC is also a important thing
Hello Devs, CCs Are a important mechanic in the game, i do believe you should bĂŞ able to "Combo" CC if the target already run out of CC break. A damage dealer Specialized in CC and a support Class also focused on CC are needed in the game. Similar to the rogue in Wow, Duskblade in perfect world and other big mmos
I definitely do not think every class should have CC and CC breaks. CC abilities should be restricted to a small number of classes. Maybe have one class (rogue probably) with a big bag of CC abilities, and a couple others that have limited CC. Then have a couple classes that have CC breaks.
I just watched Vlhadus' vid on this topic, and he pretty much nailed the way I feel about this. Giving every class a CC and CC break is like giving every class the rez ability. It's s a horrible idea. It leads to the homogenization of classes, which is one of the main things causing the decline of MMOs.
Sure, every class wants to feel super powerful, they all want to be able to do everything. But IS needs to exercise restraint in giving all classes all abilities. Every class should have certain things that they are very strong with, but should also all have gaps and WEAKNESSES that can be filled by other classes.
CC is no different. It needs to be limited. Some classes have them, not all. Some classes have CC breaks, not all.
1- CC breaks must be few while CC should be more, (You can have skill to prevent get under CC, a imune period against certain s type of CC) but leave a CC pressing a button should be a rare recourse. I think for example a skill to disarm the opponent shouldn't be stopped by a cc break, since it won't limitate your movements and only stop some skills that require a weapon equipped or even decrease the damage dealt by the player because he no more have weapons equipped for a short period of time.
2- As mentioned in a previous post here about the class that should have more CCs, there are plenty of players that prefer play with cc combos to kill instead of big damages, a class that need keep fighting and using CC to survive is interesting and needed. Also some support players like to play only to annoy the enemy trying to stop them, CCs must be a relevant option in the skill tree for build it.
3- Inspirations of gameplay that suits that: Rogue (Wow) Viego (league) Spear and rapier build NW (poorly done by NW, ended up being too slow) Duskblade (Perfect World)
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CC is an integral part of any game and is very important for balancing offence and defence of classes. Imo stuns and other hard CC should be very scare and should have some required setup (combination of classes layering lower grade CCs to make it stronger) and/or needed to be aimed (no click on target to apply the CC). I would focus more on debuffs such as lowering attack/casting speed, increased dmg taken, decreased dmg dealt etc. It should be very hard to lock down a target completely, not because of diminishing returns, but because it should be hard to set up a hard CC. CCs that break on touch is generally bad since in large scale battles, it wont be possible to control it and in solo settings it makes the classes that can do them way too strong (one of the reasons mages are always top tier in WoW PvP).
Overall, I'm not a particularly big fan of CC breaks such as trinkets in wow but I do believe that there is a place for it in games such as WoW where the amount of hard CC is high. I like more the take that BDO has where you can prevent CC from affecting you by using different "armor"-abilities to gain resistances/immunities to certain kinds of CC, e.g. "Super armor" gives full CC immunity, "forward guard" that block all cc from the front or "knockdown" resistance that give either chance to resist CC or lowers the effect/time of the CC. This gives more expression to player skill and experience and also gives more room for more small mistakes (rather than one big if you use your trinket too early). Usually these skills have second effects as well such as dmg or movement speed increases, making you decide between to use it as a defensive skill or offensive one.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Some form is ok, but not all classes should for example have a basic CC such as a slow. Slow mechanics can be interesting in many ways but in games like WoW where you can basically spam slows on targets just makes the game slower and worse to play.
I think the way the game is set up at this point where all classes can in some way ad a small CC on a target which can then be upgraded through another player is very good and the game should continue in this direction, just be careful to not give too much CC power to one archetype or having a special type of CC unique to each class (disarm for rouges, slows for mage, silence for bards, cripple for rangers, taunts for tanks, etc) but that might might not be fun, just spit-balling here.
CC breaks/armors should not be for all classes, mostly melee classes that needs to stick to targets.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I don't believe it is a good choice to make players choose between CC breaks/CC/damage abilities, rather bake everything into one ability (as stated above) and then let the player choose how to use it, depending on the situation. An ability tree should imo change the flavour of the class, not change the way you play it.
I definitely do not think every class should have CC and CC breaks. CC abilities should be restricted to a small number of classes. Maybe have one class (rogue probably) with a big bag of CC abilities, and a couple others that have limited CC. Then have a couple classes that have CC breaks.
I agree with this. Bard and Rogue should be the two primary archetypes most focused on CC and then how much CC they have depends on their secondary - with augments that tweak core skills to be more controll heavy. Secondary /rogue or /tank could delve more into CC. Particularly /tank because CC is one of the ways to 'tank' without taking away from the primary tank role of absorbing damage.
I bring this up over and over again how the Mesmer in GW1 was, effectively, the tank in that game as Warriors had no way to gain aggro and mobs purposefully went for enemies with lower Armour. Mesmers used debuffs and crowd control to protect the party.
Bard/Tank (Siren) would in my view be the most similar playstyle to that.
CC against players is not fun. Losing control of my character is not fun. Being stunned for 1 second is not fun. Interrupts are fine, so long as I don't lose complete control of my character.
Choosing between CC and damage is not really fun. As a dps class, your focus is on damage, but not having CC when you need it can also be bad, and t hus not fun.
CC vs mobs is great and adds a layer of strategy without making a player feel bad by having no control.
If CC exists, every class should have a way to break it, because (repeating myself) being stuck in a crowd-controlled state is absolutely not fun. The break should also apply a very short immunity.
Just wanted to comment on this. The point of cc is different for everyone. Like in pvp, ranged classes might uses cc to gain distance, and other classes may use cc to stop them from kiting, some may use cc to stop a person from healing a party member, or use cc to stop a tank from grabbing aggro. The point is, if you don't have any hard ccs, then the whole thing kinda falls apart at the seams, because healers can still heal, and tanks can still aggro pull.
1. How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
This requires two answer from two sides: As the Caster and as the Target.
As the Caster, how do I feel about casting CC spells/abilities/skills but also how do I feel about my target(s) having CC breaks? First, CC is a very enjoyable element to a game that requires both planned strategy and improvisation and adaptation to fighting scenarios and environments. It can turn the tide at the right moment both in PvE but also PvP situations.
I won't delve into PvE as this can be handled with minor tweaks and updates to increase/decrease their resistance/immunity to CCs throughout the development and lifespan of Ashes. However, it is important to build upon an original treatment regarding CC and CC breaks in PvP so that players have an expectation of how the game treats these elements.
So as the Caster, I feel that CC is a great way to provide defensive, offensive, and utility function to combat situations - especially with Ashes having a strong focus on territory control and disputes, caravan attacks, etc. To not have any CC at all would turn every fight into a slog fest of who can out damage or out heal each other. It also minimizes both class diversity and playstyle diversity. But how do I feel about CC breaks? It is frustrating to see CC skill after CC skill get nullified because other players may be spamming CC against a single opponent or too many players are attempting AoE CC in the same area - this is where strategy and communication need to be considered so as to not negate each others abilities. But what if I am a squishy Wizard who has just cast a CC spell against a Fighter who uses a CC break to close the distance, should they be temporarily immune of other CC abilities? Should I be able to use (if available) other CC abilities to help create distance for myself just after they use their break? This is a very back and forth conversation to find a balance in.
But how do I feel as the Target about CC and CC breaks? As many of us have experienced, there is nothing more infuriating than being CC spamlocked into oblivion until we get killed - it ruins any amount of joy but also immersion. When in a battle, especially the bigger they get (30, 40, 50+) it becomes visually confusing to identify when a caster may be attempting to CC myself or the area I am in - so to become CC locked for multiple seconds or worse becomes discouraging to play against, and nobody wants to feel that powerless. I, as the Target, would want to have both CC break(s) available but also some form of temporary immunity or resistance to CC for a time so that I may actually be able to enjoy my playstyle whether I am defensive, offensive, or utility on the battlefield.
So this is what it comes down to (in my opinion): To create a balance between Caster and Target, CC and CC breaks need to have a Ying and Yang rhythm to them. Casters should feel like their CC spells matter, but also should understand that they need to balance their own use of them with their team against a single or multiple opponents. The Target should be able to feel like their use of CC breaks is worthwhile and powerful, but also they simply should be able to play the game as intended without being disheartened - however, they should also understand they can't expect to play overly aggressive or overconfident charging into 10+ opponents by themselves without some kind of repercussions.
What does this mean for an answer? Simply put, I don't have an answer - and I don't think anyone will have one that marks off all the boxes, its simply not possible. However, this would be my take on the right balance: All classes should have CC available both in single and multi target/AoE, talents/modifications to skills could alter said abilities to either include more targets, increase duration, enlarge area, etc. Some classes should have more of a particular type then others as to help with diversity (example: fighters and rogues having more single target while Mages and Summoners have more multi target/AoE).
2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Coming straight out of my answer from question 1, this is my follow up:
All classes should have some form of CC break for themselves, while other more traditional supportive roles/classes should also have CC breaks available for teammates that could also be single target/multi/AoE. Because of a larger amount of readily available CC breaks across all classes, resistance/immunity should not apply if used or received - however, a player should receive a form of stacking resistance if they continue to be CC'd and having no CC break applied to themself (this would be the one part of CC that would require adjustments via updates to balance).
But in this scenario (if the above is used), CC breaks should be on longer cooldowns then CC abilities (in most cases unless a player puts more talent/proficiency points into said ability/abilities).
3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I think this is totally a personal preference and comes down to how you wish to play. Obviously, if all players in a PvP group were to decide on CC skills there wouldn't be nearly enough damage output to take out the other team. Again, its a Ying and Yang balance of CC to damage.
For me, depends on what class I am and what my role is in my team. I might be a Fighter, but who's to say that I don't have more invested in abilities to charge and prevent opponents from escaping thus allowing my teammate Rogue to do the damage. Or if I am a Summoner who waits till my Cleric groupmate locks an enemy in place and I dish out some damage.
But I digress, I believe choice matters and if a player wishes to prioritize CC then they might lose out on raw damage output, and vice versa, but if someone wants a bit of both then they may not have complete dominance in either but can hold their own with a mix of CC and damage.
- How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CC is extremely critical to pvp because you need to be able to lock down targets to kill them, CC is essentially the 'objective within the objective' of pvp because its what you play around to get wins, so having some counterplay to it is good too.
I think one thing ashes is missing in the cc bag is traditional interrupts that lock out spell schools, but don't purely cause loss of character control. I believe this is a nice form of 'control' that has clear counterplay (fake casting), just something to consider. If not I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on why you're against traditional interrupts.
- How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This is essentially taking the wow 'trinket' approach, where every class can use a trinket to break cc. The difference seems to be that in Ashes, cc breaks are extremely short cd. For example - Mage's blink is a 15s cd currently, which is standard, but if it breaks 'all' cc as well with the talent, then its far too powerful.
The solution is to use an internal cooldown specifically for the 'all' cc break. I think a similar line of thinking should follow for other full cc breaks with other archetypes. You could however, make an argument for Tank having more access to cc breaks.
- What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
If you're planning to ever pvp at all, you would literally always take the cc break talents currently. Particularly if they stay similarly low cd with no internal cd, there's simply too much counterplay and freedom involved.
This is partially because of the way diminishing returns is implemented currently. I think the way you guys are handling diminishing returns is quite good, but if cc breaks are this short cd then you would have a hard time ever locking anyone down. Which creates balls/math war type of gameplay.
In terms of more cc vs damage, its nuanced. A lot of the game's most powerful cc seems to be playing off one another's status effects.
I could see certain 'setup' builds that focus on making other cc more powerful being useful.
Instead of answering the questions like I usually do, this time I instead would like to describe the best solution/approach to this that I've experienced so far, and in addition adding some things I would also do/change for my personal taste
The best approach I've seen was a general CC break skill, for every class it was the same. Everybody had this skill and it was scaling with the character stats such as cast speed and cooldown reduction.
The overall cooldown of the skill was fairly high, the exact number does not matter imo since I think long/short cooldown definition depends on the game.
The skill was only usable while being CCed and using it had a little animation lock for yourself as well. So it was most useful when you were CCed by a longer effect.
In addition to all this, the skill was not usable on all types of CC. For example sleep, fear, debuffs such as slow and poison and other typed of basically "magic" CC were not breakable this way.
However, in combination with the following it's the reason why I think it's the best solution: For the other CC types like sleep etc, you could get saved by your supporter with a classic cleanse. So the CC break worked for basically half the CC types and the cleanse for the other half.
This worked in my eyes perfectly for making both PvE and PvP interesting and balancing stuff out while still making stuff challanging and with enough diminishing returns.
I personally would improve this for my taste by adding a little CC immunity buff being triggered when using the CC break. I would also add a type of CC that is not breakable/cleansable. This strong type of CC I would only hand out to things like bosses and Tanks maybe.
Also making the skill a general skill for everybody, making it so it doesn't require skill points to be spent on it while also scaling with typical squishy class stats such as cooldown reduction can help with balancing imo
I really appreciate the approach of putting CC in different categories like explained in the stream already. I'm just not sure yet about the CC immunity for different categories being the best solution for my personal taste but I will do some testing on that during the A2
Labeling some of the stuff as status effects instead of CC and alike would probably be my idea, but yea will just give feedback on that in case it's being asked about again during A2
In my opinion being "out of position" and being aware where you are should be the Nr.1 Player skill. So i dislike cc break. For PvP skills if there is CC break its a must have same with CC in any form. Granted i prefer the Dota2 game play over LoL.
I wrote a whole 1 page paper then had ChatGPT condense it for clarity and focus my points.
Thoughts on Crowd Control (CC) and CC Breaks in MMORPGs
PvP Perspective:
In PvP, crowd control (CC) is fine as long as it isn’t overwhelming and there’s variety in the types of CC available. For example, in EverQuest, the Necromancer’s "Clinging Darkness" slowed movement, dealt damage over time, and reduced visibility. Effective CC should offer counterplay options. For instance, when snared, a player could use a movement ability to gain range or close the gap; while rooted, they might activate a buff for better defense. Stuns shouldn’t last more than 15% of the time-to-kill (TTK) to keep fights fair, and effects like sleep should break on damage. Additionally, healers or support characters should have the ability to cleanse CC.
PvE Perspective:
In PvE, CC can last longer, giving support classes more to do. Bards, clerics, or other support roles could have abilities to counter CC, providing them with more meaningful engagement. Tanks should also have their own CC break abilities, as they’re designed to take hits and keep going, protecting their allies.
Archetypes and CC Breaks in Ashes of Creation:
Given the current fast TTK in Ashes of Creation, having CC breaks for all archetypes feels necessary. With a TTK of around 10–30 seconds for equal-level, equal-gear combat, a 4-second stun could take up to 40% of a 10-second fight. In group fights, this could turn into a 1–2 second TTK if everyone focuses on the same target. Players tend to seek an advantage in fights, and this will likely lead to rapid target vaporization.
Ideally, I would prefer a much longer TTK in the range of 1–2 minutes for 1v1 encounters. This would make CC impactful without being overly punishing. A 4–6 second stun, 10-second root, or 30-second snare would be significant, but not crippling. A longer TTK would also reduce the need for every class to have a CC break and make support roles more meaningful in both PvP and PvE by allowing them to assist with CC breaks. This would increase the skill ceiling without raising the skill floor too much, promoting strategic use of CC breaks and counterplay in group fights. With longer TTK, teams would have more time to react to focus fire without seeing a group member instantly eliminated.
CC or Damage When Allocating Skill Points:
When choosing between CC, CC breaks, or damage for skill points, most players (except tanks) would likely choose one CC break and invest the rest in CC. The reasoning is simple: you don’t need a CC break if your enemy is constantly CC’d. This thought process mirrors the current meta in WoW Classic servers, where high DPS is prioritized over everything else. The logic is to reduce the boss's lifespan as much as possible, often leading to trading support roles for more DPS.
The same thinking will apply to PvP. If you can lock down an enemy with CC, you’ll reduce incoming damage and CC. If you opt for multiple CC breaks, they’ll likely be exhausted within the first few seconds of a PvP fight. In PvE, players will be more forgiving and likely invest in at least one CC break.
1- CCs is a must in the gameplay, otherwise the pvp will become who can burst damage faster. The key thing is that different kinds of Ccs are necessary such as: Disarm, sleep, hard stun (cannot be avoided) and more. CC breaks: You should be able to prevent get under cc sometimes with a skill for a certain period of time but LEAVE or break a CC should be a rare recourse.
3- Have a option to choose CCs as play style using the skill tree is necessary. Different archetypes should have different amount of CC and CC breaks. For example a rogue need have more CCs, maybe the summoner as well. Specific archetypes like Duelist or bard variations should have more CCs to be useful and increase the survivilance time, some classes need be able to kill stoping the target instead of massive damages.
Hot take: A rogue give up in his full time invisibility skill to choose more CCs and mobility is cool and completely change the play style ( In the place a short invisibility like 5-8 seconds would be enough)
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
Important for Small-medium sized combat, can get insanely infuriating in mass PvP.
Especially when it comes to Hard-CC {Stuns for example}.
I think using CC in a smart way (Both in PvP and PvE) is the first step that differentiates beginners from experienced players.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This entirely depends on how much CC you introduce into the game, and how *easy* it is to dodge the said cc.
(Dodge in the form of eye-frames, dashes etc.). If there is counterplay or prevention, there is not a need for every class to have it. (Bards and Clerics are the main contenders.)
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Two points:
1. Specifically for SELF CC BREAKS
Feels bad, i think the choice should be between CC break and another CC break
(Ex. Pro active CC break like a CC break with charges that makes you immune to next 2-3 that are applied, reactive cc break, or passive %-centual *cc break* that reduces the duration of all cc's.)
2. Specifically for CC breaks for others and or area of effect ones from support/healers classes:
Can cost you *other utility* skill-points. Or Possibly acquired from titles/achievements/ or PvP achievements.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CC is an important defensive element, especially for classes with relatively weak defenses. It should be balanced with other defenses for a class.
CC Break is a powerful offensive element. Will there be other abilities that allow classes to completely neutralize elements of an opponent's defenses? CC Break should be balanced with other offensive capabilities, or not used.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I feel that every class having a CC Break will either become a huge disadvantage or vulnerability to classes which depend on CC for defense. Will every class have an ability that completely neutralizes elements of an opponent's defenses? CC Break should be balanced with other offensive capabilities, or not used.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
CC should be balanced with defensive abilities. CC Break should be balanced with offensive abilities. Limitations of skill point allocation are an effective means of enforcing balance.
Additional info:
I would greatly prefer a system that enforces rapidly diminishing returns on CC, rather than a CC/CC Break mini-game. Diminishing returns is the most equitable system I've played in to prevent locking an opponent indefinitely. A CC/CC Break mini-game will be heavily influenced by numbers; the biggest zerg will always win the mini-game, often resulting in complete loss of agency by the smaller group.
Losing agency of your character is extremely frustrating. Character death is often preferable to loss of control.
In regards to cc, I think all classes should have a cc specific to them with melee having ones that are longer, to stop someone from running away, and ranged should be shorter, to give them a chance to get some distance. This will help differentiate the classes.
For cc breaks, I think all classes should have a cc break that, I know it will be controversial, is spammable. To prevent abuse it should have a few mechanics in place. It have a 1/4 sec animation that interrupts attacks and delays skill cooldowns by 1/4 sec as well. It will also do no damage. This will give players the chance to stop stunlocks from being a concern, to keep player agency, but will only allow them to stop the cc and not just macro spam it and be unstoppable.
Comments
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
CC break does not have to come with skill point allocation necessarily, if you have a look at the best MMO out there, which is something you should do and inspire from most of the time especially when it comes to combat and that is World of Warcraft, there is cc break from Racial and the rest of classes use a Trinket for that, no skill points required and ofk there are other abilities on top of that that can remove certain types of CC. But yes, everyone should have to possibility to break CC(of any kind with a higher CD) and other types with certain abilities with lower CD.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
As AoC is a PVX MMO CC will have priority over damage any day unless you go in an indoor dungeon. So make sure there are enough points to get decent CC and CC removal without losing to much on the damage side.
CC and CC breaks are huge factors in all aspects of play. They are the two things that allow for the, "rock paper scissors" mental battle between individuals that could swing a 1v1 in one's favor or, on a much larger scale, change the tide of the battle or give that extra percent of damage on a boss that needs to die while the add is sleep in a corner. CC & CC breaks are fundamentally necessary.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
It is necessary for all classes to have a form of CC break or CC avoidance, but I feel as though not every class needs multiple forms of HARD CC. (Stun, Incap, sleep, etc.) Since AOC promotes combos for CC that Chain into something like a hard CC, that is still fine... but having only 1 form of CC break vs multiple forms of CC on one character creates a frustrating environment due to total loss of a character.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
From a pve prospective, it feels the most optional. It depends on what content the player is doing and if the mobs are able to be CC'ed. Group comp. plays an interesting factor because if we as a party only need 1 or 2 CC's, then damage Amp skills will almost always take precedence over the latter.
From a pvp perspective, 100% necessary to choose CC's breaks and CC over damage. A 3-4 second stun is a long time for a single person in a 1v1. Now add chain CC's, from the same person....you wouldn't be able to do anything but punch your monitor. I believe certain Archetypes such as the cleric or bard should have an external CC break for those chain CC scenarios.
1 to 2 globals can be match deciding, and if we had the tools to control what happens to our characters it makes a world of difference.
This is a tough one to get right, and I appreciate any attempts to improve this aspect of gameplay. I'm not a proponent of CC chains that have no diminishing returns. Like in PvP, or PvE for that that matter, I shouldn't be able to run a chain of stuns on a target without much pushback. CC breaks are the other side of the coin. If I'm playing a class that rewards smart applications of CC, but it can be broken too often, then I don't think I'll be keen to use that ability. It's a delicate problem to solve, but if it swings too far in one direction over the other, then it can get abused really fast. That's just from a player's perspective, though. If we're talking about NPCs/mobs using CC against the player, then you have some more room to play with, and it becomes more about CC durations and their timing.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This is worth testing -- even if people fight against it at first. Make CC feel weak in the early going, but then turn up the dial where it's necessary. I can already imagine the frustration of being the one class without CC breaks while we're tuning the durations of other classes. On the flipside, if everyone has CC breaks, then you run the risk of making CC feel way less satisfying to use.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I like this idea as a concept. But from a DPS perspective, I feel like it could easily turn into a situation where I'm changing my spec to grab one skill over the other. If AoC is allowing easy repecs and/or loadouts at some point in the future, then I wouldn't be too concerned. However, if respecs cost too much, I'm going to avoid trading damage for CC anything 10 out of 10 times, unless I'm in a support role.
CC and CC breaks is a must have in any MMORPG to get fighting on another level of thinking ahead. In PvP you have to sit in some CCs to get out of more powerful ones later, in PVE you have to study the fight to use the CC break in the most important moment.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I enjoyed the CC breeak system of classic wow, where only certain classes/archetypes could break certain forms of CC. This made some matchups more interesting and group play had another level of cooperation.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
CC and CC breaks are prio #1, damage after. But I think everyone should have some form of CC breaker by default.
I do not think things like Dodge should have immunity, since that compromises the effects of disable resist.
Makes the game fun.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Is is mandatory having some CC and CC breaks, but the player should decise if the buid will have anything.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I like Guild Wars 2 on this, also saving my builds and changing the build as many times a day I want is just amazing.
There should be CC and CC breaks of course. But not every class should have it
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Not every class should have CC break. It depends on general balance of the game and it depends on a class. Every class has its role. For example, mages are glass cannon damage dealers, that's their main role. They must have different types of CC to survive, even deal damage, cast speed usually is not so fast, that's the design. And mages must not have CC breaks, because it becomes unbalanced. Damage, CC, CC breaks in one bottle, that is not right.
Another example - tanks must survive and protect others from damage, thats their role. They must have CC breaks to survive and play their role. This is the key moment for this class.
Healers and buffers should not have neither CC nor CC breaks. These classes are a part of strategy in combat. The party that kills healer first, usually wins.
If you are going to give to all classes CC breaks, this will be a mess.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Again it depends on a class. For mages i would say it is 50% damage/50% CC. For fighters, rogues, archers 70% damage/ 30% CC. Tanks 70% survivability/ 30% CC
So, if you are creating a role play game, there should be roles, and they should differ, one from another
It's crucial mechanism that can increase game debth and may be solid addition to builds complexity. I'd say it's almost must have for a good MMO. I also feel it's important to have a variety of different CC - from just movement root to hard non-interruptable stun locks and sleep-like that can be interrupted on taking dmg. (including friendly fire please)
I would prefer to have it reserved for some subset of archetypes mainly, so it will be rewarding party team up and coordination. In my imagination, I would probably stick most of such abilities to bards and clerics, including some individual/party scoped durational CC immunity granting buffs and give some of self CC break for rogues and maybe rangers and mages if that makes sense. So for example I think that cleric could have durational debuff immutability for whole party as one of super abilities with long cold down, while rogue/ranger/mage could have local on self only. (e.g. allowing breaking one specific condition like stun)
Sound like a good idea. By rogue example, there could be a serious and viable build choice on going strictly glass canon vs all-arounder possibly better 1v1 build. (or just fitting party composition better) I would just add more debth into this e.g. by forcing some synergy of stats increasing CC chance into the gear so it won't be that easy to change the build ad-hoc, so the decision on choosing the build would matter more in the long term.
- I feel CC is an important component to making combat feel engaging, whether in PvE or PvP.
- I think that if everyone is able to apply some form of CC, then everyone should have a CC break to some extent. That said, I don't think everyone should have the same capability in that regard. For example, maybe a rogue can have a 1m CD self target CC break, while a bard could have a 5s CD CC break that can target allies. I think this is important to prevent total homogenization of the archetypes while also allowing for some level of counterplay for everyone.
- I am in favor of having to choose between CC break and damage in the skill tree. I only hope that some PvE encounters encourage encourage taking the CC break, as in some MMOs it can feel like CC breaks are a "PvP spell"
I think CC adds another dynamic game play element to make the players feel involved in the combat and provide satisfaction in helping defeat an encounter. In my 17 years of WoW the times I remember the most fondly about dungeon crawling, raiding and even adventuring out doors was with people and when we used our CC abilities to manage pulls. As WoW homogenized the game, and reducing difficulty this became less and less needed so no one did it anymore. Then all dungeon runs became speed run zerg fests which were never fun for me, especially since I played the healer. You can over due it, not every pull should require you to make the best use of CC abilities but it should have them sprinkled throughout many situations.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I like it when many classes have different types of CC that goes with that class so it also helps change up what you can control with who you have with you. Also changes how it is done which adds variety and spices things up. I wouldn't say its requirement everyone have one but you could probably fit some sort of CC mechanic for each class and like said I don't expect you to always have to use it but for those situations where it would be fun or make sense or help out.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I don't like the idea of having to choose for CC vs damage increase because I think CC should be a basic function you shouldn't have to choose to have or not. Its going to make people feel bad who really wanted something else but know they may need to fill a CC role in a group and don't want to let people down. I prefer choices to allow a character to express how they want to play their class and not have to be peer pressured into something they maybe were not excited about.
I think cc and cc breaks should be a part of the game as well as within game mechanics as well. However I DO NOT BELIEVE that all classes should have cc breaks or cc. If you give all classes the same then the game becomes "hyper balanced" like what WoW did and in my opinion its what killed class identity as well as the potential for uniqueness in character builds.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
No, i think all classes SHOULD NOT have cc breaks and cc. split them up, allow for certain classes to cc or build into cc or allow the potential through crafting or drops for cc/cc breaks youll add for more diversity and uniqueness into characters in the long run.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Make it so CC/CC break is a part of the game but not major. Allow for building into CC and CC breaking. Support classes should have the potential to spec into CC and CC breaks. Heavier classes like warrior and tanks can spec into resist and reduction etc. Since there will be a lot of grinding for resources being a crafting heavy game i think ashes should allow for builds around cc and things like. Imagine a mage speced into AOE CC for mob grinding, you can balance this by the other talents giving more damage into normal AOE and direct damage..
PLEASE get away from %s it makes for more of a generalized or cheaper development. Damage numbers are better, they allow for more change, and a less hyper balanced end game. What do i mean? Imagine you CC a mob for 2 seconds then a talent increases that another +2 seconds. Ashes i think is trying to go the route of "spell does 2 sec of stun" talents do "increase cc by 10%" in my opinion this is gross to see. it feels lazy and generalized. it kills the potential for min/maxing, uniqueness and eventually youll lose that "ive seen someone do something new" in the later game
DO NOT HYPER BALANCE. Hyper balancing kills class identity, uniqueness in build as well as much more.
I just watched Vlhadus' vid on this topic, and he pretty much nailed the way I feel about this. Giving every class a CC and CC break is like giving every class the rez ability. It's s a horrible idea. It leads to the homogenization of classes, which is one of the main things causing the decline of MMOs.
Sure, every class wants to feel super powerful, they all want to be able to do everything. But IS needs to exercise restraint in giving all classes all abilities. Every class should have certain things that they are very strong with, but should also all have gaps and WEAKNESSES that can be filled by other classes.
CC is no different. It needs to be limited. Some classes have them, not all. Some classes have CC breaks, not all.
My 2 cents.
2- As mentioned in a previous post here about the class that should have more CCs, there are plenty of players that prefer play with cc combos to kill instead of big damages, a class that need keep fighting and using CC to survive is interesting and needed. Also some support players like to play only to annoy the enemy trying to stop them, CCs must be a relevant option in the skill tree for build it.
3- Inspirations of gameplay that suits that: Rogue (Wow) Viego (league) Spear and rapier build NW (poorly done by NW, ended up being too slow) Duskblade (Perfect World)
CC is an integral part of any game and is very important for balancing offence and defence of classes. Imo stuns and other hard CC should be very scare and should have some required setup (combination of classes layering lower grade CCs to make it stronger) and/or needed to be aimed (no click on target to apply the CC). I would focus more on debuffs such as lowering attack/casting speed, increased dmg taken, decreased dmg dealt etc. It should be very hard to lock down a target completely, not because of diminishing returns, but because it should be hard to set up a hard CC. CCs that break on touch is generally bad since in large scale battles, it wont be possible to control it and in solo settings it makes the classes that can do them way too strong (one of the reasons mages are always top tier in WoW PvP).
Overall, I'm not a particularly big fan of CC breaks such as trinkets in wow but I do believe that there is a place for it in games such as WoW where the amount of hard CC is high. I like more the take that BDO has where you can prevent CC from affecting you by using different "armor"-abilities to gain resistances/immunities to certain kinds of CC, e.g. "Super armor" gives full CC immunity, "forward guard" that block all cc from the front or "knockdown" resistance that give either chance to resist CC or lowers the effect/time of the CC. This gives more expression to player skill and experience and also gives more room for more small mistakes (rather than one big if you use your trinket too early). Usually these skills have second effects as well such as dmg or movement speed increases, making you decide between to use it as a defensive skill or offensive one.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Some form is ok, but not all classes should for example have a basic CC such as a slow. Slow mechanics can be interesting in many ways but in games like WoW where you can basically spam slows on targets just makes the game slower and worse to play.
I think the way the game is set up at this point where all classes can in some way ad a small CC on a target which can then be upgraded through another player is very good and the game should continue in this direction, just be careful to not give too much CC power to one archetype or having a special type of CC unique to each class (disarm for rouges, slows for mage, silence for bards, cripple for rangers, taunts for tanks, etc) but that might might not be fun, just spit-balling here.
CC breaks/armors should not be for all classes, mostly melee classes that needs to stick to targets.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I don't believe it is a good choice to make players choose between CC breaks/CC/damage abilities, rather bake everything into one ability (as stated above) and then let the player choose how to use it, depending on the situation. An ability tree should imo change the flavour of the class, not change the way you play it.
I agree with this. Bard and Rogue should be the two primary archetypes most focused on CC and then how much CC they have depends on their secondary - with augments that tweak core skills to be more controll heavy. Secondary /rogue or /tank could delve more into CC. Particularly /tank because CC is one of the ways to 'tank' without taking away from the primary tank role of absorbing damage.
I bring this up over and over again how the Mesmer in GW1 was, effectively, the tank in that game as Warriors had no way to gain aggro and mobs purposefully went for enemies with lower Armour. Mesmers used debuffs and crowd control to protect the party.
Bard/Tank (Siren) would in my view be the most similar playstyle to that.
Just wanted to comment on this. The point of cc is different for everyone. Like in pvp, ranged classes might uses cc to gain distance, and other classes may use cc to stop them from kiting, some may use cc to stop a person from healing a party member, or use cc to stop a tank from grabbing aggro. The point is, if you don't have any hard ccs, then the whole thing kinda falls apart at the seams, because healers can still heal, and tanks can still aggro pull.
This requires two answer from two sides: As the Caster and as the Target.
As the Caster, how do I feel about casting CC spells/abilities/skills but also how do I feel about my target(s) having CC breaks? First, CC is a very enjoyable element to a game that requires both planned strategy and improvisation and adaptation to fighting scenarios and environments. It can turn the tide at the right moment both in PvE but also PvP situations.
I won't delve into PvE as this can be handled with minor tweaks and updates to increase/decrease their resistance/immunity to CCs throughout the development and lifespan of Ashes. However, it is important to build upon an original treatment regarding CC and CC breaks in PvP so that players have an expectation of how the game treats these elements.
So as the Caster, I feel that CC is a great way to provide defensive, offensive, and utility function to combat situations - especially with Ashes having a strong focus on territory control and disputes, caravan attacks, etc. To not have any CC at all would turn every fight into a slog fest of who can out damage or out heal each other. It also minimizes both class diversity and playstyle diversity. But how do I feel about CC breaks? It is frustrating to see CC skill after CC skill get nullified because other players may be spamming CC against a single opponent or too many players are attempting AoE CC in the same area - this is where strategy and communication need to be considered so as to not negate each others abilities. But what if I am a squishy Wizard who has just cast a CC spell against a Fighter who uses a CC break to close the distance, should they be temporarily immune of other CC abilities? Should I be able to use (if available) other CC abilities to help create distance for myself just after they use their break? This is a very back and forth conversation to find a balance in.
But how do I feel as the Target about CC and CC breaks? As many of us have experienced, there is nothing more infuriating than being CC spamlocked into oblivion until we get killed - it ruins any amount of joy but also immersion. When in a battle, especially the bigger they get (30, 40, 50+) it becomes visually confusing to identify when a caster may be attempting to CC myself or the area I am in - so to become CC locked for multiple seconds or worse becomes discouraging to play against, and nobody wants to feel that powerless. I, as the Target, would want to have both CC break(s) available but also some form of temporary immunity or resistance to CC for a time so that I may actually be able to enjoy my playstyle whether I am defensive, offensive, or utility on the battlefield.
So this is what it comes down to (in my opinion): To create a balance between Caster and Target, CC and CC breaks need to have a Ying and Yang rhythm to them. Casters should feel like their CC spells matter, but also should understand that they need to balance their own use of them with their team against a single or multiple opponents. The Target should be able to feel like their use of CC breaks is worthwhile and powerful, but also they simply should be able to play the game as intended without being disheartened - however, they should also understand they can't expect to play overly aggressive or overconfident charging into 10+ opponents by themselves without some kind of repercussions.
What does this mean for an answer? Simply put, I don't have an answer - and I don't think anyone will have one that marks off all the boxes, its simply not possible. However, this would be my take on the right balance: All classes should have CC available both in single and multi target/AoE, talents/modifications to skills could alter said abilities to either include more targets, increase duration, enlarge area, etc. Some classes should have more of a particular type then others as to help with diversity (example: fighters and rogues having more single target while Mages and Summoners have more multi target/AoE).
2. How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Coming straight out of my answer from question 1, this is my follow up:
All classes should have some form of CC break for themselves, while other more traditional supportive roles/classes should also have CC breaks available for teammates that could also be single target/multi/AoE. Because of a larger amount of readily available CC breaks across all classes, resistance/immunity should not apply if used or received - however, a player should receive a form of stacking resistance if they continue to be CC'd and having no CC break applied to themself (this would be the one part of CC that would require adjustments via updates to balance).
But in this scenario (if the above is used), CC breaks should be on longer cooldowns then CC abilities (in most cases unless a player puts more talent/proficiency points into said ability/abilities).
3. What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
I think this is totally a personal preference and comes down to how you wish to play. Obviously, if all players in a PvP group were to decide on CC skills there wouldn't be nearly enough damage output to take out the other team. Again, its a Ying and Yang balance of CC to damage.
For me, depends on what class I am and what my role is in my team. I might be a Fighter, but who's to say that I don't have more invested in abilities to charge and prevent opponents from escaping thus allowing my teammate Rogue to do the damage. Or if I am a Summoner who waits till my Cleric groupmate locks an enemy in place and I dish out some damage.
But I digress, I believe choice matters and if a player wishes to prioritize CC then they might lose out on raw damage output, and vice versa, but if someone wants a bit of both then they may not have complete dominance in either but can hold their own with a mix of CC and damage.
CC is extremely critical to pvp because you need to be able to lock down targets to kill them, CC is essentially the 'objective within the objective' of pvp because its what you play around to get wins, so having some counterplay to it is good too.
I think one thing ashes is missing in the cc bag is traditional interrupts that lock out spell schools, but don't purely cause loss of character control. I believe this is a nice form of 'control' that has clear counterplay (fake casting), just something to consider. If not I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on why you're against traditional interrupts.
- How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This is essentially taking the wow 'trinket' approach, where every class can use a trinket to break cc. The difference seems to be that in Ashes, cc breaks are extremely short cd. For example - Mage's blink is a 15s cd currently, which is standard, but if it breaks 'all' cc as well with the talent, then its far too powerful.
The solution is to use an internal cooldown specifically for the 'all' cc break. I think a similar line of thinking should follow for other full cc breaks with other archetypes. You could however, make an argument for Tank having more access to cc breaks.
- What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
If you're planning to ever pvp at all, you would literally always take the cc break talents currently. Particularly if they stay similarly low cd with no internal cd, there's simply too much counterplay and freedom involved.
This is partially because of the way diminishing returns is implemented currently. I think the way you guys are handling diminishing returns is quite good, but if cc breaks are this short cd then you would have a hard time ever locking anyone down. Which creates balls/math war type of gameplay.
In terms of more cc vs damage, its nuanced. A lot of the game's most powerful cc seems to be playing off one another's status effects.
I could see certain 'setup' builds that focus on making other cc more powerful being useful.
The best approach I've seen was a general CC break skill, for every class it was the same. Everybody had this skill and it was scaling with the character stats such as cast speed and cooldown reduction.
The overall cooldown of the skill was fairly high, the exact number does not matter imo since I think long/short cooldown definition depends on the game.
The skill was only usable while being CCed and using it had a little animation lock for yourself as well. So it was most useful when you were CCed by a longer effect.
In addition to all this, the skill was not usable on all types of CC. For example sleep, fear, debuffs such as slow and poison and other typed of basically "magic" CC were not breakable this way.
However, in combination with the following it's the reason why I think it's the best solution: For the other CC types like sleep etc, you could get saved by your supporter with a classic cleanse. So the CC break worked for basically half the CC types and the cleanse for the other half.
This worked in my eyes perfectly for making both PvE and PvP interesting and balancing stuff out while still making stuff challanging and with enough diminishing returns.
I personally would improve this for my taste by adding a little CC immunity buff being triggered when using the CC break. I would also add a type of CC that is not breakable/cleansable. This strong type of CC I would only hand out to things like bosses and Tanks maybe.
Also making the skill a general skill for everybody, making it so it doesn't require skill points to be spent on it while also scaling with typical squishy class stats such as cooldown reduction can help with balancing imo
I really appreciate the approach of putting CC in different categories like explained in the stream already. I'm just not sure yet about the CC immunity for different categories being the best solution for my personal taste but I will do some testing on that during the A2
Labeling some of the stuff as status effects instead of CC and alike would probably be my idea, but yea will just give feedback on that in case it's being asked about again during A2
Thoughts on Crowd Control (CC) and CC Breaks in MMORPGs
PvP Perspective:
In PvP, crowd control (CC) is fine as long as it isn’t overwhelming and there’s variety in the types of CC available. For example, in EverQuest, the Necromancer’s "Clinging Darkness" slowed movement, dealt damage over time, and reduced visibility. Effective CC should offer counterplay options. For instance, when snared, a player could use a movement ability to gain range or close the gap; while rooted, they might activate a buff for better defense. Stuns shouldn’t last more than 15% of the time-to-kill (TTK) to keep fights fair, and effects like sleep should break on damage. Additionally, healers or support characters should have the ability to cleanse CC.
PvE Perspective:
In PvE, CC can last longer, giving support classes more to do. Bards, clerics, or other support roles could have abilities to counter CC, providing them with more meaningful engagement. Tanks should also have their own CC break abilities, as they’re designed to take hits and keep going, protecting their allies.
Archetypes and CC Breaks in Ashes of Creation:
Given the current fast TTK in Ashes of Creation, having CC breaks for all archetypes feels necessary. With a TTK of around 10–30 seconds for equal-level, equal-gear combat, a 4-second stun could take up to 40% of a 10-second fight. In group fights, this could turn into a 1–2 second TTK if everyone focuses on the same target. Players tend to seek an advantage in fights, and this will likely lead to rapid target vaporization.
Ideally, I would prefer a much longer TTK in the range of 1–2 minutes for 1v1 encounters. This would make CC impactful without being overly punishing. A 4–6 second stun, 10-second root, or 30-second snare would be significant, but not crippling. A longer TTK would also reduce the need for every class to have a CC break and make support roles more meaningful in both PvP and PvE by allowing them to assist with CC breaks. This would increase the skill ceiling without raising the skill floor too much, promoting strategic use of CC breaks and counterplay in group fights. With longer TTK, teams would have more time to react to focus fire without seeing a group member instantly eliminated.
CC or Damage When Allocating Skill Points:
When choosing between CC, CC breaks, or damage for skill points, most players (except tanks) would likely choose one CC break and invest the rest in CC. The reasoning is simple: you don’t need a CC break if your enemy is constantly CC’d. This thought process mirrors the current meta in WoW Classic servers, where high DPS is prioritized over everything else. The logic is to reduce the boss's lifespan as much as possible, often leading to trading support roles for more DPS.
The same thinking will apply to PvP. If you can lock down an enemy with CC, you’ll reduce incoming damage and CC. If you opt for multiple CC breaks, they’ll likely be exhausted within the first few seconds of a PvP fight. In PvE, players will be more forgiving and likely invest in at least one CC break.
3- Have a option to choose CCs as play style using the skill tree is necessary. Different archetypes should have different amount of CC and CC breaks. For example a rogue need have more CCs, maybe the summoner as well. Specific archetypes like Duelist or bard variations should have more CCs to be useful and increase the survivilance time, some classes need be able to kill stoping the target instead of massive damages.
Hot take: A rogue give up in his full time invisibility skill to choose more CCs and mobility is cool and completely change the play style ( In the place a short invisibility like 5-8 seconds would be enough)
Important for Small-medium sized combat, can get insanely infuriating in mass PvP.
Especially when it comes to Hard-CC {Stuns for example}.
I think using CC in a smart way (Both in PvP and PvE) is the first step that differentiates beginners from experienced players.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
This entirely depends on how much CC you introduce into the game, and how *easy* it is to dodge the said cc.
(Dodge in the form of eye-frames, dashes etc.). If there is counterplay or prevention, there is not a need for every class to have it. (Bards and Clerics are the main contenders.)
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Two points:
1. Specifically for SELF CC BREAKS
Feels bad, i think the choice should be between CC break and another CC break
(Ex. Pro active CC break like a CC break with charges that makes you immune to next 2-3 that are applied, reactive cc break, or passive %-centual *cc break* that reduces the duration of all cc's.)
2. Specifically for CC breaks for others and or area of effect ones from support/healers classes:
Can cost you *other utility* skill-points. Or Possibly acquired from titles/achievements/ or PvP achievements.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I feel that every class having a CC Break will either become a huge disadvantage or vulnerability to classes which depend on CC for defense. Will every class have an ability that completely neutralizes elements of an opponent's defenses? CC Break should be balanced with other offensive capabilities, or not used.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
CC should be balanced with defensive abilities. CC Break should be balanced with offensive abilities. Limitations of skill point allocation are an effective means of enforcing balance.
Additional info:
For cc breaks, I think all classes should have a cc break that, I know it will be controversial, is spammable. To prevent abuse it should have a few mechanics in place. It have a 1/4 sec animation that interrupts attacks and delays skill cooldowns by 1/4 sec as well. It will also do no damage. This will give players the chance to stop stunlocks from being a concern, to keep player agency, but will only allow them to stop the cc and not just macro spam it and be unstoppable.