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Living as a red player

SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
Hi there,

I know the game is a lot wider in scope than PvP. However I always enjoyed PvP in any game, especially if there is a risk/reward factor involved. Not just killing each other over and over again and the only punishment being waiting a few seconds to be able to respawn.
Hence I always gravitate towards mmo’s with the light or heavy focus on PvP.

This game has a PvX philosophy. From reading I gather the punishment/reward for becoming red currently I dont think PvP will be frequent outside of event.
Do you think if chosen, a red path, will it actually be viable? Can I live somewhere?
Should it even be viable?
Personally for me PvP and actually trying to be better than most people is a big driving factor for me to play games. I get competitive. Personally I hope that towards the end game red playstyle will be a viable option. Where you and your friends can become elite red bandits that live for the thrill of a good fight.

I also know there are other games that cater more towards this ‘need’ or ‘playstyle’
But just wanted to hear what other people think.
I mostly read negative or adverse opinions towards PvP in this community. While I personally would advocate for more of it.

Thanks
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Comments

  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    Its not sustainable to be a red player. The Corruption system is simply designed to deter griefing. With the penalties acquired from Corruption, if you remain corrupted for long periods of time you'll eventually be killed and receive large penalties upon death. And up until that death you will become weaker and weaker against players.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Serukkq wrote: »
    >> elite red bandits
    Corrupted players gain skill and stat dampening as soon as corruption is gained. This increases each time corruption is gained until they ultimately become ineffective at PvP combat
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skill_and_stat_dampening

    PvP is PvP. PK is PK.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Korela wrote: »
    Serukkq wrote: »
    >> elite red bandits
    Corrupted players gain skill and stat dampening as soon as corruption is gained. This increases each time corruption is gained until they ultimately become ineffective at PvP combat
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skill_and_stat_dampening

    PvP is PvP. PK is PK.

    PK is also PvP. Griefing is the target.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    Try it and see how it goes. 🤷‍♂️

    Keep in mind it’s the only way you can drop gear to other players.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    Korela wrote: »
    Serukkq wrote: »
    >> elite red bandits
    Corrupted players gain skill and stat dampening as soon as corruption is gained. This increases each time corruption is gained until they ultimately become ineffective at PvP combat
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skill_and_stat_dampening

    PvP is PvP. PK is PK.

    Besides that I personally think that PK’ing can be fun, even as the hunted. My best mmo memories are being jumped and than coming out on top.
    I understand that most people don’t like this however or are not that competitive that they see a death by a player not as something they have to overcome but avoid.

    What I hope to happen I guess is small scale fights. 5v5 or slightly outnumbered 3v5 fights here and there for reasons other than a caravan.

    PK’ing as a way to get resources of the trouble of others. Fighting another band of red players for a chance to get some dungeon crawlers etc..

    I just love the idea of living as an outlaw and always enjoyed that playstyle in my more pvp centered mmo’s.
    But the reduced stats prob make that not an option.
    Perhaps tho living in a lawless zone?
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Try it and see how it goes. 🤷‍♂️

    Keep in mind it’s the only way you can drop gear tonothwr players.

    Come and take it! 😈
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Serukkq wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Try it and see how it goes. 🤷‍♂️

    Keep in mind it’s the only way you can drop gear tonothwr players.

    Come and take it! 😈

    I mean, I applaud the moxy, but red players will have increasingly reduced stats, and will have a chance to drop their equipped gear. You can charge in very bravely, and die very quickly.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Serukkq wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Try it and see how it goes. 🤷‍♂️

    Keep in mind it’s the only way you can drop gear tonothwr players.

    Come and take it! 😈

    I mean, I applaud the moxy, but red players will have increasingly reduced stats, and will have a chance to drop their equipped gear. You can charge in very bravely, and die very quickly.

    Leads to the question how fast you can work off corruption/stat dampening
    Any info on that?

    All I can find is exp debt that needs to be worked off. That ties to stat dampening for greens.
  • Serukkq wrote: »
    Perhaps tho living in a lawless zone?
    Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lawless_zones
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Naval_PvP

    So, yes. I hope that there will be an option to play mainly next to (and even in) the open sea naval PvP zone.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Serukkq wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Serukkq wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Try it and see how it goes. 🤷‍♂️

    Keep in mind it’s the only way you can drop gear tonothwr players.

    Come and take it! 😈

    I mean, I applaud the moxy, but red players will have increasingly reduced stats, and will have a chance to drop their equipped gear. You can charge in very bravely, and die very quickly.

    Leads to the question how fast you can work off corruption/stat dampening
    Any info on that?

    All I can find is exp debt that needs to be worked off. That ties to stat dampening for greens.

    Yeah - agreed. All of this needs to be worked out so players can make informed choices.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Korela wrote: »
    Serukkq wrote: »
    Perhaps tho living in a lawless zone?
    Lawless zones are open-world areas where the corruption system is disabled. These are intended to be an Alpha-2-only feature to help test what will become open-sea content
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lawless_zones
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Naval_PvP

    So, yes. I hope that there will be an option to play mainly next to (and even in) the open sea naval PvP zone.

    kw9rvmZ.gif
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PodgnilPodgnil Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    As for me, the system with corruption is the most controversial decision of the developers. It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals, as if it is not the game that punishes you for your transgressions, not the laws of the world, but the developers themselves. Yes, griefing should be punishable, bounties on heads, increased fines for death - yes. forced reduction of characteristics - no.
    Why? Why should killing my victim, a merchant, a grender, an adventurer, make me weaker? I'm a criminal, not a weakling.
    I think griefers should be a problem of a node, in whose jurisdiction the land on which the crime is being committed is located. In this node of measures from the budget, the node must assign a reward for the heads of griefers, thereby ensuring security and attracting honest artisans to their lands. Those nodes that skimp on security will create lawlessness around themselves and gather a certain contingent, and this is normal. kind of a pirate bay)
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Podgnil wrote: »
    As for me, the system with corruption is the most controversial decision of the developers. It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals, as if it is not the game that punishes you for your transgressions, not the laws of the world, but the developers themselves. Yes, griefing should be punishable, bounties on heads, increased fines for death - yes. forced reduction of characteristics - no.
    Why? Why should killing my victim, a merchant, a grender, an adventurer, make me weaker? I'm a criminal, not a weakling.
    I think griefers should be a problem of a node, in whose jurisdiction the land on which the crime is being committed is located. In this node of measures from the budget, the node must assign a reward for the heads of griefers, thereby ensuring security and attracting honest artisans to their lands. Those nodes that skimp on security will create lawlessness around themselves and gather a certain contingent, and this is normal. kind of a pirate bay)

    balance > rp
  • PodgnilPodgnil Member, Alpha Two
    [quote=

    balance > rp[/quote]
    Depraved wrote: »
    Podgnil wrote: »
    As for me, the system with corruption is the most controversial decision of the developers. It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals, as if it is not the game that punishes you for your transgressions, not the laws of the world, but the developers themselves. Yes, griefing should be punishable, bounties on heads, increased fines for death - yes. forced reduction of characteristics - no.
    Why? Why should killing my victim, a merchant, a grender, an adventurer, make me weaker? I'm a criminal, not a weakling.
    I think griefers should be a problem of a node, in whose jurisdiction the land on which the crime is being committed is located. In this node of measures from the budget, the node must assign a reward for the heads of griefers, thereby ensuring security and attracting honest artisans to their lands. Those nodes that skimp on security will create lawlessness around themselves and gather a certain contingent, and this is normal. kind of a pirate bay)

    balance > rp
    I think the best way is when RP=BALANCE. Again, balance for whom? for collectors? for griefers? for adventurers? A very subjective concept. Here is an example of games that put balance at the forefront. Modern WoW - everything for everyone - Healing for wars and rogs, invisibility in half of the classes, they gave literally everything to everyone - for balance. But the classic version, in which there is no balance, but is based primarily on the RP, plays much more interestingly, immerses you in the world more. And is it really a balance when a developer underestimates the characteristics of your character? It looks more like a patch on the balance sheet.
  • BlipBlip Member, Alpha Two
    Podgnil wrote: »
    As for me, the system with corruption is the most controversial decision of the developers. It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals, as if it is not the game that punishes you for your transgressions, not the laws of the world, but the developers themselves. Yes, griefing should be punishable, bounties on heads, increased fines for death - yes. forced reduction of characteristics - no.
    Why? Why should killing my victim, a merchant, a grender, an adventurer, make me weaker? I'm a criminal, not a weakling.
    I think griefers should be a problem of a node, in whose jurisdiction the land on which the crime is being committed is located. In this node of measures from the budget, the node must assign a reward for the heads of griefers, thereby ensuring security and attracting honest artisans to their lands. Those nodes that skimp on security will create lawlessness around themselves and gather a certain contingent, and this is normal. kind of a pirate bay)

    I think this sound much more fun and imersive
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    Podgnil wrote: »
    As for me, the system with corruption is the most controversial decision of the developers. It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals, as if it is not the game that punishes you for your transgressions, not the laws of the world, but the developers themselves. Yes, griefing should be punishable, bounties on heads, increased fines for death - yes. forced reduction of characteristics - no.
    Why? Why should killing my victim, a merchant, a grender, an adventurer, make me weaker? I'm a criminal, not a weakling.
    I think griefers should be a problem of a node, in whose jurisdiction the land on which the crime is being committed is located. In this node of measures from the budget, the node must assign a reward for the heads of griefers, thereby ensuring security and attracting honest artisans to their lands. Those nodes that skimp on security will create lawlessness around themselves and gather a certain contingent, and this is normal. kind of a pirate bay)

    Will have to see how it plays out.
    I do agree that this ‘godly’ system feels weird and enacts controversy.
    I also understand that random pk’ing drives away a lot of players and only leaves behind a small group of players who enjoy full pvp mmo’s. Many games have tried to balance this thru the years with different systems and they always fail and every time the players left to play the game are these ‘pvp/griefers’.

    I agree that this corruption system just sounds odd, if I want to be a murdering jackass the punishment should come from the world and its players not some magical stat dampening that makes me weak. I could live with dropping all my gear upon death when red. But making me unable to kill another player after x kills just feels lame.

    I really enjoy pvp and I really like mmo’s. People often tell me ‘well go play x pvp mmo’
    But I played them all extensively and I want to play this game.
    Just hope that somehow being red or living the lawless life is a possibility somehow, someday.
  • PodgnilPodgnil Member, Alpha Two
    Serukka wrote: »

    Will have to see how it plays out.
    I do agree that this ‘godly’ system feels weird and enacts controversy.
    I also understand that random pk’ing drives away a lot of players and only leaves behind a small group of players who enjoy full pvp mmo’s. Many games have tried to balance this thru the years with different systems and they always fail and every time the players left to play the game are these ‘pvp/griefers’.

    I agree that this corruption system just sounds odd, if I want to be a murdering jackass the punishment should come from the world and its players not some magical stat dampening that makes me weak. I could live with dropping all my gear upon death when red. But making me unable to kill another player after x kills just feels lame.

    I really enjoy pvp and I really like mmo’s. People often tell me ‘well go play x pvp mmo’
    But I played them all extensively and I want to play this game.
    Just hope that somehow being red or living the lawless life is a possibility somehow, someday.

    I agree completely, such decisions kill banditry and robbery in the world of the game) Yes, of course, so that the game does not turn into a bloody swamp in which people are killed as soon as you leave the city, there must be tools that regulate this. Perhaps even prisons in nodes, in which the most malicious griefers can sit for a couple of days. Punishment must be logical and follow from the laws of the world. Ashes strives for the players to create the world, so why then did the developers take this issue completely to their own discretion)) This process should be self-regulating, the number of raids increases, players tighten laws, increase their security costs, pay more taxes. Banditry ceases to be profitable, the players begin to feel safe, and they tell the mayor that they do not want to pay so much. Okay, the tax will be reduced, no one wants to catch bandits, and so on and so forth... You understand. I understand that the system is complex, it is difficult to predict how it will work and whether it will work, but we have a couple of years of testing for this.

  • draugrisdraugris Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    Serukka wrote: »
    Hi there,

    Personally for me PvP and actually trying to be better than most people is a big driving factor for me to play games. I get competitive.
    Thanks

    Well, it´s actually funny reading this. Tbh I don´t believe you, you don´t want to be competitive, you just want to win, which is fine, but please don´t call it competition. Looking back to Archeage, BDO, Albion, or other games where PK'ing was a thing, I never met competitive players, it was always about either ganking or killing undergeared players. To make it short, it was only about the quick win and not about the competition with comparable opponents. Ashes of Creation will be a gear dependent game, so competition will be limited by design. If you really are about competition play GW2 structured PvP. Competitive PvP in MMO´s is rare to find and even more rare is the success of such PvP modes. Why, because in the end, most people want easy mode. My hope for AC is that living as a red player will not be viable in any shape or form. I just want PvP to be fun for everybody.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Serukka wrote: »
    Do you think if chosen, a red path, will it actually be viable? Can I live somewhere?
    Should it even be viable?

    You can live in the deep ocean if you find a friend to bring you food.

    There was a thread where someone suggested to have a node permanently at war with everyone else. I think it would not be viable and would be destroyed fast. Nodes need peace with some other nodes to evolve.
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    draugris wrote: »
    Serukka wrote: »
    Hi there,

    Personally for me PvP and actually trying to be better than most people is a big driving factor for me to play games. I get competitive.
    Thanks

    Well, it´s actually funny reading this. Tbh I don´t believe you, you don´t want to be competitive, you just want to win, which is fine, but please don´t call it competition. Looking back to Archeage, BDO, Albion, or other games where PK'ing was a thing, I never met competitive players, it was always about either ganking or killing undergeared players. To make it short, it was only about the quick win and not about the competition with comparable opponents. Ashes of Creation will be a gear dependent game, so competition will be limited by design. If you really are about competition play GW2 structured PvP. Competitive PvP in MMO´s is rare to find.


    There is PK’ing
    Just ganking for loot you look for an easy kill.
    Ngl this is fun

    There is PvP in big groups
    Think sieges and or big events 40v40 or whatever. Here the leadership skill is the most important and group composition.

    Than lastly small scale PvP 3v3 or 3v5 whatever.
    This is what i always loved the most and where individual skill and group cohesion is vital. Here you can def be better and competitive. In other mmo’s I spend hours looking at my own footage to see what I can improve. Spend hours practicing with guildies to be better.

    There def is the aspect of a fun easy gank. But youre experience might be skewed or limited to the receiving end of griefers i feel like.
    Unfortunately or depending how you look at it, it is within that sub group of players you find the competitive and good players.
  • PodgnilPodgnil Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    Perhaps another good mechanic for adjusting griefing would be distance from Nod. The closer to the node the crime is committed, the stronger the punishment, and even if in the forest next to the node it will be absurd, but the further from the city and civilization the crime is committed, the weaker the punishment. Everything is within the framework of the concept of risk versus reward) if you want to collect resources in the city alone, and gather a full bag of grass/ore, be prepared to be ganked. If you are a pve hamster and after rogue sat on your back, his horny fingers reach for alt+f4, spin around the nodes, don’t go too far, don’t take risks.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Podgnil wrote: »
    It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals

    This game is all about the gods meddling in the affairs of mortals. The evil gods attack, the good gods save the mortals, the good gods then bring the mortals back in order to carry on pushing back evil.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    draugris wrote: »
    Serukka wrote: »
    Hi there,

    Personally for me PvP and actually trying to be better than most people is a big driving factor for me to play games. I get competitive.
    Thanks

    Well, it´s actually funny reading this. Tbh I don´t believe you, you don´t want to be competitive, you just want to win, which is fine, but please don´t call it competition.

    Haha yeah, becoming Corrupted isn't about "competition", cos it's just them killing somebody that isn't fighting back. There's no competition there.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • The design behind the corruption is that you get reward from killing a green guy that you know he has a lot materials for example which you can steal. and the risk is becoming red.
    It is not designed to live as a red player. There is no reward in staying red all the time. Staying red is the risk.
  • SerukkaSerukka Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    The design behind the corruption is that you get reward from killing a green guy that you know he has a lot materials for example which you can steal. and the risk is becoming red.
    It is not designed to live as a red player. There is no reward in staying red all the time. Staying red is the risk.


    Losing your gear, harsher death punishment i agree with it all.
    Do you agree however that you also should be nerfed combat wise?

    I feel like that is a bit lame.
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    They are patterning things like Eve Online where there are punishing areas for PVP and areas where any thing goes. The high seas are this games Null Sec Space.
  • PendragxnPendragxn Member
    edited October 14
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lawless_zones

    Sandsquall Desert

    The Turquoise Sea
    They are patterning things like Eve Online where there are punishing areas for PVP and areas where any thing goes. The high seas are this games Null Sec Space.

    I hope it’s not just the sea we get to have a lawless zone though. It says they’re only a feature for alpha 2 and won’t be used after open sea implementation. Would be nice to have a land area where the corruption system is disabled too. I hope the desert stays as a lawless zone as well as other land areas or biomes.

    Would make sense to have Lawless Zones further out towards the edges of the map as they’re further away from nodes or society. Though I like the concept they offer better rewards in those areas will be fun PvX content for sure.

    I do hope people make PK/PvP guilds though or live out in these zones or on the open seas as pirates. Having those kinds of things makes the game more interesting and it presents opportunities for PvP.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Podgnil wrote: »
    It looks like the hand of God meddling into the affairs of mortals

    This game is all about the gods meddling in the affairs of mortals. The evil gods attack, the good gods save the mortals, the good gods then bring the mortals back in order to carry on pushing back evil.

    And the Gods keep your storage on your own freehold locked if you are red.
    Maybe the storage belongs to the Gods and we only have a license to use it?
  • GithalGithal Member
    edited October 14
    Serukka wrote: »
    Githal wrote: »
    The design behind the corruption is that you get reward from killing a green guy that you know he has a lot materials for example which you can steal. and the risk is becoming red.
    It is not designed to live as a red player. There is no reward in staying red all the time. Staying red is the risk.


    Losing your gear, harsher death punishment i agree with it all.
    Do you agree however that you also should be nerfed combat wise?

    I feel like that is a bit lame.

    Good question.
    While i understand the logic behind this nerfing. Which is so a camper cant kill you 80.
    I dont think that nerfing should be the way it is done. Like If Bounty hunting is earning big rewards, If someone is camping you, all you will need to do is wait 20 min, and there will be bounty hunter that is here to claim the camper head.

    so ye.. i also think the nerfing is lame.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 14
    Much of the push back above is about individuals griefing greens as a ‘bad guy.’ I’m more concerned about large guilds just mopping the field of any greens not in their guild. That scale of griefing will cause mass attrition of the pve player segment, and Ashes will be relegated to an MO2-esque existence.

    The corruption system is the weight bearing beam holding up the PvX house. You may not get to live your best life as an rp criminal, but that may come at trade-off of hundreds of players sticking around. I can’t even guess how many subsystems will need to be in place to constantly adjust the pendulum of corruption over time.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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