Well, I think he has the right to suggest you be productive and you have the right to ignore him and continue memeing - I guess that's up to the community intrepid 'gal, though~!
Lets make one thing clear: this is just for the principle of the thing and i have nothing against you at all(your account is fresh after all and these are your first comments).
Now that that is out of the way.
Scenario:
You are having a discussion with some other people. You are having fun, and someone makes a joke about the theme of the conversation. Suddenly someone else comes and tells everyone that he should stop making funny commentary and take the conversation serious, to stop fooling around and be more productive. He then says that such commentary is not noteworthy.
Would you seriously take the new guys side?
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm not sure why players that prefer one over the other would prefer the other to not be implemented. It's a selfish thing.
When joining the game, having read about the game, we know it will be a hybrid. Expressing opinions on that is awesome and what the forums are for.
Pushing for change from a personal perspective is selfish. Action combat might be more fun or enjoyable for some, but assuming that is true for everyone is odd.
I don't want to play an Overwatch-like game. If I did, I would play Overwatch. I don't mind playing an action combat game, but I came to Ashes for a hybrid which I found out about before I gave IS any money.
Well, I think he has the right to suggest you be productive and you have the right to ignore him and continue memeing - I guess that's up to the community intrepid 'gal, though~!
Scenario:
You are having a discussion with some other people. You are having fun, and someone makes a joke about the theme of the conversation. Suddenly someone else comes and tells everyone that he should stop making funny commentary and take the conversation serious, to stop fooling around and be more productive. He then says that such commentary is not noteworthy.
Would you seriously take the new guys side?
In a bar? No.
In a business setting? Yes.
On a gaming forum? I'd tell them they are both right to do with their time what they want.
I'm not sure why players that prefer one over the other would prefer the other to not be implemented. It's a selfish thing.
When joining the game, having read about the game, we know it will be a hybrid. Expressing opinions on that is awesome and what the forums are for.
Pushing for change from a personal perspective is selfish. Action combat might be more fun or enjoyable for some, but assuming that is true for everyone is odd.
I don't want to play an Overwatch-like game. If I did, I would play Overwatch. I don't mind playing an action combat game, but I came to Ashes for a hybrid which I found out about before I gave IS any money.
I'd agree it'd be selfish if there was a clear path to an enjoyable hybrid experience.
The best they could do is something that emulates Bless Online, which isn't exactly a TPS actiony style game.
Also that's odd, so you would play Overwatch if you wanted Overwatch combat? Why don't you play any of the other tab target games available, then?
Hahaha, because you want to play a game with more than just combat, friend. Combat is important though.
Another thing:
PRODUCTIVITY?!? IN THESE FORUMS? THAT WOULD IGNITE A MASSIVE REVOLT OF UNIMAGINABLE PROPORTIONS YOU MAD MAN!
(Did i just call you a mad man? Yes, yes i did. Am i proud to eventually ignite your baby rage? Yes, yes i am.)
I'm glad you're having fun! Some of us are invested in the game development, and are hoping to provide our perspectives in the hope that the game enjoys significant success on release!
Alternative views are absolutely welcome! Lay out what you believe, the justifications, and rationale. Memes are also fun, even if they just help lighten the mood instead of give valuable feedback.
Well, i did have my fun and was quite "productive" on the forum , at least until someone said that funny commentary and eventual satire should not be in threads such as this one. The word itself: productivity, should not be spoken in the context of forums. We are not working on the forums, we are not getting payed. No one, and i mean NO ONE, has the right to tell others to be productive on a hobby.
Exactly. This isn't a place for clowns. This is not the right topic.
The forum is called "General Discussion" for a reason.
I'll stop here because such meaningless side-talk will spoil the topic.
I dont know how you could gather that from my post. I pretty much said the exact opposite...
I also hope that you will one day read the Dps Meter thread.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Another thing:
PRODUCTIVITY?!? IN THESE FORUMS? THAT WOULD IGNITE A MASSIVE REVOLT OF UNIMAGINABLE PROPORTIONS YOU MAD MAN!
(Did i just call you a mad man? Yes, yes i did. Am i proud to eventually ignite your baby rage? Yes, yes i am.)
I'm glad you're having fun! Some of us are invested in the game development, and are hoping to provide our perspectives in the hope that the game enjoys significant success on release!
Alternative views are absolutely welcome! Lay out what you believe, the justifications, and rationale. Memes are also fun, even if they just help lighten the mood instead of give valuable feedback.
funny commentary and eventual satire should not be in threads such as this one.
Exactly. This isn't a place for clowns. This is not the right topic.
The forum is called "General Discussion" for a reason.
I'll stop here because such meaningless side-talk will spoil the topic.
You must be new to these forums then
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Another thing:
PRODUCTIVITY?!? IN THESE FORUMS? THAT WOULD IGNITE A MASSIVE REVOLT OF UNIMAGINABLE PROPORTIONS YOU MAD MAN!
(Did i just call you a mad man? Yes, yes i did. Am i proud to eventually ignite your baby rage? Yes, yes i am.)
I'm glad you're having fun! Some of us are invested in the game development, and are hoping to provide our perspectives in the hope that the game enjoys significant success on release!
Alternative views are absolutely welcome! Lay out what you believe, the justifications, and rationale. Memes are also fun, even if they just help lighten the mood instead of give valuable feedback.
funny commentary and eventual satire should not be in threads such as this one.
Exactly. This isn't a place for clowns. This is not the right topic.
The forum is called "General Discussion" for a reason.
I'll stop here because such meaningless side-talk will spoil the topic.
You must be new to these forums then
I just saw that she cropped my answere to fit her opinion.... :'D so laughable....
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I keep feeling like this
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Another thing:
PRODUCTIVITY?!? IN THESE FORUMS? THAT WOULD IGNITE A MASSIVE REVOLT OF UNIMAGINABLE PROPORTIONS YOU MAD MAN!
(Did i just call you a mad man? Yes, yes i did. Am i proud to eventually ignite your baby rage? Yes, yes i am.)
I'm glad you're having fun! Some of us are invested in the game development, and are hoping to provide our perspectives in the hope that the game enjoys significant success on release!
Alternative views are absolutely welcome! Lay out what you believe, the justifications, and rationale. Memes are also fun, even if they just help lighten the mood instead of give valuable feedback.
funny commentary and eventual satire should not be in threads such as this one.
Exactly. This isn't a place for clowns. This is not the right topic.
The forum is called "General Discussion" for a reason.
I'll stop here because such meaningless side-talk will spoil the topic.
You must be new to these forums then
No kidding, holy crap. Did I click the wrong link and end up on the bulletin board for a US Senate budgetary committee?!
Its awesome to see someone question the choices devs are making.
I can agree that action combat in apoc is looking great and Ive seen fun action combat systems elsewhere.
I still would prefer for the team to hold their way.
Ive seen what they can do with action combat in apoc, and to me its a tell of a talented dev team.
I simply cant visualize to detail what kind of hybrid combat this team is able to create.
@Robben DuMarsch Im interested, what kind of hybrid system do u visualize for comparison?
I can see possibility of having tab as aim locking and as a way to control AoEs.
I would really like to see more objective posts from the supporters of tab target, to hear what kind of system they are visualizing and the justifications.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd agree it'd be selfish if there was a clear path to an enjoyable hybrid experience.
The best they could do is something that emulates Bless Online, which isn't exactly a TPS actiony style game.
Also that's odd, so you would play Overwatch if you wanted Overwatch combat? Why don't you play any of the other tab target games available, then?
Hahaha, because you want to play a game with more than just combat, friend. Combat is important though.
Technically I would still consider it selfish regardless of how many paths are available. Unless there was only one viable path, except in this case there isn't. It's all preference based, not factual.
Also, I want to play Ashes because I like RPGs. I play lots of RPGs so in that way your point makes sense.
I did not choose Ashes because it was tab target. I thought a hybrid would be nice to see. I would in fact play other hybrid games. As I am sure action combat fans play many other action combat games.
But I didn't come to a FPS game website and tell everyone all the reasons why an RPG is better than a straight FPS. Mostly, because I pick games than sound like games I would like and then play them. If i don't like them, I move on. No harm done.
I will also agree combat is important. Which is likely one of the reasons for all the testing. That said, a hybrid combat system can be important.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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ArgentDawnMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I fully expect to see both In the game. I'm also fully expecting to see action combat take the lead over tab targeting as long as SKILLED GAMEPLAY is rewarded for action combat. Otherwise there's no reason to have both.
Tab Target by nature will connect to the enemy as long as your path is clear and have the correct amount of hit % (if that's a thing in ashes). I'm assuming in general tab Target abilities will not be as potent. I also expect tab Target to receive a % based crit system.
On the other hand action combat I'm hoping will reward skilled gameplay. Guaranteed crit depending on where you hit is considered weak (head/chest/etc), action combat potencies should be higher in general and if I remember from a recent stream certain abilities have attack arcs so if you aim right you should register multiple hits on the same Target from one attack.
I'm a huge fan boy of tab Target so I'm a little biased and I miss the days of having 30-50 keybinds for on use situational abilities or making macros for specific situations but I still think Your average traditional MMO player will probably stick to a 75/25 split of tab/action abilities. While your more recent MMO and fps players will probably prefer a twitchier gamestyle. That's just my educated guess but I'd be willing to stand by it.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Nagash Don't know why you are engaging him/her/it. It is another of those controversial edge posts that go nowhere that we have seen like the "DPS METERS OR DEATH!" that eventually will boil down to 2-4 tryhards strawmanning in circles to show how little they know of development. Steven is going to do what Steven wants to do to get the product out the door and keep making money. While the 200 average people they get playing the BR when they are not throwing skins to prop it up may be happy, they are insignificant in number to the already paid backers and other mmo types out there that will make their voice heard if the promises they were sold on are reneged upon. The new ones are cute when they first arrive and are so earnest without doing the research of what has come before. Let them tilt at that windmill, they will eventually cry themselves out and go for a nap.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Nagash Don't know why you are engaging him/her/it. It is another of those controversial edge posts that go nowhere that we have seen like the "DPS METERS OR DEATH!" that eventually will boil down to 2-4 tryhards strawmanning in circles to show how little they know of development. Steven is going to do what Steven wants to do to get the product out the door and keep making money. While the 200 average people they get playing the BR when they are not throwing skins to prop it up may be happy, they are insignificant in number to the already paid backers and other mmo types out there that will make their voice heard if the promises they were sold on are reneged upon. The new ones are cute when they first arrive and are so earnest without doing the research of what has come before. Let them tilt at that windmill, they will eventually cry themselves out and go for a nap.
I have to get my fun from somewhere so why not have fun with the noobies
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
True, but at your level of undeath it is just like pulling wings off of very tiny flies.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
OP is exactly what has been poisoning the mmorpg genre for a long time now.
To many "players" come from the FPS genre and tries to (and succeds) to add thing from FPS into the mmorpg genre, which largely has failed.
To many players are to young and are WAY to influenced by the FPS genre.
People should stop trying to shoehorn in things from another genre and stick to what actually works.
Tab Target is vastly more succesful in the mmorpg genre, even in recent games, it just works so much better.
Its more enjoyable to a larger playerbase and arent as "twitchy" and stressful, which is a main reason why people play mmorpgs, to relax.
Its also one of the main reasons why i dont like the BR. Its to influenced by FPS, and the players playing it, mainly FPS players, will have to much impact.
OP is exactly what has been poisoning the mmorpg genre for a long time now.
To many "players" come from the FPS genre and tries to (and succeds) to add thing from FPS into the mmorpg genre, which largely has failed.
To many players are to young and are WAY to influenced by the FPS genre.
People should stop trying to shoehorn in things from another genre and stick to what actually works.
Tab Target is vastly more succesful in the mmorpg genre, even in recent games, it just works so much better.
Its more enjoyable to a larger playerbase and arent as "twitchy" and stressful, which is a main reason why people play mmorpgs, to relax.
Its also one of the main reasons why i dont like the BR. Its to influenced by FPS, and the players playing it, mainly FPS players, will have to much impact.
There’s hardly any need for such hostility. Action combat is not twitchy, although it rewards good reflexes. Tab target combat is not vastly more successful, the top spots for MMOs are WoW (tab), FFXIV (tab), ESO (action), and BDO (action).
I would also argue tab combat more strictly limits the effects of player skill, as well as being less fluid. These aren’t opinions so much as demonstrative realities of tab combat. It takes unquestionably longer to turn the camera and click a new target than it does to simply turn the camera. Having damage determined by good aim unquestionably requires more skill to hit peak potential than an ability that will always do damage no matter where you’re looking at the moment, tab target ability efficiency per-cast is static from newbie to veteran.
If you have points to counter the OP, who presents a very thorough take on how they view tab combat as unnecessary, then by all means, but as it stands you’re really just being toxic because someone shared their opinion.
If you find rewards for player skill to be a negative thing, then I don’t believe any kind of inherently competitive game will be the relaxing experience you’re imagining it as. AoC certainly will be competitive, between guilds, between nodes, between traders and raiders. In that sort of game world, it would feel better, and make more sense if player skill was rewarded across the board, whether it be for better reflexes, better spying, or better selling methods.
I think you're conflating tab targeting and RPG mechanics.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2019
Deleted because the thread that prompted the response was deleted.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't understand how we can consider each other enemies and haters on a mostly anonymous thread.
That said, I don't need to post a huge list of reasons why I think tab-targeting is better. Because, like in the OP, those would mostly be preferences and opinions. I don't need to list mine, nor do I want to convince others how right mine are versus theirs.
If the OP were to post a legit thread stating their opinions as opinions without automatically discounting others or explaining why tab-targeting shouldn't happen, I will engage in a conversation. Until then, I will engage like someone who is entitled to their opinion and believe it's better than everyone's personal opinions. You know, like the op.
OP Quotes
"This might seem crazy to some of you that are entirely invested in tab target, and absolutely reject the idea of needing to aim or use "twitch skills" like in competitive FPS genre. But, it's possible to make an "action combat" system that appeals to you, too."
-This is opinion, and specifically indicates anyone that doesn't agree with them doesn't think as clearly as they do right off the get go.
"But why sacrifice tab target? It's not going to be easy to balance, nor will it be necessarily fun, to have a hybrid system."
-This is an opinion, where it might not necessarily be fun for the op, it will be for me.
"Action combat can simply be more fun, enjoyable, immersive, and if enough resources are poured into it that might otherwise need to be spent on a hybrid system, could be even better for players that want to avoid twitch style gameplay."
-This is an opinion, action combat can simply be more fun for the op, but not necessarily for me. Pouring more resources into it to remove the level of twitch needed also seems speculative. Like, I don't know, assuming action and tab combats shouldn't mix.
""Action Combat" and Tab Targeting are like an ice cream sundae and beef stew. Both are good in their own right, but they shouldn't be mixed together."
-This is an opinion, as you can tell not everyone agrees they shouldn't be mixed.
As long as tab targeted abilities will register that I WANT to cast them on a target in my reticle, regardless of if it’s been locked in, and it casts, then I can learn to get along with a tab system.
If not, then the “tab” abilities on my bar will be used purely for buffs, or not used at all.
The reason I dropped FFXIV was because of how clunky combat felt when I dared to try casting an ability without clicking on and enemy first. God forbid I shoot at the thing I’m staring dead at, that’s punching me, that I would LOVE to sic my tank minion on, but nah, I’ll just stand here because I didn’t glue a damn neon sign to its head first.
Purely frustrating and unintuitive. Especially the dozens of F#+1-9 to figure out which target of a target targeting me that I’m trying to aim at
I don't currently have the time to break this down in more detail, but to address some of Azathoth's comments, the flaw from a hybrid system is evident in this video quote of the devs. This is not an "opinion," as you seem to insist referring to my other material as, but rather facts we should be able to agree upon (in this case a developer statement) that I am taking to be axiomatic, from which I draw clear inferences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH-sX1aFljM&feature=youtu.be&t=37m57s
Steve and his design team have identified that having a hybrid system means that tab target hard CC would allow an "action combat" skill to land more easily, thereby causing the additional bonuses applied to the "action combat" skill to land too easily for the increased power they'd otherwise provide.
That means that the "tab target" skills would lose out on all forms, or most types, of Hard CC, in order to limit their synergy when combined with "action combat" skills.
That is to say, the interaction between CC (which is a core component of tab target games), and "action combat," creates an imbalance that requires gutting certain styles of play from the "tab target" component.
The inverse is also true, in that "dodging" effects are going to be extremely powerful to mitigate damage from "action combat" but extremely ineffective at doing the same vis a vis tab target abilities. In this situation, if you've got a kit with lots of movement abilities, it will likely have a much better performance against opponents that are using "action combat," than opponents using "tab target," thereby having situational bonuses against some opponents simply because of the style of combat they prefer to play.
These two systems are clashing in such a way that the entire combat system will need to be designed around avoiding the inherent imbalances in these combat systems from being exploitable - Thereby resulting in silly limitations, like no hard CC for anyone using "tab target."
If all of this is too much of a pain in the butt for you to unravel, let me give you a simple analogy:
You are designing an action combat game.
One team is full of regular players.
One team is full of players that run aimbots, because they want to watch netflix, relax, and hate aiming.
You need to nerf the abilities and weapons of the team of players that run aimbots to make it balanced.
Then you need to scramble the teams, and force every player to use some of the aimbots+nerfed abilities some of the time, and the regular stuff the other part of the time.
Do you see any issues that might arise in keeping the combat fun, fair, and engaging?
Dial-up wasn’t “below suggested minimum” when EQ was released, it was all that was available. Broadband internet wasn’t common until years after the launch of EQ.
There were 20,000,000 broadband connections a year after EQ launched.
Broadband was never a minimum requirement, but a DSL connection was a suggested minimum (they are different).
You mention ping and scale here as something that nobody has managed to vanquish in a large scale "action combat setting."
I assume you didn't even read my post.
You are the one that said scale of combat was a factor in why tab targeting is a thing, I said it isn't.
Ping, however, is.
You want to counter my point with Planetside 2. Probably the game that has put the most effort in to getting action based combat working with slower connections, and so probably the closest thing you have to counter that point.
However, I counter that point with the miner in Outback Australia, the scientist on Antarctica, the sailor in the middle of the Atlantic, or the soldier in the middle of literally nowhere.
Planetside 2 works really well with a ping of up to bout 350. By the time you get to 500, it is as unplayable as any other action based PvP game. Set yourself up a slow connection to a Planetside 2 server and find out for yourself.
For as long as the examples above exist with the ping they often have, there remains a place for tab targeting in MMO's.
You seem to have discounted the most important point I made in my post - that different gameplay features attract different gamers.
If Intrepid go 100% action combat, they lose the MMO audience for the most part. Instead, they try to attract the audience that currently play Overwatch, Pubg or Fortnite - or any one of dozens of second rate BR games that are around now.
While that audience is large, the market for games with the style of gameplay those players want is over saturated right now. Making an action game right now is like making a WoW clone back in 2008 - massive audience, but you're too late to the party. And lets not even look at the dysfunction of trying to get a 100% action combat system feeling anything other than tacked on to a game that is a foll on, time investment heavy MMORPG rather than the short bursts of instant gratification gameplay that action combat based games usually offer, and action combat gamers play (remembering that a bulk of MMO players would just pass on the game).
Trying to compete head to head with the current BR's is absolutely futile. Trying to attract a small portion of those players that may want a deeper gameplay experience, however, is good business.
Comments
Lets make one thing clear: this is just for the principle of the thing and i have nothing against you at all(your account is fresh after all and these are your first comments).
Now that that is out of the way.
Scenario:
You are having a discussion with some other people. You are having fun, and someone makes a joke about the theme of the conversation. Suddenly someone else comes and tells everyone that he should stop making funny commentary and take the conversation serious, to stop fooling around and be more productive. He then says that such commentary is not noteworthy.
Would you seriously take the new guys side?
When joining the game, having read about the game, we know it will be a hybrid. Expressing opinions on that is awesome and what the forums are for.
Pushing for change from a personal perspective is selfish. Action combat might be more fun or enjoyable for some, but assuming that is true for everyone is odd.
I don't want to play an Overwatch-like game. If I did, I would play Overwatch. I don't mind playing an action combat game, but I came to Ashes for a hybrid which I found out about before I gave IS any money.
In a bar? No.
In a business setting? Yes.
On a gaming forum? I'd tell them they are both right to do with their time what they want.
I'd agree it'd be selfish if there was a clear path to an enjoyable hybrid experience.
The best they could do is something that emulates Bless Online, which isn't exactly a TPS actiony style game.
Also that's odd, so you would play Overwatch if you wanted Overwatch combat? Why don't you play any of the other tab target games available, then?
Hahaha, because you want to play a game with more than just combat, friend. Combat is important though.
I dont know how you could gather that from my post. I pretty much said the exact opposite...
I also hope that you will one day read the Dps Meter thread.
You must be new to these forums then
I just saw that she cropped my answere to fit her opinion.... :'D so laughable....
No kidding, holy crap. Did I click the wrong link and end up on the bulletin board for a US Senate budgetary committee?!
I can agree that action combat in apoc is looking great and Ive seen fun action combat systems elsewhere.
I still would prefer for the team to hold their way.
Ive seen what they can do with action combat in apoc, and to me its a tell of a talented dev team.
I simply cant visualize to detail what kind of hybrid combat this team is able to create.
@Robben DuMarsch Im interested, what kind of hybrid system do u visualize for comparison?
I can see possibility of having tab as aim locking and as a way to control AoEs.
I would really like to see more objective posts from the supporters of tab target, to hear what kind of system they are visualizing and the justifications.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Technically I would still consider it selfish regardless of how many paths are available. Unless there was only one viable path, except in this case there isn't. It's all preference based, not factual.
Also, I want to play Ashes because I like RPGs. I play lots of RPGs so in that way your point makes sense.
I did not choose Ashes because it was tab target. I thought a hybrid would be nice to see. I would in fact play other hybrid games. As I am sure action combat fans play many other action combat games.
But I didn't come to a FPS game website and tell everyone all the reasons why an RPG is better than a straight FPS. Mostly, because I pick games than sound like games I would like and then play them. If i don't like them, I move on. No harm done.
I will also agree combat is important. Which is likely one of the reasons for all the testing. That said, a hybrid combat system can be important.
Tab Target by nature will connect to the enemy as long as your path is clear and have the correct amount of hit % (if that's a thing in ashes). I'm assuming in general tab Target abilities will not be as potent. I also expect tab Target to receive a % based crit system.
On the other hand action combat I'm hoping will reward skilled gameplay. Guaranteed crit depending on where you hit is considered weak (head/chest/etc), action combat potencies should be higher in general and if I remember from a recent stream certain abilities have attack arcs so if you aim right you should register multiple hits on the same Target from one attack.
I'm a huge fan boy of tab Target so I'm a little biased and I miss the days of having 30-50 keybinds for on use situational abilities or making macros for specific situations but I still think Your average traditional MMO player will probably stick to a 75/25 split of tab/action abilities. While your more recent MMO and fps players will probably prefer a twitchier gamestyle. That's just my educated guess but I'd be willing to stand by it.
I have to get my fun from somewhere so why not have fun with the noobies
Well it is the season for mischief and pranks ^^
To many "players" come from the FPS genre and tries to (and succeds) to add thing from FPS into the mmorpg genre, which largely has failed.
To many players are to young and are WAY to influenced by the FPS genre.
People should stop trying to shoehorn in things from another genre and stick to what actually works.
Tab Target is vastly more succesful in the mmorpg genre, even in recent games, it just works so much better.
Its more enjoyable to a larger playerbase and arent as "twitchy" and stressful, which is a main reason why people play mmorpgs, to relax.
Its also one of the main reasons why i dont like the BR. Its to influenced by FPS, and the players playing it, mainly FPS players, will have to much impact.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
I guess all those MMOs I've played were just
FPS in disguise 😅*
*This is just a small sampling.
There’s hardly any need for such hostility. Action combat is not twitchy, although it rewards good reflexes. Tab target combat is not vastly more successful, the top spots for MMOs are WoW (tab), FFXIV (tab), ESO (action), and BDO (action).
I would also argue tab combat more strictly limits the effects of player skill, as well as being less fluid. These aren’t opinions so much as demonstrative realities of tab combat. It takes unquestionably longer to turn the camera and click a new target than it does to simply turn the camera. Having damage determined by good aim unquestionably requires more skill to hit peak potential than an ability that will always do damage no matter where you’re looking at the moment, tab target ability efficiency per-cast is static from newbie to veteran.
If you have points to counter the OP, who presents a very thorough take on how they view tab combat as unnecessary, then by all means, but as it stands you’re really just being toxic because someone shared their opinion.
If you find rewards for player skill to be a negative thing, then I don’t believe any kind of inherently competitive game will be the relaxing experience you’re imagining it as. AoC certainly will be competitive, between guilds, between nodes, between traders and raiders. In that sort of game world, it would feel better, and make more sense if player skill was rewarded across the board, whether it be for better reflexes, better spying, or better selling methods.
"Explore, trade, build, and let the world take the shape of your vision." AoC main page.
"Ashes of Creation will incorporate the best parts of traditional MMORPGs" /mmo page
This is at heart an RPG, not an 'action' game. Just sayin'.
That said, I don't need to post a huge list of reasons why I think tab-targeting is better. Because, like in the OP, those would mostly be preferences and opinions. I don't need to list mine, nor do I want to convince others how right mine are versus theirs.
If the OP were to post a legit thread stating their opinions as opinions without automatically discounting others or explaining why tab-targeting shouldn't happen, I will engage in a conversation. Until then, I will engage like someone who is entitled to their opinion and believe it's better than everyone's personal opinions. You know, like the op.
OP Quotes
"This might seem crazy to some of you that are entirely invested in tab target, and absolutely reject the idea of needing to aim or use "twitch skills" like in competitive FPS genre. But, it's possible to make an "action combat" system that appeals to you, too."
-This is opinion, and specifically indicates anyone that doesn't agree with them doesn't think as clearly as they do right off the get go.
"But why sacrifice tab target? It's not going to be easy to balance, nor will it be necessarily fun, to have a hybrid system."
-This is an opinion, where it might not necessarily be fun for the op, it will be for me.
"Action combat can simply be more fun, enjoyable, immersive, and if enough resources are poured into it that might otherwise need to be spent on a hybrid system, could be even better for players that want to avoid twitch style gameplay."
-This is an opinion, action combat can simply be more fun for the op, but not necessarily for me. Pouring more resources into it to remove the level of twitch needed also seems speculative. Like, I don't know, assuming action and tab combats shouldn't mix.
""Action Combat" and Tab Targeting are like an ice cream sundae and beef stew. Both are good in their own right, but they shouldn't be mixed together."
-This is an opinion, as you can tell not everyone agrees they shouldn't be mixed.
If not, then the “tab” abilities on my bar will be used purely for buffs, or not used at all.
Purely frustrating and unintuitive. Especially the dozens of F#+1-9 to figure out which target of a target targeting me that I’m trying to aim at
Steve and his design team have identified that having a hybrid system means that tab target hard CC would allow an "action combat" skill to land more easily, thereby causing the additional bonuses applied to the "action combat" skill to land too easily for the increased power they'd otherwise provide.
That means that the "tab target" skills would lose out on all forms, or most types, of Hard CC, in order to limit their synergy when combined with "action combat" skills.
That is to say, the interaction between CC (which is a core component of tab target games), and "action combat," creates an imbalance that requires gutting certain styles of play from the "tab target" component.
The inverse is also true, in that "dodging" effects are going to be extremely powerful to mitigate damage from "action combat" but extremely ineffective at doing the same vis a vis tab target abilities. In this situation, if you've got a kit with lots of movement abilities, it will likely have a much better performance against opponents that are using "action combat," than opponents using "tab target," thereby having situational bonuses against some opponents simply because of the style of combat they prefer to play.
These two systems are clashing in such a way that the entire combat system will need to be designed around avoiding the inherent imbalances in these combat systems from being exploitable - Thereby resulting in silly limitations, like no hard CC for anyone using "tab target."
If all of this is too much of a pain in the butt for you to unravel, let me give you a simple analogy:
You are designing an action combat game.
One team is full of regular players.
One team is full of players that run aimbots, because they want to watch netflix, relax, and hate aiming.
You need to nerf the abilities and weapons of the team of players that run aimbots to make it balanced.
Then you need to scramble the teams, and force every player to use some of the aimbots+nerfed abilities some of the time, and the regular stuff the other part of the time.
Do you see any issues that might arise in keeping the combat fun, fair, and engaging?
(Take it or leave it, justbwanted to throw this in here)
Broadband was never a minimum requirement, but a DSL connection was a suggested minimum (they are different).
You are the one that said scale of combat was a factor in why tab targeting is a thing, I said it isn't.
Ping, however, is.
You want to counter my point with Planetside 2. Probably the game that has put the most effort in to getting action based combat working with slower connections, and so probably the closest thing you have to counter that point.
However, I counter that point with the miner in Outback Australia, the scientist on Antarctica, the sailor in the middle of the Atlantic, or the soldier in the middle of literally nowhere.
Planetside 2 works really well with a ping of up to bout 350. By the time you get to 500, it is as unplayable as any other action based PvP game. Set yourself up a slow connection to a Planetside 2 server and find out for yourself.
For as long as the examples above exist with the ping they often have, there remains a place for tab targeting in MMO's.
You seem to have discounted the most important point I made in my post - that different gameplay features attract different gamers.
If Intrepid go 100% action combat, they lose the MMO audience for the most part. Instead, they try to attract the audience that currently play Overwatch, Pubg or Fortnite - or any one of dozens of second rate BR games that are around now.
While that audience is large, the market for games with the style of gameplay those players want is over saturated right now. Making an action game right now is like making a WoW clone back in 2008 - massive audience, but you're too late to the party. And lets not even look at the dysfunction of trying to get a 100% action combat system feeling anything other than tacked on to a game that is a foll on, time investment heavy MMORPG rather than the short bursts of instant gratification gameplay that action combat based games usually offer, and action combat gamers play (remembering that a bulk of MMO players would just pass on the game).
Trying to compete head to head with the current BR's is absolutely futile. Trying to attract a small portion of those players that may want a deeper gameplay experience, however, is good business.