AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I liked a lot of the combat in Wildstar. There was a lot I didn’t like but the combat was good. I really liked the grids that would go on the ground before attacks so that you knew where to direct your attacks. It was twitchy without being all-out FPS style.
(Not that I hate FPS, I’ve been playing Borderlands 3 like crazy lately.)
Honestly, this thread is a great example of why I'm more excited for Ashes than for any other MMO right now.
I hate FPS games, I'm not a big fan of twitch based combat, yet Ashes is a game where I should be able to build a character that works for me, and play along side someone that hates tab targeting and methodical, purposeful builds in favor of twitch based action combat.
If Intrepid pull off their combat system, this game will have a bigger potential interested audience than any other MMO.
Hey man, I love methodical, purposeful builds.
I just think that it's frankly more fun to do it in an action setting.
In an action setting, your aim is more important than your build.
I've yet to see an action game where the build of your character is nearly as important as your build in a tab target (or turn based RPG for that matter).
I mean, some games have builds that are better or worse than other builds, but in all cases the build takes a back seat to other factors.
Hey man, I love methodical, purposeful builds.
I just think that it's frankly more fun to do it in an action setting.
In an action setting, your aim is more important than your build.
I've yet to see an action game where the build of your character is nearly as important as your build in a tab target (or turn based RPG for that matter).
I mean, some games have builds that are better or worse than other builds, but in all cases the build takes a back seat to other factors.
Hey man, I love methodical, purposeful builds.
I just think that it's frankly more fun to do it in an action setting.
In an action setting, your aim is more important than your build.
I've yet to see an action game where the build of your character is nearly as important as your build in a tab target (or turn based RPG for that matter).
I mean, some games have builds that are better or worse than other builds, but in all cases the build takes a back seat to other factors.
You never played Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Correct.
I tend to stay away from online games if it is obvious to me that they are going to have a short life.
That said, my understanding of that game is that you can still miss a target. If you can miss because you didn't aim, then the build is not the most important factor.
I want to point out again though, I'm not against action combat. I prefer and will use tab target based builds as long as they are viable for the characters I want to play, but I appreciate the fact that people that will use action based builds are able to play the same game.
As long as both are equal with each other (which means players need to have a way to excel in both, and way to fail at both, but generally be balanced with each other), then all is well imo.
I'd say it's just on par with action combat. A lot of people here are decade old mmorpg veterans and if you just completely take away tab targeting that would be just a huge outrage from them.
On the other hand since lots of them have families and jobs they won't be grinding 24/7 like the younger audience could. There's literally no game that has a large playerbase that's young and growing that is only tab targeting. It is old and objectively slow paced and allows for less skill to be shown in games. Hence why no esports are tab targeted or anything like that.
There's a good balance to be had, people have their preferences and opinions and they're allowed to have those. Personally I like action combat more because it feels more involved, impactful and more skillful.
You still have to manage rotations and everything but you also add another element of aiming and timing and stuff like that into the mix. It allows for better players to shine even more.
Tab targeting's plus side for me would be, say I have one or two tab targeted abilities that I know will always 100% hit because I don't have to aim them. That's good consistent damage and would allow someone to farm something very easily because you wouldn't even have to be looking to be doing damage.
I think for what AoC is trying to be, revitalizing the MMORPG genre it NEEDS action combat. Younger players just in majority aren't interested in tab targeted only combat. That's clear through every popular game or esport or other gaming genre. You can't always appeal to the veteran mmorpg fans because most of them will be busy a lot of the time anyway. The game should of course have tab and action combat, and by no means am I saying add building and chug jugs and appeal to 12 year olds but.. appealing to a younger audience is still key to growing the genre at all, otherwise you never will.
I'd say it's just on par with action combat. A lot of people here are decade old mmorpg veterans and if you just completely take away tab targeting that would be just a huge outrage from them.
On the other hand since lots of them have families and jobs they won't be grinding 24/7 like the younger audience could. There's literally no game that has a large playerbase that's young and growing that is only tab targeting. It is old and objectively slow paced and allows for less skill to be shown in games. Hence why no esports are tab targeted or anything like that.
There's a good balance to be had, people have their preferences and opinions and they're allowed to have those. Personally I like action combat more because it feels more involved, impactful and more skillful.
You still have to manage rotations and everything but you also add another element of aiming and timing and stuff like that into the mix. It allows for better players to shine even more.
Tab targeting's plus side for me would be, say I have one or two tab targeted abilities that I know will always 100% hit because I don't have to aim them. That's good consistent damage and would allow someone to farm something very easily because you wouldn't even have to be looking to be doing damage.
I think for what AoC is trying to be, revitalizing the MMORPG genre it NEEDS action combat. Younger players just in majority aren't interested in tab targeted only combat. That's clear through every popular game or esport or other gaming genre. You can't always appeal to the veteran mmorpg fans because most of them will be busy a lot of the time anyway. The game should of course have tab and action combat, and by no means am I saying add building and chug jugs and appeal to 12 year olds but.. appealing to a younger audience is still key to growing the genre at all, otherwise you never will.
@Poko very true. Btw just ignore BCG xd (regarding his comments on the entitled 'tab target only' post) The dude is a mess and has a weird obsession with 'kids'. The game will play very similarly to APOC (castle sieges) for people that have 'action stance' and mostly action based skills. By similar I mean in the basic sense (aiming, some mechanics and the intended action play-style in general).The hybrid combat will be something more related to people that really want to go 50-50 in which case many issues arise (camera movements\distance, crosshair and the feel of the combat). Yes neither can go 100% action\tab however. one can make his\her play style 'feel' like one or the other. e.g. people who want to go action having 'action stance' with only few tab target abilities that don't affect the play-style that much and vice versa in which case people with tab target majority using a wide camera (traditional MMO camera view - something like FFXIV), having many tab based abilities with only AoEs + some that requires occasional aiming (e.g a hard CC ability etc)
@Magic Man What's up with BCG ? I don't think I read over many posts over there, I just leave my opinion and get out before it gets too bad cx
Yea I just can't imagine what it'll be like if they go back to pure tab targeting. I was just making the argument that intrepid is wanting to "Revitalize" the genre but In my opinion I really don't think a tab targeted only game could do that. It mostly appeals to the veterans of the genre. I was just saying to expand the genre you'd have to appeal to a younger audience too, like for me I'm 18 and haven't played a single mmorpg along with all my friends. 18 isn't even young either considering all things looking at fornite players and stuff lol. You don't see any hugely large games with only slow tab targeting only. Not a single one, and mmorpgs aren't the most popular genre to begin with so only appealing to veterans and keeping the community even smaller that way wouldn't be wise.
Just my thoughts though ~ ! If you're going to revitalize the genre and try to bring new people into it, I feel like you HAVE to have action combat. I get exactly what you're saying, there should be choice and if both are good then there should be no problems for either party.. hopefully !
The point I'm trying to make is if they wind up switching back to tab target only, the game could only possibly ever be big in terms of "MMORPG" standards. There's so much less room for so many mechanics when you take away action combat that it just drives away sooo many people, and if you took away tab it would drive away the hardcore mmorpg audience so it's hard to win. I really really hope they stick with the hybrid, because if they do and manage to get it right it could be game changing for the genre !
I wish they just scrapped tab target and come up with a unique combat system. I think it isn't a matter of tab or action. It is about how well gaming companies can adopt to 2020 and onwards. Tab target is old and needs to go.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I wish they just scrapped tab target and come up with a unique combat system. I think it isn't a matter of tab or action. It is about how well gaming companies can adopt to 2020 and onwards. Tab target is old and needs to go.
So's my granddad but I dont want to get rid of him
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
So's my granddad but I dont want to get rid of him [/quote]
Okay, this was a good one. Not gonna lie 😂. Still, I agree with Irsha and some other people here. It is a really old system...I get why people like it tho. If it is a must-have feature, at least make it similar to Guild Wars 2 which imo has the best tab targeting. Other than that, just make a great action based system.
I wish they just scrapped tab target and come up with a unique combat system. I think it isn't a matter of tab or action. It is about how well gaming companies can adopt to 2020 and onwards. Tab target is old and needs to go.
There's literally no game that has a large playerbase that's young and growing that is only tab targeting. It is old and objectively slow paced and allows for less skill to be shown in games. Hence why no esports are tab targeted or anything like that.
You are actually right here, but you probably wish you weren't.
Action combat absolutely allows players to show more "skill" in game play. That doesn't mean they take more skill, just that they allow that skill to be shown more easily.
Young people like showing off. They like doing what ever the cool thing is. This is why the game that will always be most popular with 13 - 18 year olds will be the game that allows them to do the "coolest" thing the easiest.
Right now, that is Battle Royale games. This also extends to Twitch and such, the simpler the game is to understand, the more people there will be watching it.
Skill in a tab target MMO is harder to show, because there is far, FAR more going on in one than there is in the average action based game. In a Battle Royale game, a child can show their child peers how cool the thing they just did was, and what they did will be blatantly obvious because it will be the only thing happening on the screen at the time.
In a tab target MMO though, in order to be able to show the cool thing you just did, the person you are showing needs to have a fairly in depth understanding of the game you are playing, the class you are playing, the classes that assisted you in the cool thing you just did, and (in PvE) the encounter you were up against when you did that cool thing.
Basically, understanding a cool thing in a Battle Royale game is simple, understanding a cool thing in a tab target MMO is not.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There's literally no game that has a large playerbase that's young and growing that is only tab targeting. It is old and objectively slow paced and allows for less skill to be shown in games. Hence why no esports are tab targeted or anything like that.
You are actually right here, but you probably wish you weren't.
Action combat absolutely allows players to show more "skill" in game play. That doesn't mean they take more skill, just that they allow that skill to be shown more easily.
Young people like showing off. They like doing what ever the cool thing is. This is why the game that will always be most popular with 13 - 18 year olds will be the game that allows them to do the "coolest" thing the easiest.
Right now, that is Battle Royale games. This also extends to Twitch and such, the simpler the game is to understand, the more people there will be watching it.
Skill in a tab target MMO is harder to show, because there is far, FAR more going on in one than there is in the average action based game. In a Battle Royale game, a child can show their child peers how cool the thing they just did was, and what they did will be blatantly obvious because it will be the only thing happening on the screen at the time.
In a tab target MMO though, in order to be able to show the cool thing you just did, the person you are showing needs to have a fairly in depth understanding of the game you are playing, the class you are playing, the classes that assisted you in the cool thing you just did, and (in PvE) the encounter you were up against when you did that cool thing.
Basically, understanding a cool thing in a Battle Royale game is simple, understanding a cool thing in a tab target MMO is not.
You are comparing games that use tab system against games that use free aim systems, not the mechanics of each system (free aim vs tab).
This is one of those logical traps i see people fall into in this conversation.
The skill in the tab game you are talking about more likely is coming from other aspects of the combat and not the fact it's tab. There is no skill in tab that couldn't be replicated in a free aim system. Any tab system could be made more "skillful" in a free aim system as tab is locked down. All tab means is your abilities go to the character you are targeting where in a free aim system, your skills are going to where you are aiming.
Whatever tab game you are talking about here, could be made more "skillful" if you converted all skills to free aim skills as you would still have the whatever skill that existed before but now there is an additional step to execution as you also need to aim.
Basically, there is no cool thing in a tab target system that couldn't be replicated in a free aim system.
This is one of those logical traps i see people fall into in this conversation.
The thing is, each decision in a game shapes future decisions.
If you decide to go action based combat, that means there are a few things you have to do, and a few things you can't do. If you go tab targeting, there are likewise a few things you have to do, and a few things you can't do.
You can't just look at the targeting of each system in isolation, you need to look at what that targeting system means for what happens downstream from there.
Both good tab targeting and good action combat can fully engage players (to be honest, I've yet to see an action combat based game which fully engages me in PvE, I just know it's possible). Players focus on slightly different things in each system. In an action game, that is getting the perfect aim. In a tab target game, that is getting the perfect ability priority (not rotation - if you are playing a tab target game where a simple rotation is sufficient, you re playing a poor tab target game that should not be used as a general example of them).
If players need to have perfect aim while also getting the right ability priority with no appreciable gap between abilities, the game would then be putting too much on to players for the bulk to be able to be as effective as the developers would otherwise have thought (the more you have to do, the less well you are able to do each thing).
In such a case, the developer would then need to lower their expectation of what players can do. Rather than assuming 80% efficiency (reasonable to assume with only one factor to take in to account), they would need to assume an efficiency of maybe 60 - 70%. In this situation, a responsible developer wanting a game with some sort of balance would then also need to put an artificial cap on how effective the very occasional player that manages to get the perfect aim, always with the right ability and always in the fastest possible time can actually be.
Developers could make a game that assumes a level of competence that players simply don't have. That is 100% possible. However, it is also 100% stupid.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I feel like you are exaggerating your aim argument. You are trying to make it sound like aiming takes 100% of focus all the time which isn't true. You aren't going to be constantly re-aligning your cursor. An easy example is destiny. In raid/dungeon content, aiming isn't the hard part. Another example is tera where you had rotations. The fact you had to aim didn't make combat so hard that people couldn't focus on rotations.
In free aim systems, not all abilities have to require pinpoint accuracy to use. The OP gave a good example of this with overwatch where you have some characters that require precise aim to do damage and others that don't. I don't care how good a shot you are, a tracer isn't going take out a winston with good aim alone.
The Designers can make abilities and weapons that vary in difficulty to use. They can have precise skills like archery but then also have skills that are easier to use like aoe fireballs. Melee already doesn't require much effort to aim.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think of games like The Witcher series. It’s action combat but doesn’t require FPS skills. And that game had most of what we’d expect from Ashes; melee combat, ranged attacks, magic, and so on. You didn’t really need to be great at aiming but it was more than “select your target, get in range, hit button”. It can be done well and be exciting without requiring advanced twitch skills.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I still say we make ashes turn-based
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I think of games like The Witcher series. It’s action combat but doesn’t require FPS skills. And that game had most of what we’d expect from Ashes; melee combat, ranged attacks, magic, and so on. You didn’t really need to be great at aiming but it was more than “select your target, get in range, hit button”. It can be done well and be exciting without requiring advanced twitch skills.
Fully agreed.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As a player who likes healing, I will be horrified if there are no tab type abilities to heal. Trying to target someone who is bouncing around trying to avoid being hit will be a pain in the neck (and wrist). Likewise, say you are a summoner. Do you really want to have to manually aim to cast a buff on your pet? There are many more scenarios where manual aiming will be problematic.
For melee, I completely get the action combat. More skill means better fighter.
For support (and partially for ranged), no tab will decimate the populations. We will probably end up with servers filled with melee characters with the random ranged / support here and there.
Turn based would really help with aiming as nobody would move until everyone had clicked the 'next turn' button!
I feel like you are exaggerating your aim argument. You are trying to make it sound like aiming takes 100% of focus all the time which isn't true
Not really what I'm saying.
I was going to draw up a line graph in paint, but paint + trackpad is just not fun, and I assume you're able to visualize the graph based on the following anyways.
So, basic line graph, percent of cognitive function used to aim on the side, percent of cognitive function used for other tasks (timing, ability selection, positioning etc) on the bottom, both on a scale from 0 - 100%.
Now imagine a line from the top left to the bottom right of the graph. This line signifies 100% of cognitive function used.
Now imagine placing a dot in the exact point for any given game based on what it asks of players.
A full on FPS like Doom would be right at the top left hand side, it is all about aiming, and virtually nothing else matters.
A full on tab target based MMO like EQ/EQ2 would be at the bottom right, aiming is literally not even a thing, but there are other tasks you have to put your brain to in place of having to aim.
Any given combat system can be at any point along the line illustrated above (or below it if the game is more casual focused).
I mean, sure, you can make aiming less important in a game, and in doing so if you want to keep players interested you then fill in that gap with something else for the players to do or think about.
In every example of an action based game you can possibly throw at me where targeting isn't the absolute only thing to think about, the developers have then given players something else to think about in it's place.
A tab target based game is just the extreme end of that. Targeting has been completely removed, and in it;s place the developers have given players other things to think about that take up the same level of cognitive function.
So I'm not at all disagreeing that a game can be made where targeting is important, but not 100% important - and that isn't an argument that I have attempted to make.
My argument is that this statement;
Any tab system could be made more "skillful" in a free aim system as tab is locked down. All tab means is your abilities go to the character you are targeting where in a free aim system, your skills are going to where you are aiming.
... is an utter load of shit, and you should know better than to make such statements.
I feel like you are exaggerating your aim argument. You are trying to make it sound like aiming takes 100% of focus all the time which isn't true
Not really what I'm saying.
I was going to draw up a line graph in paint, but paint + trackpad is just not fun, and I assume you're able to visualize the graph based on the following anyways.
So, basic line graph, percent of cognitive function used to aim on the side, percent of cognitive function used for other tasks (timing, ability selection, positioning etc) on the bottom, both on a scale from 0 - 100%.
Now imagine a line from the top left to the bottom right of the graph. This line signifies 100% of cognitive function used.
Now imagine placing a dot in the exact point for any given game based on what it asks of players.
A full on FPS like Doom would be right at the top left hand side, it is all about aiming, and virtually nothing else matters.
A full on tab target based MMO like EQ/EQ2 would be at the bottom right, aiming is literally not even a thing, but there are other tasks you have to put your brain to in place of having to aim.
Any given combat system can be at any point along the line illustrated above (or below it if the game is more casual focused).
I mean, sure, you can make aiming less important in a game, and in doing so if you want to keep players interested you then fill in that gap with something else for the players to do or think about.
In every example of an action based game you can possibly throw at me where targeting isn't the absolute only thing to think about, the developers have then given players something else to think about in it's place.
A tab target based game is just the extreme end of that. Targeting has been completely removed, and in it;s place the developers have given players other things to think about that take up the same level of cognitive function.
So I'm not at all disagreeing that a game can be made where targeting is important, but not 100% important - and that isn't an argument that I have attempted to make.
My argument is that this statement;
Any tab system could be made more "skillful" in a free aim system as tab is locked down. All tab means is your abilities go to the character you are targeting where in a free aim system, your skills are going to where you are aiming.
... is an utter load of shit, and you should know better than to make such statements.
Exactly. Also, it is a fact that action based games increases the activity of certain parts of the brain as they heavily rely on reflexes and strategic thinking (despite what tab target fans suggests; 'tAb iS mOrE sTrAtEgIc').
I'm not sure why the default comparison of action combat is Fortnite, that's an Shooter. Everything that is in TAB TARGET you can have with action combat, but it will add another layer of skill and complexity.
Instead of not even having to touch your mouse, and just manage rotations and stuff with action combat there are certain abilities you have to aim, so that requires good reflexes and more awareness and focus. EVEN so, you can STILL have rotations and timings in this system, I don't see why people think that isn't possible.
Action combat does take more skill, I can't see who could disagree with that. If you have two mmorpgs and they both have the same exact boss. One of the games is tab and the other is action combat, the action combat game WILL be harder because you will have to aim those abilities instead of only having to target the boss you are fighting. It both allows you to show more skill, and actually have more mechanical skill .
That is why mmorpgs aren't a popular genre. They're limited by veterans like @selo just ignoring any valid argument and preaching for old tab targeting ways. I just look at it from intrepids goal of expanding the genre. I'm just saying that in having a tab target system, it will never expand. That is evidently shown by the decades of stagnation in the genre and the most popular mmorpg being older than most people playing games.
I'm not sure why the default comparison of action combat is Fortnite, that's an Shooter. Everything that is in TAB TARGET you can have with action combat, but it will add another layer of skill and complexity.
Instead of not even having to touch your mouse, and just manage rotations and stuff with action combat there are certain abilities you have to aim, so that requires good reflexes and more awareness and focus. EVEN so, you can STILL have rotations and timings in this system, I don't see why people think that isn't possible.
Action combat does take more skill, I can't see who could disagree with that. If you have two mmorpgs and they both have the same exact boss. One of the games is tab and the other is action combat, the action combat game WILL be harder because you will have to aim those abilities instead of only having to target the boss you are fighting. It both allows you to show more skill, and actually have more mechanical skill .
That is why mmorpgs aren't a popular genre. They're limited by veterans like @selo just ignoring any valid argument and preaching for old tab targeting ways. I just look at it from intrepids goal of expanding the genre. I'm just saying that in having a tab target system, it will never expand. That is evidently shown by the decades of stagnation in the genre and the most popular mmorpg being older than most people playing games.
- ping. Not all players have same ping, this will dictate how "fast" the action combat is
- dodge. If I say Dark souls, and you played it, each and every one of you will me familiar with this clip
Comments
(Not that I hate FPS, I’ve been playing Borderlands 3 like crazy lately.)
I hate FPS games, I'm not a big fan of twitch based combat, yet Ashes is a game where I should be able to build a character that works for me, and play along side someone that hates tab targeting and methodical, purposeful builds in favor of twitch based action combat.
If Intrepid pull off their combat system, this game will have a bigger potential interested audience than any other MMO.
I just think that it's frankly more fun to do it in an action setting.
In an action setting, your aim is more important than your build.
I've yet to see an action game where the build of your character is nearly as important as your build in a tab target (or turn based RPG for that matter).
I mean, some games have builds that are better or worse than other builds, but in all cases the build takes a back seat to other factors.
You never played Darkfall: Unholy Wars
I tend to stay away from online games if it is obvious to me that they are going to have a short life.
That said, my understanding of that game is that you can still miss a target. If you can miss because you didn't aim, then the build is not the most important factor.
I want to point out again though, I'm not against action combat. I prefer and will use tab target based builds as long as they are viable for the characters I want to play, but I appreciate the fact that people that will use action based builds are able to play the same game.
As long as both are equal with each other (which means players need to have a way to excel in both, and way to fail at both, but generally be balanced with each other), then all is well imo.
On the other hand since lots of them have families and jobs they won't be grinding 24/7 like the younger audience could. There's literally no game that has a large playerbase that's young and growing that is only tab targeting. It is old and objectively slow paced and allows for less skill to be shown in games. Hence why no esports are tab targeted or anything like that.
There's a good balance to be had, people have their preferences and opinions and they're allowed to have those. Personally I like action combat more because it feels more involved, impactful and more skillful.
You still have to manage rotations and everything but you also add another element of aiming and timing and stuff like that into the mix. It allows for better players to shine even more.
Tab targeting's plus side for me would be, say I have one or two tab targeted abilities that I know will always 100% hit because I don't have to aim them. That's good consistent damage and would allow someone to farm something very easily because you wouldn't even have to be looking to be doing damage.
I think for what AoC is trying to be, revitalizing the MMORPG genre it NEEDS action combat. Younger players just in majority aren't interested in tab targeted only combat. That's clear through every popular game or esport or other gaming genre. You can't always appeal to the veteran mmorpg fans because most of them will be busy a lot of the time anyway. The game should of course have tab and action combat, and by no means am I saying add building and chug jugs and appeal to 12 year olds but.. appealing to a younger audience is still key to growing the genre at all, otherwise you never will.
@Poko very true. Btw just ignore BCG xd (regarding his comments on the entitled 'tab target only' post) The dude is a mess and has a weird obsession with 'kids'. The game will play very similarly to APOC (castle sieges) for people that have 'action stance' and mostly action based skills. By similar I mean in the basic sense (aiming, some mechanics and the intended action play-style in general).The hybrid combat will be something more related to people that really want to go 50-50 in which case many issues arise (camera movements\distance, crosshair and the feel of the combat). Yes neither can go 100% action\tab however. one can make his\her play style 'feel' like one or the other. e.g. people who want to go action having 'action stance' with only few tab target abilities that don't affect the play-style that much and vice versa in which case people with tab target majority using a wide camera (traditional MMO camera view - something like FFXIV), having many tab based abilities with only AoEs + some that requires occasional aiming (e.g a hard CC ability etc)
Yea I just can't imagine what it'll be like if they go back to pure tab targeting. I was just making the argument that intrepid is wanting to "Revitalize" the genre but In my opinion I really don't think a tab targeted only game could do that. It mostly appeals to the veterans of the genre. I was just saying to expand the genre you'd have to appeal to a younger audience too, like for me I'm 18 and haven't played a single mmorpg along with all my friends. 18 isn't even young either considering all things looking at fornite players and stuff lol. You don't see any hugely large games with only slow tab targeting only. Not a single one, and mmorpgs aren't the most popular genre to begin with so only appealing to veterans and keeping the community even smaller that way wouldn't be wise.
Just my thoughts though ~ ! If you're going to revitalize the genre and try to bring new people into it, I feel like you HAVE to have action combat. I get exactly what you're saying, there should be choice and if both are good then there should be no problems for either party.. hopefully !
The point I'm trying to make is if they wind up switching back to tab target only, the game could only possibly ever be big in terms of "MMORPG" standards. There's so much less room for so many mechanics when you take away action combat that it just drives away sooo many people, and if you took away tab it would drive away the hardcore mmorpg audience so it's hard to win. I really really hope they stick with the hybrid, because if they do and manage to get it right it could be game changing for the genre !
Too much salt on your popcorn, you might get a heart attack.
So's my granddad but I dont want to get rid of him
So's my granddad but I dont want to get rid of him [/quote]
Okay, this was a good one. Not gonna lie 😂. Still, I agree with Irsha and some other people here. It is a really old system...I get why people like it tho. If it is a must-have feature, at least make it similar to Guild Wars 2 which imo has the best tab targeting. Other than that, just make a great action based system.
Fortnite FPS is that way ---->
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
eww it is that mentally challenged guy from the other post. shoo shooo
Action combat absolutely allows players to show more "skill" in game play. That doesn't mean they take more skill, just that they allow that skill to be shown more easily.
Young people like showing off. They like doing what ever the cool thing is. This is why the game that will always be most popular with 13 - 18 year olds will be the game that allows them to do the "coolest" thing the easiest.
Right now, that is Battle Royale games. This also extends to Twitch and such, the simpler the game is to understand, the more people there will be watching it.
Skill in a tab target MMO is harder to show, because there is far, FAR more going on in one than there is in the average action based game. In a Battle Royale game, a child can show their child peers how cool the thing they just did was, and what they did will be blatantly obvious because it will be the only thing happening on the screen at the time.
In a tab target MMO though, in order to be able to show the cool thing you just did, the person you are showing needs to have a fairly in depth understanding of the game you are playing, the class you are playing, the classes that assisted you in the cool thing you just did, and (in PvE) the encounter you were up against when you did that cool thing.
Basically, understanding a cool thing in a Battle Royale game is simple, understanding a cool thing in a tab target MMO is not.
You are comparing games that use tab system against games that use free aim systems, not the mechanics of each system (free aim vs tab).
This is one of those logical traps i see people fall into in this conversation.
The skill in the tab game you are talking about more likely is coming from other aspects of the combat and not the fact it's tab. There is no skill in tab that couldn't be replicated in a free aim system. Any tab system could be made more "skillful" in a free aim system as tab is locked down. All tab means is your abilities go to the character you are targeting where in a free aim system, your skills are going to where you are aiming.
Whatever tab game you are talking about here, could be made more "skillful" if you converted all skills to free aim skills as you would still have the whatever skill that existed before but now there is an additional step to execution as you also need to aim.
Basically, there is no cool thing in a tab target system that couldn't be replicated in a free aim system.
If you decide to go action based combat, that means there are a few things you have to do, and a few things you can't do. If you go tab targeting, there are likewise a few things you have to do, and a few things you can't do.
You can't just look at the targeting of each system in isolation, you need to look at what that targeting system means for what happens downstream from there.
Both good tab targeting and good action combat can fully engage players (to be honest, I've yet to see an action combat based game which fully engages me in PvE, I just know it's possible). Players focus on slightly different things in each system. In an action game, that is getting the perfect aim. In a tab target game, that is getting the perfect ability priority (not rotation - if you are playing a tab target game where a simple rotation is sufficient, you re playing a poor tab target game that should not be used as a general example of them).
If players need to have perfect aim while also getting the right ability priority with no appreciable gap between abilities, the game would then be putting too much on to players for the bulk to be able to be as effective as the developers would otherwise have thought (the more you have to do, the less well you are able to do each thing).
In such a case, the developer would then need to lower their expectation of what players can do. Rather than assuming 80% efficiency (reasonable to assume with only one factor to take in to account), they would need to assume an efficiency of maybe 60 - 70%. In this situation, a responsible developer wanting a game with some sort of balance would then also need to put an artificial cap on how effective the very occasional player that manages to get the perfect aim, always with the right ability and always in the fastest possible time can actually be.
Developers could make a game that assumes a level of competence that players simply don't have. That is 100% possible. However, it is also 100% stupid.
In free aim systems, not all abilities have to require pinpoint accuracy to use. The OP gave a good example of this with overwatch where you have some characters that require precise aim to do damage and others that don't. I don't care how good a shot you are, a tracer isn't going take out a winston with good aim alone.
The Designers can make abilities and weapons that vary in difficulty to use. They can have precise skills like archery but then also have skills that are easier to use like aoe fireballs. Melee already doesn't require much effort to aim.
Fully agreed.
For melee, I completely get the action combat. More skill means better fighter.
For support (and partially for ranged), no tab will decimate the populations. We will probably end up with servers filled with melee characters with the random ranged / support here and there.
Turn based would really help with aiming as nobody would move until everyone had clicked the 'next turn' button!
I was going to draw up a line graph in paint, but paint + trackpad is just not fun, and I assume you're able to visualize the graph based on the following anyways.
So, basic line graph, percent of cognitive function used to aim on the side, percent of cognitive function used for other tasks (timing, ability selection, positioning etc) on the bottom, both on a scale from 0 - 100%.
Now imagine a line from the top left to the bottom right of the graph. This line signifies 100% of cognitive function used.
Now imagine placing a dot in the exact point for any given game based on what it asks of players.
A full on FPS like Doom would be right at the top left hand side, it is all about aiming, and virtually nothing else matters.
A full on tab target based MMO like EQ/EQ2 would be at the bottom right, aiming is literally not even a thing, but there are other tasks you have to put your brain to in place of having to aim.
Any given combat system can be at any point along the line illustrated above (or below it if the game is more casual focused).
I mean, sure, you can make aiming less important in a game, and in doing so if you want to keep players interested you then fill in that gap with something else for the players to do or think about.
In every example of an action based game you can possibly throw at me where targeting isn't the absolute only thing to think about, the developers have then given players something else to think about in it's place.
A tab target based game is just the extreme end of that. Targeting has been completely removed, and in it;s place the developers have given players other things to think about that take up the same level of cognitive function.
So I'm not at all disagreeing that a game can be made where targeting is important, but not 100% important - and that isn't an argument that I have attempted to make.
My argument is that this statement; ... is an utter load of shit, and you should know better than to make such statements.
Exactly. Also, it is a fact that action based games increases the activity of certain parts of the brain as they heavily rely on reflexes and strategic thinking (despite what tab target fans suggests; 'tAb iS mOrE sTrAtEgIc').
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/12/171212102158.htm
I'm not sure why the default comparison of action combat is Fortnite, that's an Shooter. Everything that is in TAB TARGET you can have with action combat, but it will add another layer of skill and complexity.
Instead of not even having to touch your mouse, and just manage rotations and stuff with action combat there are certain abilities you have to aim, so that requires good reflexes and more awareness and focus. EVEN so, you can STILL have rotations and timings in this system, I don't see why people think that isn't possible.
Action combat does take more skill, I can't see who could disagree with that. If you have two mmorpgs and they both have the same exact boss. One of the games is tab and the other is action combat, the action combat game WILL be harder because you will have to aim those abilities instead of only having to target the boss you are fighting. It both allows you to show more skill, and actually have more mechanical skill .
That is why mmorpgs aren't a popular genre. They're limited by veterans like @selo just ignoring any valid argument and preaching for old tab targeting ways. I just look at it from intrepids goal of expanding the genre. I'm just saying that in having a tab target system, it will never expand. That is evidently shown by the decades of stagnation in the genre and the most popular mmorpg being older than most people playing games.
That is true as well
- ping. Not all players have same ping, this will dictate how "fast" the action combat is
- dodge. If I say Dark souls, and you played it, each and every one of you will me familiar with this clip