If combat log and post analysis is kept and is going to be in the release version of the game then there is no "real" need for DPS meters - I can understand the notion that ppl don't want to be judged by a number in everyone's UI
If I will be able to dissect the logs to find out what customization options are best for every situation (groups of situations) then I don't see any problem with DPS meters being absent. After all they are a distraction from the actual fight
If combat log and post analysis is kept and is going to be in the release version of the game then there is no "real" need for DPS meters - I can understand the notion that ppl don't want to be judged by a number in everyone's UI
If I will be able to dissect the logs to find out what customization options are best for every situation (groups of situations) then I don't see any problem with DPS meters being absent. After all they are a distraction from the actual fight
You make some good points but if DPS meters are distraction, then you don't have to look at it Why deny it for others? Let people play however they want to play. I am not saying you personally want to deny it
I'm in favor of performance displays in game. AOC looks like it rewards for the effort/skill you put into the game so having a meter seems logical.
I'm not sure why there are lots of people asking it to be your own performance only, this seems pointless to me.
My biggest improvements in other MMO's have been by comparing my damage to similar item/class players who are out performing me and looking at the differences. These players are usually open to discussion about game play which increases the community aspect of the game.
Well I think the only problem people have with DPS meters is the ability to see the DPS of others. So yeah if AoC would implement personalized real-time DPS meter only of the player and not others around him - then that would be non intrusive for everyone
I see what you mean when AoC has pretty much already mitigated a lot of the possible negativity that can come from a tracker but if the tracker isn't really being used to get rid of people that are under performing in the raid then why do you even need a tracker. Like I mentioned before, the right way to use a tracker would be to easily find out who is not doing so well. After finding that out the tracker doesn't really help as to why that player isn't doing so well because the tracker doesn't provide any extra details and not having a tracker to begin with doesn't necessarily make it more difficult to find out who is struggling.
Using a tracker, it is not at all hard to figure out why a particular player may not be performing as well as expected, based on class, build, gear and content. A good combat tracker will give you a complete breakdown of what abilities that player used, which is the only other variable left.
As an example, if someone with a similar build is using a particular ability to get 30% of their damage output, and this player is only getting 10% of their damage output from that ability, this is an easy thing to point out to them. You don't (can't, really) tell them exactly how to do that, you just tell them that there is more damage for them to do over all by making better use of that specific ability.
Having any sort of tracker in the game, even after all the things that AoC has already done to prevent possible negativity that can come from them, will still inevitably bring in negativity. How? well even though the system with no LFG discourages kicking a party member just like that due to the time it would take to find someone else, many guilds will still do it because they still don't know any better. You said it yourself, it's not about the tracker it's about the people.
Here is the question though; would that happen any more if a combat tracker is present or not?
From what I have seen, the answer is a blatant no. People don't need objective data to treat others with disrespect, some people just do that. Even if these players don't have access to a combat tracker, they will exclude others simply due to the class the play, or the race/class combo, or gear, or lack of the right achievement.
It absolutely is about the people, not the tracker - and the people will do this with or without the tracker.
If Ashes launches with a combat tracker built in to it, there absolutely will be players that use it as an excuse to exclude someone. Thing is, those players were always going to exclude someone, because it makes them feel big. You can't stop that by removing one of the dozens of avenues in which they will use to attribute blame.
The tracker just gives those people an easy excuse to kick someone. While that negativity is mitigated by AoC because of how the game works compared to say WoW, I still see no positives to having a tracker. Some will argue that it helps them theory craft builds and such but adding a DPS dummy that only you use at your house or something would be much better for that.
It is no easier than looking at someones race/class combo, or the gear they are wearing. It is only slightly harder than looking at their class and noticing they don't have the ability that you think that class should have, or the augment on that ability that you think they should have.
People will find a way to exclude others - at least for the first few months in Ashes when they start to learn that excluding others is not an overly successful way to play a game where personal in game relationships matter.
Todays newbie is tomorrows veteran.
So I do agree that trackers in AoC would be much better handled than in a game like WoW but there's still no positives that I see, only negatives. Am I missing something here?
The main two positives of a combat tracker being in a game like Ashes are that builds that get posted to forums and such can be peer reviewed to ensure they are actually suited to their stated purpose, and are actually good builds; and that players can (and will) bug check the game to a far greater degree than any developer ever could.
To the first of those, I've seen builds posted that are actual rubbish. The kind of thing that if people follow, they won't even make it to max level in the games in question. Fortunately, these builds were in games that had combat trackers, so I and several others were able to correct this.
If these builds are not challenged, people new to the game - or just people that don't enjoy making their own builds - will come along, see the build posted and assume it's good. This is a valid assumption to make, as in every single game out there, all builds that are posted are able to be scrutinized, publically.
Take away combat trackers, and make it so their use isn't able to be discussed, and you have a situation where it is much harder to talk about builds. Not impossible, but much harder.
To the second point above, I have yet to play an MMO where players haven't used a combat tracker to point to issues in the game that are then fixed. Some of the issues are minor (an ability tool tip being inaccurate), but some of them are large and impact literally every aspect of the game (I've seen two games with the same issue in the games RNG system - which literally affects everything in the game).
While exploring the games systems and how things work, players are far more likely to spot these kinds of issues that even the largest QA team.
In terms of good poitns to combat trackers, I am specifically keeping out of their use in top end content. This is a thing people either know, or can't have explained to them. So the examples I have provided here are all non-combat uses for combat trackers. There are others, of course (allowing for a more open meta, as an example), but I'm not keen on typing that much, and I'm sure no one is keen on reading that much.
If you want player skill quantifying mods you're the cancer killing MMOs. You don't realise it, but you're 80 iq or lower.
The cancer killing MMO's is games that have systems in place that allow players to treat other players as disposable entities.
Edit to point out the irony of this post being somewhat toxic, while complaining that other people are toxic.
Only from your point of view. Since you can't understand the wonder of an MMO being relative to how open it's systems are to viewing, and think it's only about toxicity instead of something more like immersion/discovery/wonder.
Also, toxicity is healthy. Every now and then you need a good ol'glass of stfu. Here it comes, open wide.
To be perfectly fair, the means by which I have proposed the addition of a combat tracker to Ashes will have absolutely no impact on the game play of people that don't want to use it.
If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to.
However, I also believe the opposite is true. How you want to play the game should not in any way impact on how I want to play.
I'd be interested to hear any reason as to why you think that shouldn't be the case - why one way of playing should take preference when there is a way for both to have their way.
If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to.
It's not just about discovering it our own "pace". It's about discovering it at a pace that lets us (as a community) naturally evolve through the discovery of mechanics / metas etc. (Everyone needs to be on the same pace as well, else it's pointless and devolves into Classic WoW anyhow). DPS meters just break that shit entirely. If you clearly know what is the highest DPS ability on day 1 there's literally no testing or arguments that are done by the playerbase. It's just set in stone and that's that. That's not a video game. Look at classic WoW. There's a reason that the 3 raids in the game all have roughly 30 minute clear times now. The game is completely broken by it's players. We can get to this point, just give it some damn time.
The most beautiful thing is knowing that in WoW Vanilla, the fire mage (at the start of vanilla anyhow) was considered the best DPS even during Molten Core. We only know now that it isn't, because of all we know now. Hell people even thought Hunters were top tier.
Do you want to know how the community felt when Indalamar broke Warriors? That shit goes down in history.
Ask your self why a game like Path of Exile doesn't have DPS meters...
It's not just about discovering it our own "pace". It's about discovering it at a pace that lets us (as a community) naturally evolve through the discovery of mechanics / metas etc. (Everyone needs to be on the same pace as well, else it's pointless and devolves into Classic WoW anyhow). DPS meters just break that shit entirely. If you clearly know what is the highest DPS ability on day 1 there's literally no testing or arguments that are done by the playerbase. It's just set in stone and that's that. That's not a video game. Look at classic WoW. There's a reason that the 3 raids in the game all have roughly 30 minute clear times now. The game is completely broken by it's players. We can get to this point, just give it some damn time.
One thing we can agree on is that WoW is a shit game.
You blame combat trackers, it seems, I blame the developers. The last good game Blizzard released was Warcraft 3.
The funny thing is that there were combat trackers for WoW in vanilla. I remember looking at a friend who was playing with one thinking I wish EQ2 had something like that - he was a hunter raiding MC at the time. They were much simpler than what the game has now, but they existed. People didn't know the game well yet, so even with combat trackers, things weren't always perfectly clear.
The big issue with what you are saying in regards to a games meta is that not having a combat tracker doesn't mean it will slow things down - it means it will completely stop things dead in their tracks.
Archeage is a good example of this, very low combat tracker use, meta is the same today as it was 7 years ago. People are simply too afraid to leave the extablished meta, as there is no way to test if a theory works as you think it should without actually trying it out.
Since trying it out in Ashes will be even more expensive than in Archeage, I can absolutely see the same reservations happening there.
Lastly, I play PoE, I have a combat tracker. It is not as well informed as MMORPG combat trackers, but it is still a thing for that game.
In older games good skill specs were worth their weight in gold. The problem with combat trackers is that nothing can be hidden. Everything is revealed. So those who theory craft and find the best specs have their specs stolen and then cookie cutters appear.
It's should be up to individuals if they release their specs and not a DPS Meter. DPS Meters are a bane and I'm pleased they wont be implemented.
Having a Target Dummy in a node (barracks/training grounds).
I don't think there should be a DPS meter in-game when fighting in a party/raid but there should be a way to find out what you'r DPS is. Without it there would be no easy way to find out if the rotation used is the right one. Why not have a target dummy in a node where you can test out the rotation (DPS/Healing).
Another idea to further bring it up is to have the dummy last for a certain amount of minutes and giving you a ranking; Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, etc. in the guild you'r in. Not sure about the ranking system though, because people will look at it to select there party.
If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to.
It's not just about discovering it our own "pace". It's about discovering it at a pace that lets us (as a community) naturally evolve through the discovery of mechanics / metas etc. (Everyone needs to be on the same pace as well, else it's pointless and devolves into Classic WoW anyhow). DPS meters just break that shit entirely. If you clearly know what is the highest DPS ability on day 1 there's literally no testing or arguments that are done by the playerbase. It's just set in stone and that's that. That's not a video game. Look at classic WoW. There's a reason that the 3 raids in the game all have roughly 30 minute clear times now. The game is completely broken by it's players. We can get to this point, just give it some damn time.
The most beautiful thing is knowing that in WoW Vanilla, the fire mage (at the start of vanilla anyhow) was considered the best DPS even during Molten Core. We only know now that it isn't, because of all we know now. Hell people even thought Hunters were top tier.
Do you want to know how the community felt when Indalamar broke Warriors? That shit goes down in history.
Ask your self why a game like Path of Exile doesn't have DPS meters...
For a very large number of players back during vanilla, WoW was their first MMO, if not basically their first multiplayer video game ever. When WoW was released, gaming as a hobby was just barely breaking into mainstream, and to be perfectly honest, most gamers really sucked back then. You could almost always tell if a player came from another MMO like EverQuest, or was fresh to the genre, just by how good or bad they were. There were much larger reasons why raids like Molten Core took significantly longer back then, compared to having or not having DPS meters.
As for why games like Path of Exile don't have DPS meters: they would be nearly useless in that type of game. Basically everything in that game has modifiers, so nearly every run would be completely different. There are utilities that can give you a baseline DPS amount based on your equipment and skills, but that could differ entirely during actual gameplay. Doing a run through a map that has a higher mob density will give you entirely different numbers than one that has lower density. It is a completely different game style than an MMO, you can't even compare the two in this context.
In older games good skill specs were worth their weight in gold. The problem with combat trackers is that nothing can be hidden. Everything is revealed. So those who theory craft and find the best specs have their specs stolen and then cookie cutters appear.
It's should be up to individuals if they release their specs and not a DPS Meter. DPS Meters are a bane and I'm pleased they wont be implemented.
Interestingly, in EQ2, I was raiding top end for around a decade. No one was running the same build as me. I used Combat trackers all the time, as did everyone else, yet players still built their own builds.
This is another one of those things that comes down to the individual. There are a lot of players that simply aren't interested in coming up with their own build, and there are some that aren't interested in using someone elses.
A combat tracker being present or not will not take a person from either group to the other.
0
Options
NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
I think a PERSONAL and PRIVATE meter could be available for players to utilize only on target dummies (not in the content) when they are interested and to share with pve groups if they so desire to see a general possible dps measure.
But any mandatory group forced meters in any actual content will only create toxicity. At least a personal meter thats private just helps players compare if they CHOOSE to do so that gives them a general ballpark without the specifics of a raid creating a toxic downplay.
I hate any form of elitism with a passion. It has ruined pve content across the board on many games I have played that killed the enthusiasm of upcoming and newer players that wanted to learn content and play the game.
Over time any tools that make elitism easier inevitably ruin content for players because it creates uneccesary and unrealistic standards for less experienced players and make it almost unbearable to engage with more people to learn the mechanics of dungeons to progress.
I don't want them.
A target dummy in your house as the only place for a DPS meter to check rotations and such would be an ok concession, but other than that, no thanks.
First of all, i come from WoW. So i've done it as many other players. DPS meter and other shit like that. It ruins the game. WoW is in a state of parsing, theorycrafting, simulations. And because of that the game is no longer enjoyable. Getting a new piece of gear has lost it's flair. It used to be a huge exitement to get new piece of gear because it ment so much more. Now it just another statstick that boosts your stats by certain amouny of %. It is the worst thing that has happened to WoW. All because of those 1% players that play the game to race against other who gets the first kill on the last boss. It ruined the game for the other 99%. And even worse blizzard decided to balance and rework some of the specs and builds to cater so those 1% and made some of the spec completely unplayable for any other type of contenct besides mythic raiding, Shadow Priests i am looking at you. And yes, Shadow Priest is mt favorite spec i do not plat because of that.
That being said, I would hate to see AoC turn into the shitstorm WoW is. And i will continue to spam and voice myself on the mater.
NO TO DPS METERS. ANY FORM OF DPS METER SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. EXTERNAL USAGE OF DATA PARSING AND DPS METERS SHOULD BE BANABLE OFFENSE. PERMA BAN IN FACT.
If there are multiple ways to maximise damage (which I suspect), then a DPS Meter isn't required. You once said 'How do you know what's the best?' 'The best can be best until a DPS Meter shows the best'.
So, my reasons still stands, because someone has to build the builds in the first place, every build is viable, just because it took you and others to locate 'The Best' from a DPS Meter doesn't mean other theory crafters haven't already learnt of 'The Best'.
There is no risk/reward when a DPS Meter eradicates the risks, there would only be rewards.
AoC is going to be very odd game, i.e. a PvP game full of care bears and snow flakes Or many of the players who are against DPS meters since it hurt their feeling is going to quite the game the minute they get ganged in PvP
I keep seeing the argument of, if i don't have dps meter i won't be able to know what i can improve on, or i won't know if i'm doing enough to the boss, i won't be able to create a meta, i won't be able to know what's best, and i think that's kind of the point. They don't want meta's to be created. They don't want to see every single dps using the same set up. I personally don't want a dps, if the boss keeps killing you it's a healer/tank issue, if the boss takes too long to take down and uses a group wipe, your dps is too low. I want an mmo to go back to the days where you had to actually theorycraft with friends and check each others numbers and see what works and what doesn't.
AoC is going to be very odd game, i.e. a PvP game full of care bears and snow flakes Or many of the players who are against DPS meters since it hurt their feeling is going to quite the game the minute they get ganged in PvP
Ashes will be a competitive game. I do not appreciate subversion and tricks to ensure dominance. I'd rather carve dominance through actions. It is all well and good to use DPS Meters when people only compete for gear, for fast kills, for world firsts. When the focus is PvE it is all well and good. When the PvE is the foundations of PvX then there should be no advantages from third party processes.
No PvP person broadcasts the world first PvP death, or the personal first PvP Kill. We are a different breed entirely, while we might broadcast the first time a Guild loses their castle, we by no means require a DPS Meter to gain the experiences. We act through blood, sweat and tears. EQ wasn't a PvX Game, EQ2 wasn't a PvX Game, WoW wasn't a PvX Game, most MMOs aren't PvX Games. PvX Games are a different beast entirely.
I don’t want any DPS meters because it is a takeaway from the actual game. I liked the developers vision of a game without it as it would be a novel experience for me in an MMO. Though I get people who want to Min-Max are opposed to not having one, making the process a little more obfuscated to calculate damage will make the people who truly want to MinMax have a more unique experience.
AoC is going to be very odd game, i.e. a PvP game full of care bears and snow flakes Or many of the players who are against DPS meters since it hurt their feeling is going to quite the game the minute they get ganged in PvP
Ashes will be a competitive game. I do not appreciate subversion and tricks to ensure dominance. I'd rather carve dominance through actions. It is all well and good to use DPS Meters when people only compete for gear, for fast kills, for world firsts. When the focus is PvE it is all well and good. When the PvE is the foundations of PvX then there should be no advantages from third party processes.
No PvP person broadcasts the world first PvP death, or the personal first PvP Kill. We are a different breed entirely, while we might broadcast the first time a Guild loses their castle, we by no means require a DPS Meter to gain the experiences. We act through blood, sweat and tears. EQ wasn't a PvX Game, EQ2 wasn't a PvX Game, WoW wasn't a PvX Game, most MMOs aren't PvX Games. PvX Games are a different beast entirely.
Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...
Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...
What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason.
Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.
I keep seeing the argument of, if i don't have dps meter i won't be able to know what i can improve on, or i won't know if i'm doing enough to the boss, i won't be able to create a meta, i won't be able to know what's best, and i think that's kind of the point. They don't want meta's to be created. They don't want to see every single dps using the same set up. I personally don't want a dps, if the boss keeps killing you it's a healer/tank issue, if the boss takes too long to take down and uses a group wipe, your dps is too low. I want an mmo to go back to the days where you had to actually theorycraft with friends and check each others numbers and see what works and what doesn't.
If you can get reliable numbers from the game and you can compare your number with your friends, then you have version of "DPS meters". It may not have the bells and whistles of modern DPS meter but it a form of DPS meter. Whats being asked by many here that they don't want the ability to check with friends since it will show them up and hurt their feelings.
Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...
What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason.
Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.
As far as I can tell, Steven gave two good reasons against DPS meters,
1. It makes content easier. I agree with him to an extent on this.
2. It can be used to exclude people from groups. This is true but to me this is "care bears" attitude which is bit surprising in a PvP game What if some people's "feeling" got hurt?
Its a fallacy if you think people won't check with other people.
It is not a case of checking with 'friends' or 'Raid Leaders' it is a simple case of being awestruck by someone who plays the same class as you and asking for 'Tips and Tricks'. It is entirely up to the person with the class knowledge to either grant information or restrict information.
It is not for Raid Leaders, Guild Leaders or Third Party Software to make these decisions for people. People have a right to play how they want to play, a DPS Meter restricts this, even though those who won't have DPS Meters will claim 'It means I can't play how I want to play'.
DPS Meters are most successful in a non-social game (WoW). Life isn't about what you know, it's about who you know. An MMO used to follow these concepts too, except people keep trying to replace the social aspects with automated aspects. It is not merely a defence of not having a DPS Meter, it is a defence of natural associations and natural Risk/Reward.
I would have the same issues with Raid Finders and Group Finders because it damages the social aspects of a game. It is true it could be summed up as 'Toxicity' but it is worse than 'Toxicity' because the very fabric of the social structures would be under siege.
A MVP system where healing, tanking, dps are all counted. End of raid the game will just nominate a player instead of a meter to see who is last, provide more positivity!
My biggest concern is it will take away the fun from some specs, because they might be super fun to play, but not the best spec in terms of raw numbers. I dont know what i will play, but for sure know that i dont want to be forced to change spec i like just because the numbers arent in the top 10%.
My biggest concern is it will take away the fun from some specs, because they might be super fun to play, but not the best spec in terms of raw numbers. I dont know what i will play, but for sure know that i dont want to be forced to change spec i like just because the numbers arent in the top 10%.
Isn't that a developer issue and not DPS meter issue? I mean if two classes are supposed to do similar dps but one isn't doing so, then someone somewhere messed up. So instead of actually finding this out, you would rather hide the info?
Comments
If I will be able to dissect the logs to find out what customization options are best for every situation (groups of situations) then I don't see any problem with DPS meters being absent. After all they are a distraction from the actual fight
― Plato
You make some good points but if DPS meters are distraction, then you don't have to look at it
I'm not sure why there are lots of people asking it to be your own performance only, this seems pointless to me.
My biggest improvements in other MMO's have been by comparing my damage to similar item/class players who are out performing me and looking at the differences. These players are usually open to discussion about game play which increases the community aspect of the game.
― Plato
As an example, if someone with a similar build is using a particular ability to get 30% of their damage output, and this player is only getting 10% of their damage output from that ability, this is an easy thing to point out to them. You don't (can't, really) tell them exactly how to do that, you just tell them that there is more damage for them to do over all by making better use of that specific ability. Here is the question though; would that happen any more if a combat tracker is present or not?
From what I have seen, the answer is a blatant no. People don't need objective data to treat others with disrespect, some people just do that. Even if these players don't have access to a combat tracker, they will exclude others simply due to the class the play, or the race/class combo, or gear, or lack of the right achievement.
It absolutely is about the people, not the tracker - and the people will do this with or without the tracker.
If Ashes launches with a combat tracker built in to it, there absolutely will be players that use it as an excuse to exclude someone. Thing is, those players were always going to exclude someone, because it makes them feel big. You can't stop that by removing one of the dozens of avenues in which they will use to attribute blame. It is no easier than looking at someones race/class combo, or the gear they are wearing. It is only slightly harder than looking at their class and noticing they don't have the ability that you think that class should have, or the augment on that ability that you think they should have.
People will find a way to exclude others - at least for the first few months in Ashes when they start to learn that excluding others is not an overly successful way to play a game where personal in game relationships matter.
Todays newbie is tomorrows veteran. The main two positives of a combat tracker being in a game like Ashes are that builds that get posted to forums and such can be peer reviewed to ensure they are actually suited to their stated purpose, and are actually good builds; and that players can (and will) bug check the game to a far greater degree than any developer ever could.
To the first of those, I've seen builds posted that are actual rubbish. The kind of thing that if people follow, they won't even make it to max level in the games in question. Fortunately, these builds were in games that had combat trackers, so I and several others were able to correct this.
If these builds are not challenged, people new to the game - or just people that don't enjoy making their own builds - will come along, see the build posted and assume it's good. This is a valid assumption to make, as in every single game out there, all builds that are posted are able to be scrutinized, publically.
Take away combat trackers, and make it so their use isn't able to be discussed, and you have a situation where it is much harder to talk about builds. Not impossible, but much harder.
To the second point above, I have yet to play an MMO where players haven't used a combat tracker to point to issues in the game that are then fixed. Some of the issues are minor (an ability tool tip being inaccurate), but some of them are large and impact literally every aspect of the game (I've seen two games with the same issue in the games RNG system - which literally affects everything in the game).
While exploring the games systems and how things work, players are far more likely to spot these kinds of issues that even the largest QA team.
In terms of good poitns to combat trackers, I am specifically keeping out of their use in top end content. This is a thing people either know, or can't have explained to them. So the examples I have provided here are all non-combat uses for combat trackers. There are others, of course (allowing for a more open meta, as an example), but I'm not keen on typing that much, and I'm sure no one is keen on reading that much.
If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to.
However, I also believe the opposite is true. How you want to play the game should not in any way impact on how I want to play.
I'd be interested to hear any reason as to why you think that shouldn't be the case - why one way of playing should take preference when there is a way for both to have their way.
It's not just about discovering it our own "pace". It's about discovering it at a pace that lets us (as a community) naturally evolve through the discovery of mechanics / metas etc. (Everyone needs to be on the same pace as well, else it's pointless and devolves into Classic WoW anyhow). DPS meters just break that shit entirely. If you clearly know what is the highest DPS ability on day 1 there's literally no testing or arguments that are done by the playerbase. It's just set in stone and that's that. That's not a video game. Look at classic WoW. There's a reason that the 3 raids in the game all have roughly 30 minute clear times now. The game is completely broken by it's players. We can get to this point, just give it some damn time.
The most beautiful thing is knowing that in WoW Vanilla, the fire mage (at the start of vanilla anyhow) was considered the best DPS even during Molten Core. We only know now that it isn't, because of all we know now. Hell people even thought Hunters were top tier.
Do you want to know how the community felt when Indalamar broke Warriors? That shit goes down in history.
Ask your self why a game like Path of Exile doesn't have DPS meters...
You blame combat trackers, it seems, I blame the developers. The last good game Blizzard released was Warcraft 3.
The funny thing is that there were combat trackers for WoW in vanilla. I remember looking at a friend who was playing with one thinking I wish EQ2 had something like that - he was a hunter raiding MC at the time. They were much simpler than what the game has now, but they existed. People didn't know the game well yet, so even with combat trackers, things weren't always perfectly clear.
The big issue with what you are saying in regards to a games meta is that not having a combat tracker doesn't mean it will slow things down - it means it will completely stop things dead in their tracks.
Archeage is a good example of this, very low combat tracker use, meta is the same today as it was 7 years ago. People are simply too afraid to leave the extablished meta, as there is no way to test if a theory works as you think it should without actually trying it out.
Since trying it out in Ashes will be even more expensive than in Archeage, I can absolutely see the same reservations happening there.
Lastly, I play PoE, I have a combat tracker. It is not as well informed as MMORPG combat trackers, but it is still a thing for that game.
It's should be up to individuals if they release their specs and not a DPS Meter. DPS Meters are a bane and I'm pleased they wont be implemented.
I don't think there should be a DPS meter in-game when fighting in a party/raid but there should be a way to find out what you'r DPS is. Without it there would be no easy way to find out if the rotation used is the right one. Why not have a target dummy in a node where you can test out the rotation (DPS/Healing).
Another idea to further bring it up is to have the dummy last for a certain amount of minutes and giving you a ranking; Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, etc. in the guild you'r in. Not sure about the ranking system though, because people will look at it to select there party.
For a very large number of players back during vanilla, WoW was their first MMO, if not basically their first multiplayer video game ever. When WoW was released, gaming as a hobby was just barely breaking into mainstream, and to be perfectly honest, most gamers really sucked back then. You could almost always tell if a player came from another MMO like EverQuest, or was fresh to the genre, just by how good or bad they were. There were much larger reasons why raids like Molten Core took significantly longer back then, compared to having or not having DPS meters.
As for why games like Path of Exile don't have DPS meters: they would be nearly useless in that type of game. Basically everything in that game has modifiers, so nearly every run would be completely different. There are utilities that can give you a baseline DPS amount based on your equipment and skills, but that could differ entirely during actual gameplay. Doing a run through a map that has a higher mob density will give you entirely different numbers than one that has lower density. It is a completely different game style than an MMO, you can't even compare the two in this context.
This is another one of those things that comes down to the individual. There are a lot of players that simply aren't interested in coming up with their own build, and there are some that aren't interested in using someone elses.
A combat tracker being present or not will not take a person from either group to the other.
But any mandatory group forced meters in any actual content will only create toxicity. At least a personal meter thats private just helps players compare if they CHOOSE to do so that gives them a general ballpark without the specifics of a raid creating a toxic downplay.
I hate any form of elitism with a passion. It has ruined pve content across the board on many games I have played that killed the enthusiasm of upcoming and newer players that wanted to learn content and play the game.
Over time any tools that make elitism easier inevitably ruin content for players because it creates uneccesary and unrealistic standards for less experienced players and make it almost unbearable to engage with more people to learn the mechanics of dungeons to progress.
A target dummy in your house as the only place for a DPS meter to check rotations and such would be an ok concession, but other than that, no thanks.
That being said, I would hate to see AoC turn into the shitstorm WoW is. And i will continue to spam and voice myself on the mater.
NO TO DPS METERS. ANY FORM OF DPS METER SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. EXTERNAL USAGE OF DATA PARSING AND DPS METERS SHOULD BE BANABLE OFFENSE. PERMA BAN IN FACT.
Sylthatis, over and out.
So, my reasons still stands, because someone has to build the builds in the first place, every build is viable, just because it took you and others to locate 'The Best' from a DPS Meter doesn't mean other theory crafters haven't already learnt of 'The Best'.
There is no risk/reward when a DPS Meter eradicates the risks, there would only be rewards.
Ashes will be a competitive game. I do not appreciate subversion and tricks to ensure dominance. I'd rather carve dominance through actions. It is all well and good to use DPS Meters when people only compete for gear, for fast kills, for world firsts. When the focus is PvE it is all well and good. When the PvE is the foundations of PvX then there should be no advantages from third party processes.
No PvP person broadcasts the world first PvP death, or the personal first PvP Kill. We are a different breed entirely, while we might broadcast the first time a Guild loses their castle, we by no means require a DPS Meter to gain the experiences. We act through blood, sweat and tears. EQ wasn't a PvX Game, EQ2 wasn't a PvX Game, WoW wasn't a PvX Game, most MMOs aren't PvX Games. PvX Games are a different beast entirely.
Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...
What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason.
Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.
If you can get reliable numbers from the game and you can compare your number with your friends, then you have version of "DPS meters". It may not have the bells and whistles of modern DPS meter but it a form of DPS meter. Whats being asked by many here that they don't want the ability to check with friends since it will show them up and hurt their feelings.
As far as I can tell, Steven gave two good reasons against DPS meters,
1. It makes content easier. I agree with him to an extent on this.
2. It can be used to exclude people from groups. This is true but to me this is "care bears" attitude which is bit surprising in a PvP game
It is not a case of checking with 'friends' or 'Raid Leaders' it is a simple case of being awestruck by someone who plays the same class as you and asking for 'Tips and Tricks'. It is entirely up to the person with the class knowledge to either grant information or restrict information.
It is not for Raid Leaders, Guild Leaders or Third Party Software to make these decisions for people. People have a right to play how they want to play, a DPS Meter restricts this, even though those who won't have DPS Meters will claim 'It means I can't play how I want to play'.
DPS Meters are most successful in a non-social game (WoW). Life isn't about what you know, it's about who you know. An MMO used to follow these concepts too, except people keep trying to replace the social aspects with automated aspects. It is not merely a defence of not having a DPS Meter, it is a defence of natural associations and natural Risk/Reward.
I would have the same issues with Raid Finders and Group Finders because it damages the social aspects of a game. It is true it could be summed up as 'Toxicity' but it is worse than 'Toxicity' because the very fabric of the social structures would be under siege.
South East Asia/Oceania server discord: https://discord.gg/J4Epj77
Isn't that a developer issue and not DPS meter issue? I mean if two classes are supposed to do similar dps but one isn't doing so, then someone somewhere messed up. So instead of actually finding this out, you would rather hide the info?