There is no reason, why open world PvP cant offer progression of some kind.
There is progression on offer.
The same progression as is on offer in PvE, in fact.
PvE itself doesn't offer gear. The only thing that gives players gear is crafting.
Materials for crafting come from harvesting (essentially more crafting), and from PvE kills. However, these materials change hands between players (in an unexpected manner, one could say) via PvP.
This is in both open world PvP, and caravan attacking. This is where PvP player rewards come from, and it stands to be more lucrative than someone that is only PvE'ing.
Keep in mind, if I kill the biggest baddest raid mob in the game, one that took my raid of 40 players dozens of hours to kill, if you come along and kill me while I have that in my inventory, there is a good chance that you could get that rare, hard fought raid dropped raw material.
To say that there are no rewards for open world PvP is to not look at what open world PvP offers.
There are no rewards for arena PvP, and this is how it should be.
Great explanation of the systems. This is exactly it.
PvE itself doesn't offer gear. The only thing that gives players gear is crafting.
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They specifically mentioned that bosses drop both crafting reagents and fully completed gear very recently, either on Summit or Asmongold's interview with Steven (unless I heard wrong which I'm confident I didn't). Just thought I'd throw that in there.
PvE itself doesn't offer gear. The only thing that gives players gear is crafting.
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They specifically mentioned that bosses drop both crafting reagents and fully completed gear very recently, either on Summit or Asmongold's interview with Steven (unless I heard wrong which I'm confident I didn't). Just thought I'd throw that in there.
That's true but I don't think it detracts from the design, overall. You will still need mats to repair that gear, and those dungeons and raids will still be in the world and tangled up with all the other systems of the world, and so the PvE content and the PvP content are still one thing.
Completed gear by its nature is far less versatile as well. It will be good for someone, but not everyone. It might drop, but it might not. Where as the materials that drop can be more easily distributed because everyone can take them to the appropriate crafters to get the gear they actually need.
Here are some recent quotes, including some from just a few days ago in the interviews.
Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items).
There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering profession.
That's true but I don't think it detracts from the design, overall. You will still need mats to repair that gear, and those dungeons and raids will still be in the world and tangled up with all the other systems of the world, and so the PvE content and the PvP content are still one thing.
Completed gear by its nature is far less versatile as well. It will be good for someone, but not everyone. It might drop, but it might not. Where as the materials that drop can be more easily distributed because everyone can take them to the appropriate crafters to get the gear they actually need.
Here are some recent quotes, including some from just a few days ago in the interviews.
Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items).
There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering profession.
I agree with all of that. I just went back and watched the interview again to make sure I didn't hear wrong, was just to make clear that there is a faucet where completed gear can be dropped from PvE for the sake of the discussion. I have no doubt that crafted gear will be much more valuable than dropped gear, in fact I hope that when they use the term 'legendary' it truly is legendary and has a <1% drop chance.
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MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Oh I will break your dreams. PvP gearing is 100% based on PVP SPECIFIC enchantments and gems. That is the way we are going right now. Based on your PvP perfomance, you will get PVP enchamantmens and gems that give exclusive PvP BONUSES.
This is COMPLETELY FALSE.
In the video that was linked to you earlier, the VERY FIRST THING that steven says is that there is no pvp vs pve stats, they're all universal.
There is no reason, why open world PvP cant offer progression of some kind.
There is progression on offer.
The same progression as is on offer in PvE, in fact.
PvE itself doesn't offer gear. The only thing that gives players gear is crafting.
Materials for crafting come from harvesting (essentially more crafting), and from PvE kills. However, these materials change hands between players (in an unexpected manner, one could say) via PvP.
This is in both open world PvP, and caravan attacking. This is where PvP player rewards come from, and it stands to be more lucrative than someone that is only PvE'ing.
Keep in mind, if I kill the biggest baddest raid mob in the game, one that took my raid of 40 players dozens of hours to kill, if you come along and kill me while I have that in my inventory, there is a good chance that you could get that rare, hard fought raid dropped raw material.
To say that there are no rewards for open world PvP is to not look at what open world PvP offers.
There are no rewards for arena PvP, and this is how it should be.
Maybe you are new. PvE does offer FINISHED gear. Go to the wiki if you dont believe me. In combination with gear, PvE offers PvE exclusive mats that lead to crafted gear (which pvp players cant acces without gold).
There are mulitple rewards for arena. Like PvP specfic enchants and gems that make you stronger in PvP. But that is a lot more boring than gear for most people.
That's true but I don't think it detracts from the design, overall. You will still need mats to repair that gear, and those dungeons and raids will still be in the world and tangled up with all the other systems of the world, and so the PvE content and the PvP content are still one thing.
Completed gear by its nature is far less versatile as well. It will be good for someone, but not everyone. It might drop, but it might not. Where as the materials that drop can be more easily distributed because everyone can take them to the appropriate crafters to get the gear they actually need.
Here are some recent quotes, including some from just a few days ago in the interviews.
Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items).
There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering profession.
I agree with all of that. I just went back and watched the interview again to make sure I didn't hear wrong, was just to make clear that there is a faucet where completed gear can be dropped from PvE for the sake of the discussion. I have no doubt that crafted gear will be much more valuable than dropped gear, in fact I hope that when they use the term 'legendary' it truly is legendary and has a <1% drop chance.
It was said in one of the videos that the best crafted gear will rival the raid gear. That in no way suggests better than raid gear
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MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That's true but I don't think it detracts from the design, overall. You will still need mats to repair that gear, and those dungeons and raids will still be in the world and tangled up with all the other systems of the world, and so the PvE content and the PvP content are still one thing.
Completed gear by its nature is far less versatile as well. It will be good for someone, but not everyone. It might drop, but it might not. Where as the materials that drop can be more easily distributed because everyone can take them to the appropriate crafters to get the gear they actually need.
Here are some recent quotes, including some from just a few days ago in the interviews.
Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items).
There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering profession.
I agree with all of that. I just went back and watched the interview again to make sure I didn't hear wrong, was just to make clear that there is a faucet where completed gear can be dropped from PvE for the sake of the discussion. I have no doubt that crafted gear will be much more valuable than dropped gear, in fact I hope that when they use the term 'legendary' it truly is legendary and has a <1% drop chance.
It was said in one of the videos that the best crafted gear will rival the raid gear. That in no way suggests better than raid gear
I would like to add that the wiki states:
The best gear will be a combination of crafted and dropped gear
It offers very little finished gear, and what gear does drop is likely just going to be broken down for better gear.
Point still stands, PvP players earn their progression by claiming caravans full of materials, and then have those materials turned in to items (or more likely, sell those materials and then buy items).
The only PvP that there isn't a reward for is arena PvP - and that is by design.
There are mulitple rewards for arena. Like PvP specfic enchants and gems that make you stronger in PvP. But that is a lot more boring than gear for most people.
There are no stats or effects that only make you better in PvP. Everything that makes you better in one also makes you better in the other.
This is a core tenant of the game, along with open world PvP.
I disagree PvP should offer completed gear. Even PvE bosses only have a chance to drop completed gear. On top of that the game is a PvX game and it should promote you to engage in all areas of the game.
Given this topic already has 72 posts, what I am about to go ahead and express has probably been discussed, however i would like to note my opinion as well.
My overall experience in MMORPGs PVP wise is that the only form I enjoy is the organized one.
To elaborate, that being arenas, battlegrounds or however que based PVP is being called.
As world pvp can be whole lotta fun, in most cases it is an unfair one and I do not believe it is possible
to fully balance it for pretty straight forward reasons.
Gear wise the most enjoyable and fair I believe is to be able to fully gear your character by both only PVP and PVE and the gear having advantage in the corresponding type of play style and disadvantages in the other.
I read the main post, did not read the rest. Too many(good job on a good discussion). I have basically one key point:
This game is not PvP or PvE based. It is PvX. There will be rewards from all aspects, which allows you to play all aspects or focus one or a couple aspects you enjoy. The focus on PvP is not a sole based PvP reward. PvP comes from finding players that are rewarding to kill.
That reward can come from someone who has farmed and you can steal some of their harvested material. Or that reward can come from killing someone who pissed you off for some reason. There are consequences either way.
Same with PvE. There are rewards, but all the work you put into farming, or getting a group together to clear something may not be as rewarding as the player who organized a group to gank you as you came out of the dungeon. Or as rewarding as setting up a spy to infiltrate the enemy and figure out when you were going to send out a massive caravan and then assaulted it.
PvX, newish term, stop thinking in black and white. You can play the game how you want but when players are in charge of creation, you will never end up with a solidary risk/reward meta.
Garbage. Temporary benefits? Okay then, PvErs should lose their PvE gear and enchantments at the end of each month also. They have kill bosses they've already killed, over and over to maintain PvE benefits.
Now see how stupid that it?
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Garbage. Temporary benefits? Okay then, PvErs should lose their PvE gear and enchantments at the end of each month also. They have kill bosses they've already killed, over and over to maintain PvE benefits.
Now see how stupid that it?
I was seriously baffeled when I read peoples replies. You can truly see that 90% here are pure PvE players. Currently 100% of your gear comes from PvE and crafting. You can't even earn a single piece of gear from PvP.
The only progression PvP gives you, is an enchamtnent EVERY 6 MONTHS and crafting supplies when you raid a caravan. It's a bit sad.
There should atleast be some form of gear to showoff your achivments.
Specific PVE and PVP gear is a cancer to all PvX MMOs.
Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about specific PvP gear.
Btw, specific PvP gear enchants are already planned in AoC.
Yes and is a terrible idea they need to rethink
Just because you can get gear from PvP DOES NOT mean it has to be specific PvP gear. It does not even mean any of your drawbacks apply to it. You think only in black and white.
I do think PvP should offer some sort of BiS (or equivalent) item, just not all pieces, that way even arena / PvP players can contribute to the economy, in the same way that PvP players will have to buy from PvE players (or grind it out), PvE players will have to buy from PvP players (or grind it out.)
Specific PVE and PVP gear is a cancer to all PvX MMOs.
Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about specific PvP gear.
Btw, specific PvP gear enchants are already planned in AoC.
Yes and is a terrible idea they need to rethink
Just because you can get gear from PvP DOES NOT mean it has to be specific PvP gear. It does not even mean any of your drawbacks apply to it. You think only in black and white.
No but pvp focused gear makes it sound that way
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why should gear come from a mini game out side of the world?
Should gear come from tavern games as well?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
We dont want PvP Gear at all. It is stated as a PvX Game. Items should be PvX. The enchants which can be obtained from PvP are against the very essence of PvX. It is in fact the first nail in the coffin of PvX.
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MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We dont want PvP Gear at all. It is stated as a PvX Game. Items should be PvX. The enchants which can be obtained from PvP are against the very essence of PvX. It is in fact the first nail in the coffin of PvX.
You don't seem to know what PvX is. PvX is both PvP and PvE. Currently, this game only allows you to gear through PvE and crafting.
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MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why should gear come from a mini game out side of the world?
Should gear come from tavern games as well?
Because castle sieges, caravans and the node sieges are literally what sets ashes of creation apart. It's what makes the game unique. It's not a mini game.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So they should drop gear from sieges as well?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
PvX means player verses all threats. Most games aren't PvX because they have PvE Armour and PvP Armour. When components are obtained from PvP and not PvE then it is not PvX. Your argument fails because you cant craft or get the components from PvE. You can only get the enchants through PvP Seasons of 6 months. Therefore, there is a differentiation between PvP and PvE which means the PvX Tag does not apply.
@Marzzo
I don't really understand what you mean with PvP not giving you gear. PvE and PvP gear is the same, it's gear. You're constantly expected to be under the threat of PvP. Through pvp alone, you can get all the ingredients and money to craft your gear.
If you want gear that's more specifically catered towards bonuses that you think are better for pvp, you can comission a crafter to create gear for that specific niche. This eliminates the need for specific gear that has those bonuses, it all feeds through the same system.
I'd rather the game have no normalization of gear whatsoever. There isn't really much to say but this honestly. I just want the gear you earned be the main factor in how good you do in all PvP.
What I do want is there to be enough stat diversity so the same class doesn't need the same exact gear. So you can weigh what you want vs what is good as opposed to actually having PvP Gear. Like certain stats may just be better for PvP than PvE but I want that to be the player's choice. Not a dictation done for you. At the same time I'd rather there not be extra not needed stats that don't add a lot to the game and only exist because of PvP. If there is a stat then there should be a good reason for it existing.
Comments
Great explanation of the systems. This is exactly it.
They specifically mentioned that bosses drop both crafting reagents and fully completed gear very recently, either on Summit or Asmongold's interview with Steven (unless I heard wrong which I'm confident I didn't). Just thought I'd throw that in there.
You’ll have plenty of opportunity to get materials for gear from caravans and sieges.
You’ll have plenty of opportunity to earn PvP-relevant enchant recipes from PvP rankings.
You’ll be able to do nothing but PvP and still keep up in gear if you find someone willing to sell rarer mats that you don’t wanna PvE for.
That's true but I don't think it detracts from the design, overall. You will still need mats to repair that gear, and those dungeons and raids will still be in the world and tangled up with all the other systems of the world, and so the PvE content and the PvP content are still one thing.
Completed gear by its nature is far less versatile as well. It will be good for someone, but not everyone. It might drop, but it might not. Where as the materials that drop can be more easily distributed because everyone can take them to the appropriate crafters to get the gear they actually need.
Here are some recent quotes, including some from just a few days ago in the interviews.
Loot tables of world bosses or dungeon bosses have a small RNG chance of dropping gear (completed items).
There is a much higher chance that materials and unique recipes are dropped that can be used to craft items of equitable value.
There is a small RNG chance of looting rare and legendary items or crafting materials from mobs based on the level, status and type of mob. This also applies to harvesting resources with a gathering profession.
I agree with all of that. I just went back and watched the interview again to make sure I didn't hear wrong, was just to make clear that there is a faucet where completed gear can be dropped from PvE for the sake of the discussion. I have no doubt that crafted gear will be much more valuable than dropped gear, in fact I hope that when they use the term 'legendary' it truly is legendary and has a <1% drop chance.
You really made me laugh. Steven said: "
Maybe you are new. PvE does offer FINISHED gear. Go to the wiki if you dont believe me. In combination with gear, PvE offers PvE exclusive mats that lead to crafted gear (which pvp players cant acces without gold).
There are mulitple rewards for arena. Like PvP specfic enchants and gems that make you stronger in PvP. But that is a lot more boring than gear for most people.
It was said in one of the videos that the best crafted gear will rival the raid gear. That in no way suggests better than raid gear
I would like to add that the wiki states:
The best gear will be a combination of crafted and dropped gear
Point still stands, PvP players earn their progression by claiming caravans full of materials, and then have those materials turned in to items (or more likely, sell those materials and then buy items).
The only PvP that there isn't a reward for is arena PvP - and that is by design.
There are no stats or effects that only make you better in PvP. Everything that makes you better in one also makes you better in the other.
This is a core tenant of the game, along with open world PvP.
Given this topic already has 72 posts, what I am about to go ahead and express has probably been discussed, however i would like to note my opinion as well.
My overall experience in MMORPGs PVP wise is that the only form I enjoy is the organized one.
To elaborate, that being arenas, battlegrounds or however que based PVP is being called.
As world pvp can be whole lotta fun, in most cases it is an unfair one and I do not believe it is possible
to fully balance it for pretty straight forward reasons.
Gear wise the most enjoyable and fair I believe is to be able to fully gear your character by both only PVP and PVE and the gear having advantage in the corresponding type of play style and disadvantages in the other.
This game is not PvP or PvE based. It is PvX. There will be rewards from all aspects, which allows you to play all aspects or focus one or a couple aspects you enjoy. The focus on PvP is not a sole based PvP reward. PvP comes from finding players that are rewarding to kill.
That reward can come from someone who has farmed and you can steal some of their harvested material. Or that reward can come from killing someone who pissed you off for some reason. There are consequences either way.
Same with PvE. There are rewards, but all the work you put into farming, or getting a group together to clear something may not be as rewarding as the player who organized a group to gank you as you came out of the dungeon. Or as rewarding as setting up a spy to infiltrate the enemy and figure out when you were going to send out a massive caravan and then assaulted it.
PvX, newish term, stop thinking in black and white. You can play the game how you want but when players are in charge of creation, you will never end up with a solidary risk/reward meta.
Now see how stupid that it?
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_repair
I was seriously baffeled when I read peoples replies. You can truly see that 90% here are pure PvE players. Currently 100% of your gear comes from PvE and crafting. You can't even earn a single piece of gear from PvP.
The only progression PvP gives you, is an enchamtnent EVERY 6 MONTHS and crafting supplies when you raid a caravan. It's a bit sad.
There should atleast be some form of gear to showoff your achivments.
Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about specific PvP gear.
Btw, specific PvP gear enchants are already planned in AoC.
Yes and is a terrible idea they need to rethink
Just because you can get gear from PvP DOES NOT mean it has to be specific PvP gear. It does not even mean any of your drawbacks apply to it. You think only in black and white.
No but pvp focused gear makes it sound that way
Should gear come from tavern games as well?
You don't seem to know what PvX is. PvX is both PvP and PvE. Currently, this game only allows you to gear through PvE and crafting.
Because castle sieges, caravans and the node sieges are literally what sets ashes of creation apart. It's what makes the game unique. It's not a mini game.
I don't really understand what you mean with PvP not giving you gear. PvE and PvP gear is the same, it's gear. You're constantly expected to be under the threat of PvP. Through pvp alone, you can get all the ingredients and money to craft your gear.
If you want gear that's more specifically catered towards bonuses that you think are better for pvp, you can comission a crafter to create gear for that specific niche. This eliminates the need for specific gear that has those bonuses, it all feeds through the same system.
What I do want is there to be enough stat diversity so the same class doesn't need the same exact gear. So you can weigh what you want vs what is good as opposed to actually having PvP Gear. Like certain stats may just be better for PvP than PvE but I want that to be the player's choice. Not a dictation done for you. At the same time I'd rather there not be extra not needed stats that don't add a lot to the game and only exist because of PvP. If there is a stat then there should be a good reason for it existing.
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