Is Ammo a thing? Should it be?
Beekeeper
Member
WoW in its modern iteration has abandoned ammunition, instead, bows just shoot, and throwing daggers fly, up until the gear breaks. There's something to be said about how cumbersome it is to have a bunch of inventory slots filled with ammo just to have the ability to fight with a bow.
Yet, at the same time, I always saw it as a great tool for immersion to plan ahead with that. Do I buy good arrows, or are cheap ones ok? Do I get some enchanted frost arrows just in case i stumble over a fire hound?
What do you guys think? Is an ammo mechanic good immersion, or just annoying?
Yet, at the same time, I always saw it as a great tool for immersion to plan ahead with that. Do I buy good arrows, or are cheap ones ok? Do I get some enchanted frost arrows just in case i stumble over a fire hound?
What do you guys think? Is an ammo mechanic good immersion, or just annoying?
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Comments
The issues with bag space are one factor, but so to are the issues with the cost.
If ammo were implemented in Ashes, I'd like to see some form of endless quiver implemented (which kind of goes against a few things in this game, but what ever). I'd also want to see bows easier/cheaper to repair than other weapons, to make up for the need to supply arrows.
On the other hand, there are things like the potion launcher. Every single shot fired from that should - in my opinion - use up ammo that costs a good amount. It allows players to make use of effects that are not native to their class, and so a bit of cost associated with it's use seems fine to me.
I am normally pro ammo, but some games will have skills that force you to machine gun through your ammo. Requiring a infuriating amount of ammo to be carried to make the class useful.
I tend to like it when you can conjure up the basic arrows, but the more powerful ones are crafted, and only used for big boy content. Unless you are wealthy.
I only feel this way because having more consumables in the economy can create more jobs. Some games however it was not meant to be.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Rather than an endless quiver where you put an arrow in and you never run out, I am thinking more where you can put in as many arrows as you like - a limitless quiver perhaps, rather than an endless quiver.
I do like the idea of consumables in combat - be it ammo, potions, poisons, what ever. I just prefer them to be extra things, rather than being needed for the backbone of a build.
In my mind, if a class can conjure up it's own basic arrows, it is probably better off if they just remove that ability from the game and make the assumption that the character just does this - I don't personally find it engaging gameplay to have to keep summoning arrows - and even less so in a game with limited ability slots (very limited, to be fair).
Having it so the game just assumes a basic level of arrow unless the player specifies otherwise works though.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bows
Having one ranged slot, and no ammo slot seems like a big hint to me that we are not going to have ammo.
Which would be perfectly fine by me.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
That does seem highly probable.
That said, they still need a system in place for the potion launcher and it's ammo, so...
To be fair, I'm not against it, I just don't want situations where my group or raid could be held up by a ranger that forgets ammo (which happens often). I do really like the notion of being able to spend more money on better ammo to get better performance, but this is a mechanic that really should be available to all classes or to no classes.
There is no reason at all that an ammo system can't be designed around these two particular things, if it were desired.
I wouldn't mind seeing ammo, but I don't know that we have seen guns mentioned yet, so it'd probably just be the likes of arrows, throwing knives, shuriken.
Playing as a hunter in Wow I found it to be a huge money sink to have to buy ammo. Whilst I liked the idea, I did feel that it left me poorer than another class that didn't need ammo.
I'd like to see Intrepid introduce a Fletching skill for rangers to make their own arrows. EQ had that, if I remember correctly.
I would like to see the game have throwing knives, shuriken or some other thrown weapon. They can be a great pulling weapon. Who makes them though? Where as fletching is a suitable skill to give a ranger, is the making of throwing knives too powerful to give a rogue?
Maybe rogues can have a skill where they can coat a smith made knife with poison. That poison would effectively be ammo.
I would definitely like to see special arrows that you might see in a game like Divinity.
Then again, as it was already mentioned, there is no ammo slot. So chances are not very high that we will see it. Although this is alpha, so things might change yet.
Considering the annoyance of ammo, different quiver sizes and ease of crafting of "regular" ammo can do away with that quite effectively.
The case against ammo is of course the simplification of ranged combat. You have a weapon (bow, sling, crossbow..whatever) and that weapon has all traits you can get. Easier to balance in both PvP and PvE, easier to add new weapon types without having to add in yet another ammo.
I am also against having ammo. We have durability on weapons and other gear, and that seems like enough of a maintenance requirement without adding the burden of ammo on top of it.
Though one thing you can do, maybe bows need ammo and wands need charges, but in compensation they degrade more slowly than melee weapons. Which makes sense; you’re not banging your bow or wand against things the way you are a sword or axe.
(1:26:15) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPqLl_e3nxw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h26m15s
To me that’s more plausible than a rifle-sized potion flinger.
I remember a game where it took up space and it's annoying. Being able to take less loot because of your class shouldn't happen.
https://knightsofember.com/forums/members/winner909098.54
While the images do make it appear as if there won't be ammo, it could be easily implemented.
I would personally be FOR having ammo. It's not like everyone has an endless potion container on their hip. You run out you have to resupply, same thing.
Having arrows also gives woodworkers another thing to make and could allow you to have different types of arrows, so it isn't all about the bow. So you could have one bow but then maybe different types of attacks and the bow would augment them. The array of different types of arrows could really make an archer shine.
There are 2 caveats to this however; First, for the inconvenience of having to make arrows, switch out quivers periodically and resupply, bows should do the most damage of any ranged weapon. The Second would be I would be willing to concede the realism of how many arrows you can have in a quiver. So maybe 100 per slot?
I think it would really add to an Archer class.
Conversely, if you gave ammo-using weapons superior damage to compensate for the ammo management then you are guaranteeing that almost everyone will use them and nobody will carry another kind of weapon. It’s not an equivalent exchange.
Soooooo, you're presenting the two extremes to support your position [which I can appreciate] but I'm sure there is a balance in there somewhere. It would do enough damage to offset the inconvenience but yet not so much more that every RDPS would have to be one.
About potions.....well that's not quite true because some could base their characters around potion use like a mage who would continually chug mana pots to keep them casting the highest power spells without rest. There are some in ESO that base their character's power around the Argonian ability to enhance potions. So there are examples but as to weather or not AoC will have that, who knows.
That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.
That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.
I'm sure some mini/maxers would but that's always been the case. Most however would say that the cost to make them regularly (you could easily go through 1000 in a single siege), resupply, refill when the quiver is empty (wouldn't it suck if you had that guy almost down but ran out and he got away?), perpetual lost inventory space, etc. is not worth whatever that +% is.
Maybe it's as small as 3% plus the utility of having different arrow types? IDK. That's why I'm here voicing my opinions and not on the other side making the game (well, one of many reasons
I have played games on both sides of the equation though. In DAoC you had to make your arrows and all the things I listed above were factors. Nothing sucked more than getting out in RvR and realizing you hadn't re-supplied
That is why I am so on the fence about ammo for AoC. On one hand you are taking jobs out of the economy by removing them. On the other had you are making a class cost money to even play.
My solution for ammo would be that you can summon the lowest tier ammo as a class skill, and be able to play the class with moderate damage output. If you really wanted to invest hard earned money into your class you could spend the money to do a little more damage. This is not pay to win because you still have to earn the money to afford it in game.
It just has to be balanced so that archers with big boy arrows are not so good that the only way people want to raid is to bring a bunch of trust fund archers.
I don't care too much about inconvenience. You just should not be in a situation where your class is impossible to make money on because it costs you more money to farm. FFXI ranger was a good example of a class that cost more money to play than it would normally make.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
But let them buy an item that powers up their ammo with a special ability for a limited time. Maybe a quiver of flame arrows that last for 100 shots or 10 minutes or whatever. That item could be made by a crafter who sells them out of their store.
You can then have magic stones that “super-charge” a wand, or a whetstone that sharpens a sword, a poison to coat a dagger, etc. Let each weapon have a crafted, limited use consumable item that temporarily boosts the weapon. And the item is appropriate for whatever the weapon is.
There would be no balance issues because each weapon would have its own equivalent available. No need for an ammo slot because it’s a consumable that goes in your regular backpack. What do people think about that?
On the other hand, if the idea of ammo is the type of damage being produced by the ranged weapon, then I'm all for that. If you use a crossbow and buy a "Frost Quarrel" from a crafter/merchant, that bow is now augmented to produce frost damage with other effects, such as a slow. and that weapon will continue to use that type of ammo until it is either broken or re-augmented with a new type of ammo. This wouldn't take up bag space and would add another element to the players who enjoy having different effects from their attacks.
This also opens up the idea of ranged players being able to prepare for a coming fight. If a floor of a dungeon is full of fire elementals, they would want to bring that Frost Quarrel Crossbow for the additional damage or to negate some effect those creatures would have.
Side note: These "Ammo Augments" could have a visual effect on a character, that could be toggled on or off, such as a quiver of arrows or quarrels that had blue-tipped feathers, or whatever color to represent the type of damage they are augmented for.