People turning to ash isn't as far out there as you're making it out to be.
It's literally just one lore mechanic. Sure the players don't collapse to the ground all splayed out as a cold corpse, but player characters tend to be special in all settings.
NPC's and mobs have regular death animations as we've seen already.
I understand that, it just looks whimsical. Blood and corpses is more in line with how people die in reality.
It’s actually based on a Pathfinder campaign. Not a D&D one.
Also, it was very clear from the beginning that he created his own universe and was using the Pathfinder rule set to play the campaign. The setting of these campaigns can be different every time based on who the DM is and what campaign he/she wants to build. There is no such thing as a more realistic norm. The DM determines where they want to take the campaign and especially so when it’s a custom made one such as Steven’s. So I’m not sure why you had the expectation that you had.
You are talking to someone who has player a lot of tabletop games.
Pathfinder is a just rules system inspired by D&D. Pathfinder is also close enough in its original setting to generic D&D to not have the deal with lawsuits be basically be D&D. So saying it is based off D&D to me is not that far off. It would have been based off of D&D anyway if 4E was not what it was If you want to be extra annoying and specific "Yes Ashes is based off pathfinder.", but we all know that pathfinder is so derivative of D&D that it really does not matter. Before you say that D&D is just based off Lord of the rings or something stupid. Remember that D&D is far more different to Lord of the rings than pathfinder is different than D&D. Especially 10 years ago.
The Verra setting could easily be ported to one system to the other. It is uncommon for a DM to go in and drastically change the way everything works in these games. If I had just the lore of Verra in a nice setting book explaining the world. I would make enough notes in a few hours to be able to DM verra in D&D 3.5e or 5e.
There is a realistic norm. More than 75% of every setting in D&D is the same monsters, spells, items, and rules, and most of it is compatible with each other via Planescape and Spell Jammer explanations.
Most campaigns don't re-right the way death works the way Ashes has. At most you might get some explanation about where your soul goes based on a different planner system.
So my expectation was never that people would just turn into dust instead of corpses. Like I said, it is fine. I don't mind it. I just expected the realism that D&D and its derivatives is normally known for when dealing with humanoid body's.
I also would bet that in the table top version death was normal. This whole dust thing is more likely just a cool effect they wanted to use to fit the whole phoenix theme, but that is all speculation.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Vhaeyne All I’m saying is that you’re making a lot of speculation regarding a custom made campaign. I don’t understand your expectation... it’s a custom made campaign... he can do whatever he wants with it.
It’s just odd for you to claim that it’s weird and unexpected to see what they’re doing with the death lore.
@Vhaeyne All I’m saying is that you’re making a lot of speculation regarding a custom made campaign. I don’t understand your expectation... it’s a custom made campaign... he can do whatever he wants with it.
It’s just odd for you to claim that it’s weird and unexpected to see what they’re doing with the death lore.
I have seen a lot of custom campaign settings in my day. I can't recall anyone changing it so your corpse is dust.
Never said he could not do what he wants, that is what is great about custom world building.
Like I said, what people normally change about death, is where your soul goes and how hard it is to bring that soul back to the material plane. The fact that Verra is this universes material plane makes the death animation even stranger to me. Normally the idea behind a material plane is that it is a place that is most in line with a human centric understanding of the universe. Other planes are the places where more whimsical and unexpected things can happen.
So yes my original expectation of Verra was that it was not so whimsical. This whole death animation thing has shown me that it is more whimsical than I thought. Which is fine. It also explains the over the top animations every chance they get.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Vhaeyne All I’m saying is that you’re making a lot of speculation regarding a custom made campaign. I don’t understand your expectation... it’s a custom made campaign... he can do whatever he wants with it.
It’s just odd for you to claim that it’s weird and unexpected to see what they’re doing with the death lore.
I have seen a lot of custom campaign settings in my day. I can't recall anyone changing it so your corpse is dust.
Never said he could not do what he wants, that is what is great about custom world building.
Like I said, what people normally change about death, is where your soul goes and how hard it is to bring that soul back to the material plane. The fact that Verra is this universes material plane makes the death animation even stranger to me. Normally the idea behind a material plane is that it is a place that is most in line with a human centric understanding of the universe. Other planes are the places where more whimsical and unexpected things can happen.
So yes my original expectation of Verra was that it was not so whimsical. This whole death animation thing has shown me that it is more whimsical than I thought. Which is fine. It also explains the over the top animations every chance they get.
This is actually ridiculous. You’re arguing that a custom made world is too custom made. Alright my man. Have a good one.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The most interesting parts of these threads is we are all here looking for something different and yet every time they show something different a new thread pops up concerned about it being different.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
This is actually ridiculous. You’re arguing that a custom made world is too custom made. Alright my man. Have a good one.
What is ridiculous is that I started the thread by admitting that my expectations about the games setting was wrong.
You pushed me for a explanation.
I gave you a honest reasoning behind my initial expectations.
Then you said that I am "arguing" that a custom campaign is too custom for me.
Which is not the case.
I said it is not what I expected. I never said there was anything wrong with it.
I never said whimsical is bad.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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zammwichMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I personally prefer the animation, it sounded like a pile of ash will remain where the body normally would showing someone died there and the visual on death is just so much more impactful.
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2021
I've never played Pathfinder but I just looked up an article about the differences with D&D. Pathfinder was originally released as a group of supplemental rules for D&D 3rd edition. So, the similarity is there. However, Pathfinder is focused on far more fantastic. Specific examples were, "gnomes can literally die from boredom, demons fight an eternal war against nightmarish squid monsters, and the cavernous underworld lives in fear of flying psychic worms the size of dragons." It seems Pathfinder is generally more weird.
All of this and the death changes fit into the description of Ashes being High Fantasy; which, is a world that is similar to earth but has a different ruleset for existence and is focused on extreme or epic events.
For good time see: "How beholders are born." (It is probably not what you would think)
I just generally never expect humanoid deaths on the material plane to be so extraordinary.
I stand by my speculation on this. The death animation is just a cool way to fit the phoenix theme. I doubt it existed in the original table top incarnations of the setting. I would be surprised and amazed to learn that the "Ashes" death existed before development on the MMO.
Again, I don't think anything is wrong with it. It will definitely help the game have a identify that stands out.
Which is great for the overall health of the game.
Hiya everyone! We definitely appreciate all the feedback folks are sharing so far on our new "death designs", and hope you enjoyed learning more of the lore behind it!
As a personal note, I would probably call this more "fantastical" than "whimsical", and I think it's right in line with the more magical elements that pervade Verra!
The animation looks good and I do like how it fits the lore of the game. I don’t even mind if it was never planned and just added because it looks unique.
I’m not convinced with looting ash for items, it doesn’t feel quite right. Dropping something lootable would probably be my preference but I can’t say for sure how that'd feel either.
Having read all the replies, at first I felt that people didn't read my post till the end.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
Having read all the replies, at first I felt that people didn't read my post till the end.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
I actually like that idea a lot more. Having a normal death where the corpse goes to dust only upon respawning makes a ton of sense to me. Not only is it the best of both worlds, but it also allows for a bonus visual indicator that that person is respawning.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body (Which is possible, but more "Fantastical"). Having the corpse come back to life is something I would prefer.
For a first iteration, the animation rocks. I feel it would look better if it took longer to resolve (*why*), but more than happy with what we have seen so far.
(*why*)
If was playing one of a bunch of DPS mages in a huge battle then I would love to see the ashes of a 100+ enemies linger in a castle chokepoint for several seconds before dissipating, just so that I would have a little time to revel in the magnitude of my actions before charging off into the next fracas. IMO it would be best if it were a fleeting moment of 2-3 seconds so that those present would have a memorable experience they could discuss afterwards.
Death animation is far from a deal breaker for me, I would accept something far less cool than what we've just been shown.
I'm sure this idea has been subtly whispered by a tech guy from the team who wanted to early-optimize the rendering by not having dozens of dead bodies in front of a node gate during PvP siege
Having read all the replies, at first I felt that people didn't read my post till the end.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
I actually like that idea a lot more. Having a normal death where the corpse goes to dust only upon respawning makes a ton of sense to me. Not only is it the best of both worlds, but it also allows for a bonus visual indicator that that person is respawning.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body (Which is possible, but more "Fantastical"). Having the corpse come back to life is something I would prefer.
To build upon this, if we go ahead with the current design, all notion of graveyards, crypts, catacombs, skeletons, dead and such, should go out the window when it comes to humanoids.
I actually like that idea a lot more. Having a normal death where the corpse goes to dust only upon respawning makes a ton of sense to me. Not only is it the best of both worlds, but it also allows for a bonus visual indicator that that person is respawning.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body (Which is possible, but more "Fantastical"). Having the corpse come back to life is something I would prefer.
I personally like the idea of the dust reforming into a body.
Instead of jamming a soul back into a body, the revive spell would be more akin to a rewind. Probably not the intent, admittedly, but it's a neat idea.
Having read all the replies, at first I felt that people didn't read my post till the end.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
I actually like that idea a lot more. Having a normal death where the corpse goes to dust only upon respawning makes a ton of sense to me. Not only is it the best of both worlds, but it also allows for a bonus visual indicator that that person is respawning.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body (Which is possible, but more "Fantastical"). Having the corpse come back to life is something I would prefer.
To build upon this, if we go ahead with the current design, all notion of graveyards, crypts, catacombs, skeletons, dead and such, should go out the window when it comes to humanoids.
Not necessarily, because as Steven explained, it's only the players and crew coming back into Verra and being blessed by the goddess of life that causes them to burn to ash and reconstitute.
There's probably plenty of crypts and skeletons left over from the things still living on Verra and the crypts and such that they left behind when they first left verra for sanctum
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Having read all the replies, at first I felt that people didn't read my post till the end.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body.
Almost like a Phoenix rising from the ashes... you know like the whole premise of the game with its name being Ashes of Creation and having a Phoenix for its symbol.
I’m saying this to point out that your suggestion wouldn’t make resurrection spells make more sense... they already make a lot of sense within the premises of this fictional made up world that has its own set of rules which very clearly don’t line up with your preferred set of arbitrary rules.
Almost like a Phoenix rising from the ashes... you know like the whole premise of the game with its name being Ashes of Creation and having a Phoenix for its symbol.
I’m saying this to point out that your suggestion wouldn’t make resurrection spells make more sense... they already make a lot of sense within the premises of this fictional made up world that has its own set of rules which very clearly don’t line up with your preferred set of arbitrary rules.
Neat.
Yet, people seem to agree with my take.
It is almost like part of conversing on forums is expressing personal opinions.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Almost like a Phoenix rising from the ashes... you know like the whole premise of the game with its name being Ashes of Creation and having a Phoenix for its symbol.
I’m saying this to point out that your suggestion wouldn’t make resurrection spells make more sense... they already make a lot of sense within the premises of this fictional made up world that has its own set of rules which very clearly don’t line up with your preferred set of arbitrary rules.
Neat.
Yet, people seem to agree with my take.
It is almost like part of conversing on forums is expressing personal opinions.
I’m sure some people do... welcome to the forums... you’ll come across all sorts of people and opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that a resurrection spell raising a body from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe... your suggestion doesn’t make more sense as you claimed.
I’m sure some people do... welcome to the forums... you’ll come across all sorts of people and opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that a resurrection spell raising a body from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe... your suggestion doesn’t make more sense as you claimed.
Again, I never said it didn't make sense... I said @George Black 's idea made a ton of sense to me.
Are we going to have another round of you misrepresenting people, and looking for the worst interpretation of what people say?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’m sure some people do... welcome to the forums... you’ll come across all sorts of people and opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that a resurrection spell raising a body from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe... your suggestion doesn’t make more sense as you claimed.
Again, I never said it didn't make sense... I said @George Black 's idea made a ton of sense to me.
Are we going to have another round of you misrepresenting people, and looking for the worst interpretation of what people say?
You literally said “it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense”. I’m not sure if you don’t understand what “make more sense” means, but it is a clear indication that you think the current design doesn’t make as much sense and that your suggestion would “make more sense”. As I pointed out the bodies rising from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You can belittle my points and claim that I’m misrepresenting what you’re saying all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The current system makes perfect sense and your suggestion doesn’t “make more sense” within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You literally said “it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense”. I’m not sure if you don’t understand what “make more sense” means, but it is a clear indication that you think the current design doesn’t make as much sense and that your suggestion would “make more sense”. As I pointed out the bodies rising from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You can belittle my points and claim that I’m misrepresenting what you’re saying all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The current system makes perfect sense and your suggestion doesn’t “make more sense” within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You literally said “it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense”. I’m not sure if you don’t understand what “make more sense” means, but it is a clear indication that you think the current design doesn’t make as much sense and that your suggestion would “make more sense”. As I pointed out the bodies rising from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You can belittle my points and claim that I’m misrepresenting what you’re saying all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The current system makes perfect sense and your suggestion doesn’t “make more sense” within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
What else?
Well now you're just being dismissive
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You literally said “it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense”. I’m not sure if you don’t understand what “make more sense” means, but it is a clear indication that you think the current design doesn’t make as much sense and that your suggestion would “make more sense”. As I pointed out the bodies rising from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You can belittle my points and claim that I’m misrepresenting what you’re saying all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The current system makes perfect sense and your suggestion doesn’t “make more sense” within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
What else?
No that’s it. I only made one point. Did you have a hard time following the point? It’s really simple.
Yeah, I well the conversation is not going anywhere.
I think I have explained myself well enough on this topic.
I said like the animation, I gave a personal opinion on what I like more, and I agreed with someone else's opinion. There really is not much of a reason to engage with @VmanGman at this point. Last time he got board and stopped.
Comments
I understand that, it just looks whimsical. Blood and corpses is more in line with how people die in reality.
You are talking to someone who has player a lot of tabletop games.
Pathfinder is a just rules system inspired by D&D. Pathfinder is also close enough in its original setting to generic D&D to not have the deal with lawsuits be basically be D&D. So saying it is based off D&D to me is not that far off. It would have been based off of D&D anyway if 4E was not what it was If you want to be extra annoying and specific "Yes Ashes is based off pathfinder.", but we all know that pathfinder is so derivative of D&D that it really does not matter. Before you say that D&D is just based off Lord of the rings or something stupid. Remember that D&D is far more different to Lord of the rings than pathfinder is different than D&D. Especially 10 years ago.
The Verra setting could easily be ported to one system to the other. It is uncommon for a DM to go in and drastically change the way everything works in these games. If I had just the lore of Verra in a nice setting book explaining the world. I would make enough notes in a few hours to be able to DM verra in D&D 3.5e or 5e.
There is a realistic norm. More than 75% of every setting in D&D is the same monsters, spells, items, and rules, and most of it is compatible with each other via Planescape and Spell Jammer explanations.
Most campaigns don't re-right the way death works the way Ashes has. At most you might get some explanation about where your soul goes based on a different planner system.
So my expectation was never that people would just turn into dust instead of corpses. Like I said, it is fine. I don't mind it. I just expected the realism that D&D and its derivatives is normally known for when dealing with humanoid body's.
I also would bet that in the table top version death was normal. This whole dust thing is more likely just a cool effect they wanted to use to fit the whole phoenix theme, but that is all speculation.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
It’s just odd for you to claim that it’s weird and unexpected to see what they’re doing with the death lore.
I have seen a lot of custom campaign settings in my day. I can't recall anyone changing it so your corpse is dust.
Never said he could not do what he wants, that is what is great about custom world building.
Like I said, what people normally change about death, is where your soul goes and how hard it is to bring that soul back to the material plane. The fact that Verra is this universes material plane makes the death animation even stranger to me. Normally the idea behind a material plane is that it is a place that is most in line with a human centric understanding of the universe. Other planes are the places where more whimsical and unexpected things can happen.
So yes my original expectation of Verra was that it was not so whimsical. This whole death animation thing has shown me that it is more whimsical than I thought. Which is fine. It also explains the over the top animations every chance they get.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
This is actually ridiculous. You’re arguing that a custom made world is too custom made. Alright my man. Have a good one.
What is ridiculous is that I started the thread by admitting that my expectations about the games setting was wrong.
You pushed me for a explanation.
I gave you a honest reasoning behind my initial expectations.
Then you said that I am "arguing" that a custom campaign is too custom for me.
Which is not the case.
I said it is not what I expected. I never said there was anything wrong with it.
I never said whimsical is bad.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
All of this and the death changes fit into the description of Ashes being High Fantasy; which, is a world that is similar to earth but has a different ruleset for existence and is focused on extreme or epic events.
https://www.cbr.com/pathfinder-vs-dnd-which-is-betterdungeons-dragons-wizards-coast-paizo-publishing/
https://fantasybookfanatic.com/high-fantasy-vs-low-fantasy-a-detailed-guide/
For good time see: "How beholders are born." (It is probably not what you would think)
I just generally never expect humanoid deaths on the material plane to be so extraordinary.
I stand by my speculation on this. The death animation is just a cool way to fit the phoenix theme. I doubt it existed in the original table top incarnations of the setting. I would be surprised and amazed to learn that the "Ashes" death existed before development on the MMO.
Again, I don't think anything is wrong with it. It will definitely help the game have a identify that stands out.
Which is great for the overall health of the game.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
As a personal note, I would probably call this more "fantastical" than "whimsical", and I think it's right in line with the more magical elements that pervade Verra!
I'd like to make fun of my friends when they die.
I’m not convinced with looting ash for items, it doesn’t feel quite right. Dropping something lootable would probably be my preference but I can’t say for sure how that'd feel either.
I re-wrote a part to make my point more clear since I may have caused some confusion.
I actually like that idea a lot more. Having a normal death where the corpse goes to dust only upon respawning makes a ton of sense to me. Not only is it the best of both worlds, but it also allows for a bonus visual indicator that that person is respawning.
In addition it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense. Seeing that if you raised someone at that location all of the dust would have to magically restructure itself into a humanoid body (Which is possible, but more "Fantastical"). Having the corpse come back to life is something I would prefer.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
(*why*)
If was playing one of a bunch of DPS mages in a huge battle then I would love to see the ashes of a 100+ enemies linger in a castle chokepoint for several seconds before dissipating, just so that I would have a little time to revel in the magnitude of my actions before charging off into the next fracas. IMO it would be best if it were a fleeting moment of 2-3 seconds so that those present would have a memorable experience they could discuss afterwards.
Death animation is far from a deal breaker for me, I would accept something far less cool than what we've just been shown.
It's still a cool idea though
To build upon this, if we go ahead with the current design, all notion of graveyards, crypts, catacombs, skeletons, dead and such, should go out the window when it comes to humanoids.
I personally like the idea of the dust reforming into a body.
Instead of jamming a soul back into a body, the revive spell would be more akin to a rewind. Probably not the intent, admittedly, but it's a neat idea.
Not necessarily, because as Steven explained, it's only the players and crew coming back into Verra and being blessed by the goddess of life that causes them to burn to ash and reconstitute.
There's probably plenty of crypts and skeletons left over from the things still living on Verra and the crypts and such that they left behind when they first left verra for sanctum
Almost like a Phoenix rising from the ashes... you know like the whole premise of the game with its name being Ashes of Creation and having a Phoenix for its symbol.
I’m saying this to point out that your suggestion wouldn’t make resurrection spells make more sense... they already make a lot of sense within the premises of this fictional made up world that has its own set of rules which very clearly don’t line up with your preferred set of arbitrary rules.
Neat.
Yet, people seem to agree with my take.
It is almost like part of conversing on forums is expressing personal opinions.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I’m sure some people do... welcome to the forums... you’ll come across all sorts of people and opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that a resurrection spell raising a body from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe... your suggestion doesn’t make more sense as you claimed.
Again, I never said it didn't make sense... I said @George Black 's idea made a ton of sense to me.
Are we going to have another round of you misrepresenting people, and looking for the worst interpretation of what people say?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
You literally said “it would make spells that raise the dead make more sense”. I’m not sure if you don’t understand what “make more sense” means, but it is a clear indication that you think the current design doesn’t make as much sense and that your suggestion would “make more sense”. As I pointed out the bodies rising from the ashes makes perfect sense within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
You can belittle my points and claim that I’m misrepresenting what you’re saying all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The current system makes perfect sense and your suggestion doesn’t “make more sense” within Ashes of Creation’s universe.
What else?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Well now you're just being dismissive
No that’s it. I only made one point. Did you have a hard time following the point? It’s really simple.
So petty...
Yeah, I well the conversation is not going anywhere.
I think I have explained myself well enough on this topic.
I said like the animation, I gave a personal opinion on what I like more, and I agreed with someone else's opinion. There really is not much of a reason to engage with @VmanGman at this point. Last time he got board and stopped.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.