I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong here but aren't the in game achievable costumes unique, so not in the cash shop? If they're unique then how is the cash shop costumes devaluing in game ones?
My negatives with cash shop cosmetics are that it almost entirely removes the appeal of gear collecting and transmogs. Also they enable people to be lazier. "I got my cool costume, I don't need anything else."
Neither of those points should really affect my game experience. Costumes in general hide the gear you're wearing and I dislike that. However, it's a different topic
Your first comment is correct and something that most people are overlooking is the fact that they want the end game gear to look better than cash shop cosmetics anyway. This alone completely destroys the crying about a cash shop. Don't even get me started on the people saying that Intrepid doesn't need cash shop profits since there is a monthly subscription.....those people are literal internet Karens.
Your second comment I disagree with. It will not remove the appeal of cosmetic gathering at all. People often seek to collect all sorts of stupid looking gear just to have it. In my scenario, I don't usually like playing dress up in games. I am playing an Orc Tank. I will be using the fattest gear I can find. Whatever makes me the most visible the easiest on the battle field is what I want to wear. If something ever comes out that makes me look even bigger, I will go for it. I bought one extra set of skins in the cash shop to support the developer and the artists (I like mushrooms but don't eat them oddly enough).
It is a different topic but yeah, I hate the idea of hiding gear through a cosmetic....we'll see how it turns out lol.
Your second comment I disagree with. It will not remove the appeal of cosmetic gathering at all. People often seek to collect all sorts of stupid looking gear just to have it. In my scenario, I don't usually like playing dress up in games. I am playing an Orc Tank. I will be using the fattest gear I can find. Whatever makes me the most visible the easiest on the battle field is what I want to wear. If something ever comes out that makes me look even bigger, I will go for it. I bought one extra set of skins in the cash shop to support the developer and the artists (I like mushrooms but don't eat them oddly enough).
If a person sees a set in the cosmetic store they fall in love with, they won't care about any other set. I don't see how that being a scenario is impossible. I imagine there will also be people that think along the lines of "I've paid for this set, if I don't wear it it's a waste of money."
I do agree entirely that there will be a large number or people that will still want to go out and collect cosmetics. but "It will not remove the appeal of cosmetic gathering at all" must be a subjective view.
Maybe I should amend my opinion to "removes the appeal in some scenarios.."
I get that, but you also can't let past experiences scar you to the point where you are concerned about the future of the cash shop of a game we know very little about, that is years from coming out by a studio who has bent themselves backwards claiming/promising the cash shop will forever stay cosmetic. Sure stay cautious, continue to prefer AoC wouldn't have a cash shop until your concerns are put to ease but no need to let it disappoint you or ruin your future enjoyment of, again I cannot stress this enough, a game that we still know very very little about and is a long time from release. And especially no reason to demand they change plans already and scrap the cosmetic only cash shop (just look at PoE for a positive example, and AoC has promised no pay for convenience either which they also consider P2W, so even better than PoE). Stay excited my friend.
I feel like the thing about your argument here is that it works both ways.
But at the end of the day cosmetics are going to happen, I think it would be nice if we can get the ability to toggle them off for the sake of our own game play preference.
I also have my conserns about it. Especialy considering how early on doing development it started and that the game is "fully funded".
But when it comes to wow, it's just ridicules. They have a box price and a subscribtion
This being a social structure game I think is degrading itself by offering cash shop clothing cosmetics. Part of the reason mmo's of late are struggling to keep players from bouncing from game to game is the worth of their time spent in game is being replaced by purchasable and swappable vanity over earned rewards that create social stigma. Because players can just look like whatever they want, the draw to look a certain way vs functionality of doing something in a game is lost because the visual progression of a player is being removed so players need to find that itch for progression elsewhere and other things just aren't as fun. Because cosmetics are such a draw in personal progression, the itch to look better is strong in a game where the game rewards that progression and not allows players to buy their way to that pinnacle. Some armors I see in cash shops are simply amazing and i do say 'ah I want that'. But once its bought the appearance itself is diminished because it wasn't earned within the context of the game to socially portray to other players. The player next to me can have it by just buying it where if you stood next to a player with the same armor as you that you earned, you /salute them creating that social draw to obtain the next ideal look for your character that was earned. Not to mention it just gives something for players to do. The game is removing its own content and lessening player retention buy allowing players to buy looks.
I understand the need to supplement the games income to compete with the industry. I also think if a game does cosmetic progression correctly it will just add players to the game that the extra supplement is less necessary. To me, I think only in game looks should be obtainable and sought after in game and a cash shop can add effects, or colors to the in game armor/clothing to enhance their look. That way to get how you look in game is still within the confines of the game and if you want to give the look more pop then support the game with a little micro transaction. You earned this sweet chest piece that has a unlockable fire effect in three colors. I mean put that behind a cash shop, not the piece of armor, make the player get it and if they want more out of it, then purchase that. Giving the player a reason to want to make the microtransaction because they put the effort just to get that item to be able to buy that particular transaction. Personally I wish this were more a crafting thing someone can do so its even more of a social/economic need within the game but I understand there does need to be a way to compete financially. But not at the expense of in game progression, especially with attainable gear since it such a major draw for players.
@Starcry I disagree with every single word in your post. You want them to sell optional effects in the cash shop that goes over the gear we find and craft? So fire effects are ok but costumes are not? You ok with halo's, wings, color spam particles and all that crap also? This would be disgusting to see.
You think they are removing their own content by selling cosmtics? What? The content is me demolishing your castle and taking your things.
You believe the entire social structure of AoC is degrading itself by offering clothing cosmetics. You think people hop around from mmo to mmo because the "social stigma" that is created by crafted gear and found gear is being diluted by in game cosmetics?
People are jumping from mmo to mmo because right now mmo's are complete dog shit with RMT, cheaters, pay to win mechanics (including pay for convenience) , daily login bonuses, lack of difficulty, lack of end game content, and so much more that will not be in AoC. The genre is not failing because people want to play dress up.
@Khronus Did they teach reading comprehension wrong in school for you? Obviously you read it wrong. It clearly states I agree with your sentiment that many current mmo's are crap. You missed the whole point. I would rather there were no RMT's in the game, Period. I'm just stating a possible lesser evil that creates a better business loop based on achievements of the player and developer. I do not think the entire game is based around clothing and armor, but player progression is a large chunk. By removing means of player progression which include cosmetics you damage the game and the social structures it can offer. You're delusional if you think clothing in game isn't a major driving force. Why do you think they are the main RMT's in games?
I don't want them, I don't even want my idea of them I would rather it was fully in game as I stated, but you didn't read that, you just wanted to rip on me for some reason. I'm here because of this in your statement is correct and I do think Ashes is trying something to improve the overall genre.
People are jumping from mmo to mmo because right now mmo's are complete dog shit with RMT, cheaters, pay to win mechanics (including pay for convenience) , daily login bonuses, lack of difficulty, lack of end game content, and so much more that will not be in AoC.
I said part of the reason mmos struggle, not the main reason. And my statement was about vanity which this post is originally about and your excluding that from your reason as to why these games are struggling. And i am here saying its also part of the problem and there is less to strive for in game and a looks is a huge component of that to many players. Maybe not you, but its not just for YOU. All I tried to do was meet somewhere in the middle and provide solutions instead of spend my time typing out tears about how games suck.
What is an acceptable RMT to you? What would you rather see in the shop? Because regardless of how much you cry about it, the shop is going to be there. Or just whine and complain some more. I'll take the feedback on what I brought forth but what my idea was simply based on a simple business logic. I have simply put the RMT behind a 'Play Wall' instead of a 'Pay Wall' or a 'Pay for how you look'. Meaning the player has to earn to opportunity choose if they even want it and the developer has to make the game well enough where the player feels its deserved to give them more money. Creating a positive feedback loop between player and developer.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You have cities to construct and defend and yea you get rewarded for your efforts.
To have a cash shop with the same rewards will not help your point.
I don't understand the point you just attempted to make.
If I'm progressing my character and doing quests, I want some rewards - hopefully, those rewards will help make my character's skills and abilities better - either vertically or horizontally. I'm not necessarily interested in getting cosmetics as rewards for quests or for constructing and defending nodes.
The primary reason to explore and construct and defend a city is because I want the perks provided by the city. Someone purchasing cosmetics does not interfere with any of that.
If someone wants to purchase cosmetics that look similar to, but distinctly different than, what I acquired in-game, why am I supposed to care about that?
The cosmetic shop does not have the same rewards available in-game.
@Starcry WhEn ThEy TaUgHt Me eNgLiSh I nO LeArN NoThInG.
For real though dude, your wall of text was a bit hard to follow as it seemed like yet another mindless rant about nothing relevant. You have the balls to bash my reading comprehension but you start sentences with "and" and don't capitalize your i's lol. Kindly gtfo.
After reading your reply to me a second time (yeah it took me two since I wasn't able to comprehend the rambling at first), I am realizing that you think RMT means the cash shop. RMT is for real money trades between players and other players or farmers. Getting an item in game and selling it on a market place external to the game world. Then meeting up in game and giving it to your buyer. RMT is NOT a cosmetic cash shop from Intrepid. RMT's create bots that auto farm for a profit (IE gold farmers in WOW). I hope you understand this?
You're right, the cosmetic shop will definitely always be there and I am glad it is. Anything they do to make more money to further fund the game I expect to play for several years is 100% welcomed by me as I have dedicated at LEAST 3 years to my guild as their leader.
Intrepid has come out to say several things in regards to the shop. The best looking gear will still be crafted or found from raiding. The current cosmetics will not be purchasable in the future. Different variations can be crafted or found (different colors and such). It will never be pay to win or convenience. They "may" make cosmetics apply to only ONE character with a potential option of switching it on cooldown. They are being accommodating AF in regards to what options they could implement if they were a grimy greedy company like so many developers out there.
Lastly, the clothing visuals that increase from lvl 1 to lvl 50 are indeed a cool aspect of the game. Starting out looking like a naked or a bum and ending up looking like a badass is definitely part of the game. I would consider this a mini game. It doesn't do anything unless you are roleplaying with people (and in that regard you will have hundreds of options in your collection). If you are taken out of the game because you are lvl 20, (looking like a level 20) and I roll along at lvl 1, 20, or even 50 but I am in my mushroom cosmetic.....then there is no hope for you. This is something that is going to happen in the game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
It's not fair that you were able to buy the mushroom cosmetic with the pink caps, but the mushroom costumes in-game are restricted to the green caps and the blue caps!!!
I think Dreoh and others made some good points against cash shop and I agree, atleast from a philosophical standpoint. However I can allow it since IS promised there will be no P2W. The only concern I have is that cosmetics will conceal your gear and thus make it harder/impossible to identify what type of gear the player is wearing. I know it has been stated that there will be some kind of indicator in place that gives you information about the gear types but we will have to wait and see how that plays out. If utilizing the indicator takes a significant amount of time compared to eyeballing the gear then it will be a problem.
For me personally, im used to playing on a potato pc anyway so all your fancy cosmetics still looks like shit in low settings.
Question to the pro-cosmetic cashshop guys; How do you feel about being able to toggle on/off cosmetics?
This being a social structure game I think is degrading itself by offering cash shop clothing cosmetics. Part of the reason mmo's of late are struggling to keep players from bouncing from game to game is the worth of their time spent in game is being replaced by purchasable and swappable vanity over earned rewards that create social stigma. Because players can just look like whatever they want, the draw to look a certain way vs functionality of doing something in a game is lost because the visual progression of a player is being removed so players need to find that itch for progression elsewhere and other things just aren't as fun. Because cosmetics are such a draw in personal progression, the itch to look better is strong in a game where the game rewards that progression and not allows players to buy their way to that pinnacle. Some armors I see in cash shops are simply amazing and i do say 'ah I want that'. But once its bought the appearance itself is diminished because it wasn't earned within the context of the game to socially portray to other players. The player next to me can have it by just buying it where if you stood next to a player with the same armor as you that you earned, you /salute them creating that social draw to obtain the next ideal look for your character that was earned. Not to mention it just gives something for players to do. The game is removing its own content and lessening player retention buy allowing players to buy looks.
I understand the need to supplement the games income to compete with the industry. I also think if a game does cosmetic progression correctly it will just add players to the game that the extra supplement is less necessary. To me, I think only in game looks should be obtainable and sought after in game and a cash shop can add effects, or colors to the in game armor/clothing to enhance their look. That way to get how you look in game is still within the confines of the game and if you want to give the look more pop then support the game with a little micro transaction. You earned this sweet chest piece that has a unlockable fire effect in three colors. I mean put that behind a cash shop, not the piece of armor, make the player get it and if they want more out of it, then purchase that. Giving the player a reason to want to make the microtransaction because they put the effort just to get that item to be able to buy that particular transaction. Personally I wish this were more a crafting thing someone can do so its even more of a social/economic need within the game but I understand there does need to be a way to compete financially. But not at the expense of in game progression, especially with attainable gear since it such a major draw for players.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor. Looking cool used to be a sign of prestige, and what happens with cosmetics is they muddy the waters, if any one can buy their way to looking cool then looking cool in general has no meaning, it doesn't matter if there's in game armor sets that look as good as paid ones it's still going to muddy the waters. If i release a pair of red demon wings in the cash shop and blue demon wings from the raid boss, then guess what, the blue demon wings are worthless, it doesn't have the same shock and awe of knowing these demon wings only can be obtained by killing the legendary Edge Lord of Mount Angst.
MMORPG players need to realize that cosmetics in MMORPGs are a form of progression and when you buy appearances you're paying to skip the hard work it would take to find a cool looking in game set, thus robbing your self of content. It's pay to skip because visuals in MMORPG are content & progression. If you're okay with that then you're okay with that, but being in denial of this reality helps no one.
Again, it's a moot discussion bc it's already happened but I strongly advocate for a toggle cosmetics off feature, this would allow those of us who want to be immersed in the fantasy of progression to be appeased whilst also allowing the pay to skip crowd to get what they want.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
MMORPG players need to realize that cosmetics in MMORPGs are a form of progression and when you buy appearances you're paying to skip the hard work it would take to find a cool looking in game set, thus robbing your self of content. It's pay to skip because visuals in MMORPG are content & progression. If you're okay with that then you're okay with that, but being in denial of this reality helps no one.
Again, I think cosmetics as a form of progression was just a go-to when the devs had little else to provide.
That's how you get people to stick around and pay for subs during the months and years where you have no other new content and you're waiting for the next expansion.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
The "they bought their looks guys that no one will mind or care about/respect"
The "they raided and pvp'ed for their looks and everyone will be impressed"
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
The "they bought their looks guys that no one will mind or care about/respect"
The "they raided and pvp'ed for their looks and everyone will be impressed"
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
The crux of it is the question of will that continue to be the case after time has passed, or will Intrepid lose to greed somewhere down the road and sell cosmetics that look similar to released in-game sets or vice-versa.
History says that cash shops almost always eventually fall to that.
But that said, GW2 is still one of my favourite games even though it has a cash shop, or rather, in spite of it. Even though everyone runs around in immersion-breaking cosmetics. I definitely would rather pay a monthly sub for GW2 than have that theme creep.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
The "they bought their looks guys that no one will mind or care about/respect"
The "they raided and pvp'ed for their looks and everyone will be impressed"
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
The crux of it is the question of will that continue to be the case after time has passed, or will Intrepid lose to greed somewhere down the road and sell cosmetics that look similar to released in-game sets or vice-versa.
History says that cash shops almost always eventually fall to that.
But that said, GW2 is still one of my favourite games even though it has a cash shop, or rather, in spite of it. Even though everyone runs around in immersion-breaking cosmetics. I definitely would rather pay a monthly sub for GW2 than have that theme creep.
I think the two large factors in those games perverting their income sources from a subscription to cash shop or pay to win scenario come down to:
Losing numbers in player base -> you therefore need to get the money you lose in subs somewhere else
Shareholders revenues-> if the company is publicly listed or owned by some large corp, they often demand a certain level of revenue. In Intrepid's case, Steven owns it all, and though he's of course looking to get some ROI, it is also a passion project and I don't doubt he would be OK with some level of loss on his investment.
If the game does well enough, there won't be a need for the first scenario. If the game doesn't do well, then no one will be really left to care about what happens to it once they throw in rainbows, halos and wings into the store.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool
I agree this is "a" draw for a number of people.
However, if it was a big draw, games like The Sims Online would have been successful.
In 20 years, I have met exactly one person in a top end raid guild that cared about what their character looked like. With the exception of Archeage, I have never used a cosmetic only item in any game, and most of the members of my guild don't either.
Progression in an MMO is about getting better so that you can take on a harder target, so that you can get better so that you can take on a harder target.
Looks in an MMO are 100% subjective, and so simply can never be a factor in actual progression.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
The "they bought their looks guys that no one will mind or care about/respect"
The "they raided and pvp'ed for their looks and everyone will be impressed"
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
The crux of it is the question of will that continue to be the case after time has passed, or will Intrepid lose to greed somewhere down the road and sell cosmetics that look similar to released in-game sets or vice-versa.
History says that cash shops almost always eventually fall to that.
But that said, GW2 is still one of my favourite games even though it has a cash shop, or rather, in spite of it. Even though everyone runs around in immersion-breaking cosmetics. I definitely would rather pay a monthly sub for GW2 than have that theme creep.
I think the two large factors in those games perverting their income sources from a subscription to cash shop or pay to win scenario come down to:
Losing numbers in player base -> you therefore need to get the money you lose in subs somewhere else
Shareholders revenues-> if the company is publicly listed or owned by some large corp, they often demand a certain level of revenue. In Intrepid's case, Steven owns it all, and though he's of course looking to get some ROI, it is also a passion project and I don't doubt he would be OK with some level of loss on his investment.
If the game does well enough, there won't be a need for the first scenario. If the game doesn't do well, then no one will be really left to care about what happens to it once they throw in rainbows, halos and wings into the store.
In that same vein though, while less players = less subscriptions, less players also = less whaling.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We already know that cosmetics bought from the cash shop will look similar to what we can get in-game.
We also know that the differences will be distinct to those who care to know the differences.
There will be some who have respect for appearances and many who won't have respect for appearances.
I'm not impressed by people who one raids and dungeons.
I think titles will be more impressive than cosmetics.
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
The "they bought their looks guys that no one will mind or care about/respect"
The "they raided and pvp'ed for their looks and everyone will be impressed"
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
The crux of it is the question of will that continue to be the case after time has passed, or will Intrepid lose to greed somewhere down the road and sell cosmetics that look similar to released in-game sets or vice-versa.
History says that cash shops almost always eventually fall to that.
But that said, GW2 is still one of my favourite games even though it has a cash shop, or rather, in spite of it. Even though everyone runs around in immersion-breaking cosmetics. I definitely would rather pay a monthly sub for GW2 than have that theme creep.
I think the two large factors in those games perverting their income sources from a subscription to cash shop or pay to win scenario come down to:
Losing numbers in player base -> you therefore need to get the money you lose in subs somewhere else
Shareholders revenues-> if the company is publicly listed or owned by some large corp, they often demand a certain level of revenue. In Intrepid's case, Steven owns it all, and though he's of course looking to get some ROI, it is also a passion project and I don't doubt he would be OK with some level of loss on his investment.
If the game does well enough, there won't be a need for the first scenario. If the game doesn't do well, then no one will be really left to care about what happens to it once they throw in rainbows, halos and wings into the store.
In that same vein though, while less players = less subscriptions, less players also = less whaling.
Only if you assume that whales will be the first to leave a game they've invested so much on. The sunk cost fallacy keeps many a player in the game (ie: I haven't spent X thousand on this game to not play it).
Usually those will be some of those fewer people remaining. And the whaling will just keep the game afloat with those lower numbers of registered accounts.
You don't need whales to fund an MMORPG, whales only exist to fund greed, nothing more. This idea that you need players spending copius amounts of cash to keep the game afloat is ridiculous and the fact that some of you attempt to normalize & defend it signals to me that some of you are just defending the large sum you've spent already, it's taken to personally for me to believe otherwise. That or it's spawned from some unhealthy zealous hype that has left you unable to see flaws of Ashes.
Secondly, a few of you attempt to use cosmetics in isolation in your arguments. You'll remove it from the rest of the experience that goes along with it in an attempt to make it sound unimportant. The reality is that cosmetics are like the salt or spice you add to your food to make it taste good, on it's own it's terrible but when added with other forms of progression it leaves a satisfying taste in your mouth.
We already know that cosmetics bought from the cash shop will look similar to what we can get in-game.
I think titles will be more impressive than cosmetics.
There's no reason the two should be pitted against each other, they're both apart of the ingredients that lead to satisfying progression a removal of one, or the other, is a cheapening of what COULD be in game progression. Mind you that titles are purchasable in many MMORPGs with cash shops. You're trying to tell me my steak will taste fine with out salt, i only need pepper.
I've seen many of your posts, you're an older player who advocates for a casual environment. You may have once been hardcore and attempt to use that as a validation of your views saying to your self that it's not because you can't, but because you don't want to. Reality is you're not the type who's going to get those earned in game sets and so you're advocating for the cheapening of them so that you don't have to feel bad for not being able to compete on a high level, you want progression to mean nothing so you can feel on top as a casual. You're day has come and gone man, doesn't mean the game should be designed around your unwillingness to complete PvP and PvE content.
....If someone wants to purchase cosmetics that look similar to, but distinctly different than, what I acquired in-game, why am I supposed to care about that?
The cosmetic shop does not have the same rewards available in-game.
Thank you!
Aye - this is why yours truly won't be worried about attainability. Have seen a lot of un-needed crying over time about people having missed the monthly cosmetics, even in the face of knowing that close, like-variants will be available via crafting and looting. Steven's specifically made a point of mentioning this in the monthly update videos.
There'd be a lot less trash-threads like this if people would just watch the back-material and read the Wiki.
....If someone wants to purchase cosmetics that look similar to, but distinctly different than, what I acquired in-game, why am I supposed to care about that?
The cosmetic shop does not have the same rewards available in-game.
Thank you!
Aye - this is why yours truly won't be worried about attainability. Have seen a lot of un-needed crying over time about people having missed the monthly cosmetics, even in the face of knowing that close, like-variants will be available via crafting and looting. Steven's specifically made a point of mentioning this in the monthly update videos.
There'd be a lot less trash-threads like this if people would just watch the back-material and read the Wiki.
I've read and watched quite a bit sense the kick starter of this game and the more time has gone on the more i've witnessed changes in what cosmetics are supposed to be. Originally they were supposed to be "keeping in line with the game" but now we've got molten dwarves, angels, deities, faeries, god like skins, ect. These are already more intense skins and cosmetics than most MMORPGS, Ashes isn't taking the high road here and they aren't more consumer friendly than other companies in these actions.
And again, a recolor in the shop is the same as saying this in game reward is worthless.
Yep, anyone naive enough to think the payed cosmetics wont push boundaries and break earlier established rules are in for a wakeup call sooner or later. This is a question of how intrepid monetize their game so there are strong incentives in play.
Personally speaking, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when we get character races that are low fantasy and bland/boring for X reason only to have the devs go against whatever led them to that design decision with their cash shop models.
I just assume a constant pushback against over-the-top cosmetics will be a requirement from the community as I have little faith the devs will self-police very well (based on what they've already put out there).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I've read and watched quite a bit since the kick starter of this game and the more time has gone on the more i've witnessed changes in what cosmetics are supposed to be. Originally they were supposed to be "keeping in line with the game" but now we've got molten dwarves, angels, deities, faeries, god like skins, ect. These are already more intense skins and cosmetics than most MMORPGS, Ashes isn't taking the high road here and they aren't more consumer friendly than other companies in these actions.
And again, a recolor in the shop is the same as saying this in game reward is worthless.
Angels were in the Kickstarter.
I don't know what "keeping in line with the game" means to you.
To mean it means that we will have ways to find similar items in the game.
More intense than most MMORPGs is one of the goals of Ashes, so I dunno why you would be surprised that includes the cosmetics.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Personally speaking, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when we get character races that are low fantasy and bland/boring for X reason only to have the devs go against whatever led them to that design decision with their cash shop models.
I just assume a constant pushback against over-the-top cosmetics will be a requirement from the community as I have little faith the devs will self-police very well (based on what they've already put out there).
Tulnar are not low fantasy.
Many of the mobs that have been demoed so far have not been low fantasy.
Ashes has always been high fantasy.
Personally speaking, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when we get character races that are low fantasy and bland/boring for X reason only to have the devs go against whatever led them to that design decision with their cash shop models.
I just assume a constant pushback against over-the-top cosmetics will be a requirement from the community as I have little faith the devs will self-police very well (based on what they've already put out there).
Tulnar are not low fantasy.
Many of the mobs that have been demoed so far have not been low fantasy.
Ashes has always been high fantasy.
1. Tulnar models have not been released yet so you have nothing to speak on there.
2. mobs? I was talking about character races/models.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have plenty to speak on because the concept of the Tulnar is high fantasy; not low fantasy.
I don't understand why you would look at high fantasy mobs and think that the characters would be low fantasy. I already pointed out, first, that the Tulnar are a high fantasy concept.
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Your first comment is correct and something that most people are overlooking is the fact that they want the end game gear to look better than cash shop cosmetics anyway. This alone completely destroys the crying about a cash shop. Don't even get me started on the people saying that Intrepid doesn't need cash shop profits since there is a monthly subscription.....those people are literal internet Karens.
Your second comment I disagree with. It will not remove the appeal of cosmetic gathering at all. People often seek to collect all sorts of stupid looking gear just to have it. In my scenario, I don't usually like playing dress up in games. I am playing an Orc Tank. I will be using the fattest gear I can find. Whatever makes me the most visible the easiest on the battle field is what I want to wear. If something ever comes out that makes me look even bigger, I will go for it. I bought one extra set of skins in the cash shop to support the developer and the artists (I like mushrooms but don't eat them oddly enough).
It is a different topic but yeah, I hate the idea of hiding gear through a cosmetic....we'll see how it turns out lol.
If a person sees a set in the cosmetic store they fall in love with, they won't care about any other set. I don't see how that being a scenario is impossible. I imagine there will also be people that think along the lines of "I've paid for this set, if I don't wear it it's a waste of money."
I do agree entirely that there will be a large number or people that will still want to go out and collect cosmetics. but "It will not remove the appeal of cosmetic gathering at all" must be a subjective view.
Maybe I should amend my opinion to "removes the appeal in some scenarios.."
I feel like the thing about your argument here is that it works both ways.
But at the end of the day cosmetics are going to happen, I think it would be nice if we can get the ability to toggle them off for the sake of our own game play preference.
But when it comes to wow, it's just ridicules. They have a box price and a subscribtion
I understand the need to supplement the games income to compete with the industry. I also think if a game does cosmetic progression correctly it will just add players to the game that the extra supplement is less necessary. To me, I think only in game looks should be obtainable and sought after in game and a cash shop can add effects, or colors to the in game armor/clothing to enhance their look. That way to get how you look in game is still within the confines of the game and if you want to give the look more pop then support the game with a little micro transaction. You earned this sweet chest piece that has a unlockable fire effect in three colors. I mean put that behind a cash shop, not the piece of armor, make the player get it and if they want more out of it, then purchase that. Giving the player a reason to want to make the microtransaction because they put the effort just to get that item to be able to buy that particular transaction. Personally I wish this were more a crafting thing someone can do so its even more of a social/economic need within the game but I understand there does need to be a way to compete financially. But not at the expense of in game progression, especially with attainable gear since it such a major draw for players.
You think they are removing their own content by selling cosmtics? What? The content is me demolishing your castle and taking your things.
You believe the entire social structure of AoC is degrading itself by offering clothing cosmetics. You think people hop around from mmo to mmo because the "social stigma" that is created by crafted gear and found gear is being diluted by in game cosmetics?
People are jumping from mmo to mmo because right now mmo's are complete dog shit with RMT, cheaters, pay to win mechanics (including pay for convenience) , daily login bonuses, lack of difficulty, lack of end game content, and so much more that will not be in AoC. The genre is not failing because people want to play dress up.
I don't want them, I don't even want my idea of them I would rather it was fully in game as I stated, but you didn't read that, you just wanted to rip on me for some reason. I'm here because of this in your statement is correct and I do think Ashes is trying something to improve the overall genre.
I said part of the reason mmos struggle, not the main reason. And my statement was about vanity which this post is originally about and your excluding that from your reason as to why these games are struggling. And i am here saying its also part of the problem and there is less to strive for in game and a looks is a huge component of that to many players. Maybe not you, but its not just for YOU. All I tried to do was meet somewhere in the middle and provide solutions instead of spend my time typing out tears about how games suck.
What is an acceptable RMT to you? What would you rather see in the shop? Because regardless of how much you cry about it, the shop is going to be there. Or just whine and complain some more. I'll take the feedback on what I brought forth but what my idea was simply based on a simple business logic. I have simply put the RMT behind a 'Play Wall' instead of a 'Pay Wall' or a 'Pay for how you look'. Meaning the player has to earn to opportunity choose if they even want it and the developer has to make the game well enough where the player feels its deserved to give them more money. Creating a positive feedback loop between player and developer.
If I'm progressing my character and doing quests, I want some rewards - hopefully, those rewards will help make my character's skills and abilities better - either vertically or horizontally. I'm not necessarily interested in getting cosmetics as rewards for quests or for constructing and defending nodes.
The primary reason to explore and construct and defend a city is because I want the perks provided by the city. Someone purchasing cosmetics does not interfere with any of that.
If someone wants to purchase cosmetics that look similar to, but distinctly different than, what I acquired in-game, why am I supposed to care about that?
The cosmetic shop does not have the same rewards available in-game.
For real though dude, your wall of text was a bit hard to follow as it seemed like yet another mindless rant about nothing relevant. You have the balls to bash my reading comprehension but you start sentences with "and" and don't capitalize your i's lol. Kindly gtfo.
After reading your reply to me a second time (yeah it took me two since I wasn't able to comprehend the rambling at first), I am realizing that you think RMT means the cash shop. RMT is for real money trades between players and other players or farmers. Getting an item in game and selling it on a market place external to the game world. Then meeting up in game and giving it to your buyer. RMT is NOT a cosmetic cash shop from Intrepid. RMT's create bots that auto farm for a profit (IE gold farmers in WOW). I hope you understand this?
You're right, the cosmetic shop will definitely always be there and I am glad it is. Anything they do to make more money to further fund the game I expect to play for several years is 100% welcomed by me as I have dedicated at LEAST 3 years to my guild as their leader.
Intrepid has come out to say several things in regards to the shop. The best looking gear will still be crafted or found from raiding. The current cosmetics will not be purchasable in the future. Different variations can be crafted or found (different colors and such). It will never be pay to win or convenience. They "may" make cosmetics apply to only ONE character with a potential option of switching it on cooldown. They are being accommodating AF in regards to what options they could implement if they were a grimy greedy company like so many developers out there.
Lastly, the clothing visuals that increase from lvl 1 to lvl 50 are indeed a cool aspect of the game. Starting out looking like a naked or a bum and ending up looking like a badass is definitely part of the game. I would consider this a mini game. It doesn't do anything unless you are roleplaying with people (and in that regard you will have hundreds of options in your collection). If you are taken out of the game because you are lvl 20, (looking like a level 20) and I roll along at lvl 1, 20, or even 50 but I am in my mushroom cosmetic.....then there is no hope for you. This is something that is going to happen in the game.
For me personally, im used to playing on a potato pc anyway so all your fancy cosmetics still looks like shit in low settings.
Question to the pro-cosmetic cashshop guys; How do you feel about being able to toggle on/off cosmetics?
Very well put, alot of people cry about lack of meaningful progression in MMORPGS these days and one of the big draws of progression was looking cool, if you can just buy that progression it's just one less reason you have to push new content and get that cool looking armor. Looking cool used to be a sign of prestige, and what happens with cosmetics is they muddy the waters, if any one can buy their way to looking cool then looking cool in general has no meaning, it doesn't matter if there's in game armor sets that look as good as paid ones it's still going to muddy the waters. If i release a pair of red demon wings in the cash shop and blue demon wings from the raid boss, then guess what, the blue demon wings are worthless, it doesn't have the same shock and awe of knowing these demon wings only can be obtained by killing the legendary Edge Lord of Mount Angst.
MMORPG players need to realize that cosmetics in MMORPGs are a form of progression and when you buy appearances you're paying to skip the hard work it would take to find a cool looking in game set, thus robbing your self of content. It's pay to skip because visuals in MMORPG are content & progression. If you're okay with that then you're okay with that, but being in denial of this reality helps no one.
Again, it's a moot discussion bc it's already happened but I strongly advocate for a toggle cosmetics off feature, this would allow those of us who want to be immersed in the fantasy of progression to be appeased whilst also allowing the pay to skip crowd to get what they want.
That's how you get people to stick around and pay for subs during the months and years where you have no other new content and you're waiting for the next expansion.
Does it not matter that you can't actually buy that progression?
There will be two groups:
Those two looks being different and people knowing how that player achieved each, is gonna make a big difference, and it won't devalue your achievement, nor will it entirely invalidate the purchase of a cosmetic.
The crux of it is the question of will that continue to be the case after time has passed, or will Intrepid lose to greed somewhere down the road and sell cosmetics that look similar to released in-game sets or vice-versa.
History says that cash shops almost always eventually fall to that.
But that said, GW2 is still one of my favourite games even though it has a cash shop, or rather, in spite of it. Even though everyone runs around in immersion-breaking cosmetics. I definitely would rather pay a monthly sub for GW2 than have that theme creep.
I think the two large factors in those games perverting their income sources from a subscription to cash shop or pay to win scenario come down to:
Losing numbers in player base -> you therefore need to get the money you lose in subs somewhere else
Shareholders revenues-> if the company is publicly listed or owned by some large corp, they often demand a certain level of revenue. In Intrepid's case, Steven owns it all, and though he's of course looking to get some ROI, it is also a passion project and I don't doubt he would be OK with some level of loss on his investment.
If the game does well enough, there won't be a need for the first scenario. If the game doesn't do well, then no one will be really left to care about what happens to it once they throw in rainbows, halos and wings into the store.
However, if it was a big draw, games like The Sims Online would have been successful.
In 20 years, I have met exactly one person in a top end raid guild that cared about what their character looked like. With the exception of Archeage, I have never used a cosmetic only item in any game, and most of the members of my guild don't either.
Progression in an MMO is about getting better so that you can take on a harder target, so that you can get better so that you can take on a harder target.
Looks in an MMO are 100% subjective, and so simply can never be a factor in actual progression.
In that same vein though, while less players = less subscriptions, less players also = less whaling.
We also know that the differences will be distinct to those who care to know the differences.
There will be some who have respect for appearances and many who won't have respect for appearances.
I'm not impressed by people who one raids and dungeons.
I think titles will be more impressive than cosmetics.
Only if you assume that whales will be the first to leave a game they've invested so much on. The sunk cost fallacy keeps many a player in the game (ie: I haven't spent X thousand on this game to not play it).
Usually those will be some of those fewer people remaining. And the whaling will just keep the game afloat with those lower numbers of registered accounts.
Secondly, a few of you attempt to use cosmetics in isolation in your arguments. You'll remove it from the rest of the experience that goes along with it in an attempt to make it sound unimportant. The reality is that cosmetics are like the salt or spice you add to your food to make it taste good, on it's own it's terrible but when added with other forms of progression it leaves a satisfying taste in your mouth.
There's no reason the two should be pitted against each other, they're both apart of the ingredients that lead to satisfying progression a removal of one, or the other, is a cheapening of what COULD be in game progression. Mind you that titles are purchasable in many MMORPGs with cash shops. You're trying to tell me my steak will taste fine with out salt, i only need pepper.
I've seen many of your posts, you're an older player who advocates for a casual environment. You may have once been hardcore and attempt to use that as a validation of your views saying to your self that it's not because you can't, but because you don't want to. Reality is you're not the type who's going to get those earned in game sets and so you're advocating for the cheapening of them so that you don't have to feel bad for not being able to compete on a high level, you want progression to mean nothing so you can feel on top as a casual. You're day has come and gone man, doesn't mean the game should be designed around your unwillingness to complete PvP and PvE content.
Thank you!
Aye - this is why yours truly won't be worried about attainability. Have seen a lot of un-needed crying over time about people having missed the monthly cosmetics, even in the face of knowing that close, like-variants will be available via crafting and looting. Steven's specifically made a point of mentioning this in the monthly update videos.
There'd be a lot less trash-threads like this if people would just watch the back-material and read the Wiki.
I've read and watched quite a bit sense the kick starter of this game and the more time has gone on the more i've witnessed changes in what cosmetics are supposed to be. Originally they were supposed to be "keeping in line with the game" but now we've got molten dwarves, angels, deities, faeries, god like skins, ect. These are already more intense skins and cosmetics than most MMORPGS, Ashes isn't taking the high road here and they aren't more consumer friendly than other companies in these actions.
And again, a recolor in the shop is the same as saying this in game reward is worthless.
Personally speaking, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when we get character races that are low fantasy and bland/boring for X reason only to have the devs go against whatever led them to that design decision with their cash shop models.
I just assume a constant pushback against over-the-top cosmetics will be a requirement from the community as I have little faith the devs will self-police very well (based on what they've already put out there).
I don't know what "keeping in line with the game" means to you.
To mean it means that we will have ways to find similar items in the game.
More intense than most MMORPGs is one of the goals of Ashes, so I dunno why you would be surprised that includes the cosmetics.
Many of the mobs that have been demoed so far have not been low fantasy.
Ashes has always been high fantasy.
2. mobs? I was talking about character races/models.
I don't understand why you would look at high fantasy mobs and think that the characters would be low fantasy. I already pointed out, first, that the Tulnar are a high fantasy concept.