I'm not asking for a change. I'm the advocate for the original idea which was no inspections.
In BDO each class is distinct. Though similar costumes do exist for all classes they are individual to each class. Also, the karma turns you red but you can also go red karma by hunting protected animals (protected animals give more meat).
Much like most MMOs I have played there is no real penalty for killing low levels. In one MMO I played killing low levels gave you PvP experience and pvp levels if you did it long enough.
The switch is you can build a low level twink and kill top level players. I'm not sure if a low level player could do that in Ashes though. I also believe that classes will be distinct in Ashes but on a broader scale.
We've discussed before that my friend is a ganker in MMOs and also my partner when we twink against higher toons. The major issue remains that if PvP armour is locked to max level and subsequent pvp levels, twinks must be selective in targets. Pvp armour levels are also distinct so you don't usually inspect the target.
The good news remains that Ashes won't have pvp levels and pvp armour. It is too early for me to say whether a lower level twink is viable in Ashes. In theory if the augments are rather tame you could possibly attempt a level 50 at level 25 if the augments aren't substantial. I know very little about the augments though and I just fancied an open response.
Oh yeah, also you would sometimes 1v1 a max level if you were a dps/healer and they were a straight melee. You wouldn't really fight a ranged toon or anyone actually powerful with max raid gear or max pvp gear. I don't think you could delevel from xp debt in Ashes and if you can flag against higher level players they would hopefully not go corrupt. Of course, its just all theories because I learn something new every day. Though, if you're willing to do the time the xp debt could be worked off. The good news is if you never want the twink to level past a specific level, xp debt is a gift.
Well one thing to keep in mind is that people being able to inspect your gear is a source of toxicity.
There are always people trolling about some ones bad build. Plus might not even be a bad build just not the cookei cutter meta build that some web site told them it was optimal.
If we are not going to have dps meters to make a less toxic server well then having hiddens profiles is in order I think.
Let me ask you a question when is it necessary to see a persons gear and set up. Well it would be pretty handy in PvP but that is a game decision could go either way. If you are trying to get into a guild or in a guild your guildies might want to see your set to help you not troll on you. Espeicailly a raiding guild.
Unfortunately this game is about builds and there such things as bad builds so so someone could be very help ful and actually make you aware of that. Talking about builds that actually kind of hurt the group.
So how about this if you are in a group then people can look at your gear.
As far as profiles and how much people can learn about you by looking up your profile is also a source of toxicity but very useful for determining if a toon is actually as good as they claim to be to determine if they are qualified to be in your raid group. So if you are trying to get into a guild ro pvp team then option to disclose proile to there.
But if you are let say not in a group like questing at auction house or grinding or or some activity in a node do you really wnat people looking up your set or profile telling you what build you should have or that you do not have something enchanted.
I'm not asking for a change. I'm the advocate for the original idea which was no inspections.
I'm not saying you ate, just that the different systems in Ashes create a different need.
In BDO, you can basically always tell what class and weapon someone is using.
I Ashes, I could be a mage running at you in full plate armor, with a giant two handed sword, yet you see me as someone in leather armor holding a bow, because that is what cosmetic I am wearing.
This is the difference between the games that makes the idea of inspection in Ashes different to BDO.
I'm not asking for a change. I'm the advocate for the original idea which was no inspections.
I'm not saying you ate, just that the different systems in Ashes create a different need.
In BDO, you can basically always tell what class and weapon someone is using.
I Ashes, I could be a mage running at you in full plate armor, with a giant two handed sword, yet you see me as someone in leather armor holding a bow, because that is what cosmetic I am wearing.
This is the difference between the games that makes the idea of inspection in Ashes different to BDO.
Class, yes, but weapon and armor? Not if they are wearing a cosmetic. BDO's weapons are separated by class so the main meaningful distinction have subtler key playstyle differences that usually hint heavily at their build if you somehow found out. Same with their armor.
This issue is resolved by Intrepid having sound cosmetic implementation relative to this issue (no bow skins on swords) and having the ability to inspect people's cosmetics and transmogs. You don't have to go deeper than that. Make cosmetic and 'what slots are transmog' inspectable without consent and the general details of your build optional by request. A pretty fair and simple balance between the two.
Well one thing to keep in mind is that people being able to inspect your gear is a source of toxicity.
Okay I guess I can sort of understand this point. Guilds can force people to send screenshots or design some way to figure this out if they're serious enough about it though. So I'm not sure it's worth it to implement this if the reason is just to try to reduce toxicity.
This issue is resolved by Intrepid having sound cosmetic implementation relative to this issue (no bow skins on swords) and having the ability to inspect people's cosmetics and transmogs.
While I agree that things would be better if you could only use cosmetics that are in line with the weapon you are using, since that has been ruled out already (we are free to use any cosmetic at all that we like, regardless of the item type we are using), that alters the need for being able to inspect others.
Well one thing to keep in mind is that people being able to inspect your gear is a source of toxicity.
You don't need to be able to inspect someone's gear to know if they are using a standard build or not.
Your entire point only holds true if individual skills can't be identified while they are being cast. If they can be identified, people can see what skills a player has selected to use. That is all that is needed for the "toxicity" you are talking about here, and being able to inspect gear makes no difference at all.
Now, if Ashes were aiming to be a "no toxicity" game, and said they were going to remove all animations and effects from all abilities in leu of a standard animation, then this point has some merit.
Anything short of that, and the above point is meaningless.
I really really dislike the idea of any sort of inspection. If someone wants to speak to me about my set-up, let them speak to me, not slyly sneak up to me and steal the info without my permission.
If you absolutely have to have a request system for it, at least give me a character setting to "Automatically Decline Inspection Requests", so I don't have to continually keep declining over and over. It'd be like the bloody Duel Requests in ESO before they brought in the Auto Decline. Ugh.
All I want to know of a player, and all I want them to know about me is: Name, Guild, Level. Let me make my own choice about them myself, rather than handing it all to me on a platter. You've given the impression that you're not wanting to 'dumb down' to the level of other games. Stick to that mentality!
I find it somewhat alarming that we will most likely be with guilds or trusted people or other node citizens for most of the game yet people want access to strangers too. I do not see the need for inspections because you won't hide your builds from friends.
In pvp situations you will have limited time to inspect someone. If you want inspection so you can better determine whether to gank someone then I am opposed to such a notion.
I have no issues with my guild and friends understanding my builds, helping to improve my builds and obviously being alongside my builds. I have an issue with unwanted inspections by players who have no business to understand the intricacies of another person's build.
On a side note, I believe transmogs should be limited to similar items. I'm not too concerned about light armour skins on heavy armour which Noanni advised me about but if I can put a sword on a bow the game will be a clusterfuck of a mess.
I think the idea of a perception-based ability to inspect what is visible with range playing a factor is a good idea from a role-play perspective and a "request to inspect" (that's declinable) fits in there just as well. It's not significantly different from walking up to some dude and saying, "Hey, show me your gear" in an enthusiastic way and then listening as it's described or walking away unsatisfied because he or she wouldn't share - but without the overhead of having to do that.
I really really dislike the idea of any sort of inspection. If someone wants to speak to me about my set-up, let them speak to me, not slyly sneak up to me and steal the info without my permission.
You say this like it is your prerogative to withhold that information, but have given no reason as to why you have that prerogative.
If you and I are walking down the street, I can see if you are wearing high end clothing labels. You have no real right to stop me from gleaning that information from you
Then you have the practical matter of it all. If you are wearing g shoes that would be good for a long distance hike, I will be able to see that. If you are wearing clothing that leaves you with no place to keep items (waller, phone, knife), then I will also be able to see that.
In Ashes, we have no real way to see this basic information. The level of detail we have would be me being able to tell that you have some sort of denim based clothing on the lower half of your body - which could be jeans, a denim skirt, Daisy Dukes, or even full on double denim for all I know.
My character should be able to glean the same information by looking at your character as I can fain from looking at you. You do not and should not have the right to withhold that information.
Since we can not assume any information at all from looking at a character, inspect is the next logical place for that information to be made available.
If you are wearing a set of dragon sce armor that you have enchanted to +6, I shouldn't be able to see that +6 at all (barring an enchant or identification skill). However, I should know straight away that you are wearing dragon scale armor, and nothing you are able to do should be able to prevent me from knowing that.
I really really dislike the idea of any sort of inspection. If someone wants to speak to me about my set-up, let them speak to me, not slyly sneak up to me and steal the info without my permission.
You say this like it is your prerogative to withhold that information, but have given no reason as to why you have that prerogative.
If you and I are walking down the street, I can see if you are wearing high end clothing labels. You have no real right to stop me from gleaning that information from you
Then you have the practical matter of it all. If you are wearing g shoes that would be good for a long distance hike, I will be able to see that. If you are wearing clothing that leaves you with no place to keep items (waller, phone, knife), then I will also be able to see that.
In Ashes, we have no real way to see this basic information. The level of detail we have would be me being able to tell that you have some sort of denim based clothing on the lower half of your body - which could be jeans, a denim skirt, Daisy Dukes, or even full on double denim for all I know.
My character should be able to glean the same information by looking at your character as I can fain from looking at you. You do not and should not have the right to withhold that information.
Since we can not assume any information at all from looking at a character, inspect is the next logical place for that information to be made available.
If you are wearing a set of dragon sce armor that you have enchanted to +6, I shouldn't be able to see that +6 at all (barring an enchant or identification skill). However, I should know straight away that you are wearing dragon scale armor, and nothing you are able to do should be able to prevent me from knowing that.
I agree with being able to see basic details about gear, if it's tied to a life skill. A novice adventurer wouldn't know a low grade sword from a high end sword at a glance. But someone who has spent years around weapons by either using them or crafting them would be able to tell quite a bit from a passerby's appearance. If inspections stays at that depth, I'm fine with it, but as I said in a prior post, if my build can be read outright, it's too much.
I really really dislike the idea of any sort of inspection. If someone wants to speak to me about my set-up, let them speak to me, not slyly sneak up to me and steal the info without my permission.
You say this like it is your prerogative to withhold that information, but have given no reason as to why you have that prerogative.
If you and I are walking down the street, I can see if you are wearing high end clothing labels. You have no real right to stop me from gleaning that information from you
Then you have the practical matter of it all. If you are wearing g shoes that would be good for a long distance hike, I will be able to see that. If you are wearing clothing that leaves you with no place to keep items (waller, phone, knife), then I will also be able to see that.
In Ashes, we have no real way to see this basic information. The level of detail we have would be me being able to tell that you have some sort of denim based clothing on the lower half of your body - which could be jeans, a denim skirt, Daisy Dukes, or even full on double denim for all I know.
My character should be able to glean the same information by looking at your character as I can fain from looking at you. You do not and should not have the right to withhold that information.
Since we can not assume any information at all from looking at a character, inspect is the next logical place for that information to be made available.
If you are wearing a set of dragon sce armor that you have enchanted to +6, I shouldn't be able to see that +6 at all (barring an enchant or identification skill). However, I should know straight away that you are wearing dragon scale armor, and nothing you are able to do should be able to prevent me from knowing that.
I agree with being able to see basic details about gear, if it's tied to a life skill. A novice adventurer wouldn't know a low grade sword from a high end sword at a glance. But someone who has spent years around weapons by either using them or crafting them would be able to tell quite a bit from a passerby's appearance. If inspections stays at that depth, I'm fine with it, but as I said in a prior post, if my build can be read outright, it's too much.
I have not seen any game in which a build of another player can be examined in any way in game.
I'm sure they exist, but I've literally never seen it, and don't expect to ever see it in a decent game.
Then you have the practical matter of it all. If you are wearing g shoes that would be good for a long distance hike, I will be able to see that. If you are wearing clothing that leaves you with no place to keep items (waller, phone, knife), then I will also be able to see that.
In Ashes, we have no real way to see this basic information. The level of detail we have would be me being able to tell that you have some sort of denim based clothing on the lower half of your body - which could be jeans, a denim skirt, Daisy Dukes, or even full on double denim for all I know.
My character should be able to glean the same information by looking at your character as I can fain from looking at you. You do not and should not have the right to withhold that information.
If you are wearing a set of dragon sce armor that you have enchanted to +6, I shouldn't be able to see that +6 at all (barring an enchant or identification skill). However, I should know straight away that you are wearing dragon scale armor, and nothing you are able to do should be able to prevent me from knowing that.
But, is it denim? Or is it a good quality lookalike? Am I wearing leather shoes, or imitation leather shoes? Do I have an insole in my shoes? Is my shirt 100% cotton, or part polyester? Does it help keep me cool, or does it make me sweat? Assuming that different armour sets are going to give different bonuses (otherwise, what would be the point?) being able to see exactly what I'm wearing tells you whether I'm wearing that insole, or whether my shirt makes me too hot.
As far as the cosmetics/transmogs go, if I'm wearing a long overcoat, then you're not going to see what I'm wearing at all. The cosmetic/transmog is the overcoat. For example: the "Hot Fuzz" couldn't tell that Mr Treacher had a shotgun under his coat, cos his cosmetic/transmog covered it up.
A more Fantasy-based example: The cave troll in LOTR stabbed Frodo in the chest with an enormous spear, but it didn't kill him, cos the troll couldn't see he was wearing his Mithril armour underneath his shirt.
If it had been able to inspect/view the Mithril armour, it would have just thought "Sod it", and gone for someone else instead.
I get that people want hand-holding and spoon-feeding with info, but Ashes just doesn't seem like the hand-holdy spoon-feedy kind of game.
But, is it denim? Or is it a good quality lookalike? Am I wearing leather shoes, or imitation leather shoes? Do I have an insole in my shoes? Is my shirt 100% cotton, or part polyester? Does it help keep me cool, or does it make me sweat? Assuming that different armour sets are going to give different bonuses (otherwise, what would be the point?) being able to see exactly what I'm wearing tells you whether I'm wearing that insole, or whether my shirt makes me too hot.
Even an untrained eye can spot the bests fake leather. A trained eye can spot the difference between cotton and cotton blends (the way a garment moves is key here).
As to your trench coat example - you actually can tell if someone has an item that is somewhat smaller than a shotgun under their coat - again it is a movement thing. They move with less freedom, and you will be able to see the outline of the item in question as their clothing moves about. The bigger the item (the butt of a shotgun is a large item to try and conceal), the easier it is to spot.
If you were wearing a trench coat over top of plate armor, I'm fairly sure that would be noticed.
I have to assume you were not at all serious bringing an Edgar Wright movie in as a point. It's story telling, not an attempt at actual accuracy.
To you LotR example - mithril in Middle Earth was so rare that most thought it was an actual myth. If sold, the value of that one piece of armor was higher than the value of the entire Shire. If Intrepid wanted to put in an item with that kind of rarity (average of one per several million players) to enable people to fool inspection, I'd be fine with that.
So even in your fantasy setting, your example doesn't really work.
To your final point about spoon feeding information - that makes me think you didn't actually read what I said.
We should have the ability to see what people are actually using in combat against us. If you have dragon scale armor, I should know that. I don't need to know the enchantment you have put on it (ie, your "spoon fed" information), and I could even see an argument about not being able to see the specific allocation of stats the item has (though an equally strong argument exists where someone with a high enchanting skill should be able to see enchants, and someone with a high armor smithing skill should be able to see the stat allocation). However, there is no argument you can make that would make any actual sense for players to not be able to tell if you have dragon scale armor on.
Again, if an untrained eye can spot fake leather from real leather, if a trained eye can tell the difference between cotton and cotton blend, then someone that has their life potentially riding on it should be able to tell the difference between a dragon scale and a chunk of iron.
We should have the ability to see what people are actually using in combat against us. If you have dragon scale armor, I should know that.
No we shouldn't have to. I understand you would like to, as that is the type of game mechanics you would enjoy more. I would much prefer if it wasn't possible to see automatically by just clicking inspection, or via an icon. We have built in cosmetics and transmogs in the game, essentially magically changing the appearance of items. Call it illusion or transmogrification, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the items now look a certain other way. It makes no sense to just ignore that fact. Bringing RL into this doesn't really apply IMO. It's magic. I also think gear inspection detracts from the gameplay.
So again, I want no inspection of any kind. If they absolutely must incorporate something, I would actually prefer it being skill and proximity based, where people close by could learn to see some basic gear info, like type, tier and rarity. Never stats. And also never character skills/specs. I could tolerate a toggle system, where it's possible for me to turn off being inspected completely, but there are some real downsides to that as well I think, where it could establish a norm that players need to let themselves be inspected before joining groups, which I believe to be bad for the community as a whole.
I have to assume you were not at all serious bringing an Edgar Wright movie in as a point. It's story telling, not an attempt at actual accuracy.
Well, it is, yes, but I'm sure you're also aware that Ashes isn't based in Real Life, and just as in TES3: Morrowind, if you have a character wear a robe over your armour, you ain't seeing that armour.
Anyway, I'm not wasting 70 pages arguing about this with you, cos I learn from my past. I don't like the inspection idea, and I don't care if you don't like that I don't like it.
You should only ever use this as an argument along with jazz hands, honestly.
This is the argument you use to justify a thing you want that is otherwise unable to be justified.
Lol, no, read what I wrote. The reason I don't want it is that it's bad gameplay design and bad for the community. That's the justification. The magic part is an explanation for the lore side of things, in response to bringing up RL skills into a magic skills debate.
You should only ever use this as an argument along with jazz hands, honestly.
This is the argument you use to justify a thing you want that is otherwise unable to be justified.
Lol, no, read what I wrote. The reason I don't want it is that it's bad gameplay design and bad for the community. That's the justification. The magic part is an explanation for the lore side of things.
Why is it bad gameplay design for me to have an idea of what kind of threat someone about to attack me could pose?
Many would consider that kind of information to be the very foundation of player agency - if decisions we make are to have an impact, we should have some basic information to inform that decision.
Based on what you are saying here though, I assume you are perfectly fine with not knowing which race or class it is you are picking. You surely must be fine with not knowing what item you are about to create, the effects of a spell you can put points in to or what the stats are of an item you find. This is all just different pieces of information that are given to the player in order to allow us to make good decisions - and information on a potential threat or target is - in a game like Ashes - the most important piece of information we could have.
I mean, why are you arguing that this piece of information is less important for players to have than any other piece of information?
The funniest issue to date is the fact there are racial skins not just costume skins. I won't even be able to determine the base stats for some people's toons who have racial skins. The whole setup is not conducive to free flow information. The premise for the game was originally no inspections which made sense with all the facets, but, now the devs have decided to open a can of worms. We have people asking for inspections when most of the time they will be with their guilds - either hardcore or softcore.
In sieges, the devs will normalise the equipment so you will be able to tell at a glance how someone is kitted out. We have the armour icon buff which will also show you what you are facing. Once again, we have a situation where people want the carrot and the stick.
People will still compliment your gear even if they can't inspect the gear. It's up to the individual player if they want to disclose what the gear is or how to get the gear. The inspections should not show stats and enchantments if it is implemented. I also believe the game will be better off sticking to original idea of no inspections.
Furthermore, crafted items will have signature traits and a chosen look based on what the crafter has chosen. Two pieces of armour will probably not look the same even if two crafters make the same item. It would be hilarious if a snooper detects 'Dragon Scale Boots' loves the look and finds someone to craft the item only to receive the item and it looks completely different because the crafter decided to switch up the routine. Even the exact same crafter might have to change a design in order to facilitate the design because some resources or style components could be hard to come by.
In terms of battling for grind spots in the open world you will be killed much faster if you inspect someone. If the fights last 30 or 60 seconds and you spend 10 seconds inspecting someone, then you've gimped yourself and your information would not be able to be put to use. You're better off learning signature traits of skills, weapon abilities and the armour icons so you can glean the parameters in 1 or 2 seconds. It will be a big task because of all the augments but in other MMOs I have learnt about all the classes in order to be more effective in PvP.
You should only ever use this as an argument along with jazz hands, honestly.
This is the argument you use to justify a thing you want that is otherwise unable to be justified.
Lol, no, read what I wrote. The reason I don't want it is that it's bad gameplay design and bad for the community. That's the justification. The magic part is an explanation for the lore side of things.
Why is it bad gameplay design for me to have an idea of what kind of threat someone about to attack me could pose?
Many would consider that kind of information to be the very foundation of player agency - if decisions we make are to have an impact, we should have some basic information to inform that decision.
Based on what you are saying here though, I assume you are perfectly fine with not knowing which race or class it is you are picking. You surely must be fine with not knowing what item you are about to create, the effects of a spell you can put points in to or what the stats are of an item you find. This is all just different pieces of information that are given to the player in order to allow us to make good decisions - and information on a potential threat or target is - in a game like Ashes - the most important piece of information we could have.
I mean, why are you arguing that this piece of information is less important for players to have than any other piece of information?
Ok now you're just being super silly with those examples.
Intrepid already limits the info you get from other players by not showing the exact amount on the health bar for example. Something that is pretty important to your survival too. They've talked about an icon next to the nameplate showing some info on the type of armor the other player is wearing. I already said in a previous post I would be ok with that as long as it doesn't reveal too much. An icon showing the weapon type is ok as well. So it's perfectly in line with what Intrepid has previously stated they are going for to not want inspection.
As a player you just need to pay attention to what the other player is doing and you'll know archetype and maybe even class if you're good. If you're being attacked you have no time to inspect anyway. It's fight, flight or stand there and let them kill you so they gain corruption. You can gauge their gear by how hard they hit or are being hit. If you are the attacker you already have the advantage. No need to compound that advantage by letting you inspect the target first.
We should have the ability to see what people are actually using in combat against us.
The reason is because you can't walk up to someone in real life and 'inspect' their underwear. In game terms, my dragon scale outfit would be the underwear and the cosmetic skin will be the outside appearance. You are not prevented from seeing the outside appearance - or designer items as you put it, but, if you want to delve deeper and strip someone to see their underwear you'd be visited by more than Bounty Hunters lol.
On the one hand I find that being able to inspect another player's equipment is "normal" but on the other hand and depending on how the PvP is going to be in the game, it may be better to do so with player's permission.
If there is the possibility of PK in the game, it would be enough to inspect the player in town and wait for him at the exit. Information should be hidden and shared only with our friends or our group.
When I say information, I mean the equipment but also the level, HP, etc ...
Players who want PK will think twice before attacking a player and will have to put some ploy into place to be sure to win.
We should have the ability to see what people are actually using in combat against us.
The reason is because you can't walk up to someone in real life and 'inspect' their underwear. In game terms, my dragon scale outfit would be the underwear and the cosmetic skin will be the outside appearance. You are not prevented from seeing the outside appearance - or designer items as you put it, but, if you want to delve deeper and strip someone to see their underwear you'd be visited by more than Bounty Hunters lol.
I'm not keen on the way you start out with a reality based argument, and then end with what is basically "I can put a coat over my full plate armor so you can't see it", which is about as far from reality as it is possible to get.
If you are wearing something over your armor (ESPECIALLY plate armor), then you should have your movement restricted. Cloth over plate armor would very easily get in gaps between plates - which is why it is not something that ever happened.
So, do you want to argue this from a reality perspective, or not?
Have you seen the cosmetics at all for this game? Some cosmetics change your actual skin on your toon (I'm not talking about the racial skins, but, the costume skins like Sorrow). In my mind, albeit a high and very mischievous mind I find the notion to be quite funny. How do you know Dragon Scales aren't a type of leather armour? I haven't seen a metal dragon. In such a circumstance, although leather can be restricted and chafe, you could quite easily hide leather garments under cloth garments. You might not win any fashion awards and you may appear like a bloated mess, but, the skins can transform the appearance to such a degree that you would be a whole new model of yourself.
One could choose a Dwarf and add bulk to the bulk already, or choose an Orc and add bulk to the bulk. How would one know whether the bulk is because of a Dwarf or Orc body shape or because leather armour is beneath the cloth armour without an inspection tool? I'm still an advocate for no inspections but I do enjoy the whole concept and the banter.
Have you seen the cosmetics at all for this game? Some cosmetics change your actual skin on your toon (I'm not talking about the racial skins, but, the costume skins like Sorrow).
Indeed.
But the decision to make it so you can wear any cosmetic regardless of what you are using, and the lack of an option for players to be able to toggle that off so they can see your actual gear - that is all just a business decision. You can't ask people to pay money for something that is only about looks, and then give others the option to turn off being able to see it.
An inspect system should replace the ability to do this. It is literally adding back to the game something that was taken out as a purely business decision.
Basically, the inspect system should be in the game to replace the ability for a player being able to tell what someone is wearing by looking at them, since that has been taken away.
As to dragon scales being leather armor - would that not be dragon hide?
I must admit Dragon Hide would be leather, but, some leather also has scale effects so I believe one could merge the two and come up with something spectacular (Yes please Intrepid!). I understand your request for an inspection, I also agree I do not want to ruin the experience for another player if I can help it. I would still bend for a toggle option - I would happily turn an inspection toggle on for the raid leader to check my 'credentials' and then toggle it off again. I am personally not a fan of inspections (I play games without inspections and I get by fine) but, I don't want to be a blanket bear and steal the porridge.
Comments
In BDO each class is distinct. Though similar costumes do exist for all classes they are individual to each class. Also, the karma turns you red but you can also go red karma by hunting protected animals (protected animals give more meat).
Much like most MMOs I have played there is no real penalty for killing low levels. In one MMO I played killing low levels gave you PvP experience and pvp levels if you did it long enough.
The switch is you can build a low level twink and kill top level players. I'm not sure if a low level player could do that in Ashes though. I also believe that classes will be distinct in Ashes but on a broader scale.
We've discussed before that my friend is a ganker in MMOs and also my partner when we twink against higher toons. The major issue remains that if PvP armour is locked to max level and subsequent pvp levels, twinks must be selective in targets. Pvp armour levels are also distinct so you don't usually inspect the target.
The good news remains that Ashes won't have pvp levels and pvp armour. It is too early for me to say whether a lower level twink is viable in Ashes. In theory if the augments are rather tame you could possibly attempt a level 50 at level 25 if the augments aren't substantial. I know very little about the augments though and I just fancied an open response.
Oh yeah, also you would sometimes 1v1 a max level if you were a dps/healer and they were a straight melee. You wouldn't really fight a ranged toon or anyone actually powerful with max raid gear or max pvp gear. I don't think you could delevel from xp debt in Ashes and if you can flag against higher level players they would hopefully not go corrupt. Of course, its just all theories because I learn something new every day. Though, if you're willing to do the time the xp debt could be worked off. The good news is if you never want the twink to level past a specific level, xp debt is a gift.
There are always people trolling about some ones bad build. Plus might not even be a bad build just not the cookei cutter meta build that some web site told them it was optimal.
If we are not going to have dps meters to make a less toxic server well then having hiddens profiles is in order I think.
Let me ask you a question when is it necessary to see a persons gear and set up. Well it would be pretty handy in PvP but that is a game decision could go either way. If you are trying to get into a guild or in a guild your guildies might want to see your set to help you not troll on you. Espeicailly a raiding guild.
Unfortunately this game is about builds and there such things as bad builds so so someone could be very help ful and actually make you aware of that. Talking about builds that actually kind of hurt the group.
So how about this if you are in a group then people can look at your gear.
As far as profiles and how much people can learn about you by looking up your profile is also a source of toxicity but very useful for determining if a toon is actually as good as they claim to be to determine if they are qualified to be in your raid group. So if you are trying to get into a guild ro pvp team then option to disclose proile to there.
But if you are let say not in a group like questing at auction house or grinding or or some activity in a node do you really wnat people looking up your set or profile telling you what build you should have or that you do not have something enchanted.
In BDO, you can basically always tell what class and weapon someone is using.
I Ashes, I could be a mage running at you in full plate armor, with a giant two handed sword, yet you see me as someone in leather armor holding a bow, because that is what cosmetic I am wearing.
This is the difference between the games that makes the idea of inspection in Ashes different to BDO.
Class, yes, but weapon and armor? Not if they are wearing a cosmetic. BDO's weapons are separated by class so the main meaningful distinction have subtler key playstyle differences that usually hint heavily at their build if you somehow found out. Same with their armor.
This issue is resolved by Intrepid having sound cosmetic implementation relative to this issue (no bow skins on swords) and having the ability to inspect people's cosmetics and transmogs. You don't have to go deeper than that. Make cosmetic and 'what slots are transmog' inspectable without consent and the general details of your build optional by request. A pretty fair and simple balance between the two.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Your entire point only holds true if individual skills can't be identified while they are being cast. If they can be identified, people can see what skills a player has selected to use. That is all that is needed for the "toxicity" you are talking about here, and being able to inspect gear makes no difference at all.
Now, if Ashes were aiming to be a "no toxicity" game, and said they were going to remove all animations and effects from all abilities in leu of a standard animation, then this point has some merit.
Anything short of that, and the above point is meaningless.
If you absolutely have to have a request system for it, at least give me a character setting to "Automatically Decline Inspection Requests", so I don't have to continually keep declining over and over. It'd be like the bloody Duel Requests in ESO before they brought in the Auto Decline. Ugh.
All I want to know of a player, and all I want them to know about me is: Name, Guild, Level. Let me make my own choice about them myself, rather than handing it all to me on a platter. You've given the impression that you're not wanting to 'dumb down' to the level of other games. Stick to that mentality!
In pvp situations you will have limited time to inspect someone. If you want inspection so you can better determine whether to gank someone then I am opposed to such a notion.
I have no issues with my guild and friends understanding my builds, helping to improve my builds and obviously being alongside my builds. I have an issue with unwanted inspections by players who have no business to understand the intricacies of another person's build.
On a side note, I believe transmogs should be limited to similar items. I'm not too concerned about light armour skins on heavy armour which Noanni advised me about but if I can put a sword on a bow the game will be a clusterfuck of a mess.
Three thumbs up for that idea.
You say this like it is your prerogative to withhold that information, but have given no reason as to why you have that prerogative.
If you and I are walking down the street, I can see if you are wearing high end clothing labels. You have no real right to stop me from gleaning that information from you
Then you have the practical matter of it all. If you are wearing g shoes that would be good for a long distance hike, I will be able to see that. If you are wearing clothing that leaves you with no place to keep items (waller, phone, knife), then I will also be able to see that.
In Ashes, we have no real way to see this basic information. The level of detail we have would be me being able to tell that you have some sort of denim based clothing on the lower half of your body - which could be jeans, a denim skirt, Daisy Dukes, or even full on double denim for all I know.
My character should be able to glean the same information by looking at your character as I can fain from looking at you. You do not and should not have the right to withhold that information.
Since we can not assume any information at all from looking at a character, inspect is the next logical place for that information to be made available.
If you are wearing a set of dragon sce armor that you have enchanted to +6, I shouldn't be able to see that +6 at all (barring an enchant or identification skill). However, I should know straight away that you are wearing dragon scale armor, and nothing you are able to do should be able to prevent me from knowing that.
I agree with being able to see basic details about gear, if it's tied to a life skill. A novice adventurer wouldn't know a low grade sword from a high end sword at a glance. But someone who has spent years around weapons by either using them or crafting them would be able to tell quite a bit from a passerby's appearance. If inspections stays at that depth, I'm fine with it, but as I said in a prior post, if my build can be read outright, it's too much.
I have not seen any game in which a build of another player can be examined in any way in game.
I'm sure they exist, but I've literally never seen it, and don't expect to ever see it in a decent game.
As far as the cosmetics/transmogs go, if I'm wearing a long overcoat, then you're not going to see what I'm wearing at all. The cosmetic/transmog is the overcoat. For example: the "Hot Fuzz" couldn't tell that Mr Treacher had a shotgun under his coat, cos his cosmetic/transmog covered it up.
A more Fantasy-based example: The cave troll in LOTR stabbed Frodo in the chest with an enormous spear, but it didn't kill him, cos the troll couldn't see he was wearing his Mithril armour underneath his shirt.
If it had been able to inspect/view the Mithril armour, it would have just thought "Sod it", and gone for someone else instead.
I get that people want hand-holding and spoon-feeding with info, but Ashes just doesn't seem like the hand-holdy spoon-feedy kind of game.
As to your trench coat example - you actually can tell if someone has an item that is somewhat smaller than a shotgun under their coat - again it is a movement thing. They move with less freedom, and you will be able to see the outline of the item in question as their clothing moves about. The bigger the item (the butt of a shotgun is a large item to try and conceal), the easier it is to spot.
If you were wearing a trench coat over top of plate armor, I'm fairly sure that would be noticed.
I have to assume you were not at all serious bringing an Edgar Wright movie in as a point. It's story telling, not an attempt at actual accuracy.
To you LotR example - mithril in Middle Earth was so rare that most thought it was an actual myth. If sold, the value of that one piece of armor was higher than the value of the entire Shire. If Intrepid wanted to put in an item with that kind of rarity (average of one per several million players) to enable people to fool inspection, I'd be fine with that.
So even in your fantasy setting, your example doesn't really work.
To your final point about spoon feeding information - that makes me think you didn't actually read what I said.
We should have the ability to see what people are actually using in combat against us. If you have dragon scale armor, I should know that. I don't need to know the enchantment you have put on it (ie, your "spoon fed" information), and I could even see an argument about not being able to see the specific allocation of stats the item has (though an equally strong argument exists where someone with a high enchanting skill should be able to see enchants, and someone with a high armor smithing skill should be able to see the stat allocation). However, there is no argument you can make that would make any actual sense for players to not be able to tell if you have dragon scale armor on.
Again, if an untrained eye can spot fake leather from real leather, if a trained eye can tell the difference between cotton and cotton blend, then someone that has their life potentially riding on it should be able to tell the difference between a dragon scale and a chunk of iron.
No we shouldn't have to. I understand you would like to, as that is the type of game mechanics you would enjoy more. I would much prefer if it wasn't possible to see automatically by just clicking inspection, or via an icon. We have built in cosmetics and transmogs in the game, essentially magically changing the appearance of items. Call it illusion or transmogrification, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the items now look a certain other way. It makes no sense to just ignore that fact. Bringing RL into this doesn't really apply IMO. It's magic. I also think gear inspection detracts from the gameplay.
So again, I want no inspection of any kind. If they absolutely must incorporate something, I would actually prefer it being skill and proximity based, where people close by could learn to see some basic gear info, like type, tier and rarity. Never stats. And also never character skills/specs. I could tolerate a toggle system, where it's possible for me to turn off being inspected completely, but there are some real downsides to that as well I think, where it could establish a norm that players need to let themselves be inspected before joining groups, which I believe to be bad for the community as a whole.
You should only ever use this as an argument along with jazz hands, honestly.
This is the argument you use to justify a thing you want that is otherwise unable to be justified.
Well, it is, yes, but I'm sure you're also aware that Ashes isn't based in Real Life, and just as in TES3: Morrowind, if you have a character wear a robe over your armour, you ain't seeing that armour.
Anyway, I'm not wasting 70 pages arguing about this with you, cos I learn from my past. I don't like the inspection idea, and I don't care if you don't like that I don't like it.
Lol, no, read what I wrote. The reason I don't want it is that it's bad gameplay design and bad for the community. That's the justification. The magic part is an explanation for the lore side of things, in response to bringing up RL skills into a magic skills debate.
Many would consider that kind of information to be the very foundation of player agency - if decisions we make are to have an impact, we should have some basic information to inform that decision.
Based on what you are saying here though, I assume you are perfectly fine with not knowing which race or class it is you are picking. You surely must be fine with not knowing what item you are about to create, the effects of a spell you can put points in to or what the stats are of an item you find. This is all just different pieces of information that are given to the player in order to allow us to make good decisions - and information on a potential threat or target is - in a game like Ashes - the most important piece of information we could have.
I mean, why are you arguing that this piece of information is less important for players to have than any other piece of information?
I care if you have a good reason for your position.
It seems not.
In sieges, the devs will normalise the equipment so you will be able to tell at a glance how someone is kitted out. We have the armour icon buff which will also show you what you are facing. Once again, we have a situation where people want the carrot and the stick.
People will still compliment your gear even if they can't inspect the gear. It's up to the individual player if they want to disclose what the gear is or how to get the gear. The inspections should not show stats and enchantments if it is implemented. I also believe the game will be better off sticking to original idea of no inspections.
Furthermore, crafted items will have signature traits and a chosen look based on what the crafter has chosen. Two pieces of armour will probably not look the same even if two crafters make the same item. It would be hilarious if a snooper detects 'Dragon Scale Boots' loves the look and finds someone to craft the item only to receive the item and it looks completely different because the crafter decided to switch up the routine. Even the exact same crafter might have to change a design in order to facilitate the design because some resources or style components could be hard to come by.
In terms of battling for grind spots in the open world you will be killed much faster if you inspect someone. If the fights last 30 or 60 seconds and you spend 10 seconds inspecting someone, then you've gimped yourself and your information would not be able to be put to use. You're better off learning signature traits of skills, weapon abilities and the armour icons so you can glean the parameters in 1 or 2 seconds. It will be a big task because of all the augments but in other MMOs I have learnt about all the classes in order to be more effective in PvP.
Ok now you're just being super silly with those examples.
Intrepid already limits the info you get from other players by not showing the exact amount on the health bar for example. Something that is pretty important to your survival too. They've talked about an icon next to the nameplate showing some info on the type of armor the other player is wearing. I already said in a previous post I would be ok with that as long as it doesn't reveal too much. An icon showing the weapon type is ok as well. So it's perfectly in line with what Intrepid has previously stated they are going for to not want inspection.
As a player you just need to pay attention to what the other player is doing and you'll know archetype and maybe even class if you're good. If you're being attacked you have no time to inspect anyway. It's fight, flight or stand there and let them kill you so they gain corruption. You can gauge their gear by how hard they hit or are being hit. If you are the attacker you already have the advantage. No need to compound that advantage by letting you inspect the target first.
You can not see players exact health in order to make it harder to almost kill a character, leaving them to die of other causes.
What is the gameplay reason for not being able to inspect?
The reason is because you can't walk up to someone in real life and 'inspect' their underwear. In game terms, my dragon scale outfit would be the underwear and the cosmetic skin will be the outside appearance. You are not prevented from seeing the outside appearance - or designer items as you put it, but, if you want to delve deeper and strip someone to see their underwear you'd be visited by more than Bounty Hunters lol.
On the one hand I find that being able to inspect another player's equipment is "normal" but on the other hand and depending on how the PvP is going to be in the game, it may be better to do so with player's permission.
If there is the possibility of PK in the game, it would be enough to inspect the player in town and wait for him at the exit. Information should be hidden and shared only with our friends or our group.
When I say information, I mean the equipment but also the level, HP, etc ...
Players who want PK will think twice before attacking a player and will have to put some ploy into place to be sure to win.
I'm not keen on the way you start out with a reality based argument, and then end with what is basically "I can put a coat over my full plate armor so you can't see it", which is about as far from reality as it is possible to get.
If you are wearing something over your armor (ESPECIALLY plate armor), then you should have your movement restricted. Cloth over plate armor would very easily get in gaps between plates - which is why it is not something that ever happened.
So, do you want to argue this from a reality perspective, or not?
One could choose a Dwarf and add bulk to the bulk already, or choose an Orc and add bulk to the bulk. How would one know whether the bulk is because of a Dwarf or Orc body shape or because leather armour is beneath the cloth armour without an inspection tool? I'm still an advocate for no inspections but I do enjoy the whole concept and the banter.
Indeed.
But the decision to make it so you can wear any cosmetic regardless of what you are using, and the lack of an option for players to be able to toggle that off so they can see your actual gear - that is all just a business decision. You can't ask people to pay money for something that is only about looks, and then give others the option to turn off being able to see it.
An inspect system should replace the ability to do this. It is literally adding back to the game something that was taken out as a purely business decision.
Basically, the inspect system should be in the game to replace the ability for a player being able to tell what someone is wearing by looking at them, since that has been taken away.
As to dragon scales being leather armor - would that not be dragon hide?