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[Feedback Request] Cleric & Weapon Updates Shown in November Livestream

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  • S8credS8cred Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    LOVED!!! both the day/night and the Cleric progress. Please, please, please make sure the roles are defined. I had a hard time understanding which character actually had "threat" or "aggro". I get that healing spells cause threat but generally, a tank will carry a sword and shield, while also having the armor to back up taking big hits. It seemed the Cleric role was performing both the "weapon role", "armor role" and the "threat role" while the acclaimed DPS was simply using a 2H weapon to smash. I understand there will be 8 classes which allow for 64 possible sub-class options. I am really hoping these are actually defined by armor, weapons and abilities. It is frustrating having them so free and open to choice which allows a cloth-wearing mage to tank with a staff or wand because of some workaround. Other than that the Cleric class looks exciting. The active targeting system looks much better.
    I notice that the world is getting a ton of attention, which is VERY important. And time is a factor in all of this. Right now if this were launched then it would look rushed. If the character combat systems and class systems get the attention to detail that the world is getting and that the character creation page is getting then it seems things will really be smooth. The attention to detail is what makes MMORPGS successful. A lot of users have pointed out the zombie modeling, and how it is glitching or repetitive so there is no need to rehearse. An important feeling to a lot of players is that the characters mold well with the world. When they walk, and when they climb, the modeling needs to be such that the movements belong and look natural. The models might need a few more frames or adjustments to let them feel real and not out of place or like a gimmick. Again that is possibly a time concern and can still be polished. Everyone is super excited to play this game and the community obviously shows that. We support all you are doing. Keep up the good work!
  • SoggyBandaidSoggyBandaid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    I feel like it a really cool way to encourage teamwork and dynamic builds. I personally would enjoy if each archetype was better/worse at stacking certain conditions, but players had the option to augment this depending on their choice of the 64 classes. For example the fighter in the video provided stuns, but by selecting fighter/rogue could provide a bleed effect. I also think giving players the option to stack conditions without a party would be a good way to support more solo oriented or self sufficient players. I think this would be an overall benefit because small guilds and casuals are less limited by the player with the least time, and hardcore players are not penalized when pick up parties do not set up or execute meta mechanics.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    This question seems a bit vague since we don't have "the meta." However, my answer is likely, "no". I think there should be enough variation among builds that most parties can accomplish most content in the game (given gear, level, etc.). If content can only be completed by (or is significantly easier for) a certain group composition that is basically the same as saying you cannot play unless you group a certain way. It's not really fun to be told how to play in a sandbox.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    I think the active blocking shown is a cool concept, although I did have some concerns with how it was presented. First, I did not think the visual and auditory effects were substantial enough to convey the activity. Second, there seems to be little reason not to block as the tank role, which is pretty boring since your not doing much else. Third, there seems to be little risk to blocking since you can hold the active effect. Personally, I would make the activation of active block more dramatic and sweeping with a grunt or some other sound effect that indicates bracing for impact, and I would limit the duration to be similar to a dodge roll. Overall, this could be a fun mechanic, but I think it is dangerously close to undermining the tank archetype.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    Looks good overall. I would appreciate some more visual diversity among the hotbar icons and potentially some more indicators over teammates as someone typically playing support. Overall, good stuff.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    I noticed a couple people mention this, and I just needed to hop on the bandwagon. The golden hammer would look better with the cleric archetype than the fighter. As someone who will probably main cleric, I am excited to see the rest of the kit in Alpha 2. The work so far has been amazing!
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2022
    a)How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    • Looked good, happy to see the development leading to groups needing to work together.

    b) Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    • Yes, but not to the extent solo plan is not viable.
    • Context-driven ie amplify for harder content.

    c) What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    Blocking
    • Blocking looked ok.
    Buff / Debuff
    • Not a fan of the obvious circle around feet to indicate a buff/debuff.. that is quite immersion breaking.
    • Much prefer a halo/glow on character.
    Physical Blocking
    • If dealing with phyiscal blocking, few games come close to getting as well done as "exanima "

    d) Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    Hot bar
    • locations - ok
    • size - ok
    • style - "fantasy like".. prefer more neutral / contemporary or option for contemporary.
    Mini-map
    • not a fan of them if there was not one in game I would be pleased.
    • no need to have place name, should be able to remember or know by opening main map
    Compass
    • Odd to get a sense of NSEW from the right hand side
    • Prefer how it was designed some time back, centered but subtle top of screen
    Targetting
    • Ok
    e) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    • Not particulary
    • Would like to see a demo of each skill, explained one by one. (same for all classes)
  • Please, change that hammer smash ground hitting animation where something is coming out of ground and makes it seem quaked. I think it will be better to just leave black cracks on ground as you did with sword basic attack animation when it leaves off sword traces on the ground.
  • Also, holy crap I love the look of chains when a monster is stunned. It looks really creepy but really good.
  • GalaturcGalaturc Member
    edited December 2022
    As everyone will respond to the most common topics from the clip, I'll try to highlight some other concerns I observed during the demo as it pertains to the "mobs" Steven's party pulled.

    TLDR:

    1- Vary the mobs' size and color/hue without overwhelming the game engine - exact clones of the same mobs are not immersive and feel outdated.

    2- Make the mobs more intelligent by creating dynamic mob engagement as a reaction to players' actions, especially punishing and overwhelming if the solo player or party is pulling too many all at once.

    2a- Create a variety of mob behavior even within the same mob types where the mobs feel overwhelmed and run away, or "howl" or use a "horn" to call for aid from the nearby mobs to react to the player or party who is careless with pulling.

    2b- Alternatively, temporarily spawn an elite variation of the mob type after an alertness mechanism (like howling or horn call) to truly create an overwhelming challenge for the solo player, party, or parties in the POI. This is not the same as a triggered boss event which is intentional but rather a triggered event that is almost undesired that punishes a targeted player or party who committed the careless engagement.

    2c- These newly spawned elite mobs will target, chase, and hunt the careless player/party and despawn once their target is eliminated or leave the POI premises. This way, other cautious players/parties in the POI are not punished and may continue their adventure.

    3- Campfire as a brief 30s resting mechanic that is accumulative with a tavern/inn rested bonus. This could be as minor as 1% mana regeneration which would still be appreciated by both min-maxers and roleplayers alike.

    3a- Possibly engage bard and ranger skills for adding further bonuses to this buff while a campfire rest is triggered.

    Longer version to read further:

    My first concern with the demo from the last update was that all mobs looked exactly the same. Can we do something about making the same type of mobs look a little different from each other? For instance, can we have varying sizes of wolves with somewhat different shades of dark fur when a pack attacks? Can we have some skeletons with leg armor, and some with helmets? This kind of lack of diversity is traditional to all RPGs, I get it... but, can Intrepid innovate their engine to vary the sizes and looks of some mobs of the same type to allow us more immersion, please?

    My biggest concern was with respect to the mobs' group organization... Unfortunately, there was no sense of mob intelligence and no sense of challenge, caution, or urgency even when the party was careless and a little too casual. Don't get me wrong, this was as typical as a mob encounter goes in any other MMORPG, but I expect much more innovation from this game on both its PvP AND PvE aspects. Although I enjoyed the semi-creative ways the mobs appeared, and attacked in pseudo-group formations, I wish there were more creative ways they offered challenges by penalizing the mistakes Steven and the party did while they were pulling these mobs. What we have seen was the cliché way of how mobs react to approaching parties in other MMORPGs. Yes, sure, the mobs could be way more challenging by damaging harder in this demo, but I think there are more creative, impressive, and innovative ways to challenge the players by making mobs "seem" more clever.

    If a party in a POI or dungeon is moving carelessly, and not pulling cautiously, perhaps, the remaining mobs who are alert now could organize to attack in bigger numbers with more ferocity. Imagine a scenario where Steven dived deeper into the graveyard and carelessly pulled a few more mobs - as he did in this demo - after his party killed 2-3 packs of 3 wolves - I think he was hilarious, and fun to watch. It thrills me to imagine a shift in the mob attacking mechanics as a reaction to this party's rushed approach: once a party pulls too many (determined by a threshold mechanic), one of the remaining wolves gives a long howl and runs away from the party. The alert wolves in the area (or newly spawned "alpha wolf and his pack") now organize in three or four packs of three wolves and surround the party on all sides before fully engaging all at once like how a true pack would attack - this must almost feel like a punishment for the party as the challenge level to kill 9-10 wolves from every direction is exponentially harder than killing a pack of 3 wolves.

    Similarly, skeleton mobs could call for help from other mobs around by alerting their surrounding via an eerie horn that one of the scout skeletons uses and announce the intruders in their graveyard if the party has pulled too many all at once. Now, that's an appropriate moment for Steven to announce his concerns to the viewers - "oh boy, now we are in trouble, alright, let's take this more seriously, this is gonna be tough!!!" - it would really get our attention more - as the viewer - if the party struggled in their adventure after this point (and perhaps we could watch a party member or two die!) rather than watching them "carelessly" stroll around the POI while mobs are slowly and unintelligently chasing Steven et al. around. I mean, if the goal is to showcase Intrepid innovation and hype the viewer... I can't imagine a bigger "wow" factor than such a demo...

    Some ambitious parties will truly be looking for that type of challenge from mobs, and an innovative MMORPG could provide such group mechanics in many other creative ways that give us a sense of intelligence even if the mobs are mindless skeletons/zombies or primitive wolves. Now, what if the same party approaches a goblin or giant village and acts as carelessly as Steven et al. did? How would a more intelligent set of mobs organize (as a village) if the party pulled too many all at once? What if a solo player aims to farm in a POI and pull too many? Can we reconsider the pulling mechanics and add "grander" risks and rewards to how players deal with alert and angry mobs especially if they are intelligent, wild, and aggressive types? I am not arguing that every mob should behave the same way either... Providing a spectrum of mob behavior varying from"aggressive and bloodthirsty" to "cowering and running away" would really give an identity and character to various mob types. I believe this would impact the whole concept of "XP farming" by really overwhelming individuals or parties who intend to pull many and kill them all at once - whether mobs react aggressively and pile up in much bigger numbers than one player can ever handle, or they are now running away from that one player or party who aims to farm all of them in a short period of time. Both behaviors would create the necessary challenge if a player or party is not engaging with mobs cautiously. For once, the players would find mobs to be more unique and intelligent and care about how they pull. This is remaining true to the principles of AoC with risk and reward where players are concerned about the outcomes of their actions and engage with mobs more cautiously.

    Finally, I would like to share my opinions on what Steven proposed during the clip: true to the DnD RPG games, I would like to see a camping/resting system that offers temporary bonuses to the party if they set a "campfire". This would be accumulative with that of a tavern/inn bonus that is nearby which the party rested prior to traveling to the current POI. When camping outside a dungeon or a POI, one of the party members would need to set a "campfire" with a small radius for the party members to rest together. If there's a bard in the party, their skill may add additional buffs to the brief rest. The "campfire" item carried that needs to be in one's backpack (or the skill associated with it) could have a cooldown applied to the whole party - and the whole rest would take about half a minute to a minute to receive the buff. I think this would take the short mana/hp regeneration break that we are all familiar with to the next level - even if these additional buffs are as minor as a 1% mana and hp regeneration for the next 5-10 minutes. Even if small, I can imagine such a camping mechanic appreciated by both min-maxers out there and role players alike.
  • DeePuffeeDeePuffee Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think Asmongold said it best. It would feel so rewarding if there was a stagger/ragdoll effect on enemies. some weapons' stagger more then others would make you feel impowered for sure. Also having a Perry system as stated in the update would be nice if you used a sword.
  • IskiabIskiab Member
    edited December 2022
    Looked good, I like how the cleric animations looked like they were made considering how it feels to play a cleric - not dumb animations that wave your arms around or raise your hand to help noobs identify the healer in PvP.

    Some suggestions or comments:
    - I dislike ground effects, maybe consider changing the healing ground effect to a healing aura that follows the cleric/target? Ground effects are easy to misplace, clunky to activate, and too easily can’t be put down because you clicked on a rock instead of a valid ground space.
    - I like the idea that the heal can be a nuke too, that’s great
    - Synergies between classes with effects was neat, I just worry about how it will scale when there are 20+ players
  • - What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    Love the Active Block!
    Would love to see some sort of 'impact' animation, where the shield 'bumps' backwards when an impact is taken. I think this would do wonders for making it feel like you're really taking a hit!

    Side note*: Maybe if the hit is hard enough (or the opponent is big enough), you actually slide back? Probably very difficult to pull off on a technical level, but would be incredible :open_mouth:

    - Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    -- Targeting!
    Targeting is hard to get right. In recent memory the best targeting system I've played as a healer has been that of TERA (R.I.P.). Where you essentially just need to pass your reticule over each 'target' you want to heal, and it locks that in as a recipient for a heal ability. To reset the targets is just a right-click.
    User-Actions are:
    1) Press heal-ability hotkey
    2) Pass reticule over heal targets (1 or many)
    3) Once all targets have been selected (and locked-in), press left-click to execute ability.

    Not sure if anyone will read this! But if they do, love the game progress so far! Godspeed!

    -Cableman687
  • Hello, the progress of your work looks great. Unfortunately, I can't judge anything from watching and imagining how it feels. Sometimes playing top mechanics gets boring. Sometimes mindlessly simple games are extremely fun. In my experience, a bit of chaos can help keep the game exciting. Maybe there is a chance that synergies will overshoot the mark? For example that an opponent absorbs the energy and becomes stronger? That a group of opponents fused into one opponent? That an enemy explodes and does damage to everyone nearby? Elements that are rare, that nobody can control. I think that brings additional tension. Thank you and have a great time.
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Hello glorious community,

    To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
      How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?


    So far i like it, however i hope its not going to be a bilinear experiance only, eg stagger into stun. Preferably i would love to see soft initial status like stagger and then depending on the second ability a more powerfull one. So if i use ablity a the stagger goes into a stun, and if i use ability b the stagger goes into a knockback.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?


    No, i think there should be ample build options and builds to a commodate for and specialize with different playstyles. I don't want to see class x in the distance and have more then a 30% chance of already knowning the archtype and weapon combo's and sometimes even the abilities they will have.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    What are your thoughts egarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?


    To be honest i couldn't really see the difference at first glance. I had to rewind and slow down a few times before i could properly tell. A more nuanced sound effect would have greatly benefitted. Personally i'm heavily favored for a stamina bar, for active blocking dodging parrying and sprinting. With different armor types positively or negatively effecting aspects on that. Stamina should also be an expedite resource, where melee fighters and tanks have an abundance of, and ranged less. To allow a more balanced way of closing without perpetual kiting setting in.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.


    The basics are there, The rest will depend on customization options. In essence i could play the game with these as default.

    Vaknar wrote: »
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?


    The skinwalker and zombies felt remeniscant of rubberbanding, with more animation states to let them turn and reaquire targets more naturally that could be fixed. The flailing of the zombies while running was comedic but unnatural.
    ![/quote]

  • I am concerned about the lack of collision in melee fight. I see a melee character hitting skeletons with sword and the sword goes through the skeletons with zero collision effect, as if hitting air. I can understand that you can’t achieve a realistic physical collisions with melee weapons (would love it though) but at least make the skeletons take some visible impact fro the hit.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    peksi wrote: »
    I am concerned about the lack of collision in melee fight. I see a melee character hitting skeletons with sword and the sword goes through the skeletons with zero collision effect, as if hitting air. I can understand that you can’t achieve a realistic physical collisions with melee weapons (would love it though) but at least make the skeletons take some visible impact fro the hit.

    Based on this, what would you like the animations to look like when 3 different characters hit the skeleton 'at the same time'.

    Does it 'stay staggered', does it 're-stagger', does it 'animate a more complex stagger', or does it 'ignore everything after the first hit until the end of recovery animation?

    And if it is 'supposed to attack' in the timeframe for the recovery animation, should it 'skip some of the visuals of the startup frames' for the attack, or 'cut the recovery frames short so that it can have a full attack animation'?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Hello glorious community,

    We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Cleric & Weapon Updates shown during the November 2022 Development Update Livestream.

    To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
    • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    • Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    • What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    • Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Cleric archetype and the weapons shown during the November Development Update

    We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, December 16 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

    Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!

    Cleric was a little underwhelming, probably due to the spell graphics/animations and not the greatest melee. The game graphics are capable of greatness. Active blocking seems bland. :(

    Don't mind synergies.
  • Synergy: loved it, but don’t overdo it. I’ve played so many mmo’s that I can’t remember each specific one, but there was one that did this(vanguard? Aion? ) where effects stacked in order by certain classes to build up to big effects. Great idea, poorly thought through. It was super effective when it worked, but was tough to implement and took lots of coordination. Created chaos and upset in groups more than fun, and when there was any lag it was a time waster… and frustrating because you knew there was a mechanic, but you couldn’t use it because lag. I would say 2-3 synergies normally max, maybe some longer linked ones at higher level up to 4-5 and that’s it. One thing that could have been better was the visual indication that they successfully synergized and proc’d the effect. In the livestream example, when the stun proc’d, a red flash and a special soundindicates to everyone that stun dropped…

    Active blocking: yes should have. Needs to be directional, managed and not 100% effective against everything (actively blocking a swarm of bees for example). Stamina based works for me, with some classes providing specific stamina “healing” vs health healing. Stamina reduction directly proportional to incoming damage.
    Take a field trip and have whoever is working on blocking go do a real armored combat event. There are some groups around San Diego. Strap on some armor and have someone beat on you holding a shield. It’s super fun and you’ll quickly get an idea on how hard it is to actually block with a shield. It’s pretty safe ;)

    Biggest concern: Leroy Sharif the rogue cleric providing role models to future ashes clerics. Steven, we love you man, but Jesus stay behind the tank. People are watching.
  • GutzgoreGutzgore Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I know this is feedback for Cleric but to answer the active block question:

    -I actually do like active blocking. I play a bit of New World tanking, and they seem to have done this well for what it is in PVE. I would like to see active blocking taken to a better place than they did of course, but something along these lines. I do like managing stamina and would like to see AoC take this and make it better and more interesting to manage. Its a bit plain in NW.

    That said...
    -The blocking seemed really off to me. I didn't get the feel that you just tanked a big hit. The sound wasn't right the weight was just not there and the animations were wrong. I want to feel like my shield just took a beating. When you pull the shield out, it should be an intentional move that has meaning. The speed at which the NPC attacks could be many attacks that bursty/fast and I have to block for 3-4 seconds or maybe its that one big hit coming in and only a 1 second block. The amount of blocking obviously should depend on the mob/encounter your in. Either way it should make a sound like you just whipped this big ol thing out in front of you. There needs to be some kind of player flinch or jerk, even if its just slight, so that you felt it when you block with it. Maybe two flinch types, small jerky ones for lighter attacks and a big almost knocking back animation for big attacks. Animations need to make you look like you just got hit and blocked it and sell that tanky feeling to me. I tank in MMO's when I play them and I have concerns here, but I know we haven't seen the actual tanking class yet. I'll provide that specific feedback when that gets shown in more detail. This is just to start.
  • AruganArugan Member, Alpha One
    This is just a future balancing comment. Please make sure healers cant out heal DPS. Especially in some games, a healer can out heal 2 DPS. Even with an equal gear score.

    Maybe introduce abilities that reduce healing such as a poison etc.

    Other than that. Fantastic showcase. The moves animation looked beautiful. Loved to spell combinations to create a CC.

    Keep up the good work!!!!
  • All i can say i dont really like puddle healing
    It makes groups forced to stand in one spot to maximize healing
    Affiliate Code:
    0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
  • Question: Are the mace/shield and staff the only weapons able to be used by the cleric, and is it essentially a melee character other than for heals, or is that just what they featured in the video? I couldn’t find my answer online.

    Comment: I like playing caster clerics, so I’m hoping the answer to my previous question is no. If it can use casting weapons, that would be cool. I’m confused as far as how gear works.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Moraxis wrote: »
    Question: Are the mace/shield and staff the only weapons able to be used by the cleric, and is it essentially a melee character other than for heals, or is that just what they featured in the video? I couldn’t find my answer online.

    Comment: I like playing caster clerics, so I’m hoping the answer to my previous question is no. If it can use casting weapons, that would be cool. I’m confused as far as how gear works.

    All Archetypes can use all Weapons.

    We don't have information yet on if they will be effective with all of them, but 'Magical Staff' is very likely to be available for Caster Clerics such as yourself.

    (if not, don't worry, lots of feedback similar to yours is sure to happen)
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    [*] How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    They didn't seem necessary due to the difficulty level of the content being shown. I'd love to see a single difficult scenario that's made possible due to these conditions, though.
    [*] Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    Not sure what this means. I know what a meta is, but I feel the question digs needlessly deep. Ultimately, each class should have a flavour to them that others do not. A fantastic example of this is in Deep Rock Galactic, a co-op shooter....weirdly enough. These 4 things are: flare, drills, platforms, and shield/zipline. 90% of my DRG games have 1 of each character, and it's almost never forced.

    Unless I'm actually missing the true meaning behind this question, I think composition should be something players consider, but are not mandatory. Like in WoW, having bloodlust early on meant shamans were 100% the meta, and that's too far. Nowadays you still want it, but you have a few options. Then you have things like Ring of peace to keep mobs off the tank, or soothe to make an enraged monster not do 50% more damage.

    Little things like that are all you need to think of when it comes to composition and meta. Well not all...but crucial factors. I liked the chain effect, but it needs to be stronger and shown in content that requires it. At 29:03 in the video, a zombie just charges through. If you NEEDED those chains on a mob and they charged through, it's essentially worthless utility. If the intention is to only root monsters on the cast, then the ground effect should disappear.

    Hope I'm not being overly petty here.
    [*] What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    I genuinely could not find this in the video. Could someone timestamp it for me? Feels like I'm missing something obvious...

    [*] Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    I hope the position is customizable (I'm out of date on a few things.)
    1. HP bars are off in Narnia (too far away)
    2. HP bars are too thin and long. WoW lets you use raid frames and customize the size, which I feel is incredibly useful for healers.
    3. The cooldown wheel is too hard to see, partly due to the small value shift from the background image, but also due to the desaturated icons. An option to change icon saturation might be nice.
    4. Mini-map is really nice; I love the zoom distance that retains a good amount of visual clarity.
    5. Again, I hope target health is movable.
    [*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    1. At 37:19 he is able to target his ability even though it's on CD. I'd recommend not letting players target the area if it's on CD.
    2. Same area, I was staring at the bars and could not tell when he actually pressed the button. More feedback on which button is being pressed would be great.
    3. Similar to UI customization, the plague debuff he gets right after should be far more apparent. In FF14 you are able to put debuffs anywhere and make the really big. The option is always good...as it stands it's kinda out of the way, and would be a pain in a difficult fight.
    4. I'd like to see an option to toggle health bars directly over the mobs.
    Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Cleric archetype and the weapons shown during the November Development Update
    A bit concerned at the abundance of auto-attacking mobs. I know difficulty and detailed combat is something that comes later in production, so won't let it get to me too much...but sooner the better, I guess.

    Hope there aren't any crazy typos, cause I haven't proofread this. :D
  • KilionKilion Member
    edited December 2022
    Hi there, maybe a little bit late to the party but nevertheless, I have a few things on my mind regarding the blocking mechanics.

    1. Stamina for everyone
    2. Magicians block with mana instead of stamina
    3. Exhaust stack system
    4. On tanks and "bloodlust"

    1 - Stamina for everyone
    It seems to me that creating a resource only for active blocking wouldn't be a very fun way to make it part of a characters gameplay, unless every character needs stamina anyways e.g. to sprint, climb and jump (especially in combat). This would mean that blocking would drain the same resources as non-skill related mobility creating a broader awareness for positioning and prudent stamina management.

    2 - Magicians block with mana instead of stamina
    Another possible option I would see as viable would be for magical classes to impact their mana. A mage has not the physique of a tank or fighter, so he might find his ability to actually block damage reduced if they don't reinforce is with mana. This could be a simple toggle skill, when activated it increases the efficiency of the shield (damage blocked; resistance to knockbacks [if that's a thing]) but drains a portion of the mana from the defending mage. That would give magical classes a flexible option to decide how much damage a shield has to block. It would also imply that stats like Strength, Constitution and maybe Dexterity might be determining the efficiency of a shield - giving physical classes an advantage regarding shield use.

    3 - Exhaust Stack System
    And lastly I could imagine an "exhaust stacks" system. Everytime, a character is hit, the blocked amount will transform into a exhaust stacks. The amount of stacks gained will be calculated by the amount of incoming damage reduced by a Power, Constitution and Dexterity modifying factor. Exhaust will go down when not receiving damage while blocking, it will go down faster when not blocking at all and it will still decrease when taking damage while not blocking. Exhaust can also be reduced by inspiration skills of Bards or refreshing abilities of Clerics. A passive skill should allow exhaust to build up slower and reduce faster. It would be fun to have abilities that increase exhaust on enemies.

    Let's just say Exhaust goes up to a maximum of 100.
    • - Once the exhaust builds up to 30, it will increase the cooldown of standard attacks (by maybe 5-10%) and slightly reduce movement speed (10%) for the next 1 second or so. If one ends an active block when reaching 30 the debuff should be over by the time exhaust goes down to 0 again
    • - When it reaches 50 it will increase the cooldown of all skills and reduce movement speed a bit more until exhaust has reduced to 30 at which point it will take 1 more second for the debuff to disappear.
    • - When exhaust reaches 70 movement speed is greatly reduced, skill cooldowns will reduce and skills require more of the resources that determine your class. Climbing, sprinting and jumping could be disabled from this stage onwards.
    • - When peaking at 100 incoming damage will be increased and trying to block incoming damage causes a "knock out" (stun + falling to the ground). In this state exhaust drastically reduces, by the time (after maybe 1,5s) the character gets up, the exhaust has reduced to 50 or even 30.

    Sidenote
    Bards could be masters at managing exhaust, by distributing it amongst party member, reducing the current exhaust on allies, increasing it on foes and modifying the build up and reduction of exhaust stacks.

    4 - Tanks and bloodlust
    Regarding tanks in particular, since it would be boring to just hide behind a shield a "bloodlust mechanic" could be their unique twist and replace the exhaust system. When receiving or blocking damage, they build up bloodlust, the increase in bloodlust should be greater for blocking damage with a shield - and bloodlust decreases if there is no damage incoming. Bloodlust reduces the efficiency of defensive abilities (no mobility impact) but increases offensive abilities (e.g. stronger bleed effects, higher CC duration, longer reach for some skills or a dmg burst). This would make tanks more fun to play as the more they successfully switch between offense and defense while maintaining aggro, the more powerful they are.
    In PvP this might be a very fun mechanic because if you want to chew away at a tank you have to hit him... but if you do they might hit back hard and if you leave them alone they just steadily mow through your ranks.

    (It might be worthwhile to discuss if this system would cause too much tunnel vision on the primary targets though; even though tanks tend to be the one making the decision how many target will be in the fight anyways).
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Azherae wrote: »
    peksi wrote: »
    I am concerned about the lack of collision in melee fight. I see a melee character hitting skeletons with sword and the sword goes through the skeletons with zero collision effect, as if hitting air. I can understand that you can’t achieve a realistic physical collisions with melee weapons (would love it though) but at least make the skeletons take some visible impact fro the hit.

    Based on this, what would you like the animations to look like when 3 different characters hit the skeleton 'at the same time'.

    Does it 'stay staggered', does it 're-stagger', does it 'animate a more complex stagger', or does it 'ignore everything after the first hit until the end of recovery animation?

    And if it is 'supposed to attack' in the timeframe for the recovery animation, should it 'skip some of the visuals of the startup frames' for the attack, or 'cut the recovery frames short so that it can have a full attack animation'?

    I too had a desire for greater hit response / feedback from enemies, as it makes attacks feel more impactful.

    To answer your question Azherae, I have seen in a game, I believe it was a skyrim mod (that I can't find for the life of me) a system in which when the enemies were hit they would peform a mild twitch.

    It wasnt a stagger as such, it had no interupt mechanic associated, nore was it its own animation. It was a twitch, a slight distortion of the current animations, which didnt interrupt enemies, but gave a feeling of hit feedback and impact. It did a huge amount to make combat feel less floaty. Your weapons felt like they werent passing through air because your enemy had visual feed back of being hit, even though the enemies werent actually stopped from attacking.
    Like an enemy could even complete a lunge attack animation, be hit, and display a twitch during that animation.

    The size of the enemy also effected I believe how subtle or major the twitch would be.


    With humonoids I believe it applied mostly to the upper body. Which may be possible to animate with the split body system. Head /shoulders / chest, a slight recoil that resets to the current animation.

    In the case of multiple hits on the same target in close succession it may be possible to simply play mutiple of these non CC twiches as it ultimately smoothes back to the Mobs regular animations. However you could also put a small cooldown.

    I think this form of non CC hit feed back is really important for combat feel, it makes a lot of other animation work stick its landing, if I have these cool heavy looking auto attack animations or spell effects, eg. the fighters hammer spell and the enemies show no reaction to them when they hit, then they dont feel grounded and neither does the combat.
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    I think its 100% necessary to have such synergies and status effects in a MMORPG, multiplayer its very important. The only thing I prefer not to see is something overwhelming like 5 synergy in a row or something like that.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    I don`t like meta into the games I want to see more compositions not just one because its the strongest but the balance would be very diff to achieve.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    I personally don`t like active blocking. Its way better if its a chance and its doing it on its own.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    To me look like they are outdated for a new game like Ashes. Visually I think they should look better they look like a game 10 years ago too simple I think they should give us the vibe Ashes of Creation when we see them you should immediately recognize them.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    I`m excited for the Cleric although I don`t play much as such. I like the spells I think there should be a in battle revive. They can also provide with some kind of shields and buffs to the whole party.

  • Yes to active block please

    Yes to stamina pool.

    Yes to break free

    Skill and knowledge > stat stacking and gear score (respectively)

    basic weapon attacks should cost no resources and scale of highest resource pool

    How you decide to allocate which resources to what "abilities/actions" That! is a tricky one.... THIS IS what will make your combat epic or cookie cutter... I vote EPIC combat that requires ability knowledge, situational awareness, proactive and reactive playstyles in order to best your enemy. On top of min maxing gear and ability stats... Things like rolling combo synergy chains that buff your crew...... That perfect dodge roll before and ulti lands, or that epic silence casted on the enemy healers huge cast aoe heal. This is what MMO pvpers want !!!

    I personally liked the way ESO did it (originally) "the game is fucked now.... But anyway.
    In Eso Both stam and mag builds would have to use their "non-Main" resources wisely in order to have a sustainable build. As long as skills from a particular class kit don't get locked behind a resource management wall.

    example: Your cleric specked in Mag but Block and roll cost stam. Now you are extremely restricted to how much you can block or dodge... As a mag user. Now all you have are bubbles and heals... but you cant bubble a one shot raid mech and your slow as fuck, with no sprint either. So now you get one shotted because you fat fingered your dodge roll button to early and now the 10 man you were in is down to one healer at the end of a fight your crew was big dicking to beat the rage timer...... Your crew wipes FML Now you are that guy....... that's just shit to me.

    Maybe have ....

    Stamina- (endurance) Make your toons hit the gym...... - movement, (Dodge roll/sprint) blocking, break free... Long jump?? underwater breath? carrying strength. All kinds of different things can be attached to the stamina pool (Managing this resource is your damage mitigation via maneuverability and knowledge of a fight and skill) Knowing when to move, knowing what you can and can't block. Less base resistance stat play and more active resistance play. This opens up all kinds of combat mechanics... pve and pvp

    Energy pool(melee) /mana pool (magic) - resource used to cast particular class kit abilities... "chi pool"... when you combine a mag class kit with an energy class. Obviously call the recourse pool whatever you want but you get the point.

    Something like this makes more sense to me.

    We Don't even know if you will be putting in "break free" action into combat. YES please... this adds another skill layer to the gameplay.... Stun all you want as long as I manage my stamina so I can break free. I never get caught in a FML I am locked down and dead now situation.

    Once you Guys decide on a "system" This community Will help you un fuck it, so it works in the A2 and Beta. But until the team decides how they want to implement the resource / combat system. We are in a cart before the horse situation.

    been waiting patiently to get into the actual combat... the give and take, cat and mouse, manage your build right, don't chase so hard you leave yourself open for a counter... combat talk

    . PLEASE MMO GODS DONT let them make this a whoever attacks first gets the kill combat dumpster fire like 90 % of pvp out there today.

    Everything so far looks great!!!!! but we need systems details.....

    Can we see a simple player vrs player. Simple Duel and how skills and shit will work against actual players.... PLEASE!!!!

    Great job So far team
    Sincerely
    Optics- Saltless Cruelty
    Dark lord of the Sith and slayer of servers :0)
  • I posted this elsewhere but I was asked to post it here as well: so don't read if you read it elsewhere :)


    Action combat, in general, has some technical hurdles to overcome, especially when you have a lot of clients in one small area. Latency, for one, will be a bigger issue than with any passive stat-based blocking. It'll either limit the number of players in one area or people will be frustrated that the server said they didn't block what their client easily blocked. Or worse, taking damage from behind when your client says you are facing the target. Having a faster reaction time means nothing when fighting the latency monster.

    That said, if active block is added then it should not be universal. A tank, whose sole job is to take damage has more reason to hold block than other classes. If they end up holding block for 95% of all encounters while waiting on cooldowns then that is bad game design. NW and Eso has that type of active block tanking and it's boring and unrewarding. Their encounters are designed in a way that if players try to do anything but hold block while waiting on cooldowns they risk getting one-shotted.

    Tanks in AoC would need more than active block to help mitigate damage to do their job well. They also need to be able to attack yet constantly holding out a shield won't allow for basic attacking, especially if damage is required to hold aggro.

    Also using a baseline stamina system that does both blocking and dodging is also not good as those are two different sets of skills. Tanks, again, block a lot more than your average dps and the few times they need to dodge leaves them with almost no blocking. Gw2 does this better than most by only have dodge tied to a "stamina" resource and using skills for blocking.

    There is a reason why many modern mmo players feel that tank is an outdated class in modern mmo design (i.e action combat MMOs)-- it's because they are not designed with them in mind when designers use universal systems for all classes. Active block works well with dps classes (who barely use it), and dps players love active block, but active block for tanks can be frustrating.

    If a universal stamina system goes into effect, my biggest fear is that tanking will be less "fun" than dps, unrewarding, and therefore have less players wanting to play the archetype, which is not what any of us want.
  • Overall I just can't wait to play the game and it would be difficult to say yes or no to anything until I have hands on experience using it. HOWEVER. What I would like to see is a greater depth of healing potential being introduced to the game. So for example, being able to enchant healing effects into gear, be it armor, jewlery, weapons, etc. And not just the basics of... + X% lifesteal per hit, or jsut flat out increases to HP. What I would like to see in terms of depth are enchantments or special effects or even racial traits that could do something along the lines of:
    After afflicting a total of X number of status effects on a target or multiple targets, gain a healing buff for x amount per second, or maybe gain a temporary shield barrier that blocks all incoming damage for X number of times based on a stacking buff after dealing status effects to targets.
    Unique ways like this are honestly the way forward in any MMO coming out if you want to break the mold of the boring and drab way every MMO currently has been forcing down our throats.

    GIST of everything not just healing. If we could have a game where not only is there the direct Damage to target does X. But also if we can have conditionals, stackable effects, affliction effects both positive and negative. Abilities and buffs that can be outrageously powerful but have a nasty drawback if you use them. ANYTHING to add more depth to the world. I even have plans for a "Progenitor" system in mind for an end-game system that I thought up for a MMO if I ever get the chance to make one or work on one. But if it gets used here for Ashes, thats fine with me too. I've been tired of all these games where there is no purpose after you either hit cap level or finish the questline and DLC's just dont cut it for me. So if anyone is interested by all means let me know.
  • zombinvestorzombinvestor Member
    edited December 2022
    The sandal constellation release! I think it's funny how miscommunication may lead to people thinking Steven is brave for openly expressing his foot fetish! So Zombies have a strong HP Regen in this game?
    I think it was dred who said his character was a real tank, i liked having dred on the devstream.
    I would rather the archetype/elemental damage system interactions be correct, instead of just having a simple to understand enemy and damage type comparison tables. Sometimes I learn about new interactions in anime and manhuas that add up to general conclusions of fantasy world magic and how the magic changes things.
    It sounded like shield parrying is faster to react, and non shield parrys have a slight hidden delay programmed into them.
    I wish the Devstream included a showcase for the new shop cosmetic set, talked about before or after the discussion of the current set.
    I would like a update on when the flowers and grass will change to 3D. Currently they look 2D.
    Axiom-Guild-Signature-Template.png
  • Synergy and Status
    • Big fan of the status combos
    • Will status effect types be one of the modifications that a secondary class offers?
    • Concerned about single characters being able to perform status combos solo. Could be unbalancing.
    • CC from status could make for awful pvp gameplay if it operates similar to what was demonstrated here. Imagining lockdowns long enough to kill player before they can respond.

    Party Comp and Meta
    • I like the idea of archetype and status skills playing leading roles in group comp
    • Flexibility in party comp, especially for pvp, is ideal
    • A meta is probably inevitable, but hopefully dev response can quickly address rebalancing needs, or at least shift the meta with regular updates.

    Active Blocking
    • There was too little active blocking in the demo for me to really form an opinion on it.
    • For sure makes sense to allow active blocking on basic attacks melee and ranged.
    • For abilities, active blocking could end up feeling bad.
    • Maybe active blocking just offers damage mitigation against direct damage abilities and blocks basic attacks outright; both reduce blocking players "endurance"
    • no effect on AOE

    UI
    • I'm a fan of a clean UI so I like what we've seen so far.
    • Hard to say much more without having some time to fiddle.

    Thanks for the updates!!
  • It is very difficult to give feedback when your presentation is regressive in quality and shows so little of the class.
    First ppl ranted for half-ass showcase of fighter, you rectify that with the ranger to only go back and again show half of the "hybrid" style the game claims to inspire to. We didn't see any action camera selection of targets for the cleric, to make things even worse Steven was clicking everything, if you are going to make proper showcase you should be able to present both sides of your hybrid system and tab rotation between targets/ assist selection/ or assigned pt member selection with key binds etc.

    Show and tell means exactly that you show and tell, there weren't any explanation of the skills, mere few sec hovering over the skillset and more goofing around and sidetracking with other information than class show.

    As not all skills were explained I can only say I liked the idea of skill effects being linked between classes, and that would make a good motif for party diversity.
    What was visible from the UI was non-intrusive compared to the huge, edgy and thick ground radicals, the rainbow (I hate it as of personal note, I prefer single color effects- find it more easier to follow what class the spell came from if they have each a color theme of their own) colored spells and thick chain lightning spell.

    In hopes for better showcases in future in specific/separated videos and not showcasing 2-3 unrelated things (looking at you day-night cycle) together, wishing all the team happy holidays and fructuous advancement in the new 2023!
    When the flame of life glimmers in the wind, my hand shall guard it
    When the weak waver on their path, my spirit shall be their guide
    When the strong fall to darkness, my heart shall be their beacon
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