Tank feedback
In ative block, use stamina, 100% dmg reduction (it's not fair we have to stand there just watching getting hit and taking damage anyway) and some skill for recover stamina (For we build some skill rotation for recover stamina).
The issue for me is not the mob training itself, is how stupid mob AI is, the majority of mob training should only be a thing in old games with bad AI and threat systems.
I totally agree!
Also, I think the term "Pass Parade" would be better, as used in the novel DanMachi.
High risk, high reward. Make it possible but make it difficult to do. Whether that be mob CCs during chases to slow down the players training or even just making escapes more difficult, to just making pulling many enemies dangerous.
I do believe that pulling enemies to a player harvesting something and using a "vanish" or "feign death" ability next to them with mobs to make them aggro is tasteless though. Make players actually PVP if they want to battle for resources instead of indirect PVP to avoid flagging.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited February 2023
Personally I see it as a griefing tactic not to mention that it always looks so silly when you see one person training mobs of 15 odd NPCs onto their intended PVP targets.
As dolyem has said I'd prefer people use their characters to pvp and people relied on their own skills rather than trying to get people to engage a line of mobs.
I'd prefer it if mob training were not possible, as i just see it as a work around of ingame systems in an effort to avoid the punishments put in place through the corruption system. Unless all those punishments are added to those who would utilize NPC trains then this remains a grief tactic. And should have no place in the game.
I have no issue with this, if it is in moderation. I don't think a person should be able to run past 20 npc and run them into a group of 5 people working on a boss to wipe them. I do think a few players being able to taunt 1 or 2 npc and bringing them into a fight is acceptable. I just find it as poor design to allow 1 or 2 people to troll and bring in a huge amount of npc to wipe a group clearing content... that they could not take on as their own group. I also agree with the statement of " if I have not hit that target it should not rage on me when someone else taunted it" If you take aggro you should have the aggro until others attack said target and take the aggro.
As someone who has always loved open-world and team-based PvP content I am grateful for this question being asked.
I love objective-based combat (battlegrounds, capture the flag, king of the kill, resource stealing/protection).
Training is lame in open-world combat because most often I've seen it used to punish players who maybe were unprepared for combat or not wanting to engage in PVP or with the intent to ruin the fun of another player. I agree with the others who consider it a grief/bully/troll mechanic.
"shit happens" sometimes during an open-world fight where monsters are accidentally agro'd but exploiting agro mechanics of a monster to pull them onto an unsuspecting person is not good.
Just let people do what they want... People that argue and complain about what is griefing and what isn't are just lame people. Less policing, more drama... That's what made mmorpgs in the day great. I only view griefing as an issue when it prevents others from playing the game. Training does not do that... it just forces you to either figure out how to deal with it or go do something else for a while.
I think adding an arena style feature for competitive pvp is a huge thing needed in MMO, especially since most that fail don't include that aspect. I think having a 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 arena would help build out the game more as well and attract solid players to the game.
Having a pvp aspect also means that every class needs to have a kick and at least 1 stun or cc
Also i wanted to add that having pvp exclusive gear is also a huge add to any game and that way players who only pvp can have gear for the type of game play
Also i wanted to add that having pvp exclusive gear is also a huge add to any game and that way players who only pvp can have gear for the type of game play
Would you like to see mechanics that support or discourage training in Ashes of Creation?
I would like to see mechanics that discourage it.
My suggestion is first person to pull aggro should receive (5x the damage done in aggro to all pursuers) vs
(1x the damage aggro for second hitters) and so forth going down the line.
For example Tank Alpha pulls A,B,C and decides to run through group Beta. Tank Alpha for that group should have 5x the aggro on A,B,C so if they are hit by another group they would have to do 5x the aggro of Tank Alpha on all targets.
Or something similar.
I think adding an arena style feature for competitive pvp is a huge thing needed in MMO, especially since most that fail don't include that aspect. I think having a 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 arena would help build out the game more as well and attract solid players to the game.
Having a pvp aspect also means that every class needs to have a kick and at least 1 stun or cc
How many wagons do you need in the train to stop a caravan? Is it better to steer your trackless locomotive for a headlong collision or is it better to hit from the side?
How difficult should it be for a few people to form and bring, in a coordinated manner, their separate trains unto another group/guild trying to defeat a world boss? What's the minimal number of individual necessary to ruin such a guild endeavour?
Also i wanted to add that having pvp exclusive gear is also a huge add to any game and that way players who only pvp can have gear for the type of game play
I have to disagree with this a bit.
If we want to encourage more open world pvp, sieging, conquest, resource control, we want the top gear to be crafted, and sellable.
PvX gear will mean we will fight over stuff, and pvp more often. Sure some guys will like to get all thier stuff purely from pvp only vendors, but that has always in every game been a smaller crowd. Meaning far more players would be just as likely to take the pve only option to get gear, and just avoid pvp whenever and wherever they could.
Its would be better to encourage things to be resource driven and scarce so there is natural conflict, so the larger crowd would be encouraged to fight over and defend resources.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like training but probably doesn't need to be possible in all situations. Probably can be some things that can be trained.
Mix - its the execution and maybe Intention I think that will matters.
Training goes hand to hand with Leashing and I think Leashing should be really long.
Can you train mobs onto other players? Directly, No - Indirectly yes
By that, I mean some classes may be able to train into a group. These classes may have abilities that will allow them to feign death.
But should Invisibility, Stealth, hide, Blink allow this to work? NO.
The other way training can be accomplish is having the victim group to somehow manage to get on top of the threat list. I can think of 2 ways to go about this and one of them isn't a good way.
1) Pulling a mob creates a small amount of threat, therefor it is easy to pass this threat unto a new group when they do an AOE / Heal that will get the monster attention. A solution to this would be, an initial pull creates a high threat point.
Example: A rogue tosses a rock to hit the zombie and drag it over to the new group. The rock dealt 10 points of damage which equate to 100 points of threat. But if we change this to, automatically give the initial hit 10,000 points - then it will be hard for the rogue to dump the mob as easily unto the other group. This also creates an unintentional imbalance for tanks and dealing with aggro - as this will make things easy mode. So this is the BAD WAY of handling it.
2) Pulling a mob - after 3 or 5 seconds of inactive combat (Either the puller doesnt hit the mob AND the mob has been unable to hit the player) it will create threat as it is chasing the player. So for every second after the first 3 or 5 seconds creates 250 points of threat. The MOB AI needs to be "chasing", actively moving and unable to hit the player. If it hit the player - the timer resets.
Now this creates a scenerio: Does the trainer risk getting hit a few times to maintain low threat to pass onto the group? Risk/Reward
For PvE - Same issue applies, is your tank also the puller, maybe it benefits him to create threat while pulling. Maybe it's the ranger, can the tank be able to pull the aggro off when the ranger arrive? Or will the ranger take a few hits. Maybe the 3-5 seconds is enough time for it to not matter either.
I don't like training other groups to be super easy, but I do want it to be a thing. Just dragging a minotaur into the room shouldnt mean, he stops and hits us when his initial target was the rogue who poked him in the butt.
When leashing is finished - if your intention wasnt to train others but to merely escape that is fine. I do believe, Mobs should linger a bit in it's new place before returning back to their spawn point. On route back to their location - they should be able to aggro into other groups. It's a living world, a living dungeon - I don't want to see a Minotaur walk passed us, nods at us, while returning to his room. That's just silly. He should be like, I ran off that rogue, now I am gonna run off the rest of the intruders I find on my way back.
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
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FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I Hope u understand that this social bulling was and has to be in game...u cant ban all social interactions, we need full freedom and we all take responsability for what we doing! U can allow hit only mobs....and what we get? boring sht...we need full freedom! thats all...whis is different world with different people! - this is interesting!, if all will be the same - thats not good)
For those of you that remember blackburrow outside of Qeynos, training is either remembered fondly or with great hatred. And who really hates Leroy Jenkins besides the people who were in that group? Not really a train I know, but the chaos was hilarious.
My 2c: training is a result of the spawn rate, AI aggro and leashing mechanisms in the game. I would prefer a new MMO to have enough design control to have some places be ridiculously chaotic train stations with people using every tactic they can to get the rare drops and other places to be calmer and/or the mobs more sticky and able to see through invisible or FD more easily.
So yes, I think training is a viable pvp tactic, but it shouldn’t be the same everywhere in every situation and there should be risks on the Trainor that match up to the risks of the trainee. Also, some fun “anti-train” mechanics would be good. If a necro runs up and “drops” dead in front of you, having an ability to strip it or throw them back to the mobs would be fun for example
If training was to be a real thing in Ashes, would the game have mechanics implemented in order to make it a fun and challenging experience?
People get divisive on this topics. Some say OWPVP is griefing and unfun. BUT when OWPVP is done well, its actually fun to play with.
The way I see it, training CAN be made fun. Here are some aspects of what could make it so:
- Hard to aggro many mobs at once - This could be done with CC, mob speed, or just mob AI. Imagine every mob of some kind use a skill that does a 5% slow on the player, stacking. You probably cant aggro more than X (accounting for speed buffs) before you get so slow that you end up dead.
- Having the right tools to react and respond to a train - Aggro management skills, AOE CC, etc. Cooldown times for big abilities should be mindful of pack respawn time.
- Area design that accounts for this. This is more relevant to dungeons or world boss and arena locations.
However, if mob training is just a "allowed"on the code but non accounted for, not a system with attention and detail, it will in the end be just griefing and exploited by players.
TL;DR - yes but only if you can do it right. If not just disallow it.
Pulling mobs onto people who are not engaged in PvP (greens) is something I consider griefing, and don't much like it.
However, when engaged in PvP where all parties are purple/red then using environmental hazards (water, falling damage, mobs, etc) are completely fair game. But, it can't be too easy. If you're chasing me through an area with mobs and I manage to navigate the area without aggro and you pick up aggro, that's your fault and I should be able to capitalize.
Consider making "initial aggro" significant and group-wide. For example, the person who pulls get (body pulls) 10% of mobs health worth of aggro. But all of his party members also get 5% of mobs health worth of aggro.
After a mob is pulled, turn off proximity-based aggro for that mob
If a player has zero threat against a mob, make their ability casts that don't affect the mob (heals, buffs or offensive casts against players) give them zero threat
Now a player would have to cast single target abilities on the mob or catch them in an AE to get on the hate list for a mob someone else pulled. Then it's on, because then their self heals/buffs would generate more hate.
For those of you that remember blackburrow outside of Qeynos, training is either remembered fondly or with great hatred. And who really hates Leroy Jenkins besides the people who were in that group? Not really a train I know, but the chaos was hilarious.
My 2c: training is a result of the spawn rate, AI aggro and leashing mechanisms in the game. I would prefer a new MMO to have enough design control to have some places be ridiculously chaotic train stations with people using every tactic they can to get the rare drops and other places to be calmer and/or the mobs more sticky and able to see through invisible or FD more easily.
So yes, I think training is a viable pvp tactic, but it shouldn’t be the same everywhere in every situation and there should be risks on the Trainor that match up to the risks of the trainee. Also, some fun “anti-train” mechanics would be good. If a necro runs up and “drops” dead in front of you, having an ability to strip it or throw them back to the mobs would be fun for example
Dont think I ever been to BB during its prime... Unrest * Mistimoore were nightmare. I loved when I finally got to Mistimoore after a 1hr trek and just zoned in for the first time, to be met with dark elf vampire instant 1 shotting me... only to realize I forgot to BIND and I am back in Freeport!!!!
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
Comments
Ashes is not strictly a PvE game, therefore, the environment and NPCs should be able to be used as a weapon.
Also make dedicated skills to level up, related to train control, either to create them or to cancel them.
In ative block, use stamina, 100% dmg reduction (it's not fair we have to stand there just watching getting hit and taking damage anyway) and some skill for recover stamina (For we build some skill rotation for recover stamina).
Also, I think the term "Pass Parade" would be better, as used in the novel DanMachi.
I do believe that pulling enemies to a player harvesting something and using a "vanish" or "feign death" ability next to them with mobs to make them aggro is tasteless though. Make players actually PVP if they want to battle for resources instead of indirect PVP to avoid flagging.
As dolyem has said I'd prefer people use their characters to pvp and people relied on their own skills rather than trying to get people to engage a line of mobs.
I'd prefer it if mob training were not possible, as i just see it as a work around of ingame systems in an effort to avoid the punishments put in place through the corruption system. Unless all those punishments are added to those who would utilize NPC trains then this remains a grief tactic. And should have no place in the game.
I love objective-based combat (battlegrounds, capture the flag, king of the kill, resource stealing/protection).
Training is lame in open-world combat because most often I've seen it used to punish players who maybe were unprepared for combat or not wanting to engage in PVP or with the intent to ruin the fun of another player. I agree with the others who consider it a grief/bully/troll mechanic.
"shit happens" sometimes during an open-world fight where monsters are accidentally agro'd but exploiting agro mechanics of a monster to pull them onto an unsuspecting person is not good.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts
Having a pvp aspect also means that every class needs to have a kick and at least 1 stun or cc
No pvp gear thanks. Pvx gear.
I would like to see mechanics that discourage it.
My suggestion is first person to pull aggro should receive (5x the damage done in aggro to all pursuers) vs
(1x the damage aggro for second hitters) and so forth going down the line.
For example Tank Alpha pulls A,B,C and decides to run through group Beta. Tank Alpha for that group should have 5x the aggro on A,B,C so if they are hit by another group they would have to do 5x the aggro of Tank Alpha on all targets.
Or something similar.
I dont think you read the prompt.
How difficult should it be for a few people to form and bring, in a coordinated manner, their separate trains unto another group/guild trying to defeat a world boss? What's the minimal number of individual necessary to ruin such a guild endeavour?
I have to disagree with this a bit.
If we want to encourage more open world pvp, sieging, conquest, resource control, we want the top gear to be crafted, and sellable.
PvX gear will mean we will fight over stuff, and pvp more often. Sure some guys will like to get all thier stuff purely from pvp only vendors, but that has always in every game been a smaller crowd. Meaning far more players would be just as likely to take the pve only option to get gear, and just avoid pvp whenever and wherever they could.
Its would be better to encourage things to be resource driven and scarce so there is natural conflict, so the larger crowd would be encouraged to fight over and defend resources.
Training goes hand to hand with Leashing and I think Leashing should be really long.
Can you train mobs onto other players? Directly, No - Indirectly yes
By that, I mean some classes may be able to train into a group. These classes may have abilities that will allow them to feign death.
But should Invisibility, Stealth, hide, Blink allow this to work? NO.
The other way training can be accomplish is having the victim group to somehow manage to get on top of the threat list. I can think of 2 ways to go about this and one of them isn't a good way.
1) Pulling a mob creates a small amount of threat, therefor it is easy to pass this threat unto a new group when they do an AOE / Heal that will get the monster attention. A solution to this would be, an initial pull creates a high threat point.
Example: A rogue tosses a rock to hit the zombie and drag it over to the new group. The rock dealt 10 points of damage which equate to 100 points of threat. But if we change this to, automatically give the initial hit 10,000 points - then it will be hard for the rogue to dump the mob as easily unto the other group. This also creates an unintentional imbalance for tanks and dealing with aggro - as this will make things easy mode. So this is the BAD WAY of handling it.
2) Pulling a mob - after 3 or 5 seconds of inactive combat (Either the puller doesnt hit the mob AND the mob has been unable to hit the player) it will create threat as it is chasing the player. So for every second after the first 3 or 5 seconds creates 250 points of threat. The MOB AI needs to be "chasing", actively moving and unable to hit the player. If it hit the player - the timer resets.
Now this creates a scenerio: Does the trainer risk getting hit a few times to maintain low threat to pass onto the group? Risk/Reward
For PvE - Same issue applies, is your tank also the puller, maybe it benefits him to create threat while pulling. Maybe it's the ranger, can the tank be able to pull the aggro off when the ranger arrive? Or will the ranger take a few hits. Maybe the 3-5 seconds is enough time for it to not matter either.
I don't like training other groups to be super easy, but I do want it to be a thing. Just dragging a minotaur into the room shouldnt mean, he stops and hits us when his initial target was the rogue who poked him in the butt.
When leashing is finished - if your intention wasnt to train others but to merely escape that is fine. I do believe, Mobs should linger a bit in it's new place before returning back to their spawn point. On route back to their location - they should be able to aggro into other groups. It's a living world, a living dungeon - I don't want to see a Minotaur walk passed us, nods at us, while returning to his room. That's just silly. He should be like, I ran off that rogue, now I am gonna run off the rest of the intruders I find on my way back.
leashing is one way
the other would be to feign death
and in some mmo - and should not be replicated in AoC, you can go invisible, stealth, hide next to another group.
I think if I stop to pick a flower the NPC should stop though.
My 2c: training is a result of the spawn rate, AI aggro and leashing mechanisms in the game. I would prefer a new MMO to have enough design control to have some places be ridiculously chaotic train stations with people using every tactic they can to get the rare drops and other places to be calmer and/or the mobs more sticky and able to see through invisible or FD more easily.
So yes, I think training is a viable pvp tactic, but it shouldn’t be the same everywhere in every situation and there should be risks on the Trainor that match up to the risks of the trainee. Also, some fun “anti-train” mechanics would be good. If a necro runs up and “drops” dead in front of you, having an ability to strip it or throw them back to the mobs would be fun for example
If training was to be a real thing in Ashes, would the game have mechanics implemented in order to make it a fun and challenging experience?
People get divisive on this topics. Some say OWPVP is griefing and unfun. BUT when OWPVP is done well, its actually fun to play with.
The way I see it, training CAN be made fun. Here are some aspects of what could make it so:
- Hard to aggro many mobs at once - This could be done with CC, mob speed, or just mob AI. Imagine every mob of some kind use a skill that does a 5% slow on the player, stacking. You probably cant aggro more than X (accounting for speed buffs) before you get so slow that you end up dead.
- Having the right tools to react and respond to a train - Aggro management skills, AOE CC, etc. Cooldown times for big abilities should be mindful of pack respawn time.
- Area design that accounts for this. This is more relevant to dungeons or world boss and arena locations.
However, if mob training is just a "allowed"on the code but non accounted for, not a system with attention and detail, it will in the end be just griefing and exploited by players.
TL;DR - yes but only if you can do it right. If not just disallow it.
However, when engaged in PvP where all parties are purple/red then using environmental hazards (water, falling damage, mobs, etc) are completely fair game. But, it can't be too easy. If you're chasing me through an area with mobs and I manage to navigate the area without aggro and you pick up aggro, that's your fault and I should be able to capitalize.
Now a player would have to cast single target abilities on the mob or catch them in an AE to get on the hate list for a mob someone else pulled. Then it's on, because then their self heals/buffs would generate more hate.
Dont think I ever been to BB during its prime... Unrest * Mistimoore were nightmare. I loved when I finally got to Mistimoore after a 1hr trek and just zoned in for the first time, to be met with dark elf vampire instant 1 shotting me... only to realize I forgot to BIND and I am back in Freeport!!!!