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Throne and Liberty systems similar to AoC & Their twist on them

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  • We've got another trailer, this time with DLSS3 support confirmation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50AqxhK0GxQ
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Still looks interesting but lack lustre. Still might play it until ashes releases though. I'm just not sold on the morphing into animals.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Analysis (super lazy today so I'm just gonna copy-paste from comms since no one will mind. Names have been changed to protect the innocent)

    14:45 < GM> Response: YESSSS
    14:47 < GM> Throwing weapons, 'summoner' implications, movement speed confirmations, stealth being magical
    14:47 < GM> Group movement and synergies
    14:47 < GM> everything
    14:47 < TheOtherInnocent> well that was fancy
    14:47 < TheOtherInnocent> indeed
    14:47 < GM> this looks more like FFXI with every trailer
    14:51 < GM> I can do deeper analytics if anyone needs them, but the blanket data is 'looking good, no notes'
    14:52 < TheInnocent> Id like time stamps mostly
    14:52 < TheOtherInnocent> my main takeaways were 'group magic stealth', 'true birb transform confirmed in case it wasnt', 'hey that golem summon looked like, player-scale'
    14:52 < GM> hmk
    14:52 < GM> I assume 'throwing weapon possible' doesn't require one, so
    14:54 < GM> 0:30 gives a really good impression of movement speed and requirements, for a moment
    14:54 < GM> 0:34 is definitely 'group magic stealth'
    14:54 < GM> with a really nice windup and a big requirement, so it can't just happen randomly
    14:55 < GM> 0:42 is complex because I'm NOW pretty sure that thing is a Player Golem/Summon
    14:55 < GM> the 'one that looks like it has two huge metal doors as shields on its arms'
    14:55 < GM> whereas the other purple one you saw back at 0:30 is an enemy type
    14:56 < GM> you see it again at 0:50 fighting the 'DoorArm' one, so either both are summonable or at least one is
    14:56 < GM> and we see most if not all of the player attacks in that case focused on the Purple one
    14:56 < GM> SOMEONE is either in the form of, or controlling, 'DoorArm'
    14:57 < GM> and that's it.
    15:02 < TheInnocent> Siege golems are confirmed player controlled in one of the director interviews
    15:02 < GM> yes, but the thing is, this doesn't appear to be a siege
    15:02 < GM> that's what makes me think slightly differently
    15:02 < TheInnocent> True!
    15:03 < TheInnocent> You said summon?
    15:03 < GM> which implies a BIT that you just get 'to either transform into or summon it for a fight with a big boss'
    15:03 < GM> and based on what I know of their design, Summon would make SLIGHTLY more sense for this kind
    15:03 < GM> not at ALL suggesting that it will happen, but this KIND would be more of a 'point it at a target and it fights'
    15:04 < GM> whereas Siege Golems need to be 'properly controlled at all times, even movement'
    15:05 < GM> And it isn't highly mobile, which is normally the 'limit' a Summon has in a high precision/skill game
    15:05 < GM> no one is likely to have incorrect expectations of it.
    15:07 < TheInnocent> I see

    Laziness!
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).
  • edited January 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.

    Yeah I am now absolutely certain that this is either going to be the most complex 'Battle Pass' + 'Cosmetics to not look like a hobo' game ever, or straight P2W in all cases and forms.

    They used to hint that it would be the first (and I've seen a LOT of weird cosmetic options) due to basically knowing that it will not properly resonate with the global audience if it is too raw on the P2W aspects, but that sort of talk has suspiciously vanished, with no discussions of outright Subscription to replace it.

    On the other hand, they're pretty aware that if they want to compete with the Big Boss of MMOs at all right now, they are better off leaning on 'Battle Pass'/semi-optional Subscription, now that FFXIV has made that 'the norm' again on that end.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer


    7:37 onward if you are familiar with the other recent videos.

    Important stuff:
    AoE damage absorb on Tanks.
    Special augmentations on some stuff.
    Elixine high healing is bought in the 'Event shop' (basically something you can snag in PvP scenarios) with a cooldown of 15s, heals 1125, so the implication, since health ranges up to about 8k, seems that they don't want high speed 'potion spam' at least in some of their PvP contests.

    So far, everything lines up exactly with my expectations @NiKr, for combat design.

    Making no comment on P2W stuff or expectations on that front.

    Scope of some of this stuff is even better than I expected, but this isn't really the place to babble about that. Just keeping people up to date in case it inspires any actually useful feedback to Intrepid.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Scope of some of this stuff is even better than I expected, but this isn't really the place to babble about that. Just keeping people up to date in case it inspires any actually useful feedback to Intrepid.
    Yeah, all those additional effects and/or boosts to the base ability seem nice. And I'm looking forward to TL's version of the tank's "forcefield". Will definitely be a nice test for the mechanic before Alpha2.

    As for the hp pots. There's a chance that they'll have that instant version and a regen over time version for a smaller price or more easily available. At least that's what L2 had and there's been just too many similar things between the 2 games. Even the cd of 15s is kinda same, because that's the time of effect of L2's healing pots (though you could recast the pot within the last 5s of the effect).

    Looking forward to more info on it and hope that I can try it out on EU servers.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.

    I trust them there won't be any real pay to win.
  • edited February 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.

    I trust them there won't be any real pay to win.

    Any specific reason for that trust?
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited February 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.

    I trust them there won't be any real pay to win.

    Any specific reason for that trust?

    My make up
    93rb2y1docsi.png

  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

    They are hiding their T&L monetization plans so much, that no matter how i look at it, i expect Pay2Win Clown Fiesta entrenched within the game systems.

    I trust them there won't be any real pay to win.

    Any specific reason for that trust?

    My make up
    93rb2y1docsi.png

    I will make sure to buy the most colorful in-game cosmetic to match the IRL attire i will be wearing when login into it.

    gigachad-as-a-clown-v0-yz6tytndmj3a1.jpg?auto=webp&s=1790107162b4155301781cfc91190e6e04d8cb6d
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • I'm not sure whether that would be a good idea. Depending on the RL times players have (excluding super casuals) it might result in them only having one daytime to play in and that might be the one to be opposite of their gaming preference. Add to that how this could shift the online and offline rates. Players who aim for a more aggressive PvP game would all have no incentive to play by day and those who don't want to be part of the massacre simply only play by (ingame) day.

    Dividing the player base > I think there is significant risk that this would only split the players even though the day-and-night cycle to my awareness is 4 times as fast as in real life. Most people won't play 6h a day and if their time zone happens to put them in the unfavorable ingame time, they would probably just switch to a server in a time zone that favors their game style.

    Lore implication > And we might also ask ourselves if it would make sense from a lore perspective. The corruption comes from somewhere and why would the Gods all go to sleep at night an not care about corruption when the sun is down when they just finished creating an interdimensional Arche to help their children survive? I'm not sure whether it could be explained within the story of this world.

    Suggestion > What I think would work better and might actually be interesting would be (story) events where certain zones get corrupted by the Others and that disables the corruption system temporarily until they Others are being pushed back. This incentivizes the PvP zealots to protect this zone of chaos, while PvX and PvE players would get new interesting targets to take out before the corrupted zone shifts the power balance of the Nodes so much that one of the greater ZOI fall.

    Conclusion > There is merit to the mechanic but in my opinion only on an event based system rather than as a continuous mechanic with regular predictable reoccurrence.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Well, if this leak is true then those reqs are quite nice and I'll even be able to launch the game. And TL is supposedly still on UE4, so in theory UE5 should be optimized even better, so there's hope that my ancient 1080 will survive AoC too o:)
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  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Not so bad if there's no loading screens but loading screens and hdd would be a nightmare.
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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Well, if this leak is true then those reqs are quite nice and I'll even be able to launch the game. And TL is supposedly still on UE4, so in theory UE5 should be optimized even better, so there's hope that my ancient 1080 will survive AoC too o:)
    bomj32xmlosk.png

    That looks like what I'd expect, yeah. That said, my experience on this front is pretty small so I only mention it to clarify why this doesn't make me expect a delay nor consider the term 'Alpha' to be incorrect.

    There's some other leaks floating around on Reddit that imply things will be basically an L2-BDO Hybrid, but with mostly the better aspects of both, and possibly one bit of staggeringly annoying P2W (or more accurately an RNG game mechanic that may or may not have a P2W aspect but only makes sense to implement if you intend to use it to get money from desperate players)

    Also there are now four implications that the economy will be bad/sub BDO tier, but none of them guarantee it, and I don't think the Korean MMO market 'evolution' would ever fix two of them anyway. Surprised they added two more though, so I'm basically expecting to ditch this game (as a serious form of entertainment) too after a few months, but have it take up my 'BDO' slot for studying at least.

    Hoping for the best, expecting the worst, unlike around here (for Ashes I hope for the best and expect mid-tier!)
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Another alleged leak. I forget, did we know about the death penalty? I don't quite remember if I knew that :D
    https://throneandliberty.online/alleged-alpha-tester-give-details-about-throne-and-liberty/
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Another alleged leak. I forget, did we know about the death penalty? I don't quite remember if I knew that :D
    https://throneandliberty.online/alleged-alpha-tester-give-details-about-throne-and-liberty/

    We did not.

    It's not that strange though, it's common in MMOs to have one for balancing the whole 'zombie zerg' attempts on bosses, right?

    BDO had penalties before they made the game 'palatable to whales' and FFXI exp loss could delevel you outright (and make you unable to wear your level 75 gear if you deleveled to 74) so raids and similar content was stricter.

    This really is still 'Lineage 3' under it all in terms of most functions, which is why I relied on you and James so much for clear data.

    Hoping for no Soulshots personally though.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    FFXI exp loss could delevel you outright (and make you unable to wear your level 75 gear if you deleveled to 74) so raids and similar content was stricter.
    Ah, almost the same as it worked in L2. L2 let you wear the gear, but put a penalty on you. Oh how many times I've deleveled myself below my newly bought gear, that quite often I bought BY SELLING MY OLDER ONE :D And then I had to fight super easy mobs just to level back up to my gear.
    Azherae wrote: »
    This really is still 'Lineage 3' under it all in terms of most functions, which is why I relied on you and James so much for clear data.

    Hoping for no Soulshots personally though.
    Yeah, I don't think I've heard of any other mmo where you pretty much HAD to have a resource if you wanted to play the game in a normal way (obviously not counting arrows). While I appreciate the interconnectedness of the crafting system that SS provided, I do think that we were all just too used to that mechanic to objectively judge its true value.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Funny how you mentioned SSs and now Ryve made a video about them :D Btw, @Azherae do you not want SS for economic reasons or gameplay ones? Or maybe p2w potential?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Funny how you mentioned SSs and now Ryve made a video about them :D Btw, @Azherae do you not want SS for economic reasons or gameplay ones? Or maybe p2w potential?

    I do not enjoy when games create unnecessary noob traps, nor when they balance content around a mandatory item, because it creates a duality.

    If you have the item, the content is trivial, if you don't, it's very punishing OR 'have item = reasonable, without item borderline impossible'.

    I think it's an unhealthy game design, but it's moreso that SoulShots, as they originally existed, are such an incredibly convoluted function taking up such a disparately large portion of the economic structure of L2 (this is based on that video you had me watch).

    I just think that it can be done better, and I see why it wasn't in L2, but seeing them in a fresh game would imply that they are explicitly trying to hit the L2 nostalgia vibe or couldn't come up with the alternate better methods, or worse, both.

    I'm no stranger to 'having an item that is required to do a lot of things in a game', FFXI Ninjas have to carry around one type of consumable 'tool' for every jutsu option (so about 13 inventory slots dedicated to just ninjutsu) but those are specific to the jutsu and you can do without them, you would just not choose to.

    Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.

    Anytime the game requires you to pull out the spreadsheet to figure out the optimal amount of money to spend in order to fight enjoyably, there's going to be a large subset of people who just end up being exploited by the sort of people I compete with.

    I just don't like games where 'being a good economy player' basically comes down to 'figuring out how to take advantage of other people's ignorance en masse', and while SoulShots were not that because of the way they were introduced over time, it feels like it would be a bad idea to start with them.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.
    Just as a small clarification, this was only true for magic shots, so fighter chars would either suffer w/o any or just spend money. It was a semi-quasi-notreally-balance against the mana consumption of mages, because as I said before magic classes could only do damage by using abilities so they'd always spend mana, while fighters could just auto-attack for good dmg. And mana regen consisted of sitting on your ass, so even though mages had higher dps per mob (especially if they had any kind of SS), the overall farming time would be somewhat similar (super aoe farm notwithstanding)

    But yeah, I get your point. There's definitely much better systems out there, so starting out a game with this kind of stuff would just lead to even worse design decisions later on.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.
    Just as a small clarification, this was only true for magic shots, so fighter chars would either suffer w/o any or just spend money. It was a semi-quasi-notreally-balance against the mana consumption of mages, because as I said before magic classes could only do damage by using abilities so they'd always spend mana, while fighters could just auto-attack for good dmg. And mana regen consisted of sitting on your ass, so even though mages had higher dps per mob (especially if they had any kind of SS), the overall farming time would be somewhat similar (super aoe farm notwithstanding)

    But yeah, I get your point. There's definitely much better systems out there, so starting out a game with this kind of stuff would just lead to even worse design decisions later on.

    Ashes theoretically has multiple superior models baked into the design right out of the gate, or so I assume because of my difficulty imagining a system that is NOT an improvement/hybrid of L2 and FFXI (based on what they said).

    Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.

    SImilarly, L2 has a lot of clear gaps that FF fills, so the two games' 'child' would be all-powerful.

    The issue, ofc, is that this is all just my imagination of what could/should be, and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of Ashes at all.

    I don't think an L2-BDO hybrid can be as effective because they'd have sections where the two games' implementations will clash, fail to mesh together properly, and create potential for really broken things. I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Argh, SouldShots. They're one of the elements that made sure L2 never really hooked me when I played (around NA launch). I always carried a few, in case of emergencies, but never liked the idea. Their power could be addictive, but they were my first interaction with P2W and the whole eastern MMO mindset, didn't play another one (except GW2) since then.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.
    Add EQ2's pace of content release and we'll have a more than perfect mmo o:)
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.
    L2 mainly relied on 10s cd 15s effect hp regen pots, with 6min cd big hp and mp pots, super rare no cd direct heal hp pots and a whole separate "health" bar with no cd low/mid pots for it.

    If I saw correctly in the TL videos, it does seem to just have direct healing pots. Maybe that was just the ones they had in their testing or maybe these ones fit their combat design better, I dunno.

    L2 added the second hp bar with its pots to prolong ttk by quite a lot, so TL might be going for the middle point, because they only had one bar. I personally liked the ttk with two hp bars, so I'd assume I'll like TL's combat if they do in fact have direct healing pots on a shorter cd.

    Though again, I'm mainly looking at it from a pvp perspective. I'd assume that this kind of healing design brings a ton of potential design issues to the pve part of the game. Oh, I forgot to mention that the second "hp" bar only applied in pvp, so for pve you still only had 1s tickrate hp regen pots which would help if you were kiting mobs or just running away, but would not keep you invincible against mobs of your lvl.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited April 2023
    Percimes wrote: »
    Argh, SouldShots. They're one of the elements that made sure L2 never really hooked me when I played (around NA launch). I always carried a few, in case of emergencies, but never liked the idea. Their power could be addictive, but they were my first interaction with P2W and the whole eastern MMO mindset, didn't play another one (except GW2) since then.
    Did NCsoft sell them even all the way back then? I don't think I've heard of them selling SS in the earlier chronicles. Or are you talking about rmt?
  • Yes, merchants sold them since the start, at least for the NA version (which was always a bit lagging the Korean one).

    The game was plagued with Chinese gold farmers at launch too. Global chat always had ads by them for gold. In my mind, at the time, SS were part of the incentive buy gold.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Percimes wrote: »
    Yes, merchants sold them since the start, at least for the NA version (which was always a bit lagging the Korean one).
    Damn, guess that info just never got to my info circles. Yeah, that's real shitty if they sold SS right from the start. That kinda destroys the whole point of the crafting system (well, not the whole, but stil).

    Then I definitely hope they don't appear in TL.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.
    Add EQ2's pace of content release and we'll have a more than perfect mmo o:)
    Azherae wrote: »
    I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.
    L2 mainly relied on 10s cd 15s effect hp regen pots, with 6min cd big hp and mp pots, super rare no cd direct heal hp pots and a whole separate "health" bar with no cd low/mid pots for it.

    If I saw correctly in the TL videos, it does seem to just have direct healing pots. Maybe that was just the ones they had in their testing or maybe these ones fit their combat design better, I dunno.

    L2 added the second hp bar with its pots to prolong ttk by quite a lot, so TL might be going for the middle point, because they only had one bar. I personally liked the ttk with two hp bars, so I'd assume I'll like TL's combat if they do in fact have direct healing pots on a shorter cd.

    Though again, I'm mainly looking at it from a pvp perspective. I'd assume that this kind of healing design brings a ton of potential design issues to the pve part of the game. Oh, I forgot to mention that the second "hp" bar only applied in pvp, so for pve you still only had 1s tickrate hp regen pots which would help if you were kiting mobs or just running away, but would not keep you invincible against mobs of your lvl.

    Anywhere I say FFXI I think you can mostly substitute EQ2, though I'm not entirely sure, since I think FF is more 'focused' in terms of how moment-to-moment combat goes and the economy might have been a little better around the middle of development.

    In terms of content release timings I think they were similar, but the fact is that there's no way to know because they both released 'more content than a person could seriously remember all of'.

    As for the healing balance and TTK, I'm going to remain skeptical mostly because I don't think Korean MMOs have the same goals at all usually in terms of player engagement, but I'm hopeful because I just naively assume that they really can't be expecting to have sub-MOBA level combat in 2023 in a fantasy game and expect people to take it seriously in a game where you basically have no real consequence.

    That's the underlying structural problem with MMOs on both 'ends' right now. Those that appeal to the 'I want to relax and RP and craft ONLY' crowd have combat that puts the 'I want to functionally fight a high stakes tactical battle every 10 minutes' crowd to sleep and vice versa. Only BDO and Albion seem to get into the middle properly and both of those are missing the spark of 'lasting consequence on the world/character technical progression' that keeps people playing more than 4 months.

    But I'd have to detail another huge BDO flaw for you to understand what I'm getting at. Basically they added a 'fairy' that follows you around and autoheals you with the potions in your inventory at some point... but you have to do stuff to even get it, and the strength of Fairy you get is RNG, as is the result of trying to level up a weaker one to be stronger, and the abilities they get, and you can only have one I think so if you had a mismatch you have to 'rebirth' it which then is most efficiently done byyyyy...

    Good ol' P2W.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • @NiKr The only use I was aware for them at the time was to boost your next attack damages. I think there was also a version for spells, but I can't remember, it's been a while hehe.

    As for TL, I haven't followed news about it, but from the little I've heard it hit a lot of my boxes, I'm just on the wary side, well, it's a NC Soft game and although I don't mind some level pay for convenience, I'm much more reticent for P2W.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
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