RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think its alright to discuss things that go from one mans word. Discussion leads to truth. Steven is a good man with a good game, but we can always work toward better, so with discussion we can improve. We should not gavel any argument that challenges his words.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
since when is BDO a PvE game? You must not have played real BDO
BDO is solidly PvX, fighting for grind spots, fighting node wars or guild wars, fighting over world bosses, killing someones horse, etc are all PvP?
There, again...
PvX is meaningless because I have never encountered non-consensual PvP (or any PvP) while playing BDO.
I play BDO purely PvE. Same for New World.
you dont have to fight another player in a pvx game. you can agree to cooperate. the nature of the game allows another player to be an obstacle, but you can just talk and be peaceful. only if you are carebears tho xDD
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2023
Or I can be the Ultimate Carebear and ignore PvP completely. Which is what I will be doing in Ashes.
Many others will probably choose not to play Ashes.
Which should be fine - because Ashes is not made for everyone.
Steven should be successful enough with EvE Online or L2 numbers, so...
No worries there.
Or I can be the Ultimate Carebear and ignore PvP completely. Which is what I will be doing in Ashes.
Many others will probably choose not to play Ashes.
Which should be fine - because Ashes is not made for everyone.
Steven should be successful enough with EvE Online or L2 numbers, so...
No worries there.
Sus. Cept the guy named Piemaster running around killing folks, we know that’s you.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2023
More likely to be the lady named Cake Mistress merely shoving cake down people's throats.
"MOAR cake for YOU!"
you dont have to fight another player in a pvx game. you can agree to cooperate. the nature of the game allows another player to be an obstacle, but you can just talk and be peaceful. only if you are carebears tho xDD
More likely to be the lady named Cake Mistress merely shoving cake down people's throats.
"MOAR cake for YOU!"
My in-game will be FiddleBerry Cake. Just for you
One day “Gushing Granny” will find me in game armed with pies built like gushers and hunt me to claim some of my 5 copper equivalent account value and I’m just going to die of laughter
no developer insights please - strictly speculation and personal opinion for purposes of forum threads...
I mean, when we are talking about communication between players, yeah, this is actually true.
Developers will use marketing terms regard of anything else. Marketing terms are - by design - supposed to make a game appeal to more people. As such, they are inherently going to be less clear than players talking to players.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
no developer insights please - strictly speculation and personal opinion for purposes of forum threads...
I mean, when we are talking about communication between players, yeah, this is actually true.
Developers will use marketing terms regard of anything else. Marketing terms are - by design - supposed to make a game appeal to more people. As such, they are inherently going to be less clear than players talking to players.
While I can agree that marketing plays a factor. I certainly don't think that every time one of them talks that it's marketing and should not be taken seriously.
They are also held accountable for what they do say so they are more careful in their wording and how they describe things. With accuracy being a paramount part of it.
Players on the other hand tend to gravitate towards their own biases. So it can definitely also be both. They should be involved in all discussions if you want to dismiss their comments that should be a personal choice
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In this case - Steven is the one doing most of the talking.
But, also... for the past two years, he has been acting as Lead Game Designer.
And, he's also lost several other key Leads who were EQ devs.
And.. keep in mind that Steven is a gamer who is still learning to think like a game dev and learning to think like Marketing. So... all of his gamer biases and playstyle biases are still paramount in his decisions.
When i say Modern MMO's/RPGs feel empty it barely seems to even scratch the surface.
...
Which is probably why it takes someone like Steven Shariff to change things. Remember WoW had 0 experience going in to making their MMO with only a vision and not enough money, before WoW they made RTS's and Action RPGs in a world where gaming itself was certainly not mainstream.
"People want an MMO that’s like a sports car of the past – the ones that they grew up playing. What people want isn’t so much the nostalgia, what they want is a modern take on what they liked in the past. And as soon as somebody manages to come out with an MMO that’s good and it has all the old features so that it actually feels like an MMO instead of feeling like Facebook, well then, yes, that will, that will take off. So that’s what I would – I’d expect a reboot rather than somebody coming along trying to make a WoW that’s better than WoW, although there are some in Korea that look like they’re doing quite well, if only they didn’t have that dreadful free-to-play model that’s going to put off anybody who wants any kind of immersion, so."
(c) professor Richard Bartle, the author of the book "Designing Virtual Worlds"
MMORPG is such a drug, the buzz from the first dose of which you are looking for the rest of your life. So we all expect Steven's team to succeed. We believe in them. Personally, I would have bought Voyager plus pack a long time ago, but there is no money.
When i say Modern MMO's/RPGs feel empty it barely seems to even scratch the surface.
...
Which is probably why it takes someone like Steven Shariff to change things. Remember WoW had 0 experience going in to making their MMO with only a vision and not enough money, before WoW they made RTS's and Action RPGs in a world where gaming itself was certainly not mainstream.
"People want an MMO that’s like a sports car of the past – the ones that they grew up playing. What people want isn’t so much the nostalgia, what they want is a modern take on what they liked in the past. And as soon as somebody manages to come out with an MMO that’s good and it has all the old features so that it actually feels like an MMO instead of feeling like Facebook, well then, yes, that will, that will take off. So that’s what I would – I’d expect a reboot rather than somebody coming along trying to make a WoW that’s better than WoW, although there are some in Korea that look like they’re doing quite well, if only they didn’t have that dreadful free-to-play model that’s going to put off anybody who wants any kind of immersion, so."
(c) professor Richard Bartle, the author of the book "Designing Virtual Worlds"
MMORPG is such a drug, the buzz from the first dose of which you are looking for the rest of your life. So we all expect Steven's team to succeed. We believe in them. Personally, I would have bought Voyager plus pack a long time ago, but there is no money.
While the first experience leaves memories, you can still experience things you have never experienced before and become new references when it comes to define what kind of experience you expect to find in the next game.
While the first experience leaves memories, you can still experience things you have never experienced before and become new references when it comes to define what kind of experience you expect to find in the next game.
I wish AoC would just let players choose at level 15 if they want to flag for PVP or not but make it permanent. You can only attack other players that are 5 levels above or below you. Killing a player starts a timer that prevents you from attacking that same player for a set period of time. I'm sure they are smart enough to flesh out the details.
I wish AoC would just let players choose at level 15 if they want to flag for PVP or not but make it permanent. You can only attack other players that are 5 levels above or below you. Killing a player starts a timer that prevents you from attacking that same player for a set period of time. I'm sure they are smart enough to flesh out the details.
I don't think you can get the meaningful conflict from PVE like you can PVP. It adds that competitive nature like cheering for your sports team as well an actual personal investment to
What I really hope for is these PVEers open themselves up to the idea that despite having PvP in this game it can still be VERY much something they will enjoy. They will most likely not be pigeon holed in to even partaking in it but they it will create a much better PVE environment.
I wish AoC would just let players choose at level 15 if they want to flag for PVP or not but make it permanent. You can only attack other players that are 5 levels above or below you. Killing a player starts a timer that prevents you from attacking that same player for a set period of time. I'm sure they are smart enough to flesh out the details.
That's counter to the entire design and would undermine mostly everything. It's more focused on social/conflict. You are going to be in a dangerous world! I'll explain...
It won't be like WoW PVP/Warmode where other players will just be able to attack you with no real penalties and infact rewarded for doing it. They will be heavily penalized to the concern that it might be too harsh(alpha 2 will tell us). This system is very rare and most players are not familiar with it and have a hard time seeing how it plays out.
What you want would be more for a PVP focused game and this is not that. They don't want players necessarily killing anyone that don't want to engage. However you can't just be a massive asshole and expect for a player not to kill you. That simply existing in the world will change how players engage with each other.
Let's say a bunch of people are in an area farming or gathering. Someone sees a corrupted player and those players don't want PVP. That becomes an choice to be made, risk sticking around? I probably would, he most likely isn't after you but it still creates an atmosphere of danger.
That player knows he can't just kill anyone with out bigger penalties but also other players that are looking for that PVP will most likely come out and clear the person out. Turns out this was an ambush set up and while you don't engage with it, you are at risk and can actually choose to engage.
It becomes a sort of experience if real world conflict with out actually engaging. Maybe the people that come join are part of your guild/Node.
This entire social conflict world only exists if everyone partakes of it.
Intrepid will launch as a game with pvp influence. Now will it be heavily pvp focused? Probably.... What I am curious about though is how much will AOC change 9 months after launch. Player counts, health of servers etc, all play a big part of why game studios make the changes they do with their game design. This could even be something as simple as intrepid deciding that sieges happen more often, or more dungeons populate when a node upgrades. etc.
Intrepid will launch as a game with pvp influence. Now will it be heavily pvp focused? Probably.... What I am curious about though is how much will AOC change 9 months after launch. Player counts, health of servers etc, all play a big part of why game studios make the changes they do with their game design. This could even be something as simple as intrepid deciding that sieges happen more often, or more dungeons populate when a node upgrades. etc.
Well I think we need to get in to Alpha 2 first. I think because of the open development that most big changes will happen here rather then post Launch.
no developer insights please - strictly speculation and personal opinion for purposes of forum threads...
I mean, when we are talking about communication between players, yeah, this is actually true.
Developers will use marketing terms regard of anything else. Marketing terms are - by design - supposed to make a game appeal to more people. As such, they are inherently going to be less clear than players talking to players.
While I can agree that marketing plays a factor. I certainly don't think that every time one of them talks that it's marketing and should not be taken seriously.
They are also held accountable for what they do say so they are more careful in their wording and how they describe things. With accuracy being a paramount part of it.
Players on the other hand tend to gravitate towards their own biases. So it can definitely also be both. They should be involved in all discussions if you want to dismiss their comments that should be a personal choice
While I agree with you in part, keep in mind that the term "PvX" doesn't tell players at all what to expect.
As I said earlier in this thread, I have a game in mind that can be considered PvX, using just that, attempt to describe as much of the gameplay as possible.
The amount of accurate detail of game play you can derive from the term "PvX" is significantly lower than the amount of gameplay detail you can derive from the terms PvP or PvE.
PvX just means not totally PvE, and not totally PvP. That doesn't tell players anything in regards to an MMORPG other than that the game isn't PvE.
Comments
PvX is meaningless because I have never encountered non-consensual PvP (or any PvP) while playing BDO.
I play BDO purely PvE. Same for New World.
Many others will probably choose not to play Ashes.
Which should be fine - because Ashes is not made for everyone.
Steven should be successful enough with EvE Online or L2 numbers, so...
No worries there.
Sus. Cept the guy named Piemaster running around killing folks, we know that’s you.
"MOAR cake for YOU!"
Exactly. Pie doesn't need violence to be awesome.
My in-game will be FiddleBerry Cake. Just for you
One day “Gushing Granny” will find me in game armed with pies built like gushers and hunt me to claim some of my 5 copper equivalent account value and I’m just going to die of laughter
There is a wiki page on this, with quotes from Steven on the subject! Might be interesting to some
It used to be pvp, STV, Badlands etc were a lot of fun (but also a gank fest with no scaling). Now, no, its not a pvp game.
Love you Vaknar.
I mean, when we are talking about communication between players, yeah, this is actually true.
Developers will use marketing terms regard of anything else. Marketing terms are - by design - supposed to make a game appeal to more people. As such, they are inherently going to be less clear than players talking to players.
While I can agree that marketing plays a factor. I certainly don't think that every time one of them talks that it's marketing and should not be taken seriously.
They are also held accountable for what they do say so they are more careful in their wording and how they describe things. With accuracy being a paramount part of it.
Players on the other hand tend to gravitate towards their own biases. So it can definitely also be both. They should be involved in all discussions if you want to dismiss their comments that should be a personal choice
But, also... for the past two years, he has been acting as Lead Game Designer.
And, he's also lost several other key Leads who were EQ devs.
And.. keep in mind that Steven is a gamer who is still learning to think like a game dev and learning to think like Marketing. So... all of his gamer biases and playstyle biases are still paramount in his decisions.
"People want an MMO that’s like a sports car of the past – the ones that they grew up playing. What people want isn’t so much the nostalgia, what they want is a modern take on what they liked in the past. And as soon as somebody manages to come out with an MMO that’s good and it has all the old features so that it actually feels like an MMO instead of feeling like Facebook, well then, yes, that will, that will take off. So that’s what I would – I’d expect a reboot rather than somebody coming along trying to make a WoW that’s better than WoW, although there are some in Korea that look like they’re doing quite well, if only they didn’t have that dreadful free-to-play model that’s going to put off anybody who wants any kind of immersion, so."
(c) professor Richard Bartle, the author of the book "Designing Virtual Worlds"
MMORPG is such a drug, the buzz from the first dose of which you are looking for the rest of your life. So we all expect Steven's team to succeed. We believe in them. Personally, I would have bought Voyager plus pack a long time ago, but there is no money.
While the first experience leaves memories, you can still experience things you have never experienced before and become new references when it comes to define what kind of experience you expect to find in the next game.
Let's hope so.
No thanks. Pvp on rails sucks.
What I really hope for is these PVEers open themselves up to the idea that despite having PvP in this game it can still be VERY much something they will enjoy. They will most likely not be pigeon holed in to even partaking in it but they it will create a much better PVE environment.
That's counter to the entire design and would undermine mostly everything. It's more focused on social/conflict. You are going to be in a dangerous world! I'll explain...
It won't be like WoW PVP/Warmode where other players will just be able to attack you with no real penalties and infact rewarded for doing it. They will be heavily penalized to the concern that it might be too harsh(alpha 2 will tell us). This system is very rare and most players are not familiar with it and have a hard time seeing how it plays out.
What you want would be more for a PVP focused game and this is not that. They don't want players necessarily killing anyone that don't want to engage. However you can't just be a massive asshole and expect for a player not to kill you. That simply existing in the world will change how players engage with each other.
Let's say a bunch of people are in an area farming or gathering. Someone sees a corrupted player and those players don't want PVP. That becomes an choice to be made, risk sticking around? I probably would, he most likely isn't after you but it still creates an atmosphere of danger.
That player knows he can't just kill anyone with out bigger penalties but also other players that are looking for that PVP will most likely come out and clear the person out. Turns out this was an ambush set up and while you don't engage with it, you are at risk and can actually choose to engage.
It becomes a sort of experience if real world conflict with out actually engaging. Maybe the people that come join are part of your guild/Node.
This entire social conflict world only exists if everyone partakes of it.
Well I think we need to get in to Alpha 2 first. I think because of the open development that most big changes will happen here rather then post Launch.
Wasn't the old label for PvX called PvPvE?
Saying it's PvX therefore it's not PvP is just silly.
While I agree with you in part, keep in mind that the term "PvX" doesn't tell players at all what to expect.
As I said earlier in this thread, I have a game in mind that can be considered PvX, using just that, attempt to describe as much of the gameplay as possible.
The amount of accurate detail of game play you can derive from the term "PvX" is significantly lower than the amount of gameplay detail you can derive from the terms PvP or PvE.
PvX just means not totally PvE, and not totally PvP. That doesn't tell players anything in regards to an MMORPG other than that the game isn't PvE.