wow is the same. you can just do battlegrounds and arena and ignore pve completely, or do dungeons and raids and ignore pvp completely. and of course, you can do both. but wow is basically 2 different games accessed using the same client and interface.
The point isn't about trick questions, or semantics, it is about clear, easy communication of fundamentals of a game.
agree, except the "game designers" in this forum cant even define the same things they are talking about unless they provide a subjective definition, which isnt the actual definition.
This is how i see what a game is it depends on what the developer focus on when making the game
WoW is indeed a PvE game because majority of what they work on is PvE with a smidge of PvP as an after thought
PvP would be they focus more on development for PvP side of thing like seiges and battle grounds and so on with limited PvE development time
PvX is kinda doing both at once equally interwining the 2 system make the PvX game better which seems to be what AopC doing
ok. If those are instances which do not allow PvP then is a PvX game.
Can a corrupt player clean his corruption fighting NPCs there? Would make no sense to be possible (as game mechanic, not lore) but I am curious.
As Dolyem pointed out, your definition of pvx is not the same as Steven's. But no, I doubt red players will be able to enter instances, because those would probably require npc interactions and reds can't do that.
Steven is not the reference in everything. He cannot create new meaning to commonly used words by people on the planet. Thanks for pointing out Dolyem post. We posted at same time and I would have missed it.
is PvX only if I can do Monday, Wednesday and Friday only PvE, without any risk of PvP.
Fighting NPCs having to look constantly around if anyone comes to take my resources makes it a PvP game.
I'm not entirely sure you even read what I wrote.
The title of your thread is "AOC is NOT a PVP game"
I checked your post and it does not contain the conditions to make it a PvX game.
I skipped the part where you said "I played Wayfinder ..."
Which part specifically explains that is PvX and not PvP?
I told you what I expect: to be able to have PvP sessions and PvE sessions.
Will the player be able to have PvE without any risk of being interrupted by PvP somewhere?
PvX requires you to participate in both PvP and PvE to progress. Not one or the other, both. So naturally, when fighting mobs in the wild, you will be required to look over your shoulder and be weary of other players.
There was a discussion not long ago talking about how practically all "PvP" MMORPGs are really just PvX, where PvP would have either no PvE or not require PvE at all.
That is what I call a PvP game or a PvP game experience. But not a good one considering the corruption and loot mechanics. Steven tries to attract PvE players to his game but he will be surprised to see that his trick will not work. Players who like PvE will stay with PvE games even if they want PvP sometime. And players who want PvE sometime will find themselves doing it by force if they become corrupt or will be forced to do objective PvP only when playing on land. True PvP-ers will be forced to go into the ocean where they have no nodes.
wow is the same. you can just do battlegrounds and arena and ignore pve completely, or do dungeons and raids and ignore pvp completely. and of course, you can do both. but wow is basically 2 different games accessed using the same client and interface.
The point isn't about trick questions, or semantics, it is about clear, easy communication of fundamentals of a game.
agree, except the "game designers" in this forum cant even define the same things they are talking about unless they provide a subjective definition, which isnt the actual definition.
Sometimes, logic needs to prevail.
In this case, if people are talking about a PvP MMORPG as a general term, then literally everyone on these forums should understand that any MMORPG in which it is possible to attack another player in the open world fits in to this definition.
Those people that define things are only compelled to do so because people refuse to let that basic logic prevail. Thus, if we want to point to people and say "stop that thing you are doing", it shouldn't be those that feel compelled to define what they are talking about, it should be those refusing to apply basic logic and thus compelling others to make those definitions.
If I were explaining WoW to someone that had played MMO's before but didn't know anything about WoW, I would say that the PvP servers act as a PvP game, but the PvE servers play as if it is a PvE game.
While one could get in to semantic arguments with that, a person with some MMORPG experience would have a basic understanding of what gameplay to expect.
Obviously there is deeper discussion that could be undertaken, but the base terms of "PvE" and "PvP" are a starting point for that discussion, if it were to happen.
I would only describe WoW as a PVP game during the beginning when there was actually open world PVP. There is Warmode now but honestly, if they knew WoW Warmode and you compared that to AoC, they would probably have a bad taste in their mouth and not want to play. Just killing and camping. I like PVP but open World WoW has never appealed to me minus the first few years.
Obviously you are very much allowed to disagree with me but I think if you explain this game to someone and you label it as a PVP game then you are doing it a disservice.
Obviously you are very much allowed to disagree with me but I think if you explain this game to someone and you label it as a PVP game then you are doing it a disservice.
If you are talking to a general gamer and called Ashes a PvP game, sure.
If you are talking within the confines of an MMORPG, then not so much.
Main Point is this, stop focusing on if this game is PVP or PVE, they operate together to achieve a larger goal from a Man who made a world as a Dungeon Master and wants to see that world live.
Designating a game as either PvP or PvE is a way for people to communicate the play type they can expect to get from the game.
As such, stating that a game is one or the other is perfectly valid.
Now, one could argue that every game that contains both PvP and PvE is in fact PvX. Thus, EQ2, WoW, Rift, L2, Archeage, Crowfall, BDO and Crowfall are all PvX. So is Ashes, by that standard.
However, with the above list of games, it seems fairly obvious that you could place them on a scale of more PvP all the way over to more PvE. As such, it is perfectly valid to place games on that scale and label those at the PvE end as being PvE games, and those at the PvP end as being PvP games.
If you just say the game is "PvX", literally no one on the planet can resolve that in to a valid expectation. If you say a game is a PvE MMO, most MMO players would have an understanding of what that means. If you say it is a PvP MMO, most MMO players would have an understanding of what that means.[/i]
If you are describing specific elements sure. If you said Ashes was a PVP game then that wouldn't really explain anything at all. This is not a binary thing.
I don't think you could argue and have many agree that having any PVE and PVP would make it a PVX game. I am certainly not saying you can't label those games. Minus Ashes,Lineage,Arche Age and UO. The experience you have in Ashes will be far different then anything else you've played unless you've played those games.
The only reason people wouldn't understand what PvX is would be if they were unfamiliar with the term, a brief explanation would cover that. If you told someone that Ashes was a PVP game you would be wrong, just as much as if you told someone WOW was a PVP game because it had Arenas and BGs. The penalty is MASSIVE for corruption. Everything will be OPT in outside of it.
that sounds like a dong swinging contest with a lot of work
ill stick to pve, i dont feel the need to prove my dong is bigger than anyone elses because i already know it is, etc etc
haha
pve good
anyways hopefully i can place bets on which dong swingers will win fights somehow, i would like to turn the pvpers into animalian behavers that create entertainment for the masses via a colosseum, sort of like modern day football players or people trapped inside a human sized aquarium for alien entertainment…maybe the pvpers could make teams and then we pvers could have “fantasy pvp” in game where we all choose our favorite pvpers and decide who will win while the pvpers act uncivilized and go animal-kingdom on eachother
OP gonna realize a large swarth of the forum goers reject others reality and substitute it with their own.
Good luck bud, people are going to try to forum pvp with you because they think they're smarter and superior.
I don't think it's a "large" swarth but, it certainly is a very vocal one.
Maybe so, but I'll agree with you and push it further, they're Sirens, Aprostates, and the Cult Leader all in their one man caverns somewhere in a single player fantasy world.
OP gonna realize a large swarth of the forum goers reject others reality and substitute it with their own.
Good luck bud, people are going to try to forum pvp with you because they think they're smarter and superior.
I don't think it's a "large" swarth but, it certainly is a very vocal one.
Maybe so, but I'll agree with you and push it further, they're Sirens, Aprostates, and the Cult Leader all in their one man caverns somewhere in a single player fantasy world.
The thing is, i love their screams, i love to see their struggle, the more ludicrous the better, they really do try their very best.
It's forced owpvp all the way down. You're gathering? You might get attacked. You want to farm mobs? You'll be attacked. You're attacking other players? You'll definitely be attacked.
If you are describing specific elements sure. If you said Ashes was a PVP game then that wouldn't really explain anything at all. This is not a binary thing.
Calling Ashes a PvP game would do a better job of describing it than calling it a PvE game, and calling it a PvX game means nothing.
This is perhaps the key point to me. PvX is meaningless - it is a marketing term designed to not turn people away from the game. It doesn't actually describe anything.
PvE describes a game where you can expect to not be attacked by other players, at least not unexpectedly.
PvP describes a game where you can expect to be attacked by other players.
Sure, calling Ashes PvP doesn't describe the game in detail, but it is the start of that description. None of the other terms can be considered the start of such a description.
OP gonna realize a large swarth of the forum goers reject others reality and substitute it with their own.
Good luck bud, people are going to try to forum pvp with you because they think they're smarter and superior.
I don't think it's a "large" swarth but, it certainly is a very vocal one.
Maybe so, but I'll agree with you and push it further, they're Sirens, Aprostates, and the Cult Leader all in their one man caverns somewhere in a single player fantasy world.
I mean, this sounds like you are talking about BG3 - the last time I had as much fun as that game is offering right now was back in 2004.
It's forced owpvp all the way down. You're gathering? You might get attacked. You want to farm mobs? You'll be attacked. You're attacking other players? You'll definitely be attacked.
Attacked yes but killed only if you like PvP and you flag up.
Attacked yes but killed only if you like PvP and you flag up.
If you're in a guild - quite likely killed. If you're in a strong node - quite likely killed. If you're farming mobs - killed by mobs that the pvper will bring to you. If you're gathering some super valuable resources - quite likely PKed for them.
People will always find a way to kill others to have a higher chance at getting good loot.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
More importantly, WoW has both PvP servers and PvE-Only servers.
WoW PvP servers are PvX. PvX means that PvPers will have to do some PvE.
Ashes only has one server type. It's a PvP server. PvPers will have to do some PvE.
At least, based on what PvX originally meant.
Steven seems to be using PvX to mean that instead of a reciprocal relationship between PvP and PvE, Ashes has a symbiotic relationship between PvP and PvE.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Steven tries to attract PvE players to his game but he will be surprised to see that his trick will not work. Players who like PvE will stay with PvE games even if they want PvP sometime. And players who want PvE sometime will find themselves doing it by force if they become corrupt or will be forced to do objective PvP only when playing on land.
True PvP-ers will be forced to go into the ocean where they have no nodes.
Prior to 2022, when Steven was not acting as Lead Game Designer, Steven and the former EQ/EQ who were Ashes Lead devs pitched a game that was more conducive to PvE players who like PvP sometimes.
About a year ago, it became clearer that Steven is mostly catering to Lineage II players.
I think Lineage II players would say that Lineage II has a lot of PvE players.
I also think Lineage II PvPers consider themselves to be "true PvPers".
Attacked yes but killed only if you like PvP and you flag up.
If you're in a guild - quite likely killed. If you're in a strong node - quite likely killed. If you're farming mobs - killed by mobs that the pvper will bring to you. If you're gathering some super valuable resources - quite likely PKed for them.
People will always find a way to kill others to have a higher chance at getting good loot.
So I should understand that average players will not be killed?
Only those who want the best gear and best drops?
I'll join an RP guild on an RP server ^^
I might end up their top PvPer as I have no RP skills in RL. But I like to watch them doing their stuff.
So I should understand that average players will not be killed?
Only those who want the best gear and best drops?
If by "normal" you mean people with no ambition at all and someone who's got 1-2h a week to play - yes, the chance of them being killed would be super low. I'm not sure if Ashes will hold such people's attention though.
I'll join an RP guild on an RP server ^^
I might end up their top PvPer as I have no RP skills in RL. But I like to watch them doing their stuff.
As soon as there's a community chosen RP server, there's gonna be at least one guild of people who'll be willing to fuck everyone over. At which point Steven would have to set some fairly particular rules as to what constitutes griefing in the game, cause I'm sure those PKers will find a way to justify their killings within the game's design.
So I should understand that average players will not be killed?
Only those who want the best gear and best drops?
If by "normal" you mean people with no ambition at all and someone who's got 1-2h a week to play - yes, the chance of them being killed would be super low. I'm not sure if Ashes will hold such people's attention though.
The 'normal' word should be taken in the context of AoC only, after the game was balanced as Steven wants and after players who want more PvP or less PvP left. Those which remain, some will strive to have top gear or be the best crafters, some will just maximize their enjoyment in other ways.
So all boils down to how harsh the corruption will be.
Those with 1-2 h / week will not pay subscription. They can play something else.
The 'normal' word should be taken in the context of AoC only, after the game was balanced as Steven wants and after players who want more PvP or less PvP left. Those which remain, some will strive to have top gear or be the best crafters, some will just maximize their enjoyment in other ways.
Then those normal players will most likely be in guilds and in higher-tiered nodes. Both of which will have wars. So those normal players will be forced to pvp, otherwise they won't be a part of a bigger group that gets to enjoy benefits of being in a group.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Social Orgs, Religions, Naval Content, Racial Progression, Castles, Metros - lots of other stuff to be focused on besides top gear and being the best Crafter, but...
Most of those will include PvP.
A bunch of that stuff will be PvP where Corruption is not a factor.
I'll join an RP guild on an RP server ^^
I might end up their top PvPer as I have no RP skills in RL. But I like to watch them doing their stuff.
As soon as there's a community chosen RP server, there's gonna be at least one guild of people who'll be willing to fuck everyone over. At which point Steven would have to set some fairly particular rules as to what constitutes griefing in the game, cause I'm sure those PKers will find a way to justify their killings within the game's design.
How many players / servers do you think AoC should have, 6-12 months after release? What number should Steven aim to get?
Comments
agree, except the "game designers" in this forum cant even define the same things they are talking about unless they provide a subjective definition, which isnt the actual definition.
This is how i see what a game is it depends on what the developer focus on when making the game
WoW is indeed a PvE game because majority of what they work on is PvE with a smidge of PvP as an after thought
PvP would be they focus more on development for PvP side of thing like seiges and battle grounds and so on with limited PvE development time
PvX is kinda doing both at once equally interwining the 2 system make the PvX game better which seems to be what AopC doing
PvE cause majority of development is on the PvE side probaly 95% PvE to 5% PvP development
Steven is not the reference in everything. He cannot create new meaning to commonly used words by people on the planet. Thanks for pointing out Dolyem post. We posted at same time and I would have missed it.
That is what I call a PvP game or a PvP game experience. But not a good one considering the corruption and loot mechanics. Steven tries to attract PvE players to his game but he will be surprised to see that his trick will not work. Players who like PvE will stay with PvE games even if they want PvP sometime. And players who want PvE sometime will find themselves doing it by force if they become corrupt or will be forced to do objective PvP only when playing on land. True PvP-ers will be forced to go into the ocean where they have no nodes.
Sometimes, logic needs to prevail.
In this case, if people are talking about a PvP MMORPG as a general term, then literally everyone on these forums should understand that any MMORPG in which it is possible to attack another player in the open world fits in to this definition.
Those people that define things are only compelled to do so because people refuse to let that basic logic prevail. Thus, if we want to point to people and say "stop that thing you are doing", it shouldn't be those that feel compelled to define what they are talking about, it should be those refusing to apply basic logic and thus compelling others to make those definitions.
I would only describe WoW as a PVP game during the beginning when there was actually open world PVP. There is Warmode now but honestly, if they knew WoW Warmode and you compared that to AoC, they would probably have a bad taste in their mouth and not want to play. Just killing and camping. I like PVP but open World WoW has never appealed to me minus the first few years.
Obviously you are very much allowed to disagree with me but I think if you explain this game to someone and you label it as a PVP game then you are doing it a disservice.
If you are talking within the confines of an MMORPG, then not so much.
If you are describing specific elements sure. If you said Ashes was a PVP game then that wouldn't really explain anything at all. This is not a binary thing.
I don't think you could argue and have many agree that having any PVE and PVP would make it a PVX game. I am certainly not saying you can't label those games. Minus Ashes,Lineage,Arche Age and UO. The experience you have in Ashes will be far different then anything else you've played unless you've played those games.
The only reason people wouldn't understand what PvX is would be if they were unfamiliar with the term, a brief explanation would cover that. If you told someone that Ashes was a PVP game you would be wrong, just as much as if you told someone WOW was a PVP game because it had Arenas and BGs. The penalty is MASSIVE for corruption. Everything will be OPT in outside of it.
So there will be no open world PvP?
that sounds like a dong swinging contest with a lot of work
ill stick to pve, i dont feel the need to prove my dong is bigger than anyone elses because i already know it is, etc etc
haha
pve good
anyways hopefully i can place bets on which dong swingers will win fights somehow, i would like to turn the pvpers into animalian behavers that create entertainment for the masses via a colosseum, sort of like modern day football players or people trapped inside a human sized aquarium for alien entertainment…maybe the pvpers could make teams and then we pvers could have “fantasy pvp” in game where we all choose our favorite pvpers and decide who will win while the pvpers act uncivilized and go animal-kingdom on eachother
Good luck bud, people are going to try to forum pvp with you because they think they're smarter and superior.
I don't think it's a "large" swarth but, it certainly is a very vocal one.
Aren't we all sinners?
Maybe so, but I'll agree with you and push it further, they're Sirens, Aprostates, and the Cult Leader all in their one man caverns somewhere in a single player fantasy world.
The thing is, i love their screams, i love to see their struggle, the more ludicrous the better, they really do try their very best.
Aren't we all sinners?
This is perhaps the key point to me. PvX is meaningless - it is a marketing term designed to not turn people away from the game. It doesn't actually describe anything.
PvE describes a game where you can expect to not be attacked by other players, at least not unexpectedly.
PvP describes a game where you can expect to be attacked by other players.
Sure, calling Ashes PvP doesn't describe the game in detail, but it is the start of that description. None of the other terms can be considered the start of such a description.
forum pvp? nice
in game pvp? i sleep
I mean, this sounds like you are talking about BG3 - the last time I had as much fun as that game is offering right now was back in 2004.
Sadly, it won't last as long as an MMORPG.
Attacked yes but killed only if you like PvP and you flag up.
People will always find a way to kill others to have a higher chance at getting good loot.
WoW PvP servers are PvX. PvX means that PvPers will have to do some PvE.
Ashes only has one server type. It's a PvP server. PvPers will have to do some PvE.
At least, based on what PvX originally meant.
Steven seems to be using PvX to mean that instead of a reciprocal relationship between PvP and PvE, Ashes has a symbiotic relationship between PvP and PvE.
About a year ago, it became clearer that Steven is mostly catering to Lineage II players.
I think Lineage II players would say that Lineage II has a lot of PvE players.
I also think Lineage II PvPers consider themselves to be "true PvPers".
So I should understand that average players will not be killed?
Only those who want the best gear and best drops?
I'll join an RP guild on an RP server ^^
I might end up their top PvPer as I have no RP skills in RL. But I like to watch them doing their stuff.
As soon as there's a community chosen RP server, there's gonna be at least one guild of people who'll be willing to fuck everyone over. At which point Steven would have to set some fairly particular rules as to what constitutes griefing in the game, cause I'm sure those PKers will find a way to justify their killings within the game's design.
The 'normal' word should be taken in the context of AoC only, after the game was balanced as Steven wants and after players who want more PvP or less PvP left. Those which remain, some will strive to have top gear or be the best crafters, some will just maximize their enjoyment in other ways.
So all boils down to how harsh the corruption will be.
Those with 1-2 h / week will not pay subscription. They can play something else.
Most of those will include PvP.
A bunch of that stuff will be PvP where Corruption is not a factor.
How many players / servers do you think AoC should have, 6-12 months after release? What number should Steven aim to get?