Auto-Attacks: Not a fan, I mean it can be nice at times if Im feeling lazy but thats usually because Im doing a report or something where majority of my attention isnt in game. Much of what Ive read and seen I enjoy.
I typically enjoy the constant battle of changing up attacks and strategy, trying to win over your opponent, I know this is difficult to do in MMOs especially with tab targeting and when it is done correctly people complain because its not easy enough. Spamming attacks is one of the most boring game plays, no clue why people enjoy it so much. Anyways using time mechanics to make a good combo with skills and basic attacks adjusting the time and combo due to the visual or mechanic of the skill or basic attack seems entertaining. To me this would allow for the skill based game play that seems to be a core function of the game. Also reduce animation canceling as well as some controller types for a one click (cant think of the term) major attack every time. Also enjoy parries, deflection, reflection moves but not as a constant or if so drains some aspect reduces an aspect, something that makes players think especially in a pvp scenario.
Just got an idea how to connect basic attacks for warriors. Imagine a spell that has condition to activate only if you connect 2-3 basic attacks or if player block your basic attack with shield.
...or maybe a situation where using spell can actually harm you. Like a spell reflect or return damage spell. You would be forced to use basic attack.
I am basing this all on few Warrior spells from WoW Cataclysm like Overpower-Instantly overpower the enemy, causing weapon damage. Only useable after the target dodges. <-Replace this with ''after the target is hit by basic attack''
So spells with conditions would make basic attacks included into rotation and be connected with spell use.
Think is, you have to make basic attack look interesting though. That's why I mentioned combat arts present in games like Sekiro in my previous comment.
I played Elder Scrolls Online for 7 years and close to 6000 hours, I know the combat system is quite controversial but I absolutely love the mechanics of it and it made it hard for me to play other MMOs.
The basic attacks are extremely prevalent in the rotation, weaving them in between abilities is absolutely crucial to perform a good rotation, and there is a massive gap in dps between people who can do it consistently and those who can't. As a result the rotations are usually quite high APM, and because of it, I couldn't get into FFXIV, that felt painfully slow in comparison.
I like mechanically challenging rotations that require coordination and practice. I don't think it should be the standard, but I hope it can be possible to build toward that, I feel like melee dps classes at least, should have basic attacks be important to their rotation, and have the option to reinforce their efficiency through their build choices.
Basic attacks can provide damage, but also contribute to stacking effects/buff for the player or debuffs for the target.
Basic attacks are an ability , and i dont think there should be useless abilities, they should play a significant role, although the relation can and should be different from class to class, that can range from that some class might just use them less or as filler, or that for some class mainly rely on them and abilities enhance or mutate basic attacks or trigger effects/spells/additional effects when hit someone affected by something
I don't like manual attacking in MMOs.
The auto attack to me is what pits your gear against others, and is your only constant form of DPS that isn't reliant on another resource.
I feel like button mashing the same attack key to keep up damage isn't fun at all, especially if it is a task that could be automated. I would rather focus that energy on pressing the 20 cool spells that I have at my disposal.
That being said, I don't think this has a parallel with spells, and I think it's because they have a cast time. If I have a really hard hitting spell I can spam every 2 seconds like shadowbolt in WoW, I don't mind that at all.
For my playstyle, I only really enjoy using basic attacks in the times where you are baiting a certain attack, conserving resources, or waiting for your cooldowns to come up. As a result of that I prefer combat that is mostly centered around abilities for the majority of your damage (90%+). However, I find the idea of using a certain number of basic attacks to enhance your next ability cast interesting and look forward to seeing how that will play out. As long as it doesn't turn out as tedious as light/heavy attack weaving in ESO then it will hopefully go well. That being said, I find using basic/heavy attacks as a combo after an ability to proc a certain CC status such as stun, knockdown, etc. like in ESO to be very fun and offers players a nice chance to express their skill when knowing how such combos work. Ideally there is a good balance between specs where basic attacks are more important to how much DPS you do, and specs that don't really interact with the basic attack system except occasionally for some mechanics DPS wise. Whether it is an auto-attack or a basic attack rotation game you'll see many people simply not play the game because they don't like that combat style. The more playstyles that the game offers that perform well both mechanically and gameplay-wise the more people the game will attract and hopefully retain which only helps all of us in the end.
In regards to auto attack feel, and what I personally enjoy having a good feeling auto attack string can feel nice outside of ability rotations. I really don't think auto attacks should be very miniscule damage in comparison to abilities. The auto attacks need to feel good, impactful, not just some dinky little smack you give every now and then like in FF14, for example.
I'd like the possibility of specing into auto attacks, perhaps. Choosing augments that enhance them and make them worthwhile. A rogue's flashy dagger autos for example, specing them to proc bleed, or make them even faster, etc. There's lots of ways surely to go about all of that, depends on how creative you want to get.
But I think that just because this game has a hybrid combat system doesn't mean the skills, and autos should be slow or clunky, not reminding us of much older MMOs. Skill targets on the ground, manual aiming, and auto lock skills coupled with basic attacks can still feel flashy and fast, even with tab targeting. FF14 has great skill weaving yet it's autos are just...autos. They have no impact, no worth compared to skill spam. I would like to be able to live out the possible character fantasy of a speedy sword wielder that has very fast rapid attacks. So for this example he would need to have very good, flashy autos. Autos that down the line could function like Black Desert's, for example. Directional input and auto attack gives you different autos, a side stepping auto, or backstepping slash with a roll if you press S and left click, etc.
Overall I think autos should feel good, fast, fluid, and impactful. A good source of dps inbetween everything that doesn't feel useless. So I think basic attacks should matter, it feels a lot more involved if I have to not only focus on spamming 1-9. Maybe auto attacks also function where after a certain skill, you get an enhanced auto attack that does twice the damage, or does a whole new animation. So it warrants weaving in autos with your skills.
I just don't want to be spamming one skill, or only pressing 1-9 and just standing there, if that makes sense. All of this is just me explaining how I enjoy action combat, and with the action combat camera toggle I think this game could scratch my itch for fluid, reactive combat really nicely.
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TeylouneMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2023
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
The MMORPGs I've enjoyed the most were often more ability-focused. Depending on the class, especially ranged caster-type classes, it was helpful to weave basic attacks in between abilities to do additional damage. This was often entirely optional and mostly done by more advanced players. However, if you had a group of advanced players, this would be quite noticeable in how quickly you would progress through dungeons and raids.
I personally really liked weaving in basic attacks as a healer in between abilities. When abilities are on cooldown or I am not pressured to heal, it felt like I was contributing more to the combat than your average healer who did not do that.
In those games, melee classes would, instead of weaving in attacks between abilities, use their basic attacks to power up their next ability. It's like filling a rage or resource meter of sorts. For example, you do a melee attack, gain X rage, and when you use an ability, you consume a certain amount of rage to gain an additional effect or damage for the ability use.
The difference between how various classes would handle this approach made playing more than one class not only interesting but also fun because the dynamic would change, giving the player a different experience.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
I feel that the role and importance of using a basic attack should change based on what type of class you are.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I want this to be different based on if I am a Martial Class Type or an Arcane Class Type.
To me, it makes sense for Basic Attacks to have more value to Martial Type Classes as they are about Martial Prowess, while an Arcane Type Class, which might have valued more the study of spells, would be all about using their Abilities and using their basic attacks to keep doing damage while their abilities are either on cooldown or they are waiting for the right moment to use their ability, maybe situationally.
When both these options are available to players, this should ideally result in players, even if they are on opposite ends of this discussion, finding a class or archetype that fits their preferred way of play.
Additional Thoughts:
I like a system that makes it easy for new players to pick up and get into the game without overwhelming them, but also allows for more advanced players to get that extra power out of it by weaving their basic attacks in between their abilities where appropriate.
I think Intrepid needs to keep this on mind. Basic attacks need extra functions, in which it makes sense to NOT use a skill, but instead use basic attacks.
And if the game ends up gravitating towards tab, basic attacks need consistency in terms of dmg as well as being auto-attacks without the need to spam the button.
Bad example of basic attacks:
Eso easy animation cancelling (terrible visuals). Auto attacks just added dps. Also, because in ESO gear did the combat for you instead of boosting your stats, auto attacks procced effortlessly a lot of extra dmg.
Big winners: ranged weapons.
Good example of basic attacks:
Tera Online. Dont remember much of the other classes but the warrior in tera online gained MP from basic attacks.
Also, when certain abilities were cast (by any class) and the warrior would hit them with basic attacks, the abilities were interrupted.
It was an interesting trade off. Instead of dealing dmg with abilities you could use your basic attacks to gain mp or interrupted a strong incoming dmg.
The dangers of using basic attacks was that you could be parried and put on a stunned state.
Overall interesting design.
I also like L2s approach of basic attacks.
Some players can mush buttons 24/7 others dont find it appealing, especially of the mmo has meaningful lv up duration (grind mobs).
In L2 the basic attacks were trully auto-attacks. Select a target hit atk or left click and your character would attack.
Due to the importance of supports (buffers) in L2, basic attacks were the main source of dmg in PvE whilst mp and skills were reserved for dangerous situations and PvP. It's the best scenario for a tab combat mmo.
Also, not a fan of mindless, set rotations. I am all for skill chains, but that requires 20+ skills like Tera Online, but skill rotations like in ESO are boring.
Give us skills with cooldowns and various mp costs and let the scenario demand ppl to think what skill is more suitable.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
The ones I have most experience with are from WoW and GW2. In WoW the auto-attack function like a filler between abilities, while being a fairly big portion of the damage. There are also a lot of abilities that add an effect to the auto-attacks. This works well because of the amount of abilities in the game.
In GW2 you have less abilities, but your basic attack has three 'stages'. These can also be automated. The basic attack becomes more 'meaningful' in a small toolkit, but this feels more like a necessity in the design rather than something that was added to make the game more fun.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
The worst thing is having to spam 1 button a lot. Especially if that's all you need to kill enemies (hi new world). The more auto-attacks/basic attack spam can replace interactive combat, they will and combat will start feeling boring really fast.
I think WoW nailed it the first time (minus the melee range leeway, we don't need that anymore). But it just works. Have basic attacks as auto-attack, but you need abilities to actually kill something. Either by increasing damage on auto-attacks (increased speed, damage effects, next auto-attack crits etc) or, preferably using abilities. Mobs should be strong enough (or have enough control) to force the player to use abilities.
If I had to choose, I'd rather have no auto-attacks/basic attack at all than the basic attack being something you just spam a lot of the time.
Just to clarify, I don't want a copy of WoW combat. I just think its a great base to work from.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I want management of ability cooldowns and resources to determine my performance. For a middleground, because I do see a reason for auto-attacks to be important in the rotation (accessibility for new players) , there could be a way to make it so that auto-attacking does fair damage. By certain augments for example. However I don't think they should ever trump damage from someone carefully picking/timing their abilities.
This 100%.
And to add on to that, basic attacks if made important or valuable at all, then people feel like they have to learn to weave basic attacks in between abilities in order to maximize dps which is a stupid way to play. ESO is the worst offender of course, but it's just not a fun way to play.
TERA I seem to remember did the idea of a basic attack better. It wasn't valuable DPS so nobody tried to weave it for that, but it had other uses. For some classes it regenerated their mana (even phys dps). For some classes it also allowed them to stagger. But it wasn't spammed, it was used occasionally for thoughtful uses.
Also from a functional standpoint - nobody wants to spam whatever key their attack is bound to. I'd like to see something where if we press our basic attack button and it keeps on doing the attack or combo until we use another skill. So we still have to press it to start it, but we don't have to spam.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
They usually dont play much of a role in most modern mmo’s. Only when the basic attack is a actual mouse click like shooting a gun ie swinging the sword per click and blocking with the other mouse button. In the latter case it is a essential tool.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Assumed guarantee of a steady dps when not in ability rotations. If we are going to go for a more involved click to manually swing or draw a bow then id hope we get chance to parry and block for stamina deduction.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
As said no to auto-attacks being primary unless we get a more involved version of attacking and defending like in games such as For Honor, Mordhau or Chivalry. Otherwise its just something that happens to guarantee your not just a statue taking hits when you go oom of stamina or mana. It also is very bland and boring. So since i do not know of a system in aoc that does this i will say abilities mostly.
How can you make auto-attacks flavored and not bland without overlapping abilities.
The possibility to have skills that modify basic attack stats such as speed, crit, etc. playing a paladin in wow classic made me realize how dreadful auto attacks are even with a attack power and weapon buff. You should just have base stats play into basic auto attack function. So if someone has high crit chance they often crit. If they have speed via strength and or agility to swing a blade quicker then the auto attack speeds up. You should also make it so basic attack has style depending on class combination, stats and weapon used. Ie a way a tank might hold a two hand sword might be different then a non tank who may be dps. Samurais in history used no shield and created their own unique fighting style that was defensive and offensive at a higher agility and speed. Nothing needs to be always i am a tank i need a shield and heavy armor to tank look at my strength level. The zweihander in history is another example of a offensively defensive weapon that would fit a tank without a shield. Its essentially a heavy parry weapon instead of blocking with a shield while having a enormous girth to hit foes almost like a spear while keeping foes at a distance. It used its huge size often on average about 5 feet in length and hefty weight to essentially batter the foes to death to keep them at a distance yet heavy enough to strike killing blows. You could make the two hand swords handle differently based off stats and or any other weapons. It does not need to be a role specific play style weapon like a zweihander tank only. Just the class combination and weapon/stats dictates the style of combat via auto and/or basic attacks. It does more then just allow different weapon types of even the same variant like said swords to be used it makes the use practical and meaningful when you use and see it being used.It can spread out the players choice of playstyles to choose from beyond class combinations. a tank variant would have a naturally higher parry/tankability with said two hands then a dps variant would. But the dps would get higher dps with less parry chance. The natural abilities of said class/class combo would stack the basic class role functions ontop of this. So technically you could be a tank who plays like a samurai with a quicker two hand who might be more interested in a playstyle of running through enemies quickly for mobility with a higher then normal parry chance compared to a dps class with said samurai like blade. Alternatively you could have the tank using a zweihander type weapon/blade that he swings about ferociously to keep enemies more at bay as he slowly dwindles down the health. If someone uses magic against them the blade could deflect like a lightsaber because of size instead of blocking/absorbing like a shield. Deflect does not need to mean deflect back but simply deflect. The stats you choose further embed the playstyle and weapon choice more meaningful. The samurai type blade could be heavier on using the agility type stat to increase effectiveness of the parry and or speed and strength can increase damage. Im assuming in event speed is not its own stat you can get on gear or otherwise. Basic attacks could be a filler to fill the role for its use IE the samurai blades basic is a quick damaging parry to avoid damage while moving/advancing could use stamina so its not spammy. The abnormally large 2 hander like the zweihander might have a slower charged basic of swinging around and pushing enemies back and or with a chance of knocking some down.
Basic attacks are an ability with essentially no cooldown and no resource cost yeah? Chuck em in the class kit as a viable skill and people can make a choice to include in a limited slot.
Similar to healer showcase, basic abilities could have a channeled form which basically amounts to auto attack, or single press that can be woven around other abilities.
For some weapon/ archetype it might make sense to trade even lower damage for another source of utility Eg recover class resource, minor heal ally, improve attack, block or dodge for x seconds, reduce cooldowns, buff allies, absorb damage from allies, buff enemies, reduce threat... etc
There need to be a reason to auto attack, usualy there dmg is negatable compared to skill so they kinda feel useless.
Now if you basic attack contributed to something in the kit itself you going somewhere.
Some ways of doing this is
- Weapon procs (EQ/WoW chance on hit effect)
- Regain mana (WoW paladin blessing of wisdom for example here)
- reduces cooldown of a certain ability when attacking (Senna for example reducing Q cooldown by 1 second per AA)
- On hit effects basic attacks does x effect usualy extra dmg or movement speed (league of legend uses this on items)
- Applies effect based on conditions (Your mage passive seems to do this where ur attacks do something based on last element of spell you used if i remember correctly)
These can either be part of a choice in class skill kits or weapon/armour and so on.
Game with the best basic attack system I've ever played is Outward.
Basic attacks are the difference between a LMB + RMB + 1 and your character shooting lightning in a line and a LMB + LMB + and your character cleaving enemies.
There's just so much more use that basic attacks could see in a game and often times they're not there.
They're so under utilized in making an interesting combat system.
ESO has an example of shitty basic attacks, but if you roll a sorcerer and you use the Overload ultimate then that enhanced attack takes a whole new meaning - happens to be my favorite ultimate in the game because it can take something so bland and boring - add a toggle or a trigger proc and now you have something interesting.
As a general concept, I feel like basic attacks should be an option to work in depending on the class and other tricks. Grim Dawn does this well, I think. There were some skills that were basic attacks and some passives from the tree and from items that proced off of basic attacks. I built a basic attack soldier with a twin guns focusing entirely on the passive tree. I did something similar in Hellgate: London.
While I recognize those are ARPGs and this is an MMORPG, the concept carries, I think.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
'basic attacks' are rarely a thing in most mmos I've played, but I guess it depends how you define them. Usually what I consider to be 'basic' are a low cost skill with no requirements and continually spammable. The first part of your combo in Final Fantasy XIV, for example. Except you don't want to spam this - usually it's just the starting point for the rest of your skills.
Auto-attacks, on the other hand, are a little more useful. They are passive damage for when I've fat fingered something or had a brain fart. Or if I'm waiting on cooldowns and have nothing better to be doing.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Pretty much what I already wrote above. The way the weapon talents were explained I'd like basic attacks to be an option depending on what I need to be doing.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
The fact that this was asked in this way creates an assumption of rotation-first gameplay, which I'm concerned about. While it's true that any set of skills will come down to a rotation, it shouldn't be the focus of skill design. This was the thing that lead to Final Fantasy XIV becoming more and more 'samish' because the devs started to tweak skills to match the rotation of the other classes and streamlined everything, which meant that if one player messed up their rotation everyone suffered and the rotations became pretty much mandatory. (Ninja, my class, HAS to use Mug on cooldown because if you do it late everyone else is bursting without that boost and heaven forbid you mess up your mudra and have the 'bunny of shame' on your head visually telegraphing what a bad Ninja you are.)
I would rather skills be synergistic in dynamic ways that lead to emergent gameplay - rather than a rote rotation.
Now that said, I see the weapon use combo as previously described as being a set up into my other skills. This will likely be similar in effect to FFIV, where my 'entry level low cost skill' sets up other combos. The difference being in FFIV the combo was mandatory to do in that order - wheras this is an 'add on'. I basic attack to inflict a status and then use a skill that benefits from that status. However depending on what the rest of my party is doing maybe there will be situatiosn where I can go straight to the skill instead of doing the set up.
I was reviewing the Weapon use combo system after showing it to a guildmate... and I think you need to be very clear between 'basic attack' and 'auto attack'.
Not many modern games use auto attack anymore, but the 'auto' means 'automatic'. If you are doing something to activate it (such as clicking the mouse) then it's not an auto-attack.
Auto-attacks are mostly holdovers from Telnet MUDs that were the ancestor to MMOs, and have largely gone by the wayside for modern games in favour of a spammable 'basic attack' skill that you use over and over again. It used to be that internet speeds didn't really allow for realtime gameplay so you'd type 'attack orc' and you'd start swinging at the orc automatically. But now that internet speeds are faster you can reasonably expect if you click three times you can get three attacks in at the real time.
If it requires user input - it's not an auto attack, and you should probably stop using the term unless that's what you mean.
I am not a fan of needing to manually mash the same attack key to just do basic attacks. Auto attacks are by far and away my preference. By auto I mean my character just swings their weapon at the selected target if they're in range. Spamming left click or whatever other key always limits the time I can spend playing before my hands start to ache too. It doesn't feel like more engaging gameplay either, since its literally a non-negotiable key-press.
Maybe some form of toggle-able auto-attack "type" would make more players happy. You could for example choose a heavier but slower style, and switch to a faster and weaker style. Something like this would allow for the quick finish when a target has only a sliver of HP left, which feels rewarding to snipe in a split second decision. It would also allow for something like enemy armor types being weaker to strong styles. Groups would have to coordinate which attack-style to use in a given moment for various situations. A raid would have to carefully assign styles for priority targets and so on.
I love MMO combat for the decision-making more than anything. I feel other game genres are better suited for my need for action combat (and I don't play them often...) I'm a lover of old school and strongly believe that its sorely missing in the space today.
But as a summary and more directly relating to the question to this dev discussion. Every class should have a "spammable ability". If that comes in the form of a basic attack then that's good--that doesn't mean that the spammable ability must be a basic attack. An example of this would be the cleric's "mend" ability. Just something to do during downtime outside of your rotation.
I don't think hybrid-combat can exist if tab target has auto-attacks automatically going off while they do their rotation. That would just make tab-target superior.
In conclusion: Basic attacks should be their own slot and every class should have a spammable ability to use on rotation CD. Weaving in basic attacks and spammable abilities is a use of skill expression.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Introduction
I feel the Auto-Attacks / Basic attacks present a unique opportunity for combat style and flavor. Other games have usually lumped all classes into the same pile for this one (ie. "The Game" has auto-attack, or it doesn't). I feel this is an opportunity for Ashes to explore something different as a class-style element for combat.
I'll begin by providing my personal views to answer the discussion questions, then provide some suggestions that I think would work great for the intrepid design narrative of "choices matter".
For the purpose of this post, I'll be differentiating "auto-Attacks" and "basic attacks" as two different things. Auto-Attacks being: click the target once, and attacks repeatedly occur at a rate determined by the weapon attack speed, without clicking anything else. Basic Attacks: An activated ability. But a simple one with little-to-no additional effects, little-to-no resource cost, and/or resource/secondary-resource generating potential.
Discussion Questions How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
My preferred role in MMOs is Healing. For a healer, I think Basic Attacks are a bad idea, but Auto-Attacks have a purpose.
I think Basic Attacks (activate-able, standard, non-special attacks) are a mistake for healers. We already have enough on our plate as it is with pre-casting heals, setting up ground-target effects, proactive HoTs or shields, reactive heals, defensive cooldown management. I don't think it's a good idea to introduce an activated basic attack. Offensive abilities absolutely have their place, but they should have a purpose. Basic attacks likely wouldn't get much use unless they had additional interactions with other abilities or class mechanics. Which by definition would arguably make them "not basic" in the first place.
On the other hand... Auto-Attacks have existed in lots of MMOs and Healers had access to them too. However, they were almost always an after-thought for this type of class. If the MMO offered it as an option, usually the Healers would rarely use it. Either because it did insignificant damage or because the game design of those specific MMOs required healers to sustain near-constant healing uptime in order to keep themselves and/or others alive. Meaning auto-attacks were either insignificant or impractical. I like the existence of auto-attacks in games. Heck, I'd even like it as an option for clerics. Some Class combinations of the Cleric archetype could go the route of interlacing damage through spells while others do it through Cleric-Empowered Melee abilities and auto-attacks. Melee-Clerics versus Caster-Clerics, so-to-speak. I don't know which I'd prefer, but I think it would be a good option to have to create nuance in Cleric gameplay (as the only healing archetype in the game, it would provide uniqueness between the options).
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
I go into this a bit more in-depth, below. The short answer is: I think it's a class flavor option and I can have fun with either. Caster DPS, for example, rarely values auto-attacking. But in some of the other games I've played, Auto-Attacks are meaningful contributors of damage, and the abilities you use are opportunistic, reactive to what's happening, or serve some kind of purpose (spending resource, repositioning, buffing auto-attacks with some benefit, etc.) I think it's fun to have both options and either can be enjoyed.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I've played games where auto-attacks exist, and others where they were replaced by Basic Attacks, essentially accomplishing the same purpose - but requiring a key press. Sometimes those games had these attack serve no role other than humble, baseline damage to supplement overall performance. Other games have used these attacks as resource generation tools, and others use basic attacks as predicates for a combo-rotation to "unlock" other abilities (1-2-3 combo).
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
I think the role of Autos/Basics can be leveraged to introduce meaningful differentiation in the flavor-elements of class gameplay. At the same time, I genuinely believe that combat can be made meaningful with either the inclusion or exclusion of auto-attacks/basic attacks. I've played and enjoyed combat in various other games through both systems. The claim I take particular issue with is that "damage happening automatically" is somehow a problem or "requires no skill". I don't think there's a problem with damage happening automatically, as long as optimal combat still requires intelligent and consistent gameplay, and at the end of the day - that's where I believe most people take issue with auto-attacks and the role they play in Damage output. To that end, I agree that a top-performer should not be able to simply put their well-itemized character in Auto-Attack mode and still accomplish anything meaningful. But, I don't see it as a lack-of-skill to have auto-attacks contribute meaningful damage if there's an intricate combination of abilities to use, buffs to manage, and rotations to execute in order to make those auto-attacks do good damage. At the end of the day, "skill" comes from using everything in a toolkit to achieve performance. And in that circumstance, the role of Auto-Attacks is imperative as the damage-output combat design of a specific class/weapon type.
However, I don't think this should be the only role of Auto-attacks. I think each class/weapon type can, and should, explore this question individually (explained in greater detail in my "Choices Matter" section, below).
But, in short. Auto-attacks could serve the role of building rage for a barbarian or warrior. A "basic" ability could generate Combo Points for an Assassin or Rogue, while auto-attacks provide a little low-but-consistent damage pressure. A "basic attack" could be needed for a tank to activate a 1-2-3 or 1-4-5 combo rotation of abilities based on whether they were trying to tank 1 mob versus a group of them. In any of these cases, these attacks play a meaningful role in HOW combat occurs, regardless of their specific impact which could range from minor to significant.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
As a healer I would say: It depends. How games balance Time-To-Death and Time-To-Heal essentially determines whether Healers really have the ability to do ANYTHING other than heal constantly. Personally I like games where kill-time is slightly longer so that Healers have time to be methodical and/or support with a little offensive ability use themselves. If that existed in Ashes, I think it would be a lot of fun to have the option of being a heavily-armored, Melee-focused front-line Healer that could provide low-but-not-insignificant damage support with a little extra auto-attack damage. However, that option has really only ever existed in one MMO before, and that was in Warhammer Age of Reckoning as Disciple of Khaine and Warrior-Priest. The system was okay, but the game had some functional limitations that made the experience suboptimal. My experience has mostly been that healers attacking from a range with a mind-numbingly simple DPS rotation (since their healing rotation is their primary role, the after-thought of DPS is usually not too challenging). So to bring it back to the question, I would "want" my melee rotation to include auto-attacks as an important piece. But I would want basic attacks to stay far away from a ranged-cleric DPS rotation.
Since Healer perspective is much less valuable in this circumstance, I'll also add that I stand by my previous (and, written below) statements that I would want both options available to me. Some DPS classes that require high-APM and constant ability activation, and others that are methodical, timed, and supplemented by auto-attacks.
"Choices Matter": Myrc's views on why Auto-Attacking Can Co-Exist with Non-Auto-Attacking
Here is the premises by which I identify this as an opportunity for Intrepid to deliver something unique:
1) Stylistically, different weapon types would benefit more from the "narrative" behind what an Auto attack is.
2) It is likely to be the case that some people respond that they like auto-attacks and others don't. Picking one lane potentially disappoints the other. Not a problem if there's a majority, but certainly an opportunity to disappoint neither.
I'll elaborate on these premises below.
Premise #1: Some weapons/classes make more sense than others to have auto-attacks / basic-attacks
If we consider a combat scenario where a class dual-wielding daggers is in combat. Surely some of their attacks will be spectacular flips, or ingeniously designed poisons, and those things should cost a secondary resource (like energy, or mana, or "action points", whichever). But these are also very small weapons and it really wouldn't take much energy at all to provide a quick poke at the enemy in between the recuperation needed for another lavish attack. To me, it makes sense for daggers to have an element of auto-attack to them because it would be rather believable for a character with daggers to mix-and-match a quick little poke in between their attacks.
On the flip side. A Greatsword or a giant hammer is not a lightweight contraption. Every motion by one of those weapons is going to take substantially more time, do considerably more damage, and would likely require much more energy than a dagger. Does it make sense that every 3 seconds a swing comes out auto-matically that a player could time with the execution of another ability to essentially over-lap two GIANT weapon swings at once? To me, that makes less sense from a style perspective. Of course, we suspend our belief in reality in the interest of fun gameplay all the time, and I've happily done this for dozens of games in the past. It's not a problem that 2 handed weapons have auto-attacks. But from the narrative of what combat IS between two players, it certainly could make sense to have 2 handed weapons or "heavy one-handed weapons" provide no auto-attack. But instead, have a secondary-resource-free "basic" attack that people could do for modest damage to introduce some damage that doesn't cost anything while they manage their cooldowns and available resource pool.
Another benefit of this split is the acknowledgement of the impact on the Rock-Paper-Scissors element of combat advantages in PvP gameplay. Case-in-point, if Daggers and light-weight weapons had auto-attacks, and attacks provided some semblance of disruption to casting, it would be natural that the fast-attacking weapons would be more disruptive to casters (fitting with the established understanding that rogues tend to be more disruptive to healers, for example. Who might struggle to get casts off if a rogue is constantly berating them with fast attacks). Auto-Attacks provide additional rapidity of the attack flow for rogues in this circumstance. Similarly, 2 handed weapons may hit harder for more "bursty" damage, but they certainly shouldn't be a consistently disruptive to casting as spells could be laced between the slower and less consistent attack animations.
Premise #2: Pick both lanes instead of just one
If the player base is split on this, why not have both!? It could easily present meaningful flavor difference in how the classes play. (ie. "My main is an auto-attack-based melee Rogue. I really like auto-attacking so maybe my first alt will be an auto-attack based bow-using ranger. And then my second alt will be an Ability-based class, like a 2-Handed Fighter or a Mage".
The reality is, many games indirectly have this sort of dichotomy already. Casters rarely use their "auto-attack" features. Mages and Healers rarely pull out their staves for a little clobbering and achieve 99% of their combat efficacy through activated abilities only. The fact that they can auto-attack at all is a reflection of the system, and is an after-thought for those classes already. Why not provide it as a gameplay flavor that makes each weapon style feel genuinely unique. This would make for a meaningful gameplay choice when selecting smaller 1-handed weapons versus 2-handed weapons. A choice that isn't simply "do I want numbers to appears more often and be smaller, or less often and be bigger". Now it functionally changes the keys you're pressing and the timing of it.
An example of how this would fundamentally modify gameplay: If a 2-handed mace must click their "basic" ability for filler attacks to work around their cooldowns, they might click some hypothetical cooldown abilities to initiate their battle and then launch into an interlacing of basic attacks and resource-costing attacks in a sort of combo. Their key-pressing would likely be a rotation of sort, but the key-pressing would be near-constant while in combat as they attempt to constant;y activate the next ability as soon as they are able (around GCDs). Meanwhile, the auto-attacky weapons and classes would be more intentional about the timing of key presses. So rather than constantly pressing ability buttons, or spamming "1" for their basic attack, they would be waiting for the conditions of their next ability or cooldown to be met. This creates a gameplay style change and keeps both options in the game.
Conclusion
I love that Devs are seeking our input on this to integrate into their design philosophies. To me, choices being impactful has always been a mainstay of the Intrepid philosophy for Ashes of Creation, and I think it could provide extremely meaningful combat choice options to include auto-attacking. The fears of it being skill-less are archaic and based on old-games that had combat systems limited by technology. These days, using auto-attacks as a foundation for how a class feels and behaves, but making it weak without ability supplementation can make a class feel both responsive, and complex, even with something as seemingly straight forward as attacks happening automatically. After all... what is a Damage over Time spell? Same concept. Click a button once and damage happens consistently. I don't think auto-attacks need to exist for every class, and I think that could be where there's a real opportunity for changing how weapon types and classes feel different.
Auto-Attacks are essential to having a fluid and smooth combat rotation in my opinion. I have been playing ESO for over 4k hours and mostly PvP and melee warrior types. The Heavy and Light auto attacks that exist in ESO is hands down the best implementation of it I have seen, they are necessary for a higher skillcap availablility to weave between abilities. I would like to see atleast 30-40% of the attacks being heavy/light auto attacks but they should of course be left click attacks and not fully automatic. This is for Melee and possibly ranger/mage classes, when it comes to healers I can see a more spammable ability or similar as the way to go instead of auto-attacks and more towards a 15-30% auto attack ratio.
Also I would like to add a very important part. As an ESO PvPer abilities is more of a reactive answer to your opponents action against you while the basic/auto attacks are there to boost/fill the empty space between your abilities. It is very important for an MMO combat to have a clear Defensive/responsive flow and another flow when it comes to pushing out damage via a rotation to your enemies.
I'm not a fan of "auto-attacks". Your basic weapon swing should require an input (ie. left click to attack).
I'm not particular about how complicated they are (ie. just click, click or hold down for heavy, timing combos, etc). The more complicated the better but not a necessity to me.
I prefer light attacks to work in between your skills (ie weaving). So keeping up your light attacks with your skills is part of the learning curve to be good at dps. It gives them quantifiable importance.
Game with the best basic attack system I've ever played is Outward.
Basic attacks are the difference between a LMB + RMB + 1 and your character shooting lightning in a line and a LMB + LMB + and your character cleaving enemies.
There's just so much more use that basic attacks could see in a game and often times they're not there.
They're so under utilized in making an interesting combat system.
ESO has an example of shitty basic attacks, but if you roll a sorcerer and you use the Overload ultimate then that enhanced attack takes a whole new meaning - happens to be my favorite ultimate in the game because it can take something so bland and boring - add a toggle or a trigger proc and now you have something interesting.
To add more to this, basic attacks in some games change the entire attack pattern of a fight and they work into wield swapping as well, not only should you be able to weapon swap, but imagine starting on a combination/rotation involving a heavy attack on one set of weapons and finishing with another.
It just opens up a myriad of possibilities.
Changing the entire combat pace and pattern alters the gameplay in a significant and meaningful manner and will require game knowledge and mastery in order to achieve.
And it'll contribute to not allowing people to be Parsebots.
Well, how do I start this, for one I personally wont make this long and fully detailed since I'm sure the dev team has other stuff to worry about.
On to the topic at hand,
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
My 2 MMO experiences I had that I can pull anything from were WOW and TERA back when OCE had a server: both at my time of play had a auto attacks but rarely were they used in WOW's system at the time, TERA had a auto attack system that was required for some classes to build that classes resources. IMO this system is lack luster and brings no actual fun gameplay, I WANT to be able to use auto attacks in my "rotations" so to speak though I hate the notion of repeating the same stuff.
in short, yes WOW and TERA both had auto attacks but both had no value to the game.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
IMO Auto attacks ( I assume means click once and 3 animations go off ) and basic attacks ( assuming the meaning is you click for each individual swing ) are to me a core part of a character especially for resource building if it is added, I do Personally gravitate towards Basic attacks though, being able to interrupt your attacks to cast a spell is more High Fantasy to me than having it auto play a combo.
TLDR Yes I believe BASIC attacks are Essential to the High Fantasy scene.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
This question is unique because it heavily depends on the Core class and Archetype chosen. Full casting classes and archetypes should maybe be more ability focused with minimal basic attacks, and Full martial classes should prioritise Basic attacks with abilities as a secondary option. Though this gets tougher to answer when any one person can choose whatever weapon they choose ( which I would take over locking weapons to classes ) If neither of those really fit then maybe go with whatever Core class is chosen for option ( for example Fighter/ Mage= Spellsword which in this case you would get primarily Basic attacks over abilities ) the only time this rule should be excluded is the Summoner class where they should be an equal 50/50 since I assume there attacks would be more ability based anyways due to companions and such.
TLDR Depends on the class, but more in favour of having Basic attacks being important.
I want this game to not get boring and be based on ability power spikes from gear, I would like skill to actually matter with knowledge being the true power and not how fast someone can spam a button.
For me, the keywords are build customization and variety.
Let the player choose
The combo system in Ashes leads to a chance to upgrade your weapon usage if you want to. If you don't like weaving abilities or you want to use basic attacks as a rapid one hit combo non-stop, then not progressing in the weapon should allow that.
If you want your weapon to be part of your gameplay, then allowing to develop the weapon combo and add procs or utility to it should allow it to be a useful tool in your kit.
Weapons should have meaning
Most mmos treat their weapons as stat sticks. Then they use skills that are agnostic of what the actual weapon is or the class is locked to one weapon so it seems like it matters but it doesn't. In Ashes, any weapon can be used by any class. This only has meaning if each weapons has an identity and a real impact on the player's gameplay if he chooses to play with the weapon.
The combo system is great for this since each weapon can now behave differently even if they are somewhat similar. A spear would focus on forward attacks while a halberd would do wider spins. With mobility one would help have momentum forward and the other give sidestep momentum.
Mobility
Speaking of mobility :
I think with the new animation system that allows to change speed and player freedom during attacks and skills should be used more extensively. I believe that what was showcased for the greatsword was a great first step. I think preventing someone from going in the opposite direction from a heavy object momentum makes sense. But I also believe that if the player uses the directional key toward the momemtum, then his speed should be greater or there should be like a small burst of speed.
For exemple, when the player starts swinging his sword, he is slowed. Once the sword is going forward, if the player presses W, it should move him further forward following the momentum. If he presses S, since the sword is moving forward, he shouldnt be moving backward or if he does it should be very slowly. Moving to the side should be in between, allowing him to reposition but not with any boost. This kind of details on how the weapons work and how it swings could allow for an extra utility to the weapons for positioning.
Comments
I typically enjoy the constant battle of changing up attacks and strategy, trying to win over your opponent, I know this is difficult to do in MMOs especially with tab targeting and when it is done correctly people complain because its not easy enough. Spamming attacks is one of the most boring game plays, no clue why people enjoy it so much. Anyways using time mechanics to make a good combo with skills and basic attacks adjusting the time and combo due to the visual or mechanic of the skill or basic attack seems entertaining. To me this would allow for the skill based game play that seems to be a core function of the game. Also reduce animation canceling as well as some controller types for a one click (cant think of the term) major attack every time. Also enjoy parries, deflection, reflection moves but not as a constant or if so drains some aspect reduces an aspect, something that makes players think especially in a pvp scenario.
...or maybe a situation where using spell can actually harm you. Like a spell reflect or return damage spell. You would be forced to use basic attack.
I am basing this all on few Warrior spells from WoW Cataclysm like Overpower-Instantly overpower the enemy, causing weapon damage. Only useable after the target dodges. <-Replace this with ''after the target is hit by basic attack''
So spells with conditions would make basic attacks included into rotation and be connected with spell use.
Think is, you have to make basic attack look interesting though. That's why I mentioned combat arts present in games like Sekiro in my previous comment.
The basic attacks are extremely prevalent in the rotation, weaving them in between abilities is absolutely crucial to perform a good rotation, and there is a massive gap in dps between people who can do it consistently and those who can't. As a result the rotations are usually quite high APM, and because of it, I couldn't get into FFXIV, that felt painfully slow in comparison.
I like mechanically challenging rotations that require coordination and practice. I don't think it should be the standard, but I hope it can be possible to build toward that, I feel like melee dps classes at least, should have basic attacks be important to their rotation, and have the option to reinforce their efficiency through their build choices.
Basic attacks can provide damage, but also contribute to stacking effects/buff for the player or debuffs for the target.
The auto attack to me is what pits your gear against others, and is your only constant form of DPS that isn't reliant on another resource.
I feel like button mashing the same attack key to keep up damage isn't fun at all, especially if it is a task that could be automated. I would rather focus that energy on pressing the 20 cool spells that I have at my disposal.
That being said, I don't think this has a parallel with spells, and I think it's because they have a cast time. If I have a really hard hitting spell I can spam every 2 seconds like shadowbolt in WoW, I don't mind that at all.
I'm not sure why it's different, but it is.
I'd like the possibility of specing into auto attacks, perhaps. Choosing augments that enhance them and make them worthwhile. A rogue's flashy dagger autos for example, specing them to proc bleed, or make them even faster, etc. There's lots of ways surely to go about all of that, depends on how creative you want to get.
But I think that just because this game has a hybrid combat system doesn't mean the skills, and autos should be slow or clunky, not reminding us of much older MMOs. Skill targets on the ground, manual aiming, and auto lock skills coupled with basic attacks can still feel flashy and fast, even with tab targeting. FF14 has great skill weaving yet it's autos are just...autos. They have no impact, no worth compared to skill spam. I would like to be able to live out the possible character fantasy of a speedy sword wielder that has very fast rapid attacks. So for this example he would need to have very good, flashy autos. Autos that down the line could function like Black Desert's, for example. Directional input and auto attack gives you different autos, a side stepping auto, or backstepping slash with a roll if you press S and left click, etc.
Overall I think autos should feel good, fast, fluid, and impactful. A good source of dps inbetween everything that doesn't feel useless. So I think basic attacks should matter, it feels a lot more involved if I have to not only focus on spamming 1-9. Maybe auto attacks also function where after a certain skill, you get an enhanced auto attack that does twice the damage, or does a whole new animation. So it warrants weaving in autos with your skills.
I just don't want to be spamming one skill, or only pressing 1-9 and just standing there, if that makes sense. All of this is just me explaining how I enjoy action combat, and with the action combat camera toggle I think this game could scratch my itch for fluid, reactive combat really nicely.
The MMORPGs I've enjoyed the most were often more ability-focused. Depending on the class, especially ranged caster-type classes, it was helpful to weave basic attacks in between abilities to do additional damage. This was often entirely optional and mostly done by more advanced players. However, if you had a group of advanced players, this would be quite noticeable in how quickly you would progress through dungeons and raids.
I personally really liked weaving in basic attacks as a healer in between abilities. When abilities are on cooldown or I am not pressured to heal, it felt like I was contributing more to the combat than your average healer who did not do that.
In those games, melee classes would, instead of weaving in attacks between abilities, use their basic attacks to power up their next ability. It's like filling a rage or resource meter of sorts. For example, you do a melee attack, gain X rage, and when you use an ability, you consume a certain amount of rage to gain an additional effect or damage for the ability use.
The difference between how various classes would handle this approach made playing more than one class not only interesting but also fun because the dynamic would change, giving the player a different experience.
I feel that the role and importance of using a basic attack should change based on what type of class you are.
I want this to be different based on if I am a Martial Class Type or an Arcane Class Type.
To me, it makes sense for Basic Attacks to have more value to Martial Type Classes as they are about Martial Prowess, while an Arcane Type Class, which might have valued more the study of spells, would be all about using their Abilities and using their basic attacks to keep doing damage while their abilities are either on cooldown or they are waiting for the right moment to use their ability, maybe situationally.
When both these options are available to players, this should ideally result in players, even if they are on opposite ends of this discussion, finding a class or archetype that fits their preferred way of play.
Additional Thoughts:
I like a system that makes it easy for new players to pick up and get into the game without overwhelming them, but also allows for more advanced players to get that extra power out of it by weaving their basic attacks in between their abilities where appropriate.
And if the game ends up gravitating towards tab, basic attacks need consistency in terms of dmg as well as being auto-attacks without the need to spam the button.
Bad example of basic attacks:
Eso easy animation cancelling (terrible visuals). Auto attacks just added dps. Also, because in ESO gear did the combat for you instead of boosting your stats, auto attacks procced effortlessly a lot of extra dmg.
Big winners: ranged weapons.
Good example of basic attacks:
Tera Online. Dont remember much of the other classes but the warrior in tera online gained MP from basic attacks.
Also, when certain abilities were cast (by any class) and the warrior would hit them with basic attacks, the abilities were interrupted.
It was an interesting trade off. Instead of dealing dmg with abilities you could use your basic attacks to gain mp or interrupted a strong incoming dmg.
The dangers of using basic attacks was that you could be parried and put on a stunned state.
Overall interesting design.
I also like L2s approach of basic attacks.
Some players can mush buttons 24/7 others dont find it appealing, especially of the mmo has meaningful lv up duration (grind mobs).
In L2 the basic attacks were trully auto-attacks. Select a target hit atk or left click and your character would attack.
Due to the importance of supports (buffers) in L2, basic attacks were the main source of dmg in PvE whilst mp and skills were reserved for dangerous situations and PvP. It's the best scenario for a tab combat mmo.
Give us skills with cooldowns and various mp costs and let the scenario demand ppl to think what skill is more suitable.
This 100%.
And to add on to that, basic attacks if made important or valuable at all, then people feel like they have to learn to weave basic attacks in between abilities in order to maximize dps which is a stupid way to play. ESO is the worst offender of course, but it's just not a fun way to play.
TERA I seem to remember did the idea of a basic attack better. It wasn't valuable DPS so nobody tried to weave it for that, but it had other uses. For some classes it regenerated their mana (even phys dps). For some classes it also allowed them to stagger. But it wasn't spammed, it was used occasionally for thoughtful uses.
Also from a functional standpoint - nobody wants to spam whatever key their attack is bound to. I'd like to see something where if we press our basic attack button and it keeps on doing the attack or combo until we use another skill. So we still have to press it to start it, but we don't have to spam.
They usually dont play much of a role in most modern mmo’s. Only when the basic attack is a actual mouse click like shooting a gun ie swinging the sword per click and blocking with the other mouse button. In the latter case it is a essential tool.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Assumed guarantee of a steady dps when not in ability rotations. If we are going to go for a more involved click to manually swing or draw a bow then id hope we get chance to parry and block for stamina deduction.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
As said no to auto-attacks being primary unless we get a more involved version of attacking and defending like in games such as For Honor, Mordhau or Chivalry. Otherwise its just something that happens to guarantee your not just a statue taking hits when you go oom of stamina or mana. It also is very bland and boring. So since i do not know of a system in aoc that does this i will say abilities mostly.
How can you make auto-attacks flavored and not bland without overlapping abilities.
The possibility to have skills that modify basic attack stats such as speed, crit, etc. playing a paladin in wow classic made me realize how dreadful auto attacks are even with a attack power and weapon buff. You should just have base stats play into basic auto attack function. So if someone has high crit chance they often crit. If they have speed via strength and or agility to swing a blade quicker then the auto attack speeds up. You should also make it so basic attack has style depending on class combination, stats and weapon used. Ie a way a tank might hold a two hand sword might be different then a non tank who may be dps. Samurais in history used no shield and created their own unique fighting style that was defensive and offensive at a higher agility and speed. Nothing needs to be always i am a tank i need a shield and heavy armor to tank look at my strength level. The zweihander in history is another example of a offensively defensive weapon that would fit a tank without a shield. Its essentially a heavy parry weapon instead of blocking with a shield while having a enormous girth to hit foes almost like a spear while keeping foes at a distance. It used its huge size often on average about 5 feet in length and hefty weight to essentially batter the foes to death to keep them at a distance yet heavy enough to strike killing blows. You could make the two hand swords handle differently based off stats and or any other weapons. It does not need to be a role specific play style weapon like a zweihander tank only. Just the class combination and weapon/stats dictates the style of combat via auto and/or basic attacks. It does more then just allow different weapon types of even the same variant like said swords to be used it makes the use practical and meaningful when you use and see it being used.It can spread out the players choice of playstyles to choose from beyond class combinations. a tank variant would have a naturally higher parry/tankability with said two hands then a dps variant would. But the dps would get higher dps with less parry chance. The natural abilities of said class/class combo would stack the basic class role functions ontop of this. So technically you could be a tank who plays like a samurai with a quicker two hand who might be more interested in a playstyle of running through enemies quickly for mobility with a higher then normal parry chance compared to a dps class with said samurai like blade. Alternatively you could have the tank using a zweihander type weapon/blade that he swings about ferociously to keep enemies more at bay as he slowly dwindles down the health. If someone uses magic against them the blade could deflect like a lightsaber because of size instead of blocking/absorbing like a shield. Deflect does not need to mean deflect back but simply deflect. The stats you choose further embed the playstyle and weapon choice more meaningful. The samurai type blade could be heavier on using the agility type stat to increase effectiveness of the parry and or speed and strength can increase damage. Im assuming in event speed is not its own stat you can get on gear or otherwise. Basic attacks could be a filler to fill the role for its use IE the samurai blades basic is a quick damaging parry to avoid damage while moving/advancing could use stamina so its not spammy. The abnormally large 2 hander like the zweihander might have a slower charged basic of swinging around and pushing enemies back and or with a chance of knocking some down.
Similar to healer showcase, basic abilities could have a channeled form which basically amounts to auto attack, or single press that can be woven around other abilities.
For some weapon/ archetype it might make sense to trade even lower damage for another source of utility Eg recover class resource, minor heal ally, improve attack, block or dodge for x seconds, reduce cooldowns, buff allies, absorb damage from allies, buff enemies, reduce threat... etc
Now if you basic attack contributed to something in the kit itself you going somewhere.
Some ways of doing this is
- Weapon procs (EQ/WoW chance on hit effect)
- Regain mana (WoW paladin blessing of wisdom for example here)
- reduces cooldown of a certain ability when attacking (Senna for example reducing Q cooldown by 1 second per AA)
- On hit effects basic attacks does x effect usualy extra dmg or movement speed (league of legend uses this on items)
- Applies effect based on conditions (Your mage passive seems to do this where ur attacks do something based on last element of spell you used if i remember correctly)
These can either be part of a choice in class skill kits or weapon/armour and so on.
Basic attacks are the difference between a LMB + RMB + 1 and your character shooting lightning in a line and a LMB + LMB + and your character cleaving enemies.
There's just so much more use that basic attacks could see in a game and often times they're not there.
They're so under utilized in making an interesting combat system.
ESO has an example of shitty basic attacks, but if you roll a sorcerer and you use the Overload ultimate then that enhanced attack takes a whole new meaning - happens to be my favorite ultimate in the game because it can take something so bland and boring - add a toggle or a trigger proc and now you have something interesting.
While I recognize those are ARPGs and this is an MMORPG, the concept carries, I think.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
'basic attacks' are rarely a thing in most mmos I've played, but I guess it depends how you define them. Usually what I consider to be 'basic' are a low cost skill with no requirements and continually spammable. The first part of your combo in Final Fantasy XIV, for example. Except you don't want to spam this - usually it's just the starting point for the rest of your skills.
Auto-attacks, on the other hand, are a little more useful. They are passive damage for when I've fat fingered something or had a brain fart. Or if I'm waiting on cooldowns and have nothing better to be doing.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Pretty much what I already wrote above. The way the weapon talents were explained I'd like basic attacks to be an option depending on what I need to be doing.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
The fact that this was asked in this way creates an assumption of rotation-first gameplay, which I'm concerned about. While it's true that any set of skills will come down to a rotation, it shouldn't be the focus of skill design. This was the thing that lead to Final Fantasy XIV becoming more and more 'samish' because the devs started to tweak skills to match the rotation of the other classes and streamlined everything, which meant that if one player messed up their rotation everyone suffered and the rotations became pretty much mandatory. (Ninja, my class, HAS to use Mug on cooldown because if you do it late everyone else is bursting without that boost and heaven forbid you mess up your mudra and have the 'bunny of shame' on your head visually telegraphing what a bad Ninja you are.)
I would rather skills be synergistic in dynamic ways that lead to emergent gameplay - rather than a rote rotation.
Now that said, I see the weapon use combo as previously described as being a set up into my other skills. This will likely be similar in effect to FFIV, where my 'entry level low cost skill' sets up other combos. The difference being in FFIV the combo was mandatory to do in that order - wheras this is an 'add on'. I basic attack to inflict a status and then use a skill that benefits from that status. However depending on what the rest of my party is doing maybe there will be situatiosn where I can go straight to the skill instead of doing the set up.
Not many modern games use auto attack anymore, but the 'auto' means 'automatic'. If you are doing something to activate it (such as clicking the mouse) then it's not an auto-attack.
Auto-attacks are mostly holdovers from Telnet MUDs that were the ancestor to MMOs, and have largely gone by the wayside for modern games in favour of a spammable 'basic attack' skill that you use over and over again. It used to be that internet speeds didn't really allow for realtime gameplay so you'd type 'attack orc' and you'd start swinging at the orc automatically. But now that internet speeds are faster you can reasonably expect if you click three times you can get three attacks in at the real time.
If it requires user input - it's not an auto attack, and you should probably stop using the term unless that's what you mean.
Basic attacks in other games are often just filler when skills are on cooldown or maybe if you are out of mana/stamina for better attacks.
An option to make basic attacks fit into tactical gameplay would be to make weapon procs only occur from basic attacks, not skills.
Maybe some form of toggle-able auto-attack "type" would make more players happy. You could for example choose a heavier but slower style, and switch to a faster and weaker style. Something like this would allow for the quick finish when a target has only a sliver of HP left, which feels rewarding to snipe in a split second decision. It would also allow for something like enemy armor types being weaker to strong styles. Groups would have to coordinate which attack-style to use in a given moment for various situations. A raid would have to carefully assign styles for priority targets and so on.
I love MMO combat for the decision-making more than anything. I feel other game genres are better suited for my need for action combat (and I don't play them often...) I'm a lover of old school and strongly believe that its sorely missing in the space today.
But as a summary and more directly relating to the question to this dev discussion. Every class should have a "spammable ability". If that comes in the form of a basic attack then that's good--that doesn't mean that the spammable ability must be a basic attack. An example of this would be the cleric's "mend" ability. Just something to do during downtime outside of your rotation.
I don't think hybrid-combat can exist if tab target has auto-attacks automatically going off while they do their rotation. That would just make tab-target superior.
In conclusion: Basic attacks should be their own slot and every class should have a spammable ability to use on rotation CD. Weaving in basic attacks and spammable abilities is a use of skill expression.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
I feel the Auto-Attacks / Basic attacks present a unique opportunity for combat style and flavor. Other games have usually lumped all classes into the same pile for this one (ie. "The Game" has auto-attack, or it doesn't). I feel this is an opportunity for Ashes to explore something different as a class-style element for combat.
I'll begin by providing my personal views to answer the discussion questions, then provide some suggestions that I think would work great for the intrepid design narrative of "choices matter".
For the purpose of this post, I'll be differentiating "auto-Attacks" and "basic attacks" as two different things.
Auto-Attacks being: click the target once, and attacks repeatedly occur at a rate determined by the weapon attack speed, without clicking anything else.
Basic Attacks: An activated ability. But a simple one with little-to-no additional effects, little-to-no resource cost, and/or resource/secondary-resource generating potential.
Discussion Questions
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
My preferred role in MMOs is Healing. For a healer, I think Basic Attacks are a bad idea, but Auto-Attacks have a purpose.
I think Basic Attacks (activate-able, standard, non-special attacks) are a mistake for healers. We already have enough on our plate as it is with pre-casting heals, setting up ground-target effects, proactive HoTs or shields, reactive heals, defensive cooldown management. I don't think it's a good idea to introduce an activated basic attack. Offensive abilities absolutely have their place, but they should have a purpose. Basic attacks likely wouldn't get much use unless they had additional interactions with other abilities or class mechanics. Which by definition would arguably make them "not basic" in the first place.
On the other hand... Auto-Attacks have existed in lots of MMOs and Healers had access to them too. However, they were almost always an after-thought for this type of class. If the MMO offered it as an option, usually the Healers would rarely use it. Either because it did insignificant damage or because the game design of those specific MMOs required healers to sustain near-constant healing uptime in order to keep themselves and/or others alive. Meaning auto-attacks were either insignificant or impractical. I like the existence of auto-attacks in games. Heck, I'd even like it as an option for clerics. Some Class combinations of the Cleric archetype could go the route of interlacing damage through spells while others do it through Cleric-Empowered Melee abilities and auto-attacks. Melee-Clerics versus Caster-Clerics, so-to-speak. I don't know which I'd prefer, but I think it would be a good option to have to create nuance in Cleric gameplay (as the only healing archetype in the game, it would provide uniqueness between the options).
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
I go into this a bit more in-depth, below. The short answer is: I think it's a class flavor option and I can have fun with either. Caster DPS, for example, rarely values auto-attacking. But in some of the other games I've played, Auto-Attacks are meaningful contributors of damage, and the abilities you use are opportunistic, reactive to what's happening, or serve some kind of purpose (spending resource, repositioning, buffing auto-attacks with some benefit, etc.) I think it's fun to have both options and either can be enjoyed.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I've played games where auto-attacks exist, and others where they were replaced by Basic Attacks, essentially accomplishing the same purpose - but requiring a key press. Sometimes those games had these attack serve no role other than humble, baseline damage to supplement overall performance. Other games have used these attacks as resource generation tools, and others use basic attacks as predicates for a combo-rotation to "unlock" other abilities (1-2-3 combo).
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
I think the role of Autos/Basics can be leveraged to introduce meaningful differentiation in the flavor-elements of class gameplay. At the same time, I genuinely believe that combat can be made meaningful with either the inclusion or exclusion of auto-attacks/basic attacks. I've played and enjoyed combat in various other games through both systems. The claim I take particular issue with is that "damage happening automatically" is somehow a problem or "requires no skill". I don't think there's a problem with damage happening automatically, as long as optimal combat still requires intelligent and consistent gameplay, and at the end of the day - that's where I believe most people take issue with auto-attacks and the role they play in Damage output. To that end, I agree that a top-performer should not be able to simply put their well-itemized character in Auto-Attack mode and still accomplish anything meaningful. But, I don't see it as a lack-of-skill to have auto-attacks contribute meaningful damage if there's an intricate combination of abilities to use, buffs to manage, and rotations to execute in order to make those auto-attacks do good damage. At the end of the day, "skill" comes from using everything in a toolkit to achieve performance. And in that circumstance, the role of Auto-Attacks is imperative as the damage-output combat design of a specific class/weapon type.
However, I don't think this should be the only role of Auto-attacks. I think each class/weapon type can, and should, explore this question individually (explained in greater detail in my "Choices Matter" section, below).
But, in short. Auto-attacks could serve the role of building rage for a barbarian or warrior. A "basic" ability could generate Combo Points for an Assassin or Rogue, while auto-attacks provide a little low-but-consistent damage pressure. A "basic attack" could be needed for a tank to activate a 1-2-3 or 1-4-5 combo rotation of abilities based on whether they were trying to tank 1 mob versus a group of them. In any of these cases, these attacks play a meaningful role in HOW combat occurs, regardless of their specific impact which could range from minor to significant.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
As a healer I would say: It depends. How games balance Time-To-Death and Time-To-Heal essentially determines whether Healers really have the ability to do ANYTHING other than heal constantly. Personally I like games where kill-time is slightly longer so that Healers have time to be methodical and/or support with a little offensive ability use themselves. If that existed in Ashes, I think it would be a lot of fun to have the option of being a heavily-armored, Melee-focused front-line Healer that could provide low-but-not-insignificant damage support with a little extra auto-attack damage. However, that option has really only ever existed in one MMO before, and that was in Warhammer Age of Reckoning as Disciple of Khaine and Warrior-Priest. The system was okay, but the game had some functional limitations that made the experience suboptimal. My experience has mostly been that healers attacking from a range with a mind-numbingly simple DPS rotation (since their healing rotation is their primary role, the after-thought of DPS is usually not too challenging). So to bring it back to the question, I would "want" my melee rotation to include auto-attacks as an important piece. But I would want basic attacks to stay far away from a ranged-cleric DPS rotation.
Since Healer perspective is much less valuable in this circumstance, I'll also add that I stand by my previous (and, written below) statements that I would want both options available to me. Some DPS classes that require high-APM and constant ability activation, and others that are methodical, timed, and supplemented by auto-attacks.
"Choices Matter": Myrc's views on why Auto-Attacking Can Co-Exist with Non-Auto-Attacking
Here is the premises by which I identify this as an opportunity for Intrepid to deliver something unique:
1) Stylistically, different weapon types would benefit more from the "narrative" behind what an Auto attack is.
2) It is likely to be the case that some people respond that they like auto-attacks and others don't. Picking one lane potentially disappoints the other. Not a problem if there's a majority, but certainly an opportunity to disappoint neither.
I'll elaborate on these premises below.
Premise #1: Some weapons/classes make more sense than others to have auto-attacks / basic-attacks
If we consider a combat scenario where a class dual-wielding daggers is in combat. Surely some of their attacks will be spectacular flips, or ingeniously designed poisons, and those things should cost a secondary resource (like energy, or mana, or "action points", whichever). But these are also very small weapons and it really wouldn't take much energy at all to provide a quick poke at the enemy in between the recuperation needed for another lavish attack. To me, it makes sense for daggers to have an element of auto-attack to them because it would be rather believable for a character with daggers to mix-and-match a quick little poke in between their attacks.
On the flip side. A Greatsword or a giant hammer is not a lightweight contraption. Every motion by one of those weapons is going to take substantially more time, do considerably more damage, and would likely require much more energy than a dagger. Does it make sense that every 3 seconds a swing comes out auto-matically that a player could time with the execution of another ability to essentially over-lap two GIANT weapon swings at once? To me, that makes less sense from a style perspective. Of course, we suspend our belief in reality in the interest of fun gameplay all the time, and I've happily done this for dozens of games in the past. It's not a problem that 2 handed weapons have auto-attacks. But from the narrative of what combat IS between two players, it certainly could make sense to have 2 handed weapons or "heavy one-handed weapons" provide no auto-attack. But instead, have a secondary-resource-free "basic" attack that people could do for modest damage to introduce some damage that doesn't cost anything while they manage their cooldowns and available resource pool.
Another benefit of this split is the acknowledgement of the impact on the Rock-Paper-Scissors element of combat advantages in PvP gameplay. Case-in-point, if Daggers and light-weight weapons had auto-attacks, and attacks provided some semblance of disruption to casting, it would be natural that the fast-attacking weapons would be more disruptive to casters (fitting with the established understanding that rogues tend to be more disruptive to healers, for example. Who might struggle to get casts off if a rogue is constantly berating them with fast attacks). Auto-Attacks provide additional rapidity of the attack flow for rogues in this circumstance. Similarly, 2 handed weapons may hit harder for more "bursty" damage, but they certainly shouldn't be a consistently disruptive to casting as spells could be laced between the slower and less consistent attack animations.
Premise #2: Pick both lanes instead of just one
If the player base is split on this, why not have both!? It could easily present meaningful flavor difference in how the classes play. (ie. "My main is an auto-attack-based melee Rogue. I really like auto-attacking so maybe my first alt will be an auto-attack based bow-using ranger. And then my second alt will be an Ability-based class, like a 2-Handed Fighter or a Mage".
The reality is, many games indirectly have this sort of dichotomy already. Casters rarely use their "auto-attack" features. Mages and Healers rarely pull out their staves for a little clobbering and achieve 99% of their combat efficacy through activated abilities only. The fact that they can auto-attack at all is a reflection of the system, and is an after-thought for those classes already. Why not provide it as a gameplay flavor that makes each weapon style feel genuinely unique. This would make for a meaningful gameplay choice when selecting smaller 1-handed weapons versus 2-handed weapons. A choice that isn't simply "do I want numbers to appears more often and be smaller, or less often and be bigger". Now it functionally changes the keys you're pressing and the timing of it.
An example of how this would fundamentally modify gameplay: If a 2-handed mace must click their "basic" ability for filler attacks to work around their cooldowns, they might click some hypothetical cooldown abilities to initiate their battle and then launch into an interlacing of basic attacks and resource-costing attacks in a sort of combo. Their key-pressing would likely be a rotation of sort, but the key-pressing would be near-constant while in combat as they attempt to constant;y activate the next ability as soon as they are able (around GCDs). Meanwhile, the auto-attacky weapons and classes would be more intentional about the timing of key presses. So rather than constantly pressing ability buttons, or spamming "1" for their basic attack, they would be waiting for the conditions of their next ability or cooldown to be met. This creates a gameplay style change and keeps both options in the game.
Conclusion
I love that Devs are seeking our input on this to integrate into their design philosophies. To me, choices being impactful has always been a mainstay of the Intrepid philosophy for Ashes of Creation, and I think it could provide extremely meaningful combat choice options to include auto-attacking. The fears of it being skill-less are archaic and based on old-games that had combat systems limited by technology. These days, using auto-attacks as a foundation for how a class feels and behaves, but making it weak without ability supplementation can make a class feel both responsive, and complex, even with something as seemingly straight forward as attacks happening automatically. After all... what is a Damage over Time spell? Same concept. Click a button once and damage happens consistently. I don't think auto-attacks need to exist for every class, and I think that could be where there's a real opportunity for changing how weapon types and classes feel different.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk
I'm not particular about how complicated they are (ie. just click, click or hold down for heavy, timing combos, etc). The more complicated the better but not a necessity to me.
I prefer light attacks to work in between your skills (ie weaving). So keeping up your light attacks with your skills is part of the learning curve to be good at dps. It gives them quantifiable importance.
To add more to this, basic attacks in some games change the entire attack pattern of a fight and they work into wield swapping as well, not only should you be able to weapon swap, but imagine starting on a combination/rotation involving a heavy attack on one set of weapons and finishing with another.
It just opens up a myriad of possibilities.
Changing the entire combat pace and pattern alters the gameplay in a significant and meaningful manner and will require game knowledge and mastery in order to achieve.
And it'll contribute to not allowing people to be Parsebots.
On to the topic at hand,
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
My 2 MMO experiences I had that I can pull anything from were WOW and TERA back when OCE had a server: both at my time of play had a auto attacks but rarely were they used in WOW's system at the time, TERA had a auto attack system that was required for some classes to build that classes resources. IMO this system is lack luster and brings no actual fun gameplay, I WANT to be able to use auto attacks in my "rotations" so to speak though I hate the notion of repeating the same stuff.
in short, yes WOW and TERA both had auto attacks but both had no value to the game.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
IMO Auto attacks ( I assume means click once and 3 animations go off ) and basic attacks ( assuming the meaning is you click for each individual swing ) are to me a core part of a character especially for resource building if it is added, I do Personally gravitate towards Basic attacks though, being able to interrupt your attacks to cast a spell is more High Fantasy to me than having it auto play a combo.
TLDR Yes I believe BASIC attacks are Essential to the High Fantasy scene.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
This question is unique because it heavily depends on the Core class and Archetype chosen. Full casting classes and archetypes should maybe be more ability focused with minimal basic attacks, and Full martial classes should prioritise Basic attacks with abilities as a secondary option. Though this gets tougher to answer when any one person can choose whatever weapon they choose ( which I would take over locking weapons to classes ) If neither of those really fit then maybe go with whatever Core class is chosen for option ( for example Fighter/ Mage= Spellsword which in this case you would get primarily Basic attacks over abilities ) the only time this rule should be excluded is the Summoner class where they should be an equal 50/50 since I assume there attacks would be more ability based anyways due to companions and such.
TLDR Depends on the class, but more in favour of having Basic attacks being important.
I want this game to not get boring and be based on ability power spikes from gear, I would like skill to actually matter with knowledge being the true power and not how fast someone can spam a button.
Let the player choose
The combo system in Ashes leads to a chance to upgrade your weapon usage if you want to. If you don't like weaving abilities or you want to use basic attacks as a rapid one hit combo non-stop, then not progressing in the weapon should allow that.
If you want your weapon to be part of your gameplay, then allowing to develop the weapon combo and add procs or utility to it should allow it to be a useful tool in your kit.
Weapons should have meaning
Most mmos treat their weapons as stat sticks. Then they use skills that are agnostic of what the actual weapon is or the class is locked to one weapon so it seems like it matters but it doesn't. In Ashes, any weapon can be used by any class. This only has meaning if each weapons has an identity and a real impact on the player's gameplay if he chooses to play with the weapon.
The combo system is great for this since each weapon can now behave differently even if they are somewhat similar. A spear would focus on forward attacks while a halberd would do wider spins. With mobility one would help have momentum forward and the other give sidestep momentum.
Mobility
Speaking of mobility :
I think with the new animation system that allows to change speed and player freedom during attacks and skills should be used more extensively. I believe that what was showcased for the greatsword was a great first step. I think preventing someone from going in the opposite direction from a heavy object momentum makes sense. But I also believe that if the player uses the directional key toward the momemtum, then his speed should be greater or there should be like a small burst of speed.
For exemple, when the player starts swinging his sword, he is slowed. Once the sword is going forward, if the player presses W, it should move him further forward following the momentum. If he presses S, since the sword is moving forward, he shouldnt be moving backward or if he does it should be very slowly. Moving to the side should be in between, allowing him to reposition but not with any boost. This kind of details on how the weapons work and how it swings could allow for an extra utility to the weapons for positioning.