What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
In some it has been the main way of dealing damage and farm mobs and abilities were there to make it easier and more fun. This is in my opinion quite a basic system and gets old rather quickly. In others, you only use auto attacks until you learn enough skills to be able to omit using them completely. This makes them obsolete so in my opinion also not a very good solution.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Auto-attacks could serve a very interesting purpose if they can be seamlessly involved in a rotation especially for a melee class. If implemented correctly, auto-attacks might increase the damage potential of a rotation. This might raise the skill ceiling for certain classes. Creating skills which empower autoattacks is also a great way to make players think of ways to implement these autoattacks into their rotation.
I think caster classes should also be able to work with autoattacks but not necessarily. Slow casters would probably choose to omit autoattacks altogether.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would say it depends on the class you are playing. For ranger I would say autoattacks should be majority of damage done on most builds and abilities should focus on enhancing those attacks. For classes like rogue and fighter I would like to see a wide variability on how autoattack heavy you want your build to be. For caster classes I would expect empowered autoattacks to be something you can spec into but not necessary to include in your build.
Overall I think autoattacks should definitely be a part of combat and if implemented correctly can add a lot of depth and make combat much more interesting. This being said, I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution across all playable classes.
Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
Yes, I like when my weapon is meaningful. In a short TTK game like BDO it would be fine even if weapons weren't class locked, the class locking just helps because the abilities can all be very physical 'You are using this weapon and it defines your class sort of', as it is in Throne and Liberty. I'm not asking for that in Ashes, but if the TTK is long, unless the ability animations are also long (which I haven't seen so far), one of two things will happen. Either (1) we will be provided with a different ability (maybe two!) on very short 'cooldowns' that will take up the exact role of the basic attack, but will be Archetype based instead of weapon based. I would be fine with this if the player was choosing 'Archetype Basic vs Weapon Basic', but I don't want to carry around a weapon only to then spam the 'Quick Attack of my Class'...
2) We will spend much more time dodging and running around without actually attacking, and trying to get as much Cooldown Reduction as possible and with a lot of mana (or I guess mana will recharge based on Basic hit, which I don't even want to think about balancing relative to Wand/Staff and everything else).
I don't like either of the above, which is probably why I play the types of game I play.
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
I don't care as much here other than my usual unreasonable response below:
TP GAUGE. WEAPON SKILLS. RAAAGH. WHY ARE GAMES DESIGNED WITHOUT THIS IN 2024?
I'm not being serious. I know why. It's too complicated. So it goes. If we're not getting anything equivalent, I don't really care what else weapons technically do beyond what has been promised, though I have many many opinions on exactly what the procs should do somewhere around, and I won't request the balance headache of 'making a Class skill work differently depending on the range of the equipped weapon' or anything like that (apparently people find this to be less complicated, in my data gathering, I still do not understand how that is so, but they're adamant, so I believe them).
In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
My bias stands, if I play it, I consider it to have been done well or well enough. If it wasn't done well enough, I don't play it. So, to rank the ones I play or played enough to say stuff about in terms of how well they do it, and explicitly not factoring the TP Gauge of FFXI into the 'scoring':
?????? ??? ???????: Winner, by far. Can't say more. I'm sure Dev Team knows already.
TERA (therefore winner by double caveat): This game's 'basic attacks' matter only in hard to explain ways, for me, but still. And yet, an excerpt from its wiki relative to 'Pre Awakening' (I just call all these things 'awakening' now. They're gonna get me to start calling things "Cultivation" too at this rate) "There are three basic attack skills: Double Cut, Skyfall and Circle of Steel. All have powerlinks for next skill, so they should be cast in that order. If you run out of skills to use, just cast Combo Attack to reduce all basic cooldown by 0.5 seconds."
Predecessor (MOBA): What I hope for in all MMOs, but accept that some others maybe don't want. Mages get weaker Basic Attacks with no boosting abilities without giving up big blast power, but they can through items, which count as the Weapons. Junglers and tanks get 'this is going to regain me health eventually somehow or lower your power'. Bruisers get Shred and bleed, Assassins get 'if I keep hitting you I get movespeed', Carries get 'I can speed it up or slow you down to kill you faster'. Beautiful. They have base skills around these things and then certain items take the role of the 'Weapon', so it has the same result mechanically. Basically, my Sevarog almost always has a different Hammer conceptually, except when building for pure tanking/annoyance when I keep 'the default Hammer'.
Neverwinter: What I'd settle for if not for the True Winner. A lot more speed on the abilities, but it leads to low adaptation and 'rotations', with only the longer cooldown things acting almost entirely as 'things to alternate in a certain slot for more damage. The weapons are still not pure stat sticks at least... I think. To be honest I never even bothered to try to understand this much. Neverwinter weapon stat descriptions stymie even me. One of the only times where I just go 'does it have a cool name? Is it a rarer color? Is the game suggesting I equip it? Equipped!' despite there actually being some difference... probably. I remember not doing that a few times, but I gave up eventually.
Onigiri: Weapons are integral, if unrealistic, since they define you almost entirely. Want to use Spear? Build stats that work with it. Want to use Twin Swords? Same deal. Your 'class' is therefore defined basically by your preference. The Weapons are there to give you skills thematically appropriate to them, and affect your ability and movement. So if I build for 'Healing and Crit' and take Staff + Twin Swords, anything else I take will be my utility weapons (you get four at a time, I could take 2 Staff and also 2 different Twin Swords, though). They DO have attack values though, and those attack values factor into everything the specific weapon does, so if I carry 'two sets of Twin Swords' I have to make sure that they are both strong, or the weaker one's skills will just be fairly weaker, they're not pulling ONLY from my base stats. It's fun, but middling design, I think.
FFXI: If Weapon Skills are ignored, they're not even 'stat sticks', they're just for your auto-attacks, they don't give you additional stats and their damage isn't factored into your (non Weapon) 'skills' other than the fact that some of them are based around enhancing your Auto-Attack (this is distinguishable for anyone cursorily checking by the fact that there are no 'Job Skills' in FFXI, when I say 'skill' I mean 'Job Ability' or 'Job Trait'). Basically, the thing that matters here is flavor moreso than substance, if you ignore the WeaponSkill part. (a large part of my fear/concern for Ashes is that it will try to do something closer to this, but then no TP gauge, and I'll get WoW combat, but even that is better than...). What they do often have is 'different base damage', 'Accuracy Differences', and 'proc effects', but 90% of the time you care about them due to the Weapon Skill/TP Gauge system and the Big Numbers. Some late game ones offer nice defensive stats on certain classes.
Insert Generic Semi-Modern Korean MMO Here:
Whether weapons are class locked or not, it's almost all '1920% of Base Damage for the first Hit, then 224% damage for hits 2 and 3'. Oh, except Lost Ark which eases you into the percentages later. Note, I have no problem with the percentages at all unless the weapons themselves have no true underlying effects of their own ('big damage and/or attack speed bonuses don't count here). These all blend together in my head, honestly, I don't play these games for long except for 'studying' and this part seemed simplistic enough to not spend much time thinking about. Basically, if I'm getting class locked weapons with percentage base damage class skills, it's fine, but as this would be utterly insane in a Free Weapon Choice game... you could say that I 'only hate this in Ashes'.
Special Mention - Guild Wars 2:
Mm, creamy and homogenous.
This gets onto the list as the 'done poorly'. It works for the game, but full disclosure, I have not kept up with the current state of this game at all. Not my thing. This is probably part of why. I'm sure someone can correct me on how GW2 weapons matter.
Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Synergy. Procs. Specialization. Build distinction. Doesn't have to be much. I don't actually care if it's basics or autos, personally. Who even 'stops attacking when they are in range' unless their attack won't cancel when they press something else or the enemy has a strong counterattack or 'thorns-like' effect? And since enemies should probably be able to counterattack skills, even more reason to have your swinging as basically a toggle'
As a controller main, the difference between 'Hold R2 to repeatedly swing weapon' and 'Press R1 to start swinging weapon, cancel with OtherButton' is minimal. I guess the second one allows slightly more options in a Tab Target mode and might be a little less of a dexterity requirement.
I don't really think there's anywhere to improve these mechanically beyond where they have reached in certain games. They're already performing their exact perfect function in a smooth and intuitive way. if one doesn't like that, I'd wager that the person also isn't very much a fan of having them be meaningful at all.
Or they want to play Absolver/BDO, I guess, which is a whole different kettle of fish, which I hope will be classed as a Mace or Hammer.
*slaps <t> around with a large trout*
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2023
I'm glad you asked. First, can we agree that spamming 1 button is a bad design?
In the latest gameplay video, the mages had 15 skills in hotbar, yet they chose to spam Q (basic attack) most of the time. It looked as if the 15 skills are the fillers, when it should be the other way around.
If the Q-spam was for Elemental Empowerment stacks, then this skill needs to go away or get reworked. Just the fact that it can hard CC (Frozen) enemies with unavoidable tab-target is bad enough already. Remove or rework the stacks too, because the current design is not intuitive. If I want to freeze a target, I want it frozen NOW. You can make the combat complex without annoying minigames. I can already imagine how unfun it will be fighting mages on a melee class while permanently slowed from unavoidable Chilled stacks. Slow debuff is a strong tool to fight fast classes on an equal speed. But where is the counterplay or risk/reward in landing/dodging a slow debuff from a spammable targeted attack?
Rework idea for Elemental Empowerment:
1- Make it increase the basic attack damage and the attack type becomes elemental, so that some classes are better than others at some weapons. In the Tank showcase video, the tank pulled mobs with a wand, it doesn't look right. Give tank its own method of pulling; a spammable Taunt, or ranged attack, or a buff that changes the form of basic attack, like Sacred Hammering (shown in image below) from Dragon Nest.
in DN, weapons have a weight(superarmor break) and can extend CC combo with basic attacks. Ranged weapons can't, but attacks have enough weight to push down a flinching/staggering enemy. The melee vs ranged balance makes sense to me. I know combo-based combat is not what Ashes of Creation is aiming to make. It doesn't need to be copy-paste, just take inspiration from this if you want basic attacks to be relevant for all classes.
(Edit: Also, worth mentioning that different weapons had different CC stats, for example hammers had higher chance to "bonk!" and land a stun, whereas swords had higher chance to paralyze.
Blunt vs Slash vs Piercing weapon types, basically, each type specialize at something.)
EDIT 2: To be clear, RNG CC generally is one of the worst combat ideas I've seen in MMOs like BDO, but I think it's forgivable if it's built-in very few skills that are weak and require aiming - like the basic attacks in the GIF above^^ to make them more threatening to walk into, and worth using for more than just damage.
2- Instead of changing element based on the element of last used skill, let us choose the element with A/W/D keys after pressing the skill. Similar to "Breath of the Spirit" Archer skill from BDO, if you need reference. But with the freedom to change element mid-combat by pressing the skill again. Press S to deactivate it.
Players don't like reading, make it intuitive with 3 elements appearing around the character as explained in my amazing paint drawing below.
The weapon is then engulfed in flaming/lightning/frosty(or watery) effects and changes the color and sound of the attacks. Should it consume mana constantly? Not necessarily because basic attacking should remain just a filler. No class (or DPS class) should run out of damage skills to use, and the number of skills doesn't need to be equal for all classes, since some classes are faster APM than others.
3- Now what should the elements do? that's up to you. I only dislike the easy and limitless accessibility to slows and hard cc in the ice element. Maybe you could make Chilled stack only applicable on the last combo attack (for the wand, last attack is the sixth attack, but it hits 3 times) 5 chilled just refreshes the accumulated slows. Frozen CC should not be accessed from Chilled stacks, but it could maybe increase the duration of Frozen or inflicts Frostbite debuff that increases received damage like in Elden Ring's Frostbite and Dragon Nest's Frostbite (in DN, ice mage wasan important support class in raids because of this. A mage class that doesn't require high gear or damage to get picked in raids, very unique design, it was a good game...).
My idea for lightning element is: Change the debuff (magical defense reduction) it makes no sense. Make lightning basic attacks chain to nearby enemies. Another reason Q was spammed is for damage.
Clearly the class designs are terrible and even the devs know that the skills aren't worth using. The DPS of some skills was lower than the basic attack. Lightning Strikefor example, was charged for 2.30 seconds and did 162 damage. 2.30 seconds of spamming basic attack did about 190 damage WITHOUT casting time, without semi-animation lock, and gives EE stacks. Fix the damage before A2 or better rework the combat altogether.
Speaking of animation lock, this can be problematic for ranged classes, especially Ranger, forces them to stop moving while run-shooting. You could make it reset back to first attack by spamming Q instead of holding Q, but I think better if it was a passive in weapon skill tree for a held Q attack. What is the red tree for, anyway?
Again, spamming Q or one skill is a bad design. Archeage's archer was the worst, most boring class I've mained due to Endless Arrow spam. Basic attacks should be a filler.
If a player chooses to spam it because the mobs are too weak, or saving the skills for the right time, or whatever reason, that's up to them. Auto attacks can be good for "slow DPS" a boss while the tank is building aggro or exploit a boss mechanic; for example, a dragon with a boring flying phase at 20% HP where we shoot it with cannons until 10%, the leader can instead tell the raid to slow DPS until exactly 21% HP then full DPS with all their cooldowns and buffs ready, in order to kill it or skip the phase.
Thank you for reading.
Edit:
4 months ago in Dev Discussion #51, we've discussed about skills that can be used without cooldown or during cooldown but weaker version. I prefer this kind of "filler" more than spamming basic attacks, at least for some classes or optional builds. I was hesitant to mention this at first because Ashes of Creation doesn't have superarmor, frontal guard, PVP damage reduction, and built-in stats in skills as BDO does, there will be no risk in spamming and it can be too abusive in PVP. If you can make it work, go for it.
I've seen posts like Accessibility for old timers ? wanting to ruin the combat with global cooldown when it's too fast for them. If skills can be used during cooldown, it will enable them to play "lazily" without having to use a low-APM class or buy any IRL devices.
Perhaps not the exact answer to the question, but i wish to tell you one thing: I hate "rotation" as it is used in most of all MMOs. Yeah, simple as that. Having all necessary skills in my hotbar and using them one after the other, over and over again...meehhh. Of all MMOs i played - and i played a lot - i enjoyed the active one in Dungeons and Dragons online the most. Shooting my arrows, dodge, sideroll, shooting, shooting...my Character was alive...well, kind of Not a victim of clicking number 1 to 8 on my keyboard to use the skills.
When i heard that AoC will use a "mix" of both, with quite a lot action combat, i was hooked. So please...
In my opinion, combat shouldn't be as simple as just pressing 'keybind X -> spell Y go boom.'
With the addition of auto-attacks, the game can introduce a wider range of spells and buffs, such as:
- Empowering your next swing (making it stronger, allowing it to hit twice, or enabling cleave).
- Increasing your or decreasing the enemy's auto-attack speed.
- Applying a debuff to the enemy with your next swing.
Auto-attacks can also bring the weapon's attack speed attribute into the game. However, I believe this attribute should be unique to weapons, and perhaps some short-term buffs should be capable of lowering it. Permanent attack speed or haste stats on other armor or accessories are not particularly interesting, as attack speed should be a unique defining characteristic of each weapon.
Furthermore, auto-attacks can open up the possibility of chance-on-hit or proc effects on weapons, armor, or passive skills. This would allow players to create builds centered around their weapon's procs.
Auto-attack could also introduce unique class resources that generated by auto-attacks and can be consumed by spells (like the good ol' rage).
However, auto-attacks would introduce the issue of swing timing, which I consider to be a bad game mechanic. Having to wait for your next auto-attack to maximize your damage before using a skill due to its animation resets the swing timer can be frustrating. I'm unsure about the ideal solution for this problem, maybe one approach could be to incorporate the skipped swings' damage into the spell you used, with the condition that the proc or on-hit effect should wait until your next auto-attack.
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Here are a few additional discussion starters which may help you provide feedback on this topic. Please don’t feel limited by these, and give us any feedback you’d like on this topic:
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
In my opinion basic attacks are crucial to combat over auto attacks because they provide more realism and feel to combat. If you have auto attacks set up, how do weapons separate themselves? In the fighter's showcase you guys showed dual daggers vs a greatsword and the daggers moved faster, were more slashy and dynamic whereas the greatsword was slower but more powerful.
Basic attacks feed into this imo with zero downside. It makes the combat feel more smooth, it provides realism, it puts the players in charge of whether they want to light attack, provide a medium attack or a full heavy attack depending on the combat they're engaging in.
The archer being able to line up a full heavy attack from stealth, the rogue with a heavy attack backstab etc just make the game look and feel better than clicking a button and having auto attacks go off.
The counter-arguments I have seen for having basic attacks in the rotation are that it makes it too high of actions per minute and it makes the game feel almost like you're playing ranked call of duty. From playing ESO and New World, this couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing about swinging a hammer or great axe in new world that feels fast paced lol, but it gives those weapons their feel because when you land them, they have devastating effects.
Your weapons and playstyles have choices. be fast paced with more slashing or stabbing weapons or be slow and methodical with bludgeoning weapons. I just don't see a strong case for auto attacks.
Not a big fan of autoattacks in mmorpgs so far. Best ones so far were in GW2 from my experience.
In games like DnD *attack action* is the bane of all the martials because generally, it is the only thing they can do. Especially early on, it is not the best experience.
Without knowing much about the classes and their kits, my opinion goes like this:
1. Autoattacks for Pure healers should not be important for DPS sake. While i do hold a strong bias towards a more melee-oriented healer playstyle which is what i enjoy, I do think that autoattacks are unnecessary unless they provide a way for you to increase your healing and or defense.
2. If autoattacks are used purely for *white hits* aka passive damage, might aswell not have them and it will be easier to balance the game as a whole. {Annoying balancing of dual wielding miss chance etc.}
3. I do think there is space for classes/archetypes that work off of autoattacking, if you want to live the fantasy of a *enhance your weapons and swing them really fast with on hit effects/unique weapon procs* it just depends on how the combat will work in the end. {I have a hard time imagining a class that relies on autoattacks in a Hybrid based combat system that i do not know that much about more on this in the TLDR part}.
4. Overall autoattacks to me are system of slow and steady passive damage gain that you do when you have nothing else to do on your rotation/or is done passively without you thinking about it {in most cases}.
5. These days people either wanna *chill* while they do their ability rotation and dont mind the downtime, or wanna sweat, squeeze and min-max the fun out of the game. I think it is important to give Skill advantage in the game, but i dont think min-maxing {passive} autoattacks is the best way to do it.
TLDR: Autoattacks in most mmorgps are boring, they bandaid it in a way to enable something passively, like procs or resource generation. Which is RNG that is literally not needed. While it is fun to have RNG procs. To be able to control your character and Know when to do something where it matters should be the important part. Especially in a party environment.
Also an easy fix to *autoattack* builds so they exist even if autoattacks as we knew them were not a thing. Just make abilities that swing fast for small amounts and make them do on-hit effects from abilities.
I think that would make the most sense in a Hybrid combat world. {But than again i dont know if autoattacks are *locked* to your current target or are a cone/skillshot}.
That is my take. Thanks for listening to my TED talk.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2023
What a very important topic indeed.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Basic attacks to me seem obvious. When abilities are on cooldown, auto attacks are used. depending on the personal selection off abilities you have a longer or shorter wait time.
A lot can be done with auto attacks. enhanced AA, buffs, debufs, combo, AOE effect. For instance a Spellsword could have an unlockable passive that the 3rd AA deal bonus magic damage in a cone or horizontal slash. I see Auto Attacks as basicly an ability where you can play around with. Just an idea that pops in: but each weapon type could have an unlockable passive how the AA should behave or enhance. There could be 3 or 5 presets to chose from.another enhancement could be that attacks slow for 10% but deal 10% less damage. The possibilities are endless. Search those limits, go over them and find a sweet spot.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
i feel like i answered this above. Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
Also feel like i answered this allready. Depending on the playstyle. for a fighter AA will be way more important then a mage. some Melee's could probably do without "AA" but instead have a spammable 3-fold ability for example (first 4 seconds): https://youtube.com/watch?v=j5D7fX2gy44. Or the opposite. some 'berserk mode' where you gain attackspeed (character will slash fast for x seconds, but is exhausted for Y seconds like unable to cast offensive abilities or use AA - risk vs reward, right!) Would really appreciate versatility in AA's. Go nuts!
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
This is a fun one, and interesting feedback on the forums.
My short answer is: Basic Attacks Very Important, though strongly dependent on class and situation. Auto Attacks: dislike, especially for PvP, especially for Casters, generally always dislike/ignore.
Basic Attacks to me should be no/low resource attacks that allow for some base DPS that needs to be throttled depending on the situation. A different Basic attacks is good as well. Requiring a basic attack as part of combo/rotation is good as well. Makes you pay more attention, which I like.
That said, some classes it can seem dumb. Wizards having some type of basic flame spell seems dumb and clutters the space in some games. I think some classes should be all about just combos/rotations big, longer cast times, while other should be shorter, faster, weaving with basic/strong attacks and combos/rotations.
I am an altaholic for sure... so I like games where the different classes play totally differently. When the difference between a ranger and a sorcerer is just the animations basically... it isn't as important.
Auto-attacks should be avoided. High DPS melee classes are usually the main culprit. Running circles around people with auto attack on takes little skill and is mostly annoying. Making people have to run and perform basic attacks to score damage makes for a better experience imo. If you do have auto attack, then make manual target switching... auto attack and auto target is boring and lame...
First of all, I see BA as a source of damage potentially equivalent to skills. Why potentially ? Well it will be up to the player to decide on his fighting style and therefore to choose where to place the responsibility for his BA.
Please note, I am not talking about DPS, I am talking here about damage ratio. I can choose a build where 50% of my damage comes from my BA and 50% from my skills and have a DPS of 1000, while another build can do 30%BA/70%S with a DPS of 1200. BA should be a significant source of damage. Depending on your class, BA could be your first source of DPS, but it also couldn't be.
BA would be an essential component in the construction of the fighting style. The responsibility of the BA will depend on the equipment, in particular the weapons. Depending on the importance I want to give to basic attacks, my rotations will be different, I should choose between huge burst VS my longevity to hold the fight, or even, I should choose my adaptability to unexpected situations.
How do I choose the responsibility/importance of my BA ?
We need 2 things:
- a much more shifting mana system than classic MMORPGs.
- characteristics and weapons that greatly impact the mana system and BA damage.
The mana system:
If BA is one side of a coin, mana is the other.
I would see mana as quite different from what we find in the classic MMORPG. Mana would be a resource that, by default, consumes quickly and also regenerates quickly. To give you an idea, if I take a warrior, he could consumes all of his mana in around ten seconds but also regenerates full mana in around twenty seconds.
This vision of mana, which may remind you of the energy of rogues in WoW, is not disturbing if it is possible to strongly impact these parameters (consumption and regeneration).
The importance of having highly shifting mana is the central pillar to combat style customization.
Characteristics and weapons:
Characteristics will typically impact mana consumption and regeneration as well as BA damage.
Weapons would be the key pieces that determine the proportion between BA and use of mana:
Weapons: "BA oriented +"
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ❌
Weapons: "BA oriented"
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ⬆️
Weapons: Balanced
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ⬆️⬆️
Weapons: "Mana oriented"
BA DPS: ⬆️
Mana Aid: ⬆️⬆️⬆️
Weapons: “Mana oriented +”
BA DPS: ❌
Mana Aid: ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
In this model, weapons do not influence skills damage (except through characteristics), they only influence BA damage.
Also, physical and magical damage are totally uncorrelated from BA and skills, BA are not necessarily physical damage and skills are not necessarily magical damage (for me a mage who summons a huge rock on someone's head apply physical damage).
In "mana oriented +" weapons, it would be totally possible to have weapons that do not have offensive BA but in contrary allow you to channel the mana around you to boost your recovery, for example with a 2 handed staff or a book of magic.
To summarize, giving more possibility to play on our mana management, through our BA, would allow a great diversity of choice in our combat styles.
Q: Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
A: I prefer it when weapon types matter. While probably out of the current scope, I would prefer that weapon types have significant enough distinct inherent advantages and disadvantages, that a character would be well advised to carry a few different weapons, and to advance those weapons' skills and enchantments.
Q: Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
A: Of course. There could be some moves or skills that are more appropriate for a certain type of weapon, like riposte, lunge, or feint.
To be clear, I would prefer some kind of auto-attack, so when my arthritic hand seizes up for a moment, I can let go of the keyboard for a couple seconds, stretch my fingers, and then return to the keyboard. I would not want to be absolutely required to constantly and rapidly press buttons.
That said, I would not ask that such would be anything like optimal, or to soften combat at the expense of its most ardent devotees. I just want a chance to play too.
Q: In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
A: I have been clean and sober from EverQuest 19 years, six months, two weeks, and one day. Though that has been a while, it was satisfying for me at the time.
I don't really play fighting games, especially controller games. I prefer more strategic games.
Q: Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
A: As long as basic attacks or especially auto attacks can act as a useful bridge between bouts of more phrenetic attack sequences, I will be satisfied, though again, not at the expense of the "real" combat players.
I'm going to stick with a Q&A style to try and not ramble.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Auto attacks in the MMOs I've previously played (Eve Online, Final Fantasy XI, Ragnarok) generally comprise the bulk of the traditional damage. Skills/Magic/Abilities are typically reserved for specialty big damage or buff/debuff purposes. I'd much rather have a game where tactics and timing in regards to using abilities plays a bigger role than rolling through a rotation DDR style (Looking at you, Final Fantasy XIV).
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
To reiterate, I feel that basic attacks should be the bulk of your standard damage. Skills and magic should be reserved for big damage hits and/or special effects that can be advantageous when timed correctly in fights i.e. pushing a mob at a percentage before it would typically try to heal itself/run away.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would prefer rotation (if there has to be rotation) to be weighted more heavily on basic attacks / auto attacks so that abilities can be truly unique and vary combat.
[*] Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
[*] Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
I feel like both of these questions go together so I'll answer them at once. I really dislike that in MMOs weapons are just stat sticks when they have so much more potential. Each weapon should be unique and have traits that set it apart from the rest, otherwise they are pointless and do nothing but provide separate visuals. One handed weapons should have faster attacks but less reach/smaller forward cone attacks. 2 handed should have slower attacks but more reach/wider cone and more power. Swords should have fast attacks but less damage, axes slower than swords but more damage, Maces slower than axes more damage. Spears Polearms and rapiers can have a narrow cone of attack but further reach than other weapon types. I would also like to see your weapon choice change offensive abilities that have cones or area effects to match that specific weapon. For example, a fighter's whirlwind attack would have a larger radius using a 2 handed sword than it would with a 1 handed sword.
[*] In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
I've never played an MMO that got auto attacks/basic attacks right. They always have felt insignificant or unnecessary due to poor design. Mobas do it well like Predecessor and League of legends. I say that because Mobas allow you to specialize your character the way you want through items and/or talent trees. So you can take a melee fighting character, and buy only attack speed/on hit effect items to strengthen their basic attacks with lifesteal, bonus damage, % max health damage, and debuffs to do good damage consistently over drawn out fights. On the other hand, you could build them with some mix of high damage/ high critical chance and armor penetration for high burst damage basic attacks and skills and they end up being more like an assassin. The second part is having abilities in the game that buff or synergize with basic attacks to make them more useful for certain builds/classes. That's the kind of build customization I would like to see out of an MMO that would make basic attacks relevant.
I like when basic attacks are part of mastering your class. But it is cooler when it is about using it at the right time then using it after evey abiity. For example some abilitys could make your basic abilitys crit for 2-3 seconds or something like that. Another example is what u have already with the mage where you can use them to build up stacks. Basic attack usage should be one of the components that makes the difference between a good and a bad player i liked animation cancelling with basic attacks in eso but im a fan of animation cancelling anyways. For me its a cool way to improve your the performance of a character throught player skill and not stats or gear. But u already said u dont want that so maybe a animation cancelling 2.0 would be cool for some classes. For example fighter or dualist could combine 2 attacks into a combo by using basic attacks between the 2. So for example u use an ability that kicks ur oponent back and becaus you have some augment ur next basic attack after that ability becomes a dash that does normal dmg and applys staggered and your 3rd ability is a attack that does crit dmg on stagered targets. So you made a combo out of 2 abilitys using a basic attack.
I have played every pretty much every mmo on the current market. The combat style I personally felt was the most fun to play was ESO and BDO. BDO does not use an auto attack system to build primary resources. It used a "Skill" which was really just a auto attack that needed to activate in order to regen a resource. Eso used weapon attacks to refile different types of primary resources based on what weapon you were using. the ability to actively regenerate a combat/primary resource mana/stamina/energy is the best style of combat. It makes building a rotation more diverse based on how you want to play and manage your resources. Having only Pots or passive resource regen is very static to me. It also makes pvp combat too simplistic. Beat on the priest until they can't afford the mana to keep their shield up. Lame and way to predictable for both sides of the fight. Combat has evolved past the old wow auto attack system especially in a pvp setting. The eb and flow of resource management in eso (before they servers took a dump) was some of the most fun I have ever had in a mmo. Bdo pvp on the other hand made it to where Croud control was way to overpowering and whomever landed the first stun wins. Making resource management basically nonexistent. That's dog shit too. I would love to see weapon skills and trees be focused on resource management and damage and do away with "auto attacks all together" Mind you this is all based on a dps build perspective.
The rule of two
Sith will rule verra from the shadows
Hello! I have alpha 2 access and im a ranger main in every game i play, and am aiming towards that in ashes of creation as well.
I LOVE basic attacks more than almost anything. They have been my favorite part of any game ive played. I am a league of legends player, and i exclusively play ranged 'adc's who rely on "auto attacks" (leagues name for basic attacks). The ability to deal meaningful damage without the impeding 1sec+ cooldowns or mana / energy costs are incredibly satisfying to me. Using abilities is of course great, but having the skill required to be in a position to deal damage at every second, and only having small widows for movement skills or dodge windows in between is the most satisfying thing to pull off in my opinion.
I main ranger in terraria, jinx / vayne / kog'maw in league of legends, ganyu / yoimiya in genshin impact, archer in black desert online, glaive prime in warframe, scouter / machinist in lost ark, hero damage ev2 in dungeon defenders 2, the list goes on. In every game i play, i prefer basic attacks and their consistency. Even in league of legends i just build attack speed and crit / on hit on whatever ranged champ im forced to play in gamemodes that randomize your champion.
The main point i want to get across is that ive seen a lot of mmo fans hate on basic attacks, and not being an experienced mmo fan myself i guess i cant say much on how it would work, but i want you to know that there are those of us who burn for basic attacks. On a class like the ranger i feel like it would make a lot of sense to at least have the option to maybe build your basic attacks in a skill tree, through items, or maybe as part of the second archetype you pick. Having the option would be awesome for those of us who maybe dislike the cooldown / mana based rotations of the typical mage and cleric.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I havent played many MMORPGs, but in those that i have; basic attacks have been a very clunky and weak attack. I sincerely wish they would have been at least situationally usable, but in all of them there was never a single reason to use them. (Lost ark and Black desert online)
My only comparable mmo experience is as an archer in black desert online. There was a period of time where it had a skill (i cant remember the name), which had a cooldown of 15 seconds. This skill could be used as a weaker version of itself even while it was on cooldown. This meant you could spam it as much as you wanted, and although it was of course weaker than rotating your skills that werent on cooldown, it was an incredibly satisfying source of damage for times when you didnt know which skills to use, when you needed a long range attack, when you were feeling lazy, when you needed to quickly finish off an opponent low on health, or simply when you were farming an area where you were so strong it oneshot anyways.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
If i try to be less biased, i feel like basic attacks should still have a place in MMORPG combat. I think it fits perfectly for farming areas you are way too strong for, when you need low instant damage to finish off enemies without wasting important cooldowns, and as something to optimize if all of your abilities are on cooldown (especially in the early game). Therefore i feel like basic attacks should be really fast, seamless, and not interrupt you too much with big animations, so you can keep the flow of gameplay when farming low level areas or when quickly wanting to finish off an opponent before pulling the next pack.
Now, as someone very biased due to my love for basic attacks: I sincerely wish there is at least an option and a path for us who want to specialize in basic attacks. They are the epitome of consistent damage output, and can have really interesting playstyles and builds surrounding supporting abilities and movement skills. I feel like having a ranged basic attack build not only fits the ranger class itself, but also the freedom of vera that we are trying to create. When a lot of the game content fits the theme of "I dont see why this shouldnt also be a possibility", and when you are creating a world for us to truly immerse ourselves in our own character and your world, i see no reason why a specialized basic attack class/path shouldnt exist.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would love to mainly rely on basic attacks so dont make them too boring haha.
(ive seen people use fractions in this answer so i would prefer a 90/10 split between basic attacks (90) and abilities (10), with all of the abilities either being ultimate attacks, buffs and debuffs, and movement skills)
Hopefully it will enable to play everybodys own style.
Metabuilds are not what i want to copy, for beeing alowwed to participate in a group-fight.
I like to play my own builds, cause creating it and see if it works like i planed beforehand is just as much fun as other achievements.
For example: I liked, in old GuildWars times, to play a Ritualist. There was a way to switch places with an enemie to drop him to your little ghost-team to separatly fight him or othertimes i used the destruction-power of an enemy to heal a teammate/myself. Debuffing other partys was also very fun.
I highly appreciate it, that AoC dosn´t try to reinvent the wheel, but rather take the good things from other games to create a much better whole. That will hopefully be a very stunning world
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2023
(Edit: Also, worth mentioning that different weapons had different CC stats, for example hammers had higher chance to "bonk!" and land a stun, whereas swords had higher chance to paralyze.
Blunt vs Slash vs Piercing weapon types, basically, each type specialize at something.)
Edit:
4 months ago in Dev Discussion #51, we've discussed about skills that can be used without cooldown or during cooldown but weaker version. I prefer this kind of "filler" more than spamming basic attacks, at least for some classes or optional builds. I was hesitant to mention this at first because Ashes of Creation doesn't have superarmor, frontal guard, PVP damage reduction, and built-in stats in skills as BDO does, there will be no risk in spamming and it can be too abusive in PVP. If you can make it work, go for it.
I've seen posts like Accessibility for old timers ? wanting to ruin the combat with global cooldown when it's too fast for them. If skills can be used during cooldown, it will enable them to play "lazily" without having to use a low-APM class or buy any IRL devices.
EDIT 2: To be clear, RNG CC generally is one of the worst combat ideas I've seen in MMOs like BDO, but I think it's forgivable if it's built-in very few skills that are weak and require aiming - like the basic attacks in the GIF above^^ to make them more threatening to walk into, and worth using for more than just damage.
Added these.
@Vaknar Do you "compile a report" from Dev discussions too or who reads them and when, exactly?
@Vaknar Do you "compile a report" from Dev discussions too or who reads them and when, exactly?
Yep, Vaknar's the dude. You'll hear Steven and Margaret talking about the info they've got from the Dev Discussions, and that they have big meetings with the game designers about the feedback.
@Vaknar Do you "compile a report" from Dev discussions too or who reads them and when, exactly?
Yep, Vaknar's the dude. You'll hear Steven and Margaret talking about the info they've got from the Dev Discussions, and that they have big meetings with the game designers about the feedback.
Hiya friends o/
I do! To give you some insight, Dev Discussion topics are almost always provided directly to the community team from our development teams (e.g. Design, Engineering, Art, Narrative, etc.)! After some time, myself and @Roshen will put together a report, in which we pull feedback from the community on the topic!
Once the report is complete, it's shared with the company. It isn't uncommon for some of our developers invested in the topic to want to conduct a meeting and discuss the feedback in further detail as a group
(Side note; I loooove those meetings. It's my privilege and joy to represent the community and your awesome feedback! No pressure, haha!)
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I do! To give you some insight, Dev Discussion topics are almost always provided directly to the community team from our development teams (e.g. Design, Engineering, Art, Narrative, etc.)! After some time, myself and @Roshen will put together a report, in which we pull feedback from the community on the topic!
Once the report is complete, it's shared with the company. It isn't uncommon for some of our developers invested in the topic to want to conduct a meeting and discuss the feedback in further detail as a group
(Side note; I loooove those meetings. It's my privilege and joy to represent the community and your awesome feedback! No pressure, haha!)
Cool! Thank you very much for the detailed response! @daveywavey you too.
Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
I dislike stat sticks, why'd you make art for something you'll never use other than it looks cool sheathed on someones back.
Weapon being meaningful in the combat rotation is a must, just like good abilities. Combos are just that, combos.
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
Yes, auto-attacks are boring, depthless, trivial.
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In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
Dragons Prophet, Outward, TERA to a degree for done well. Most of the genre does it poorly.
Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Yes, actually flush out your weapon system to not be stack sticks and make them meaningful. Basic attacks and Abilities should lead to greater combination chains and to me build up to the use of the ultimate.
And I agree with others here, break up rotations. Combinations and the appropriate use of them are forever superior to rotations, rotations feel boring auto-mated and contributes to the Parsebot mentality, which is a cancerous mentality that needs to be destroyed.
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PagemasterMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2023
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
I don't necessarily believe that basic attack should be apart of any rotation. A player should react with certain attacks and abilities (keystrokes) based on the situation at hand. That being said, A person should be able to build their character how they see fit. Example, I would enjoy playing a class based around "On hit extra attacks" with a secondary of "more base damage" or "haste (attacking quicker)" I would rather have more passives and the abilities that I do have, leaning more towards CC, survivability, etc. Being able to choose how strong, quick, what my basic attack does is a crucial part of combat.
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Both, I think it all depends on the build that you're deciding to go. It seems like mage classes have more damage through their abilities and melee classes through basic attacks traditionally. Being able to choose the direction of your character is crucial. Just because I choose a Fire based Mage class, doesn't mean I want things to ignite with DOT damage, maybe I want to go "PoM Pyro" , blow my CDs and throw two Super heavy hitting abilities at an enemy.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Sometimes they are fillers, they build up to something bigger. Other builds, basic attacks are a huge portion of your damage. The issue that I would have is feeling like I'm spamming my basic attack (or any ability for that matter) on ANY character or Build, because its a keystroke and not an auto attack. Which by all means, is fine, but I don't to have to spam a click or a keystroke.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
It depends on the players build, if they chose to go more "haste" and spam as many basic attacks as possible, that's on them, but there needs to be a middle ground where players don't feel like its spamming. side note to that, If a player decides to go super slow weapons and have a longer CD in between attacks, the damage should be higher per hit.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation
Both, depending on the player build, Either could be important. There should be a baseline and secondaries to a players build. Baseline being, what weapons and armor you're using, the main stats you allocate into and Abilities you choose. Secondary: Dots, Hots, Mitigation, On hit/attack/% Procs, Haste, etc.
Things to touch on/go over:
1. Spamming - don't make players spam keystrokes, unless they choose to - It seems from the last basic attacks update that it did seem spammy. Especially, as a melee player. Part of it goes into Damage output, if melee isn't FULL damage, how many more keystrokes are they having to do? Does melee have full damage on single targets and with multiple targets the damage is split?
2. Let players build their characters how THEY see fit, not how the Devs see fit. Devs should be there to balance and add more to the game for the player to explore.
auto attack is used as a way to put pressure on the enemy , waiting for a convenient moment to procast . I 'd like it better if an auto attack is needed to build a combination of skills . for example, it will replenish resources (mana, rage, and others).
Hello. I am Shenken, gamer for long time and wanted to share my own opinion.
I believe that both Auto-attacks and Basic Attacks are important systems that are in different games currently. But most of all I enjoy when they are made properly. To the point you are able to make a build based on Auto-attacks/Basic attacks only or skip them for just using skills, where they are not used at all.
Wouldn't it be really cool that such feature is actually an option? Not a necessity nor giving you additional bonuses, but it is an option itself?
Whenever I played multiple games timing your attacks and skills was also important or happened automatically for you. My personal best option is to allow either auto-attacks or basic attack, but make the system balanced for all scenarios, meaning when player decides to have auto-attack/basic attack build he should have as strong damage in the end as people who use skills only and approximately same damage as people that mix auto-attacks/basic attacks with skills.
In my gaming career I really loved a nicely evened system, that allowed you to test different builds and options for character creation. If possible, I would love to have that option again. To be able to make completely different builds and test them out in game as I please, either if I want to just spam skills or stop using them and make full auto-attack/basic-attack build , or mix them both up, if I had any choice - I want to choose all options at the same time. Which allows players to have variety of builds. To enjoy different gameplay styles.
In hope that we get very nicely designed combat mechanics, I share opinion as above.
Please let either auto-attacks or basic attacks to be included. But not a necessity, yet an option.
So players can actually play game in 3 scenarios -
1. Auto-attack/Basic attack focus
2. Auto-attack/Basic attack implementation between skills
3. Skills spam only with no basic/auto-attacks
In my opinion this should be a personal gameplay choice. And either we follow one or we switch to another.
Hence why not having Rotations for people that want to have rotations but at the same time allow builds that allow you to simply Auto-attack in the game and still be meaningful?
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
Hi there. It’s a common myth - Nefas had a Q and A about it . It was always an intended part of the game play it seems. But it does present a challange to some players . Which heavy attack builds went some way to mitigate. Thankfully
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
Basic attacks are important to me when the combat design allow for spells to have an high impact when pressed. If there is higher associated cost to my spells/abilities it being either resource cost, ability cooldown, or chance to hit, then auto attacks become very important. However the impact and importance varies on class, archetype role and rotation design for the class.
Take for example a mage might have limited resource pool to cast a certain number of spells before they need to recover mana via spell, potion or passive regen. During combat it becomes import to track my resource expenditure and then I need to make a choice when to use my auto attacks. If I always have resources to press my spells then auto attack's aren't important and should not be part of my rotation.
A good example of would be a frost mage in retail wow vs classic wow. In retail there is no auto attack feature and you are always pressing your filler spell of frost bolt until a certain design element is met. Which then you choose another ability to press. While in classic you are using frost bolt until your run out mana or hit a % where you choose to your auto attack. This allows for player choice.
For classes where an auto attack typically generate my spending resource then auto attacks are import in term of rotation but loose weight in feel. They become mandatory and less of a choice but do have more import presence in term of combat rotation.
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
It all depends of feel of importance of spells and the balance strength of the auto attacks. Both designs can be fun when payoffs feel rewarding. However when you do something passively and it doesn't the most damage it doesn't feel rewarding.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
This depends on the pace of combat your are going for. If you are looking for a more fast paced game then ability should always be part of the rotation. If you are looking for a more paced combat experience then auto attacks have importance in your rotation.
I think in MMORPGs auto attacks just don't work. I think Archeage has done it the better having a basic skill with a low cd that you can utilize when your rotation is down so that you aren't just useless when you have cds. Especially with ancestral versions that let you change up its function.
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In some it has been the main way of dealing damage and farm mobs and abilities were there to make it easier and more fun. This is in my opinion quite a basic system and gets old rather quickly. In others, you only use auto attacks until you learn enough skills to be able to omit using them completely. This makes them obsolete so in my opinion also not a very good solution.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Auto-attacks could serve a very interesting purpose if they can be seamlessly involved in a rotation especially for a melee class. If implemented correctly, auto-attacks might increase the damage potential of a rotation. This might raise the skill ceiling for certain classes. Creating skills which empower autoattacks is also a great way to make players think of ways to implement these autoattacks into their rotation.
I think caster classes should also be able to work with autoattacks but not necessarily. Slow casters would probably choose to omit autoattacks altogether.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would say it depends on the class you are playing. For ranger I would say autoattacks should be majority of damage done on most builds and abilities should focus on enhancing those attacks. For classes like rogue and fighter I would like to see a wide variability on how autoattack heavy you want your build to be. For caster classes I would expect empowered autoattacks to be something you can spec into but not necessary to include in your build.
Overall I think autoattacks should definitely be a part of combat and if implemented correctly can add a lot of depth and make combat much more interesting. This being said, I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution across all playable classes.
Yes, I like when my weapon is meaningful. In a short TTK game like BDO it would be fine even if weapons weren't class locked, the class locking just helps because the abilities can all be very physical 'You are using this weapon and it defines your class sort of', as it is in Throne and Liberty. I'm not asking for that in Ashes, but if the TTK is long, unless the ability animations are also long (which I haven't seen so far), one of two things will happen. Either (1) we will be provided with a different ability (maybe two!) on very short 'cooldowns' that will take up the exact role of the basic attack, but will be Archetype based instead of weapon based. I would be fine with this if the player was choosing 'Archetype Basic vs Weapon Basic', but I don't want to carry around a weapon only to then spam the 'Quick Attack of my Class'...
2) We will spend much more time dodging and running around without actually attacking, and trying to get as much Cooldown Reduction as possible and with a lot of mana (or I guess mana will recharge based on Basic hit, which I don't even want to think about balancing relative to Wand/Staff and everything else).
I don't like either of the above, which is probably why I play the types of game I play.
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
I don't care as much here other than my usual unreasonable response below:
TP GAUGE. WEAPON SKILLS. RAAAGH. WHY ARE GAMES DESIGNED WITHOUT THIS IN 2024?
I'm not being serious. I know why. It's too complicated. So it goes. If we're not getting anything equivalent, I don't really care what else weapons technically do beyond what has been promised, though I have many many opinions on exactly what the procs should do somewhere around, and I won't request the balance headache of 'making a Class skill work differently depending on the range of the equipped weapon' or anything like that (apparently people find this to be less complicated, in my data gathering, I still do not understand how that is so, but they're adamant, so I believe them).
In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
My bias stands, if I play it, I consider it to have been done well or well enough. If it wasn't done well enough, I don't play it. So, to rank the ones I play or played enough to say stuff about in terms of how well they do it, and explicitly not factoring the TP Gauge of FFXI into the 'scoring':
?????? ??? ???????: Winner, by far. Can't say more. I'm sure Dev Team knows already.
TERA (therefore winner by double caveat): This game's 'basic attacks' matter only in hard to explain ways, for me, but still. And yet, an excerpt from its wiki relative to 'Pre Awakening' (I just call all these things 'awakening' now. They're gonna get me to start calling things "Cultivation" too at this rate)
"There are three basic attack skills: Double Cut, Skyfall and Circle of Steel. All have powerlinks for next skill, so they should be cast in that order. If you run out of skills to use, just cast Combo Attack to reduce all basic cooldown by 0.5 seconds."
Predecessor (MOBA): What I hope for in all MMOs, but accept that some others maybe don't want. Mages get weaker Basic Attacks with no boosting abilities without giving up big blast power, but they can through items, which count as the Weapons. Junglers and tanks get 'this is going to regain me health eventually somehow or lower your power'. Bruisers get Shred and bleed, Assassins get 'if I keep hitting you I get movespeed', Carries get 'I can speed it up or slow you down to kill you faster'. Beautiful. They have base skills around these things and then certain items take the role of the 'Weapon', so it has the same result mechanically. Basically, my Sevarog almost always has a different Hammer conceptually, except when building for pure tanking/annoyance when I keep 'the default Hammer'.
Neverwinter: What I'd settle for if not for the True Winner. A lot more speed on the abilities, but it leads to low adaptation and 'rotations', with only the longer cooldown things acting almost entirely as 'things to alternate in a certain slot for more damage. The weapons are still not pure stat sticks at least... I think. To be honest I never even bothered to try to understand this much. Neverwinter weapon stat descriptions stymie even me. One of the only times where I just go 'does it have a cool name? Is it a rarer color? Is the game suggesting I equip it? Equipped!' despite there actually being some difference... probably. I remember not doing that a few times, but I gave up eventually.
Onigiri: Weapons are integral, if unrealistic, since they define you almost entirely. Want to use Spear? Build stats that work with it. Want to use Twin Swords? Same deal. Your 'class' is therefore defined basically by your preference. The Weapons are there to give you skills thematically appropriate to them, and affect your ability and movement. So if I build for 'Healing and Crit' and take Staff + Twin Swords, anything else I take will be my utility weapons (you get four at a time, I could take 2 Staff and also 2 different Twin Swords, though). They DO have attack values though, and those attack values factor into everything the specific weapon does, so if I carry 'two sets of Twin Swords' I have to make sure that they are both strong, or the weaker one's skills will just be fairly weaker, they're not pulling ONLY from my base stats. It's fun, but middling design, I think.
FFXI: If Weapon Skills are ignored, they're not even 'stat sticks', they're just for your auto-attacks, they don't give you additional stats and their damage isn't factored into your (non Weapon) 'skills' other than the fact that some of them are based around enhancing your Auto-Attack (this is distinguishable for anyone cursorily checking by the fact that there are no 'Job Skills' in FFXI, when I say 'skill' I mean 'Job Ability' or 'Job Trait'). Basically, the thing that matters here is flavor moreso than substance, if you ignore the WeaponSkill part. (a large part of my fear/concern for Ashes is that it will try to do something closer to this, but then no TP gauge, and I'll get WoW combat, but even that is better than...). What they do often have is 'different base damage', 'Accuracy Differences', and 'proc effects', but 90% of the time you care about them due to the Weapon Skill/TP Gauge system and the Big Numbers. Some late game ones offer nice defensive stats on certain classes.
Insert Generic Semi-Modern Korean MMO Here:
Whether weapons are class locked or not, it's almost all '1920% of Base Damage for the first Hit, then 224% damage for hits 2 and 3'. Oh, except Lost Ark which eases you into the percentages later. Note, I have no problem with the percentages at all unless the weapons themselves have no true underlying effects of their own ('big damage and/or attack speed bonuses don't count here). These all blend together in my head, honestly, I don't play these games for long except for 'studying' and this part seemed simplistic enough to not spend much time thinking about. Basically, if I'm getting class locked weapons with percentage base damage class skills, it's fine, but as this would be utterly insane in a Free Weapon Choice game... you could say that I 'only hate this in Ashes'.
Special Mention - Guild Wars 2:
Mm, creamy and homogenous.
This gets onto the list as the 'done poorly'. It works for the game, but full disclosure, I have not kept up with the current state of this game at all. Not my thing. This is probably part of why. I'm sure someone can correct me on how GW2 weapons matter.
Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Synergy. Procs. Specialization. Build distinction. Doesn't have to be much. I don't actually care if it's basics or autos, personally. Who even 'stops attacking when they are in range' unless their attack won't cancel when they press something else or the enemy has a strong counterattack or 'thorns-like' effect? And since enemies should probably be able to counterattack skills, even more reason to have your swinging as basically a toggle'
As a controller main, the difference between 'Hold R2 to repeatedly swing weapon' and 'Press R1 to start swinging weapon, cancel with OtherButton' is minimal. I guess the second one allows slightly more options in a Tab Target mode and might be a little less of a dexterity requirement.
I don't really think there's anywhere to improve these mechanically beyond where they have reached in certain games. They're already performing their exact perfect function in a smooth and intuitive way. if one doesn't like that, I'd wager that the person also isn't very much a fan of having them be meaningful at all.
Or they want to play Absolver/BDO, I guess, which is a whole different kettle of fish, which I hope will be classed as a Mace or Hammer.
*slaps <t> around with a large trout*
In the latest gameplay video, the mages had 15 skills in hotbar, yet they chose to spam Q (basic attack) most of the time. It looked as if the 15 skills are the fillers, when it should be the other way around.
If the Q-spam was for Elemental Empowerment stacks, then this skill needs to go away or get reworked. Just the fact that it can hard CC (Frozen) enemies with unavoidable tab-target is bad enough already. Remove or rework the stacks too, because the current design is not intuitive. If I want to freeze a target, I want it frozen NOW. You can make the combat complex without annoying minigames. I can already imagine how unfun it will be fighting mages on a melee class while permanently slowed from unavoidable Chilled stacks. Slow debuff is a strong tool to fight fast classes on an equal speed. But where is the counterplay or risk/reward in landing/dodging a slow debuff from a spammable targeted attack?
Rework idea for Elemental Empowerment:
1- Make it increase the basic attack damage and the attack type becomes elemental, so that some classes are better than others at some weapons. In the Tank showcase video, the tank pulled mobs with a wand, it doesn't look right. Give tank its own method of pulling; a spammable Taunt, or ranged attack, or a buff that changes the form of basic attack, like Sacred Hammering (shown in image below) from Dragon Nest.
in DN, weapons have a weight(superarmor break) and can extend CC combo with basic attacks. Ranged weapons can't, but attacks have enough weight to push down a flinching/staggering enemy. The melee vs ranged balance makes sense to me. I know combo-based combat is not what Ashes of Creation is aiming to make. It doesn't need to be copy-paste, just take inspiration from this if you want basic attacks to be relevant for all classes.
(Edit: Also, worth mentioning that different weapons had different CC stats, for example hammers had higher chance to "bonk!" and land a stun, whereas swords had higher chance to paralyze.
Blunt vs Slash vs Piercing weapon types, basically, each type specialize at something.)
EDIT 2: To be clear, RNG CC generally is one of the worst combat ideas I've seen in MMOs like BDO, but I think it's forgivable if it's built-in very few skills that are weak and require aiming - like the basic attacks in the GIF above^^ to make them more threatening to walk into, and worth using for more than just damage.
2- Instead of changing element based on the element of last used skill, let us choose the element with A/W/D keys after pressing the skill. Similar to "Breath of the Spirit" Archer skill from BDO, if you need reference. But with the freedom to change element mid-combat by pressing the skill again. Press S to deactivate it.
Players don't like reading, make it intuitive with 3 elements appearing around the character as explained in my amazing paint drawing below.
The weapon is then engulfed in flaming/lightning/frosty(or watery) effects and changes the color and sound of the attacks. Should it consume mana constantly? Not necessarily because basic attacking should remain just a filler. No class (or DPS class) should run out of damage skills to use, and the number of skills doesn't need to be equal for all classes, since some classes are faster APM than others.
3- Now what should the elements do? that's up to you. I only dislike the easy and limitless accessibility to slows and hard cc in the ice element. Maybe you could make Chilled stack only applicable on the last combo attack (for the wand, last attack is the sixth attack, but it hits 3 times) 5 chilled just refreshes the accumulated slows. Frozen CC should not be accessed from Chilled stacks, but it could maybe increase the duration of Frozen or inflicts Frostbite debuff that increases received damage like in Elden Ring's Frostbite and Dragon Nest's Frostbite (in DN, ice mage was an important support class in raids because of this. A mage class that doesn't require high gear or damage to get picked in raids, very unique design, it was a good game...).
My idea for lightning element is: Change the debuff (magical defense reduction) it makes no sense. Make lightning basic attacks chain to nearby enemies.
Another reason Q was spammed is for damage.
Clearly the class designs are terrible and even the devs know that the skills aren't worth using. The DPS of some skills was lower than the basic attack. Lightning Strike for example, was charged for 2.30 seconds and did 162 damage. 2.30 seconds of spamming basic attack did about 190 damage WITHOUT casting time, without semi-animation lock, and gives EE stacks. Fix the damage before A2 or better rework the combat altogether.
Speaking of animation lock, this can be problematic for ranged classes, especially Ranger, forces them to stop moving while run-shooting. You could make it reset back to first attack by spamming Q instead of holding Q, but I think better if it was a passive in weapon skill tree for a held Q attack. What is the red tree for, anyway?
Again, spamming Q or one skill is a bad design. Archeage's archer was the worst, most boring class I've mained due to Endless Arrow spam. Basic attacks should be a filler.
If a player chooses to spam it because the mobs are too weak, or saving the skills for the right time, or whatever reason, that's up to them.
Auto attacks can be good for "slow DPS" a boss while the tank is building aggro or exploit a boss mechanic; for example, a dragon with a boring flying phase at 20% HP where we shoot it with cannons until 10%, the leader can instead tell the raid to slow DPS until exactly 21% HP then full DPS with all their cooldowns and buffs ready, in order to kill it or skip the phase.
Thank you for reading.
Edit:
4 months ago in Dev Discussion #51, we've discussed about skills that can be used without cooldown or during cooldown but weaker version. I prefer this kind of "filler" more than spamming basic attacks, at least for some classes or optional builds. I was hesitant to mention this at first because Ashes of Creation doesn't have superarmor, frontal guard, PVP damage reduction, and built-in stats in skills as BDO does, there will be no risk in spamming and it can be too abusive in PVP. If you can make it work, go for it.
I've seen posts like Accessibility for old timers ? wanting to ruin the combat with global cooldown when it's too fast for them. If skills can be used during cooldown, it will enable them to play "lazily" without having to use a low-APM class or buy any IRL devices.
When i heard that AoC will use a "mix" of both, with quite a lot action combat, i was hooked. So please...
With the addition of auto-attacks, the game can introduce a wider range of spells and buffs, such as:
- Empowering your next swing (making it stronger, allowing it to hit twice, or enabling cleave).
- Increasing your or decreasing the enemy's auto-attack speed.
- Applying a debuff to the enemy with your next swing.
Auto-attacks can also bring the weapon's attack speed attribute into the game. However, I believe this attribute should be unique to weapons, and perhaps some short-term buffs should be capable of lowering it. Permanent attack speed or haste stats on other armor or accessories are not particularly interesting, as attack speed should be a unique defining characteristic of each weapon.
Furthermore, auto-attacks can open up the possibility of chance-on-hit or proc effects on weapons, armor, or passive skills. This would allow players to create builds centered around their weapon's procs.
Auto-attack could also introduce unique class resources that generated by auto-attacks and can be consumed by spells (like the good ol' rage).
However, auto-attacks would introduce the issue of swing timing, which I consider to be a bad game mechanic. Having to wait for your next auto-attack to maximize your damage before using a skill due to its animation resets the swing timer can be frustrating. I'm unsure about the ideal solution for this problem, maybe one approach could be to incorporate the skipped swings' damage into the spell you used, with the condition that the proc or on-hit effect should wait until your next auto-attack.
In my opinion basic attacks are crucial to combat over auto attacks because they provide more realism and feel to combat. If you have auto attacks set up, how do weapons separate themselves? In the fighter's showcase you guys showed dual daggers vs a greatsword and the daggers moved faster, were more slashy and dynamic whereas the greatsword was slower but more powerful.
Basic attacks feed into this imo with zero downside. It makes the combat feel more smooth, it provides realism, it puts the players in charge of whether they want to light attack, provide a medium attack or a full heavy attack depending on the combat they're engaging in.
The archer being able to line up a full heavy attack from stealth, the rogue with a heavy attack backstab etc just make the game look and feel better than clicking a button and having auto attacks go off.
The counter-arguments I have seen for having basic attacks in the rotation are that it makes it too high of actions per minute and it makes the game feel almost like you're playing ranked call of duty. From playing ESO and New World, this couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing about swinging a hammer or great axe in new world that feels fast paced lol, but it gives those weapons their feel because when you land them, they have devastating effects.
Your weapons and playstyles have choices. be fast paced with more slashing or stabbing weapons or be slow and methodical with bludgeoning weapons. I just don't see a strong case for auto attacks.
In games like DnD *attack action* is the bane of all the martials because generally, it is the only thing they can do. Especially early on, it is not the best experience.
Without knowing much about the classes and their kits, my opinion goes like this:
1. Autoattacks for Pure healers should not be important for DPS sake. While i do hold a strong bias towards a more melee-oriented healer playstyle which is what i enjoy, I do think that autoattacks are unnecessary unless they provide a way for you to increase your healing and or defense.
2. If autoattacks are used purely for *white hits* aka passive damage, might aswell not have them and it will be easier to balance the game as a whole. {Annoying balancing of dual wielding miss chance etc.}
3. I do think there is space for classes/archetypes that work off of autoattacking, if you want to live the fantasy of a *enhance your weapons and swing them really fast with on hit effects/unique weapon procs* it just depends on how the combat will work in the end. {I have a hard time imagining a class that relies on autoattacks in a Hybrid based combat system that i do not know that much about more on this in the TLDR part}.
4. Overall autoattacks to me are system of slow and steady passive damage gain that you do when you have nothing else to do on your rotation/or is done passively without you thinking about it {in most cases}.
5. These days people either wanna *chill* while they do their ability rotation and dont mind the downtime, or wanna sweat, squeeze and min-max the fun out of the game. I think it is important to give Skill advantage in the game, but i dont think min-maxing {passive} autoattacks is the best way to do it.
TLDR: Autoattacks in most mmorgps are boring, they bandaid it in a way to enable something passively, like procs or resource generation. Which is RNG that is literally not needed. While it is fun to have RNG procs. To be able to control your character and Know when to do something where it matters should be the important part. Especially in a party environment.
Also an easy fix to *autoattack* builds so they exist even if autoattacks as we knew them were not a thing. Just make abilities that swing fast for small amounts and make them do on-hit effects from abilities.
I think that would make the most sense in a Hybrid combat world. {But than again i dont know if autoattacks are *locked* to your current target or are a cone/skillshot}.
That is my take. Thanks for listening to my TED talk.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Basic attacks to me seem obvious. When abilities are on cooldown, auto attacks are used. depending on the personal selection off abilities you have a longer or shorter wait time.
A lot can be done with auto attacks. enhanced AA, buffs, debufs, combo, AOE effect. For instance a Spellsword could have an unlockable passive that the 3rd AA deal bonus magic damage in a cone or horizontal slash. I see Auto Attacks as basicly an ability where you can play around with. Just an idea that pops in: but each weapon type could have an unlockable passive how the AA should behave or enhance. There could be 3 or 5 presets to chose from.another enhancement could be that attacks slow for 10% but deal 10% less damage. The possibilities are endless. Search those limits, go over them and find a sweet spot.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
i feel like i answered this above.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
Also feel like i answered this allready. Depending on the playstyle. for a fighter AA will be way more important then a mage. some Melee's could probably do without "AA" but instead have a spammable 3-fold ability for example (first 4 seconds): https://youtube.com/watch?v=j5D7fX2gy44. Or the opposite. some 'berserk mode' where you gain attackspeed (character will slash fast for x seconds, but is exhausted for Y seconds like unable to cast offensive abilities or use AA - risk vs reward, right!) Would really appreciate versatility in AA's. Go nuts!
As Ashes is super dynamic. So should AA's be
This is a fun one, and interesting feedback on the forums.
My short answer is: Basic Attacks Very Important, though strongly dependent on class and situation. Auto Attacks: dislike, especially for PvP, especially for Casters, generally always dislike/ignore.
Basic Attacks to me should be no/low resource attacks that allow for some base DPS that needs to be throttled depending on the situation. A different Basic attacks is good as well. Requiring a basic attack as part of combo/rotation is good as well. Makes you pay more attention, which I like.
That said, some classes it can seem dumb. Wizards having some type of basic flame spell seems dumb and clutters the space in some games. I think some classes should be all about just combos/rotations big, longer cast times, while other should be shorter, faster, weaving with basic/strong attacks and combos/rotations.
I am an altaholic for sure... so I like games where the different classes play totally differently. When the difference between a ranger and a sorcerer is just the animations basically... it isn't as important.
Auto-attacks should be avoided. High DPS melee classes are usually the main culprit. Running circles around people with auto attack on takes little skill and is mostly annoying. Making people have to run and perform basic attacks to score damage makes for a better experience imo. If you do have auto attack, then make manual target switching... auto attack and auto target is boring and lame...
BA : basic attack
First of all, I see BA as a source of damage potentially equivalent to skills. Why potentially ? Well it will be up to the player to decide on his fighting style and therefore to choose where to place the responsibility for his BA.
Please note, I am not talking about DPS, I am talking here about damage ratio. I can choose a build where 50% of my damage comes from my BA and 50% from my skills and have a DPS of 1000, while another build can do 30%BA/70%S with a DPS of 1200. BA should be a significant source of damage. Depending on your class, BA could be your first source of DPS, but it also couldn't be.
BA would be an essential component in the construction of the fighting style. The responsibility of the BA will depend on the equipment, in particular the weapons. Depending on the importance I want to give to basic attacks, my rotations will be different, I should choose between huge burst VS my longevity to hold the fight, or even, I should choose my adaptability to unexpected situations.
How do I choose the responsibility/importance of my BA ?
We need 2 things:
- a much more shifting mana system than classic MMORPGs.
- characteristics and weapons that greatly impact the mana system and BA damage.
The mana system:
If BA is one side of a coin, mana is the other.
I would see mana as quite different from what we find in the classic MMORPG. Mana would be a resource that, by default, consumes quickly and also regenerates quickly.
To give you an idea, if I take a warrior, he could consumes all of his mana in around ten seconds but also regenerates full mana in around twenty seconds.
This vision of mana, which may remind you of the energy of rogues in WoW, is not disturbing if it is possible to strongly impact these parameters (consumption and regeneration).
The importance of having highly shifting mana is the central pillar to combat style customization.
Characteristics and weapons:
Characteristics will typically impact mana consumption and regeneration as well as BA damage.
Weapons would be the key pieces that determine the proportion between BA and use of mana:
Weapons: "BA oriented +"
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ❌
Weapons: "BA oriented"
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ⬆️
Weapons: Balanced
BA DPS: ⬆️⬆️
Mana help: ⬆️⬆️
Weapons: "Mana oriented"
BA DPS: ⬆️
Mana Aid: ⬆️⬆️⬆️
Weapons: “Mana oriented +”
BA DPS: ❌
Mana Aid: ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
In this model, weapons do not influence skills damage (except through characteristics), they only influence BA damage.
Also, physical and magical damage are totally uncorrelated from BA and skills, BA are not necessarily physical damage and skills are not necessarily magical damage (for me a mage who summons a huge rock on someone's head apply physical damage).
In "mana oriented +" weapons, it would be totally possible to have weapons that do not have offensive BA but in contrary allow you to channel the mana around you to boost your recovery, for example with a 2 handed staff or a book of magic.
To summarize, giving more possibility to play on our mana management, through our BA, would allow a great diversity of choice in our combat styles.
A: I prefer it when weapon types matter. While probably out of the current scope, I would prefer that weapon types have significant enough distinct inherent advantages and disadvantages, that a character would be well advised to carry a few different weapons, and to advance those weapons' skills and enchantments.
Q: Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
A: Of course. There could be some moves or skills that are more appropriate for a certain type of weapon, like riposte, lunge, or feint.
To be clear, I would prefer some kind of auto-attack, so when my arthritic hand seizes up for a moment, I can let go of the keyboard for a couple seconds, stretch my fingers, and then return to the keyboard. I would not want to be absolutely required to constantly and rapidly press buttons.
That said, I would not ask that such would be anything like optimal, or to soften combat at the expense of its most ardent devotees. I just want a chance to play too.
Q: In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
A: I have been clean and sober from EverQuest 19 years, six months, two weeks, and one day. Though that has been a while, it was satisfying for me at the time.
I don't really play fighting games, especially controller games. I prefer more strategic games.
Q: Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
A: As long as basic attacks or especially auto attacks can act as a useful bridge between bouts of more phrenetic attack sequences, I will be satisfied, though again, not at the expense of the "real" combat players.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Auto attacks in the MMOs I've previously played (Eve Online, Final Fantasy XI, Ragnarok) generally comprise the bulk of the traditional damage. Skills/Magic/Abilities are typically reserved for specialty big damage or buff/debuff purposes. I'd much rather have a game where tactics and timing in regards to using abilities plays a bigger role than rolling through a rotation DDR style (Looking at you, Final Fantasy XIV).
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
To reiterate, I feel that basic attacks should be the bulk of your standard damage. Skills and magic should be reserved for big damage hits and/or special effects that can be advantageous when timed correctly in fights i.e. pushing a mob at a percentage before it would typically try to heal itself/run away.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would prefer rotation (if there has to be rotation) to be weighted more heavily on basic attacks / auto attacks so that abilities can be truly unique and vary combat.
[*] Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
I feel like both of these questions go together so I'll answer them at once. I really dislike that in MMOs weapons are just stat sticks when they have so much more potential. Each weapon should be unique and have traits that set it apart from the rest, otherwise they are pointless and do nothing but provide separate visuals. One handed weapons should have faster attacks but less reach/smaller forward cone attacks. 2 handed should have slower attacks but more reach/wider cone and more power. Swords should have fast attacks but less damage, axes slower than swords but more damage, Maces slower than axes more damage. Spears Polearms and rapiers can have a narrow cone of attack but further reach than other weapon types. I would also like to see your weapon choice change offensive abilities that have cones or area effects to match that specific weapon. For example, a fighter's whirlwind attack would have a larger radius using a 2 handed sword than it would with a 1 handed sword.
[*] In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
I've never played an MMO that got auto attacks/basic attacks right. They always have felt insignificant or unnecessary due to poor design. Mobas do it well like Predecessor and League of legends. I say that because Mobas allow you to specialize your character the way you want through items and/or talent trees. So you can take a melee fighting character, and buy only attack speed/on hit effect items to strengthen their basic attacks with lifesteal, bonus damage, % max health damage, and debuffs to do good damage consistently over drawn out fights. On the other hand, you could build them with some mix of high damage/ high critical chance and armor penetration for high burst damage basic attacks and skills and they end up being more like an assassin. The second part is having abilities in the game that buff or synergize with basic attacks to make them more useful for certain builds/classes. That's the kind of build customization I would like to see out of an MMO that would make basic attacks relevant.
The rule of two
Sith will rule verra from the shadows
I LOVE basic attacks more than almost anything. They have been my favorite part of any game ive played. I am a league of legends player, and i exclusively play ranged 'adc's who rely on "auto attacks" (leagues name for basic attacks). The ability to deal meaningful damage without the impeding 1sec+ cooldowns or mana / energy costs are incredibly satisfying to me. Using abilities is of course great, but having the skill required to be in a position to deal damage at every second, and only having small widows for movement skills or dodge windows in between is the most satisfying thing to pull off in my opinion.
I main ranger in terraria, jinx / vayne / kog'maw in league of legends, ganyu / yoimiya in genshin impact, archer in black desert online, glaive prime in warframe, scouter / machinist in lost ark, hero damage ev2 in dungeon defenders 2, the list goes on. In every game i play, i prefer basic attacks and their consistency. Even in league of legends i just build attack speed and crit / on hit on whatever ranged champ im forced to play in gamemodes that randomize your champion.
The main point i want to get across is that ive seen a lot of mmo fans hate on basic attacks, and not being an experienced mmo fan myself i guess i cant say much on how it would work, but i want you to know that there are those of us who burn for basic attacks. On a class like the ranger i feel like it would make a lot of sense to at least have the option to maybe build your basic attacks in a skill tree, through items, or maybe as part of the second archetype you pick. Having the option would be awesome for those of us who maybe dislike the cooldown / mana based rotations of the typical mage and cleric.
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I havent played many MMORPGs, but in those that i have; basic attacks have been a very clunky and weak attack. I sincerely wish they would have been at least situationally usable, but in all of them there was never a single reason to use them. (Lost ark and Black desert online)
My only comparable mmo experience is as an archer in black desert online. There was a period of time where it had a skill (i cant remember the name), which had a cooldown of 15 seconds. This skill could be used as a weaker version of itself even while it was on cooldown. This meant you could spam it as much as you wanted, and although it was of course weaker than rotating your skills that werent on cooldown, it was an incredibly satisfying source of damage for times when you didnt know which skills to use, when you needed a long range attack, when you were feeling lazy, when you needed to quickly finish off an opponent low on health, or simply when you were farming an area where you were so strong it oneshot anyways.
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
If i try to be less biased, i feel like basic attacks should still have a place in MMORPG combat. I think it fits perfectly for farming areas you are way too strong for, when you need low instant damage to finish off enemies without wasting important cooldowns, and as something to optimize if all of your abilities are on cooldown (especially in the early game). Therefore i feel like basic attacks should be really fast, seamless, and not interrupt you too much with big animations, so you can keep the flow of gameplay when farming low level areas or when quickly wanting to finish off an opponent before pulling the next pack.
Now, as someone very biased due to my love for basic attacks: I sincerely wish there is at least an option and a path for us who want to specialize in basic attacks. They are the epitome of consistent damage output, and can have really interesting playstyles and builds surrounding supporting abilities and movement skills. I feel like having a ranged basic attack build not only fits the ranger class itself, but also the freedom of vera that we are trying to create. When a lot of the game content fits the theme of "I dont see why this shouldnt also be a possibility", and when you are creating a world for us to truly immerse ourselves in our own character and your world, i see no reason why a specialized basic attack class/path shouldnt exist.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I would love to mainly rely on basic attacks
(ive seen people use fractions in this answer so i would prefer a 90/10 split between basic attacks (90) and abilities (10), with all of the abilities either being ultimate attacks, buffs and debuffs, and movement skills)
Metabuilds are not what i want to copy, for beeing alowwed to participate in a group-fight.
I like to play my own builds, cause creating it and see if it works like i planed beforehand is just as much fun as other achievements.
For example: I liked, in old GuildWars times, to play a Ritualist. There was a way to switch places with an enemie to drop him to your little ghost-team to separatly fight him or othertimes i used the destruction-power of an enemy to heal a teammate/myself. Debuffing other partys was also very fun.
I highly appreciate it, that AoC dosn´t try to reinvent the wheel, but rather take the good things from other games to create a much better whole. That will hopefully be a very stunning world
Added these.
@Vaknar Do you "compile a report" from Dev discussions too or who reads them and when, exactly?
Yep, Vaknar's the dude. You'll hear Steven and Margaret talking about the info they've got from the Dev Discussions, and that they have big meetings with the game designers about the feedback.
Hiya friends o/
I do! To give you some insight, Dev Discussion topics are almost always provided directly to the community team from our development teams (e.g. Design, Engineering, Art, Narrative, etc.)! After some time, myself and @Roshen will put together a report, in which we pull feedback from the community on the topic!
Once the report is complete, it's shared with the company. It isn't uncommon for some of our developers invested in the topic to want to conduct a meeting and discuss the feedback in further detail as a group
(Side note; I loooove those meetings. It's my privilege and joy to represent the community and your awesome feedback! No pressure, haha!)
Cool! Thank you very much for the detailed response!
@daveywavey you too.
I dislike stat sticks, why'd you make art for something you'll never use other than it looks cool sheathed on someones back.
Weapon being meaningful in the combat rotation is a must, just like good abilities. Combos are just that, combos.
Yes, auto-attacks are boring, depthless, trivial.
[- In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
Dragons Prophet, Outward, TERA to a degree for done well. Most of the genre does it poorly.
Yes, actually flush out your weapon system to not be stack sticks and make them meaningful. Basic attacks and Abilities should lead to greater combination chains and to me build up to the use of the ultimate.
And I agree with others here, break up rotations. Combinations and the appropriate use of them are forever superior to rotations, rotations feel boring auto-mated and contributes to the Parsebot mentality, which is a cancerous mentality that needs to be destroyed.
2. Let players build their characters how THEY see fit, not how the Devs see fit. Devs should be there to balance and add more to the game for the player to explore.
I believe that both Auto-attacks and Basic Attacks are important systems that are in different games currently. But most of all I enjoy when they are made properly. To the point you are able to make a build based on Auto-attacks/Basic attacks only or skip them for just using skills, where they are not used at all.
Wouldn't it be really cool that such feature is actually an option? Not a necessity nor giving you additional bonuses, but it is an option itself?
Whenever I played multiple games timing your attacks and skills was also important or happened automatically for you. My personal best option is to allow either auto-attacks or basic attack, but make the system balanced for all scenarios, meaning when player decides to have auto-attack/basic attack build he should have as strong damage in the end as people who use skills only and approximately same damage as people that mix auto-attacks/basic attacks with skills.
In my gaming career I really loved a nicely evened system, that allowed you to test different builds and options for character creation. If possible, I would love to have that option again. To be able to make completely different builds and test them out in game as I please, either if I want to just spam skills or stop using them and make full auto-attack/basic-attack build , or mix them both up, if I had any choice - I want to choose all options at the same time. Which allows players to have variety of builds. To enjoy different gameplay styles.
In hope that we get very nicely designed combat mechanics, I share opinion as above.
Please let either auto-attacks or basic attacks to be included. But not a necessity, yet an option.
So players can actually play game in 3 scenarios -
1. Auto-attack/Basic attack focus
2. Auto-attack/Basic attack implementation between skills
3. Skills spam only with no basic/auto-attacks
In my opinion this should be a personal gameplay choice. And either we follow one or we switch to another.
Hence why not having Rotations for people that want to have rotations but at the same time allow builds that allow you to simply Auto-attack in the game and still be meaningful?
Cheers, that's all for me. Stay safe everyone.
Hi there. It’s a common myth - Nefas had a Q and A about it . It was always an intended part of the game play it seems. But it does present a challange to some players . Which heavy attack builds went some way to mitigate. Thankfully
Basic attacks are important to me when the combat design allow for spells to have an high impact when pressed. If there is higher associated cost to my spells/abilities it being either resource cost, ability cooldown, or chance to hit, then auto attacks become very important. However the impact and importance varies on class, archetype role and rotation design for the class.
Take for example a mage might have limited resource pool to cast a certain number of spells before they need to recover mana via spell, potion or passive regen. During combat it becomes import to track my resource expenditure and then I need to make a choice when to use my auto attacks. If I always have resources to press my spells then auto attack's aren't important and should not be part of my rotation.
A good example of would be a frost mage in retail wow vs classic wow. In retail there is no auto attack feature and you are always pressing your filler spell of frost bolt until a certain design element is met. Which then you choose another ability to press. While in classic you are using frost bolt until your run out mana or hit a % where you choose to your auto attack. This allows for player choice.
For classes where an auto attack typically generate my spending resource then auto attacks are import in term of rotation but loose weight in feel. They become mandatory and less of a choice but do have more import presence in term of combat rotation.
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
It all depends of feel of importance of spells and the balance strength of the auto attacks. Both designs can be fun when payoffs feel rewarding. However when you do something passively and it doesn't the most damage it doesn't feel rewarding.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
This depends on the pace of combat your are going for. If you are looking for a more fast paced game then ability should always be part of the rotation. If you are looking for a more paced combat experience then auto attacks have importance in your rotation.