Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time.
New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.
I don't see how it matters whether people get information about a game's systems by manually punching numbers into a spreadsheet versus just looking at a log file. People are going to do it either way.
The only thing that making the process more tedious actually achieves is making it harder for people to theorycraft and compare their data, which doesn't exactly help encourage an active community.
Being more difficult means people will be more actively doing it or talking to people and sharing things.
Being easier means you just look something up and don't need to talk to people.
There isn't a desire to rely on your group or community to talk directly and figure out the answers together.
Restricting people from using glasses does in fact tend to make them ask for help with math homework... Until people start calling them stupid or worse lording it over them because OTHER people can see just fine.
"Glasses make you less social and less likely to ask people for help with your math homework." That's what this sounds like.
Having logs doesn't make people "do less homework". There is still homework, it's just the 'bad eye sight' part we are getting rid of. People who are stuck on a problem will still talk with their peers.
You are missing the point.
Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.
How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.
I'm just speaking to the level of behavior I see on forums like this. Whether or not you consider your behavior is elementary school level is an issue you can discuss with yourself later.
Let's put it a different way. You shouldn't use a computer to look up a book in the library. Because that makes you less social because you don't have to talk with the librarian as much. Oh and DEFINITELY don't use your phone to google stuff so you can refine your book search better. Do I have that right? Slowing down people checking out books so they can actually talk to the people that matter later seems like a poor decision and a poor facsimile of human interaction. I'm glad you don't run my local library.
Ok so ill take that as you are trying to take my words, twist it around and do a passive aggressive insult towards me?
My comment on your glasses argument is that is not a reasonable thing from adults as any form example to be used. I don't know how you twist that into suggesting that is the conversation going on.
Using that as an example makes 0 sense because we are adults not childrens, that is not going to happen on a general level.
If you go to a library and are trying to find information on a book and you have two ways.
1. Turn the data base on, turn the pages to find the chapter and tell them to give you information on that chapter you have gone through with any detail you want. Doing so will finish up your assignment and you will get you A+
2. Yes talk to the librarian to find the book or learn a bit about it, work in your group of 3 on the assignment. Go through the chapters together and share information on the chapters you guys find. Fill in the answers but end up getting a b+ on your assignment.
Sure 1 will give you a high grade and be easier. But method 2 that takes long and is not as much of a 100% accurate way. From talking to people you gained bonds, you help each other with your own weaknesses and grow together with a overall better understanding of the topic do to your own work. And not just finding the pages and getting the answer given to you.
Option 3 exists. Turn the data base on, turn the pages to find the chapter and tell them to give you information on that chapter you have gone through with any detail you want. Work in your group of 3 on the assignment using the information you got from the library. Go through the chapters together and share information on the chapters you guys find.Get an A+ if you exhibit good teamwork.
You seem to think mmos are about 'fill in the answers'. Complex mmos that have strong teamwork and social elements don't have 'fill in the answer' style problems. Maybe that's what you are missing. A problem can be so complex/difficult that having all the information in front of you isn't enough to solve the problem. That is the sort of games I like to play and am used to. It's very possible you've just never played the kind of content we are even talking about here that Ashes has said they want to add.
You are missing the core of the point I'm getting across and talking about irrelevant points like "fill in the answers.
Your option 3 is effectively everyone copies the same answers and learns nothing. THere is no struggle of bonding to figure things out and grow closer to each other, no excite over overcoming some big task being successful or failing together.
You are trying to look for little plot holes while missing the entire point I'm getting across.
Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.
Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.
I'll remind you again that you're talking to people who have seen you play Soul Calibur and talked to other people who have similarly interacted with you there.
If you have an actual point to make, make it, but, fair or not, you're not gonna shake the stigma developed from watching/hearing about you flub around on Siegfried.
So at least stop 'appearing to be the same repetitive masher' when you post. No one is here to 'flex on you', you're not someone we consider 'worth flexing on', you're just annoyingly derailing every topic because you have some allergy to spreadsheets or something.
Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.
How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.
You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.
Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.
Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"
Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.
Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.
But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.
Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.
That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.
I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.
I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.
Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.
I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.
Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.
What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.
And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Wait, that's an important question...
Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?
Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...
I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.
So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.
This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.
You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data
Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.
*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.
Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.
How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.
You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.
Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.
Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"
Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.
Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.
But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.
Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.
That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.
I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.
I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.
Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.
I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.
Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.
What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.
And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Wait, that's an important question...
Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?
Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...
I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.
So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.
This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.
You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data
Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.
*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.
I feel like at this point if I go down this road it's just gonna turn into bullying you, and that is not what I'm here for. I hope that my teammates have blown off enough steam from having to read your inanity that this can stop here.
Combat logs exist. Combat logs can be parsed. Don't like it, continue to tell Intrepid about that. I'm not trying to drag you.
If you ever have time or willingness to indicate that you have ever actually done this or succeeded in something other than New World early PvP zerging or what have you, I'm happy to hear about it and even tell people to stop having this reaction to you.
For now, all we know about you besides that is that you mash on Siegfried and can't seem to hold a 'civil' conversation on forums without repeating yourself, and we really wish you'd stop.
@Azherae you're better than this homie, just let him go.
Yeah I was really hoping for 'something to relate back', but looks like that's not happening today.
@JustVine@SongRune hit up NiKr's earlier question about logs before you phase out again, would you? Asking here so that he knows to expect the answers.
Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.
I'll remind you again that you're talking to people who have seen you play Soul Calibur and talked to other people who have similarly interacted with you there.
If you have an actual point to make, make it, but, fair or not, you're not gonna shake the stigma developed from watching/hearing about you flub around on Siegfried.
So at least stop 'appearing to be the same repetitive masher' when you post. No one is here to 'flex on you', you're not someone we consider 'worth flexing on', you're just annoyingly derailing every topic because you have some allergy to spreadsheets or something.
Yup i knew where this was coming from, figured and guessed as much.
You are still talking about beta footage after I've already told you I was top 10 and played against actual competitive people -fp- That is literally more than you have done you won't even pick up the game. But than I'd end up teaching you a lesson in respect even being rusty and not having touched it in months.
I guess its always easier to talk or look at spread sheets than play a game ^_-.
Its funny since you make that comment with your bias and talk about derailing yet making points "You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion but to derail and throw passives aggressive insults.
I solve things by actually playing games and being competitive with some sportsmanship not back handed insults and avoiding challenges only to try to do snarky comments lmao.
Either step up and play or stop talking about soul calibur and how top players played back int he days.
Technology allows you to communicate faster an find more answer easier. The stronger the took is the less you rely on other people because it increased your capability and weaknesses. Rather than relying on others you are more empowered to just do things yourself causing less social elements to happens.
How are you getting so far from the point and talking about people being bullied for glasses like what? That sounds like some elementary school stuff.
You seem like the sort of person who doesn't have friends, or doesn't talk to them. Information isn't the end of a conversation, it's the start.
Strategy and tactics are how you apply what you learned, not 'managing to learn it' in the first place.
Information gives you something to talk to your friends about. "How do we approach this challenge?"
Guides can't answer that for you in any reasonably deep game. Everyone's party is different, everyone's styles and skillsets are different from their counterparts in the next group over.
Maybe you've never played a game that's complex enough that every group's solution is different. Maybe you only play games where every party's style & composition are the same. Guides give you the bare minimum.
But if you have friends, and you talk to them, you surpass that minimum by discussing the information, and using it to build a plan that suits you, and a good game rewards or generally even requires this.
Maybe your games don't require this. Maybe you've never had friends to do it with.
That's the bare minimum that the rest of us are used to. I hope Ashes is at least that deep.
I seem like the type that has no friends because I want people to be able to talk and not trackers to give all information.
I run a guild, I have friends, and I'm competitive. What are you even going on about.
Its funny you are starting things off assuming i have no fronts as your fore most point. Yet you start talking about guildies cant answer things for you.
I have all types of friends and people I met that figure things out, do the work, research and talk to people in order to improve their own understanding. I'm unsure what guild members you talk to if they are not capable of figuring anything out, that is not a issue I have had.
Yes you can talk about information and you can talk and work TOGETHER you know do that thing called socializing to work towards figuring it out. And talk on the information after.
What I'm seeing is laziness where you seem to want to skip some steps and just talk about the end results. At the same time not acknowledging what it means to figure things out and be excited for it. And a lack of understanding that to talk about things to figure it out you aren't just doing it alone.
And you are trying to go in on with "You have no friends" how is this even a point in any kind of opinion and has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Wait, that's an important question...
Are you the type that ever reviews your logs yourself?
Cause it's not like I don't know people like that, who are extroverted and social and rely on people like me to do all the number crunching and find the answers for them...
I just don't tend to hang around the type that then takes that 'hey my team is good, we work stuff out' and then argues against the stuff that would make it easier on their teammates. Not saying that your teammates actually do any analysis or checks either, it's just a thought, I've never seen you do it, and you've established yourself firmly in my mind (fairly or not) as a person who doesn't believe in the meanings of data.
So, who in your friend group is actually doing all this work for you, that you can come on here and act like that? I definitely have seen people who 'act like this is a social thing' when what they mean is 'oh yeah I chat with the person who does the analysis in my group when they're done, it's really social'.
This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.
You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data
Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.
*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.
I feel like at this point if I go down this road it's just gonna turn into bullying you, and that is not what I'm here for. I hope that my teammates have blown off enough steam from having to read your inanity that this can stop here.
Combat logs exist. Combat logs can be parsed. Don't like it, continue to tell Intrepid about that. I'm not trying to drag you.
If you ever have time or willingness to indicate that you have ever actually done this or succeeded in something other than New World early PvP zerging or what have you, I'm happy to hear about it and even tell people to stop having this reaction to you.
For now, all we know about you besides that is that you mash on Siegfried and can't seem to hold a 'civil' conversation on forums without repeating yourself, and we really wish you'd stop.
Who is talking about zerg pvp in world. Hope you aren't talking about me which fought a 5 group zerg guild lmao.
As i said before their stance in no third party add ons. If you get caught with it and they keep their stance and you get our account banned. That is on you for risking it at the end of the day.
Anyone can do anything, its up to the the dev to stick to what they want allowing it, not allowing it and the steps and consequences they will take.
"You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion
Breaking my self imposed rule to reply to you.
Each of these things absolutely is applicable to this discussion.
I play complex MMO's (imo EQ2 is the most complex MMO to date).
I also have friends.
Your argument is in part that combat trackers make MMO's less social. This is blatantly untrue.
For years I would get on MSN with various guild members three to four days a week during the day to talk about things we saw on our combat tracker. In the last two months I have had dinner 4 times with a guild member (twice at restaurants, one time each at our respective houses) specifically so the two of us could work out an anomoly we found using a combat tracker. I've taken guild members out for a few drinks to go over data, and lets not even talk about the e-mails, texts, phone calls and in game interaction.
Combat trackers increase social interaction - but only among people that both enjoy the data side of the game, and also want social interaction.
Anyone that said combat trackers do not increase social interaction in MMO's simply isn't interested in one of these two aspects. There is no other option.
"You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion
Breaking my self imposed rule to reply to you.
Each of these things absolutely is applicable to this discussion.
I play complex MMO's (imo EQ2 is the most complex MMO to date).
I also have friends.
Your argument is in part that combat trackers make MMO's less social. This is blatantly untrue.
For years I would get on MSN with various guild members three to four days a week during the day to talk about things we saw on our combat tracker. In the last two months I have had dinner 4 times with a guild member (twice at restaurants, one time each at our respective houses) specifically so the two of us could work out an anomoly we found using a combat tracker. I've taken guild members out for a few drinks to go over data, and lets not even talk about the e-mails, texts, phone calls and in game interaction.
Combat trackers increase social interaction - but only among people that both enjoy the data side of the game, and also want social interaction.
Anyone that said combat trackers do not increase social interaction in MMO's simply isn't interested in one of these two aspects. There is no other option.
We have already had this argument so id rather not repeat it.....So you and I are strangers we know nothing of one another. So are we going to make an argument on assumptions on what each other plays and have that the crux of the argument.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other.
Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion to me judging who plays and who doesn't play complex mmorpgs since you and I are both strangers.
Sounds to me like its a comment not put in to further a disccusion to just to throw shade which gets no where except people taking things personal and trying to do passive aggressive attacks.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
I forget if I've asked this before but, @Azherae what's your group's stance on pvp info in the logs?
In other words, if a fire mob hits you with fire and a fire mage hits you with fire, should the log say "you received fire dmg" or should it say "you received dmg from this source", but it'd be on you to know what type of dmg that source puts out?
Cause I want full transparency on pve side (with types/passives/etc shown in the mob nameplate), while barely any transparency on the pvp side. So imo the log should say the latter sentence.
First of all to answer the straightforward part of your question: I think that 'amount of damage' is more important to tell me than 'type'. But ideally you would have the attack name next to the damage number so we'd gain the information through memorizing that through lived experience or information from others.
Well I have two main thoughts on this question since you are asking and it's a little different than Azherae's answer. To me logs serve two primary functions.
1. the logical function we have been arguing about. It's there to inform what happened and therefore is a tool you can use to investigate potential problems or things that confused you. I like to think of it a lot like reviewing match footage.
2. the emotional function. At the end of the day logs give you concrete answers as to why something happened. When people are confused they often can feel emotionally upset and like an injustice occurred. This can lead to a lot of hot or painful emotions to deal with. When you can identify the 'what' of a problem, it let's you focus the 'why' better and let you cool down.
I'm pro logs in PvP for the second reason much more than the first and because PvP is inherently social, I think there is a lot more value to giving tools that address potential emotional friction points. When I play fighting games or moba matches I get to review my footage and review the 'what' happened very easily. This makes it easier for me to ask Azherae 'why', or sometimes ask myself 'why'. At the end of the day, if I'm less confused I get to be less of a salty jerk and I'd rather live that way than have to stew in it until my guild captain is available. When people are less confused, I honestly believe communities are more capable of being healthy and I want Ashes to be a healthy community.
A point you've mentioned in your own responses to this topic have a lot to do with information warfare and quite frankly, this was why I did not want an 'examine' option for gear. To me gear is a part of 'why' not 'what'. I think that revealing the 'what' is sufficient for managing goal 2 of logs. The gear can be it's own mystery and information edge. But at the end of the day I get to have a higher level (strategically, not level wise) battles against opponents when we both have access to more data. I find that much MORE fun.
That also means I'd RATHER have some form of information related to the frame data and hitboxes of attacks as those are really essential for a lot of PvP moments. BUT I don't really personally need those things since I can just ask Azherae about hitboxes or Songrune about frame data without needing a built in tool. But idk, it just feels like information IS could easily give even just 'to let us as a community update the wiki'. It makes talking about class balance much more rational.
To add to above, if I had to have a preference, that would be it. I care about the 'what happened' not 'how did the player manage to make it happen. In simple games where the only real 'what' that can happen is damage, then this tends to explain most things, and might therefore feel like it is unfortunate to have all that information available, but I don't think this is a good path for an ambitious MMO that is aiming for interesting combat, to have.
So if, for example, a Tank/Fighter has a damage bonus against 'a person who does damage to someone they are protecting', and they have a gear piece that enhances critical chance against that person too, and then a Fighter augment on top of that which increases their Crit chance/damage further as a baseline, I don't need to know anything other than 'wow that hit really hard'.
But I would still want the log to tell me 'That was a Critical Hit' instead of just 'you took damage'. As for damage types... I feel that's a thing I should get to see? Like, magic and physical damage would, realistically 'feel different' to my character. Similarly, said character would know 'that attack came from my left and hit me' and therefore be able to 'know who hit them' to some extent.
If Intrepid wants to make it so that two mages casting Black Hole in the same chokepoint causes the logs to say 'took damage from Black Hole' instead of 'took damage from X's Black Hole' and 'took Damage from Y's Black Hole' separately, I'm fine with that.
They can go all the way to 'You are taking damage from Hallowed Ground' without any indicator of whose Hallowed Ground it is, but if an Oracle's Hallowed Ground is doing Lightning Damage, I feel like you should be able to tell that is happening when you review the log, if things were chaotic around you while it was happening. The log is part of 'your character's memory' meant to make up for the inability to see everything perfectly at all times. Your character certainly should 'remember getting electrocuted', even if all you saw was a mess of damage numbers popping up.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
I want to know what abilities people used, and if they're not templated, who they targeted and whether they missed or hit), and how much damage you did. Exactly how you achieved that within your build, etc, I don't need to know. This lets me see the overall flow of battle, which is fundamental to both adaptation and strategy, particularly in post-analysis. (Assuming I'm not expected to be recording every second of gameplay to YouTube - I can just die (or win), go home, and read my scrollback.)
I want crits marked, so I can interpret the incoming damage values. There's no reason for 'how much damage I take overall' to be obscured that way. How you did it? Sure maybe.
I'm on the fence about "what element is this damage". I feel like it's probably okay to have to interpret that from what ability you used or the animation (which should be clear) most of the time, depending on the style of game. Still. I should be able to tell what I'm getting hurt by. You can require me to interpret "oh thats because of fire arrows" or "thats because of ability Y". But tell me it's Lightning my character's feeling.
I want to see healing (not Regeneration, just Burst Heal). This is similar 'basic flow of battle'. Having some perspective on how strong your healer is seems reasonable enough. This is again an 'overall flow of battle' type thing, particularly in post-analysis.
If someone gets a buff or debuff, I want that logged. Same thing. If I'm looking back later, this is the part where positioning 'has mattered'.
Philosophically: Clearly represent the overall flow of battle, and exactly how much damage I'm taking from where (and what my character can obviously feel about that damage). It's fine to hide builds or 'how they got that much fire damage'. If I missed some buff going up, or other aspects of the flow during a fight, that's natural. It's because my enemy gave me too much (or something else) to focus on, and I dropped the data. But for similar reasons to @JustVine, I feel it's best to be able to look through it afterwards. You could argue that this ruins tactics by making things less repeatable in PvP, but realistically it only stops Gimmicks. Mixups, trickery, etc, are all still going to work. You just vary your movement, or get some counter-play going. Bring fire twice, then Ice the third time. Switch up 'who attacks when', and how or when you use various tactics. The game will be fine, and people get to learn, be less salty, and experience cycles of adaptation and outwitting eachother, rather than getting stomped 10 times until finally "THAT's what he was doing?!". That might be fun for him the first time, but it's not healthy for anyone (or the game), long term.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time.
New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.
Lack of information is NOT lack of mindset/desire for that information, if you're going to derail a good thread for this, please at least understand this much. In other words, people haven't actually changed over time, the only thing that changed is how easily they can compile the information, not how much social interaction they seek or how "lazy" they wanna be.
Bow before the Emperor and your lives shall be spared. Refuse to bow and your lives shall be speared.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
Old days - people talking and figure things out together and putting work in to find out what works over time.
New days - people looking to find out the best thing instantly with as little work and as fast as possible with less social interaction.
Lack of information is NOT lack of mindset/desire for that information, if you're going to derail a good thread for this, please at least understand this much. In other words, people haven't actually changed over time, the only thing that changed is how easily they can compile the information, not how much social interaction they seek or how "lazy" they wanna be.
Easier access of information = less social interaction / work needed to obtain that information. That has nothing to do with what personally someone seeks.
Ie if you have a problem and you all work together to solve it = social interaction + bonding together.
Super calculator give you the answer instantly = less reason to rely on others meaning less social interactions.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
What passive aggressive insults?
Comments about "You don't play comples mmorpgs" Without knowing what games I play or anything about me.
As well as comments suggesting lack of friends, again without knowing anything about me. That is what that post was linked to about having nothing to do with the discussion.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
You're misunderstanding what happened a bit, but thankfully this does tie back into the topic, pretty well too.
Information gathering is an important part of a PvP game. As you say, checking information on enemies and working out how to beat them, putting in the time and effort to counter and understand potential opponents. So what actually happened was that at some point a potential opponent (you have challenged me/my group/half of the forum honestly at this point, many times) gave a piece of information about themselves that could be used to trace aspects of their approach and personality.
So, the options, if people were going to be group of tryhards (as we are) was to do exactly what you want people to have to do. We 'received the capacity to gather a large amount of information' and analyse it, the slow way.
Which we did. Now, in Ashes, let's assume this became about Classes. And we knew that you were a Fighter/Fighter (not that you are, just an assumption), and we knew a bunch of things about Fighter abilities and possible Fighter gear. Then wouldn't it fit your entire model of how people should behave, for us to 'take the time and data from what we actually know' and prepare for PvP based on it? (remember, again, you have challenged people for this, you've even challenged people IN SC6).
Now, if Ashes has enough variety in classes, we won't be able to guess how you'll fight, because we don't know for sure that you'll be Fighter/Fighter. But we could look at how you play other games, and assume that even if you try to play something else to throw us off, you'll still fight LIKE a Fighter/Fighter, and that will cause you to do certain things which might be suboptimal for you, but only if we're expecting them.
This is the benefit of a robust class system, because we get more interplay, you could then 'actually adapt', and try to overcome our 'predictions of your behaviour and instincts'. But the more information we have, the more likely we know what your primary adaptations are, and so on down the line.
So it's twofold related. The data flow, your attempts to bluff, our willingness to call your bluff based on talking to people you've fought who put pressure on you enough to adapt, etc. So, you're being 'insulted' because we are tryhards who 'know a bunch of stuff about you' specifically because we did the exact thing you want people to actually do. We didn't just 'check your stats', we didn't make a bunch of assumptions. We did the equivalent of 'pen and paper', and then drew conclusions based on that.
Our impressions of you are set because of the very thing you wanted. And a proper class system takes that further. It gives you options. It gives you bluffs, and style changes. It takes it beyond 'I know how to beat your X, and I know how to beat your Y if you try to change to that because you think I don't know about it'. Without it, nothing changes.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
You're misunderstanding what happened a bit, but thankfully this does tie back into the topic, pretty well too.
Information gathering is an important part of a PvP game. As you say, checking information on enemies and working out how to beat them, putting in the time and effort to counter and understand potential opponents. So what actually happened was that at some point a potential opponent (you have challenged me/my group/half of the forum honestly at this point, many times) gave a piece of information about themselves that could be used to trace aspects of their approach and personality.
So, the options, if people were going to be group of tryhards (as we are) was to do exactly what you want people to have to do. We 'received the capacity to gather a large amount of information' and analyse it, the slow way.
Which we did. Now, in Ashes, let's assume this became about Classes. And we knew that you were a Fighter/Fighter (not that you are, just an assumption), and we knew a bunch of things about Fighter abilities and possible Fighter gear. Then wouldn't it fit your entire model of how people should behave, for us to 'take the time and data from what we actually know' and prepare for PvP based on it? (remember, again, you have challenged people for this, you've even challenged people IN SC6).
Now, if Ashes has enough variety in classes, we won't be able to guess how you'll fight, because we don't know for sure that you'll be Fighter/Fighter. But we could look at how you play other games, and assume that even if you try to play something else to throw us off, you'll still fight LIKE a Fighter/Fighter, and that will cause you to do certain things which might be suboptimal for you, but only if we're expecting them.
This is the benefit of a robust class system, because we get more interplay, you could then 'actually adapt', and try to overcome our 'predictions of your behaviour and instincts'. But the more information we have, the more likely we know what your primary adaptations are, and so on down the line.
So it's twofold related. The data flow, your attempts to bluff, our willingness to call your bluff based on talking to people you've fought who put pressure on you enough to adapt, etc. So, you're being 'insulted' because we are tryhards who 'know a bunch of stuff about you' specifically because we did the exact thing you want people to actually do. We didn't just 'check your stats', we didn't make a bunch of assumptions. We did the equivalent of 'pen and paper', and then drew conclusions based on that.
Our impressions of you are set because of the very thing you wanted. And a proper class system takes that further. It gives you options. It gives you bluffs, and style changes. It takes it beyond 'I know how to beat your X, and I know how to beat your Y if you try to change to that because you think I don't know about it'. Without it, nothing changes.
I'll be blunt you are making assumption, people are getting triggered because people have different view points. And you and your group took it personal and couldn't just say their view point and needed to try and throw a jabs.
Im literarily jsut saying my view point and how i feel without being overly emotionally attached because someone else has a different view point.
That is why I say in soul calibur if you want to talk smack, play the game. I don't say anything bad back, I'd simply just be confident in my own ability to play the game and it speak for itself at that point.
I see no point saying things like "you have no friends, you don't play complex mmorpgs based on my opinion"
That holds no weight everyone view point is valuable to share without feeling like your identity is attacked. Be it one agrees or disagrees doesn't mean you can't say your view point and explain why you feel so and disagree...
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
You're misunderstanding what happened a bit, but thankfully this does tie back into the topic, pretty well too.
Information gathering is an important part of a PvP game. As you say, checking information on enemies and working out how to beat them, putting in the time and effort to counter and understand potential opponents. So what actually happened was that at some point a potential opponent (you have challenged me/my group/half of the forum honestly at this point, many times) gave a piece of information about themselves that could be used to trace aspects of their approach and personality.
So, the options, if people were going to be group of tryhards (as we are) was to do exactly what you want people to have to do. We 'received the capacity to gather a large amount of information' and analyse it, the slow way.
Which we did. Now, in Ashes, let's assume this became about Classes. And we knew that you were a Fighter/Fighter (not that you are, just an assumption), and we knew a bunch of things about Fighter abilities and possible Fighter gear. Then wouldn't it fit your entire model of how people should behave, for us to 'take the time and data from what we actually know' and prepare for PvP based on it? (remember, again, you have challenged people for this, you've even challenged people IN SC6).
Now, if Ashes has enough variety in classes, we won't be able to guess how you'll fight, because we don't know for sure that you'll be Fighter/Fighter. But we could look at how you play other games, and assume that even if you try to play something else to throw us off, you'll still fight LIKE a Fighter/Fighter, and that will cause you to do certain things which might be suboptimal for you, but only if we're expecting them.
This is the benefit of a robust class system, because we get more interplay, you could then 'actually adapt', and try to overcome our 'predictions of your behaviour and instincts'. But the more information we have, the more likely we know what your primary adaptations are, and so on down the line.
So it's twofold related. The data flow, your attempts to bluff, our willingness to call your bluff based on talking to people you've fought who put pressure on you enough to adapt, etc. So, you're being 'insulted' because we are tryhards who 'know a bunch of stuff about you' specifically because we did the exact thing you want people to actually do. We didn't just 'check your stats', we didn't make a bunch of assumptions. We did the equivalent of 'pen and paper', and then drew conclusions based on that.
Our impressions of you are set because of the very thing you wanted. And a proper class system takes that further. It gives you options. It gives you bluffs, and style changes. It takes it beyond 'I know how to beat your X, and I know how to beat your Y if you try to change to that because you think I don't know about it'. Without it, nothing changes.
I'll be blunt you are making assumption, people are getting triggered because people have different view points. And you and your group took it personal and couldn't just say their view point and needed to try and throw a jabs.
Im literarily jsut saying my view point and how i feel without being overly emotionally attached because someone else has a different view point.
That is why I say in soul calibur if you want to talk smack, play the game. I don't say anything bad back, I'd simply just be confident in my own ability to play the game and it speak for itself at that point.
I see no point saying things like "you have no friends, you don't play complex mmorpgs based on my opinion"
That holds no weight everyone view point is valuable to share without feeling like your identity is attacked. Be it one agrees or disagrees doesn't mean you can't say your view point and explain why you feel so and disagree...
So what happened here is you basically called on people to make inferences and assumptions about their obstacles, then discuss their perspectives on it as a group. So we actually did that, right here in front of you, in this thread and you didn't like it, simply because it happened to be about you.
Your opinion is clearly wrong, but it's obvious to everyone you really believe in it. What that means for us is that we MUST make assumptions and inferences about who you are based on what we know about you. It's the only way to understand where you are coming from, ie why you have your opinion. But you don't like when people do that.
So let me ask you this, then: do you have any reason at all to believe you would like it more if this happened to you in PvP when Ashes releases? Because we'd do the same thing...
Is there any reason at all why you aren't just one of those people who vehemently asks for a thing because they don't understand what it means for them?
Bow before the Emperor and your lives shall be spared. Refuse to bow and your lives shall be speared.
The way you talk has you come across as a crybaby who talks big and then can't back it up, repeating themselves over and over. So people tell you that the way you talk causes that, and also gives them certain impressions of you. If you want to change their impression of you, that's all I was suggesting.
If you are a person who can be more coherent/eloquent than this, and you aren't just trolling, please do so. I just have a lot of data that indicates this is how you always are.
That's why I brought up the SC6 thing in the first place. You fight like a crybaby too, in all the matches they have seen and the people talked to have reported the same impression of you.
Change the impression. Or don't, but at least stop filling every thread with your knee-jerk reactions to whatever it is that has upset you about people forming an impression of you based on the data they have. You can't both argue 'we're making assumptions' and then also 'people should have to gather information on their own'.
I'm aware that this is insulting. But the main thing I want you to understand is that on the internet, only the way you present yourself matters. Your internet persona is the 'only one anyone knows'. And you know it's the same for PvP, particularly in fighting games. If someone watches you spam and get whiff punished for 18 matches, you can say 'you're just assuming I'll spam and get whiff punished if I fight you, but you can't prove it, you have to fight me'.
I'm asking you to change because this is really not a good look. These forums are not that active. If every time someone states a fact you come in with your oversensitive random takes and then get into a fight with them, I feel it's not so great, so I try to stop you, mostly because you're irritating.
Every pearl starts as an irritating grain of sand.
Comments about "You don't play comples mmorpgs" Without knowing what games I play or anything about me.
That isn't an insult at all, let alone passive aggressive one.
It is an observation.
Without you even telling me, I know you have not played any complex MMORPG's. I know that most of the time you have spent playing what you would consider to be MMORPG's was probably playing survival games like Rust. I also know you have played a lot of BDO - probably the game with the mechanically simplest combat of any MMO I have personally played.
So no, saying you haven't played complex MMO's isn't an insult - it is an observation.
Further, it is an observation based on how you have presented yourself on these forums. It is an observation based solely on how you present yourself here, the discussion points you raise, and the validity behind the comments you make.
If you are unhappy about the observations people have made about you based on how you have presented yourself, consider altering how you present yourself.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
If me giving real examples of combat trackers being a catalyst for social interaction and teamwork has no place in this discussion, then you saying that combat trackers reduce social interaction and teamwork has no place.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other. Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion ....
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
You're misunderstanding what happened a bit, but thankfully this does tie back into the topic, pretty well too.
Information gathering is an important part of a PvP game. As you say, checking information on enemies and working out how to beat them, putting in the time and effort to counter and understand potential opponents. So what actually happened was that at some point a potential opponent (you have challenged me/my group/half of the forum honestly at this point, many times) gave a piece of information about themselves that could be used to trace aspects of their approach and personality.
So, the options, if people were going to be group of tryhards (as we are) was to do exactly what you want people to have to do. We 'received the capacity to gather a large amount of information' and analyse it, the slow way.
Which we did. Now, in Ashes, let's assume this became about Classes. And we knew that you were a Fighter/Fighter (not that you are, just an assumption), and we knew a bunch of things about Fighter abilities and possible Fighter gear. Then wouldn't it fit your entire model of how people should behave, for us to 'take the time and data from what we actually know' and prepare for PvP based on it? (remember, again, you have challenged people for this, you've even challenged people IN SC6).
Now, if Ashes has enough variety in classes, we won't be able to guess how you'll fight, because we don't know for sure that you'll be Fighter/Fighter. But we could look at how you play other games, and assume that even if you try to play something else to throw us off, you'll still fight LIKE a Fighter/Fighter, and that will cause you to do certain things which might be suboptimal for you, but only if we're expecting them.
This is the benefit of a robust class system, because we get more interplay, you could then 'actually adapt', and try to overcome our 'predictions of your behaviour and instincts'. But the more information we have, the more likely we know what your primary adaptations are, and so on down the line.
So it's twofold related. The data flow, your attempts to bluff, our willingness to call your bluff based on talking to people you've fought who put pressure on you enough to adapt, etc. So, you're being 'insulted' because we are tryhards who 'know a bunch of stuff about you' specifically because we did the exact thing you want people to actually do. We didn't just 'check your stats', we didn't make a bunch of assumptions. We did the equivalent of 'pen and paper', and then drew conclusions based on that.
Our impressions of you are set because of the very thing you wanted. And a proper class system takes that further. It gives you options. It gives you bluffs, and style changes. It takes it beyond 'I know how to beat your X, and I know how to beat your Y if you try to change to that because you think I don't know about it'. Without it, nothing changes.
I'll be blunt you are making assumption, people are getting triggered because people have different view points. And you and your group took it personal and couldn't just say their view point and needed to try and throw a jabs.
Im literarily jsut saying my view point and how i feel without being overly emotionally attached because someone else has a different view point.
That is why I say in soul calibur if you want to talk smack, play the game. I don't say anything bad back, I'd simply just be confident in my own ability to play the game and it speak for itself at that point.
I see no point saying things like "you have no friends, you don't play complex mmorpgs based on my opinion"
That holds no weight everyone view point is valuable to share without feeling like your identity is attacked. Be it one agrees or disagrees doesn't mean you can't say your view point and explain why you feel so and disagree...
So what happened here is you basically called on people to make inferences and assumptions about their obstacles, then discuss their perspectives on it as a group. So we actually did that, right here in front of you, in this thread and you didn't like it, simply because it happened to be about you.
Your opinion is clearly wrong, but it's obvious to everyone you really believe in it. What that means for us is that we MUST make assumptions and inferences about who you are based on what we know about you. It's the only way to understand where you are coming from, ie why you have your opinion. But you don't like when people do that.
So let me ask you this, then: do you have any reason at all to believe you would like it more if this happened to you in PvP when Ashes releases? Because we'd do the same thing...
Is there any reason at all why you aren't just one of those people who vehemently asks for a thing because they don't understand what it means for them?
Its funny because i don't agree with your opinion but you are here saying things like "Your opinion is wrong" That sounds pretty entitled to me. I'm still not grouping in a group chat and telling people to throw passives aggressive insults on one person from disagreements in opinions.
You literally don't know anything about me, you make assumption because you don't want to make a effort to understand someone, we are both strangers here and like i said it seems a few of you take disagreements personally based on your reactions and your wording.
If this was PvP in the game it be a lot easier we just fight directly and no one can avoid anything. But I'm not going to jump down to your level on a forum over this kind of disagreement. I'm simply pointing out if you want a discussion you should cut the fat out that is pointless with those kinds of comments.
My view point is we are both taking this seriously and both making points on how we feel on it and writing in some element of detail. So respect should be shared on both sides with the effort going in.
If i go down t your level and we both do the same thing and that it gets worse no good discussion comes out of it. Say your piece ill say mine, and than we can agree or agree to disagree on our points its easy.
Comments about "You don't play comples mmorpgs" Without knowing what games I play or anything about me.
That isn't an insult at all, let alone passive aggressive one.
It is an observation.
Without you even telling me, I know you have not played any complex MMORPG's. I know that most of the time you have spent playing what you would consider to be MMORPG's was probably playing survival games like Rust. I also know you have played a lot of BDO - probably the game with the mechanically simplest combat of any MMO I have personally played.
So no, saying you haven't played complex MMO's isn't an insult - it is an observation.
Further, it is an observation based on how you have presented yourself on these forums. It is an observation based solely on how you present yourself here, the discussion points you raise, and the validity behind the comments you make.
If you are unhappy about the observations people have made about you based on how you have presented yourself, consider altering how you present yourself.
So you are making wrong assumptions and taking them as fact. Also that is something we can disagree on BDO combat.
ITs funny why would people that dislike each other has a positive feeling? The way you present yourself and you view it, the way i view it and our negative interactions. One would have to be very silly to think either one has a clear understanding of the other in a truthful way.
The point isn't to look for validation on someone that attempts be leave negative impressions. The POINT is to call out that part of the comment and keep the disccusion not going in a further negative direction based on assumptions that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Because people take someone having a different opinion as personal. Even more so when certain people have negative feelings towards each other so its either to throw some passive aggressive comments.
Your own negative element suggesting you are making an observation while not actually looking at anything nor having a discussion not give it any positive truth, leading you to say rust is a mmorpg I play and calling that a mmorpg.
So, in the interest of 'this topic having something other than Combat Trackers (again) to talk about'.
I don't know how many classes exist in Ashes, but I personally believe that even with a strict definition of Classes, it can be considered to be more than 8.
Even if you take games with highly flexible design, they end up having to come up with 'grouping type terms' to help players understand 'which things are similar enough to each other to be interchangeable'. Predecessor has 32 Heroes currently, and one could claim there are 5 roles (the roles you choose at game start). But really, there are at least 9 'types', and it's more like 22-27.
In an MMORPG there would be a lot more flexibility, but that flexibility exists in Pred too. The 'information' you are receiving by having the label is telling you what to expect and not expect. So 'Offlane' can be played by a 'Tank', a 'Fighter', and depending on skill, an 'Assassin'. And Support can be played by a Mage (CC heavy), Tank, 'Enchanter', 'Debuffer', or a really determined 'Instigator'.
Those are 'different ways of achieving the same thing'. So in Ashes, if Mage/Mage increases damage and control centered on the enemy, and Mage/Summoner increases damage and control centered on a position, we can probably think of these as interchangeable most of the time. There might be a way to optimize for 'maximum area control' on Mage/Summoner, and 'maximum enemy control' on Archmage, but if these two built largely the same abilities with the same goal, I wouldn't be surprised if a player who 'only played Control Mage' would only have specs for these. For some people this would mean 'these are basically the same class with different names', like comparing 'Sharpshooter' characters in Predecessor, but you'd still have different optimization options, and maybe a few unique or style-shifting augments.
But, by raw numbers, you could probably come up with 30 at least.
Since they don't intend for most of us to unlock all skills, we can equate it to the 87 or so (roughly, it's complicated) full strength Items in Predecessor as well. Some are basic, some are similar, but there's still about 64 unique ones, and they often have interesting interactions. So interesting, that if you apply them to different characters, via different base abilities, you 'create more functions'.
Ashes only has 32 Archetype Based augment schools. That's a whole 32 more to go!
Whether or not 64 classes is 'difficult to make' really comes down to whether or not players get hung up on the fact that because almost all Tanks have Javelin, it means that the one using it to Instigate, and the one using it to Protect, are the same. And that, in turn, will probably be true if the only differences are damage or mild debuffs if they target the same person.
But Riktor (Jungle) and Riktor (Support) don't even use their abilities in the same order far less 'have the same overall effects and goals when they build items to enhance those abilities'. So it's all perspective, really. If 'all Riktor are the same' to you, then Jeff's statement is right. If 'Riktor Offlane' and 'Riktor Support' are different enough that you respond to them differently and synergize with them differently, then Steven's statements are right.
Either way, the number of 'classes' can be determined by the number of Guides. If we find ourselves with lots of Guides that say 'you can pick any Secondary to use with this ability set and gear, it functions about the same' (and it's actually right) then sure, we only have 8 classes.
Comments
You are missing the core of the point I'm getting across and talking about irrelevant points like "fill in the answers.
Your option 3 is effectively everyone copies the same answers and learns nothing. THere is no struggle of bonding to figure things out and grow closer to each other, no excite over overcoming some big task being successful or failing together.
You are trying to look for little plot holes while missing the entire point I'm getting across.
Buddy if we are talking about mmorpgs flexing I've played more mmorpgs than you have. Literally has nothing to do with this disccusion talking about what is and what isn't complex. The core of this applies to more than just mmorpgs.
I'll remind you again that you're talking to people who have seen you play Soul Calibur and talked to other people who have similarly interacted with you there.
If you have an actual point to make, make it, but, fair or not, you're not gonna shake the stigma developed from watching/hearing about you flub around on Siegfried.
So at least stop 'appearing to be the same repetitive masher' when you post. No one is here to 'flex on you', you're not someone we consider 'worth flexing on', you're just annoyingly derailing every topic because you have some allergy to spreadsheets or something.
This does not seem relevant on you asking who is doing this. People work together, figure things out and share it. Be it i figure things out, someone else, talking to be be them in the guilds, friends or strangers, research, etc.
You have not really seen me play besides some old clips and certain things you already want to think of about I think on things which imo is not exactly accurate *Ie I don't believe in the meaning of data
Which doesn't sound accurate when my point is wanting people to figure things out because of the impact more quickly gaining data has.
*I feel this is in relation to soul caliber with how i felt about frame data. The only way you would have understood me is if we actually played together. I also mentioned I'm not a normal type of player as far as skill is concerned.
I feel like at this point if I go down this road it's just gonna turn into bullying you, and that is not what I'm here for. I hope that my teammates have blown off enough steam from having to read your inanity that this can stop here.
Combat logs exist. Combat logs can be parsed. Don't like it, continue to tell Intrepid about that. I'm not trying to drag you.
If you ever have time or willingness to indicate that you have ever actually done this or succeeded in something other than New World early PvP zerging or what have you, I'm happy to hear about it and even tell people to stop having this reaction to you.
For now, all we know about you besides that is that you mash on Siegfried and can't seem to hold a 'civil' conversation on forums without repeating yourself, and we really wish you'd stop.
Yeah I was really hoping for 'something to relate back', but looks like that's not happening today.
@JustVine @SongRune hit up NiKr's earlier question about logs before you phase out again, would you? Asking here so that he knows to expect the answers.
Yup i knew where this was coming from, figured and guessed as much.
You are still talking about beta footage after I've already told you I was top 10 and played against actual competitive people -fp- That is literally more than you have done you won't even pick up the game. But than I'd end up teaching you a lesson in respect even being rusty and not having touched it in months.
I guess its always easier to talk or look at spread sheets than play a game ^_-.
Its funny since you make that comment with your bias and talk about derailing yet making points "You have no friend" "Do you even paly complex mmorpgs" have literarily nothing to do with the discussion but to derail and throw passives aggressive insults.
I solve things by actually playing games and being competitive with some sportsmanship not back handed insults and avoiding challenges only to try to do snarky comments lmao.
Either step up and play or stop talking about soul calibur and how top players played back int he days.
Who is talking about zerg pvp in world. Hope you aren't talking about me which fought a 5 group zerg guild lmao.
As i said before their stance in no third party add ons. If you get caught with it and they keep their stance and you get our account banned. That is on you for risking it at the end of the day.
Anyone can do anything, its up to the the dev to stick to what they want allowing it, not allowing it and the steps and consequences they will take.
It isn't for you or I to decide buddy.
Each of these things absolutely is applicable to this discussion.
I play complex MMO's (imo EQ2 is the most complex MMO to date).
I also have friends.
Your argument is in part that combat trackers make MMO's less social. This is blatantly untrue.
For years I would get on MSN with various guild members three to four days a week during the day to talk about things we saw on our combat tracker. In the last two months I have had dinner 4 times with a guild member (twice at restaurants, one time each at our respective houses) specifically so the two of us could work out an anomoly we found using a combat tracker. I've taken guild members out for a few drinks to go over data, and lets not even talk about the e-mails, texts, phone calls and in game interaction.
Combat trackers increase social interaction - but only among people that both enjoy the data side of the game, and also want social interaction.
Anyone that said combat trackers do not increase social interaction in MMO's simply isn't interested in one of these two aspects. There is no other option.
We have already had this argument so id rather not repeat it.....So you and I are strangers we know nothing of one another. So are we going to make an argument on assumptions on what each other plays and have that the crux of the argument.
Me assuming what you play, you assuming what I play, both us literally knowing nothing about each other.
Sounds like it has nothing to do with the disccusion to me judging who plays and who doesn't play complex mmorpgs since you and I are both strangers.
Sounds to me like its a comment not put in to further a disccusion to just to throw shade which gets no where except people taking things personal and trying to do passive aggressive attacks.
Again has no place in this discussion unless we decided to share what mmorpgs we play and talk about them not use it as a type of insult.
First of all to answer the straightforward part of your question: I think that 'amount of damage' is more important to tell me than 'type'. But ideally you would have the attack name next to the damage number so we'd gain the information through memorizing that through lived experience or information from others.
Well I have two main thoughts on this question since you are asking and it's a little different than Azherae's answer. To me logs serve two primary functions.
1. the logical function we have been arguing about. It's there to inform what happened and therefore is a tool you can use to investigate potential problems or things that confused you. I like to think of it a lot like reviewing match footage.
2. the emotional function. At the end of the day logs give you concrete answers as to why something happened. When people are confused they often can feel emotionally upset and like an injustice occurred. This can lead to a lot of hot or painful emotions to deal with. When you can identify the 'what' of a problem, it let's you focus the 'why' better and let you cool down.
I'm pro logs in PvP for the second reason much more than the first and because PvP is inherently social, I think there is a lot more value to giving tools that address potential emotional friction points. When I play fighting games or moba matches I get to review my footage and review the 'what' happened very easily. This makes it easier for me to ask Azherae 'why', or sometimes ask myself 'why'. At the end of the day, if I'm less confused I get to be less of a salty jerk and I'd rather live that way than have to stew in it until my guild captain is available. When people are less confused, I honestly believe communities are more capable of being healthy and I want Ashes to be a healthy community.
A point you've mentioned in your own responses to this topic have a lot to do with information warfare and quite frankly, this was why I did not want an 'examine' option for gear. To me gear is a part of 'why' not 'what'. I think that revealing the 'what' is sufficient for managing goal 2 of logs. The gear can be it's own mystery and information edge. But at the end of the day I get to have a higher level (strategically, not level wise) battles against opponents when we both have access to more data. I find that much MORE fun.
That also means I'd RATHER have some form of information related to the frame data and hitboxes of attacks as those are really essential for a lot of PvP moments. BUT I don't really personally need those things since I can just ask Azherae about hitboxes or Songrune about frame data without needing a built in tool. But idk, it just feels like information IS could easily give even just 'to let us as a community update the wiki'. It makes talking about class balance much more rational.
So if, for example, a Tank/Fighter has a damage bonus against 'a person who does damage to someone they are protecting', and they have a gear piece that enhances critical chance against that person too, and then a Fighter augment on top of that which increases their Crit chance/damage further as a baseline, I don't need to know anything other than 'wow that hit really hard'.
But I would still want the log to tell me 'That was a Critical Hit' instead of just 'you took damage'. As for damage types... I feel that's a thing I should get to see? Like, magic and physical damage would, realistically 'feel different' to my character. Similarly, said character would know 'that attack came from my left and hit me' and therefore be able to 'know who hit them' to some extent.
If Intrepid wants to make it so that two mages casting Black Hole in the same chokepoint causes the logs to say 'took damage from Black Hole' instead of 'took damage from X's Black Hole' and 'took Damage from Y's Black Hole' separately, I'm fine with that.
They can go all the way to 'You are taking damage from Hallowed Ground' without any indicator of whose Hallowed Ground it is, but if an Oracle's Hallowed Ground is doing Lightning Damage, I feel like you should be able to tell that is happening when you review the log, if things were chaotic around you while it was happening. The log is part of 'your character's memory' meant to make up for the inability to see everything perfectly at all times. Your character certainly should 'remember getting electrocuted', even if all you saw was a mess of damage numbers popping up.
How it actually works is that the second you say that combat trackers reduce social interaction and/or teamwork, you open the floor up to anyone that wants to argue that point.
You can not make a point and then state that people refuting that point shouldn't do so in this discussion - if oyu make the point, it can be refuted in the same discussion.
If you do not like that, do not make that point in the first place.
Philosophically: Clearly represent the overall flow of battle, and exactly how much damage I'm taking from where (and what my character can obviously feel about that damage). It's fine to hide builds or 'how they got that much fire damage'. If I missed some buff going up, or other aspects of the flow during a fight, that's natural. It's because my enemy gave me too much (or something else) to focus on, and I dropped the data. But for similar reasons to @JustVine, I feel it's best to be able to look through it afterwards. You could argue that this ruins tactics by making things less repeatable in PvP, but realistically it only stops Gimmicks. Mixups, trickery, etc, are all still going to work. You just vary your movement, or get some counter-play going. Bring fire twice, then Ice the third time. Switch up 'who attacks when', and how or when you use various tactics. The game will be fine, and people get to learn, be less salty, and experience cycles of adaptation and outwitting eachother, rather than getting stomped 10 times until finally "THAT's what he was doing?!". That might be fun for him the first time, but it's not healthy for anyone (or the game), long term.
What games we play has no specific relation to the discussion either way. It doesn't mean anything at all, it doesn't change anything at all.
You're just trying to make a point that is untrue from an objective perspective (even if it is subjectively true for you), and are trying to do anything to prevent people arguing against it. The problem is, you don't get to decide what arguments I make.
Lack of information is NOT lack of mindset/desire for that information, if you're going to derail a good thread for this, please at least understand this much. In other words, people haven't actually changed over time, the only thing that changed is how easily they can compile the information, not how much social interaction they seek or how "lazy" they wanna be.
What are you on about I'm talking about people making personal arguments on here that have nothing to do with the actual discussion, as passive aggressive insults.
What passive aggressive insults?
Easier access of information = less social interaction / work needed to obtain that information. That has nothing to do with what personally someone seeks.
Ie if you have a problem and you all work together to solve it = social interaction + bonding together.
Super calculator give you the answer instantly = less reason to rely on others meaning less social interactions.
Comments about "You don't play comples mmorpgs" Without knowing what games I play or anything about me.
As well as comments suggesting lack of friends, again without knowing anything about me. That is what that post was linked to about having nothing to do with the discussion.
You're misunderstanding what happened a bit, but thankfully this does tie back into the topic, pretty well too.
Information gathering is an important part of a PvP game. As you say, checking information on enemies and working out how to beat them, putting in the time and effort to counter and understand potential opponents. So what actually happened was that at some point a potential opponent (you have challenged me/my group/half of the forum honestly at this point, many times) gave a piece of information about themselves that could be used to trace aspects of their approach and personality.
So, the options, if people were going to be group of tryhards (as we are) was to do exactly what you want people to have to do. We 'received the capacity to gather a large amount of information' and analyse it, the slow way.
Which we did. Now, in Ashes, let's assume this became about Classes. And we knew that you were a Fighter/Fighter (not that you are, just an assumption), and we knew a bunch of things about Fighter abilities and possible Fighter gear. Then wouldn't it fit your entire model of how people should behave, for us to 'take the time and data from what we actually know' and prepare for PvP based on it? (remember, again, you have challenged people for this, you've even challenged people IN SC6).
Now, if Ashes has enough variety in classes, we won't be able to guess how you'll fight, because we don't know for sure that you'll be Fighter/Fighter. But we could look at how you play other games, and assume that even if you try to play something else to throw us off, you'll still fight LIKE a Fighter/Fighter, and that will cause you to do certain things which might be suboptimal for you, but only if we're expecting them.
This is the benefit of a robust class system, because we get more interplay, you could then 'actually adapt', and try to overcome our 'predictions of your behaviour and instincts'. But the more information we have, the more likely we know what your primary adaptations are, and so on down the line.
So it's twofold related. The data flow, your attempts to bluff, our willingness to call your bluff based on talking to people you've fought who put pressure on you enough to adapt, etc. So, you're being 'insulted' because we are tryhards who 'know a bunch of stuff about you' specifically because we did the exact thing you want people to actually do. We didn't just 'check your stats', we didn't make a bunch of assumptions. We did the equivalent of 'pen and paper', and then drew conclusions based on that.
Our impressions of you are set because of the very thing you wanted. And a proper class system takes that further. It gives you options. It gives you bluffs, and style changes. It takes it beyond 'I know how to beat your X, and I know how to beat your Y if you try to change to that because you think I don't know about it'. Without it, nothing changes.
I'll be blunt you are making assumption, people are getting triggered because people have different view points. And you and your group took it personal and couldn't just say their view point and needed to try and throw a jabs.
Im literarily jsut saying my view point and how i feel without being overly emotionally attached because someone else has a different view point.
That is why I say in soul calibur if you want to talk smack, play the game. I don't say anything bad back, I'd simply just be confident in my own ability to play the game and it speak for itself at that point.
I see no point saying things like "you have no friends, you don't play complex mmorpgs based on my opinion"
That holds no weight everyone view point is valuable to share without feeling like your identity is attacked. Be it one agrees or disagrees doesn't mean you can't say your view point and explain why you feel so and disagree...
So what happened here is you basically called on people to make inferences and assumptions about their obstacles, then discuss their perspectives on it as a group. So we actually did that, right here in front of you, in this thread and you didn't like it, simply because it happened to be about you.
Your opinion is clearly wrong, but it's obvious to everyone you really believe in it. What that means for us is that we MUST make assumptions and inferences about who you are based on what we know about you. It's the only way to understand where you are coming from, ie why you have your opinion. But you don't like when people do that.
So let me ask you this, then: do you have any reason at all to believe you would like it more if this happened to you in PvP when Ashes releases? Because we'd do the same thing...
Is there any reason at all why you aren't just one of those people who vehemently asks for a thing because they don't understand what it means for them?
The way you talk has you come across as a crybaby who talks big and then can't back it up, repeating themselves over and over. So people tell you that the way you talk causes that, and also gives them certain impressions of you. If you want to change their impression of you, that's all I was suggesting.
If you are a person who can be more coherent/eloquent than this, and you aren't just trolling, please do so. I just have a lot of data that indicates this is how you always are.
That's why I brought up the SC6 thing in the first place. You fight like a crybaby too, in all the matches they have seen and the people talked to have reported the same impression of you.
Change the impression. Or don't, but at least stop filling every thread with your knee-jerk reactions to whatever it is that has upset you about people forming an impression of you based on the data they have. You can't both argue 'we're making assumptions' and then also 'people should have to gather information on their own'.
I'm aware that this is insulting. But the main thing I want you to understand is that on the internet, only the way you present yourself matters. Your internet persona is the 'only one anyone knows'. And you know it's the same for PvP, particularly in fighting games. If someone watches you spam and get whiff punished for 18 matches, you can say 'you're just assuming I'll spam and get whiff punished if I fight you, but you can't prove it, you have to fight me'.
I'm asking you to change because this is really not a good look. These forums are not that active. If every time someone states a fact you come in with your oversensitive random takes and then get into a fight with them, I feel it's not so great, so I try to stop you, mostly because you're irritating.
Every pearl starts as an irritating grain of sand.
It is an observation.
Without you even telling me, I know you have not played any complex MMORPG's. I know that most of the time you have spent playing what you would consider to be MMORPG's was probably playing survival games like Rust. I also know you have played a lot of BDO - probably the game with the mechanically simplest combat of any MMO I have personally played.
So no, saying you haven't played complex MMO's isn't an insult - it is an observation.
Further, it is an observation based on how you have presented yourself on these forums. It is an observation based solely on how you present yourself here, the discussion points you raise, and the validity behind the comments you make.
If you are unhappy about the observations people have made about you based on how you have presented yourself, consider altering how you present yourself.
Its funny because i don't agree with your opinion but you are here saying things like "Your opinion is wrong" That sounds pretty entitled to me. I'm still not grouping in a group chat and telling people to throw passives aggressive insults on one person from disagreements in opinions.
You literally don't know anything about me, you make assumption because you don't want to make a effort to understand someone, we are both strangers here and like i said it seems a few of you take disagreements personally based on your reactions and your wording.
If this was PvP in the game it be a lot easier we just fight directly and no one can avoid anything. But I'm not going to jump down to your level on a forum over this kind of disagreement. I'm simply pointing out if you want a discussion you should cut the fat out that is pointless with those kinds of comments.
My view point is we are both taking this seriously and both making points on how we feel on it and writing in some element of detail. So respect should be shared on both sides with the effort going in.
If i go down t your level and we both do the same thing and that it gets worse no good discussion comes out of it. Say your piece ill say mine, and than we can agree or agree to disagree on our points its easy.
So you are making wrong assumptions and taking them as fact. Also that is something we can disagree on BDO combat.
ITs funny why would people that dislike each other has a positive feeling? The way you present yourself and you view it, the way i view it and our negative interactions. One would have to be very silly to think either one has a clear understanding of the other in a truthful way.
The point isn't to look for validation on someone that attempts be leave negative impressions. The POINT is to call out that part of the comment and keep the disccusion not going in a further negative direction based on assumptions that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Because people take someone having a different opinion as personal. Even more so when certain people have negative feelings towards each other so its either to throw some passive aggressive comments.
Your own negative element suggesting you are making an observation while not actually looking at anything nor having a discussion not give it any positive truth, leading you to say rust is a mmorpg I play and calling that a mmorpg.
I don't know how many classes exist in Ashes, but I personally believe that even with a strict definition of Classes, it can be considered to be more than 8.
Even if you take games with highly flexible design, they end up having to come up with 'grouping type terms' to help players understand 'which things are similar enough to each other to be interchangeable'. Predecessor has 32 Heroes currently, and one could claim there are 5 roles (the roles you choose at game start). But really, there are at least 9 'types', and it's more like 22-27.
In an MMORPG there would be a lot more flexibility, but that flexibility exists in Pred too. The 'information' you are receiving by having the label is telling you what to expect and not expect. So 'Offlane' can be played by a 'Tank', a 'Fighter', and depending on skill, an 'Assassin'. And Support can be played by a Mage (CC heavy), Tank, 'Enchanter', 'Debuffer', or a really determined 'Instigator'.
Those are 'different ways of achieving the same thing'. So in Ashes, if Mage/Mage increases damage and control centered on the enemy, and Mage/Summoner increases damage and control centered on a position, we can probably think of these as interchangeable most of the time. There might be a way to optimize for 'maximum area control' on Mage/Summoner, and 'maximum enemy control' on Archmage, but if these two built largely the same abilities with the same goal, I wouldn't be surprised if a player who 'only played Control Mage' would only have specs for these. For some people this would mean 'these are basically the same class with different names', like comparing 'Sharpshooter' characters in Predecessor, but you'd still have different optimization options, and maybe a few unique or style-shifting augments.
But, by raw numbers, you could probably come up with 30 at least.
Since they don't intend for most of us to unlock all skills, we can equate it to the 87 or so (roughly, it's complicated) full strength Items in Predecessor as well. Some are basic, some are similar, but there's still about 64 unique ones, and they often have interesting interactions. So interesting, that if you apply them to different characters, via different base abilities, you 'create more functions'.
Ashes only has 32 Archetype Based augment schools. That's a whole 32 more to go!
Whether or not 64 classes is 'difficult to make' really comes down to whether or not players get hung up on the fact that because almost all Tanks have Javelin, it means that the one using it to Instigate, and the one using it to Protect, are the same. And that, in turn, will probably be true if the only differences are damage or mild debuffs if they target the same person.
But Riktor (Jungle) and Riktor (Support) don't even use their abilities in the same order far less 'have the same overall effects and goals when they build items to enhance those abilities'. So it's all perspective, really. If 'all Riktor are the same' to you, then Jeff's statement is right. If 'Riktor Offlane' and 'Riktor Support' are different enough that you respond to them differently and synergize with them differently, then Steven's statements are right.
Either way, the number of 'classes' can be determined by the number of Guides. If we find ourselves with lots of Guides that say 'you can pick any Secondary to use with this ability set and gear, it functions about the same' (and it's actually right) then sure, we only have 8 classes.