Also players will keep having their own meaning for what griefing is and being ganked once will be a tragedy.
This is gonna be painful... they'll happily die repeatedly to simple bot mechanics for sh1tty gameplay but god forbid someone actually attempts to engage them in anything approaching real competition and they'll run crying to forums/YouTube
"But I think we would all hate to see this game launch in a 24/7 Escape from Tarkov state when all you want to do is get a quest done. PVP should have purpose but I think players have a tendency to make it purposeless. I see player, I kill player."
Kilion: "A lot of criticism I have seen throughout my time on this forum and the subreddit is brought forth in a manner where people seem to expect the same type of people who play quick and fast games with lower price tags to come over and "grief Ashes into the ground". I don't think that this will be the case at all. Progress in Ashes will be much slower and impactful than most of the games recited for grief fest behavior. "
Vissox: People play all kinds of games, there are all kinds of players. It's stupid to just count on one group of players not showing up and designing systems that are ignorant of what anyone would try to do. You might not think that those players would not be interested in ashes, but you don't and can't know.
I didn't mean "these people won't show up"; my point is that the notion that this game would be overrun by griefers is something I think is unlikely. Meaning I also expect them to come, but not in the reckless "I'll just go nuts and then easy-peasy farm down corruption with zero risk." way because there is little to gain from that, while there is a lot more to gain from hunting these kinds of player (and people will have an advantage over these corrupted players; see the Bounty Hunter) in addition to the reputation loss with the associated Nodes and the social consequences of people refusing to cooperate with you.
And still I agreed with you that exploits should be uncovered fast. I just don't share the concern regarding the quantity of griefers, not do I agree to the notion that griefing would be a viable way to play Ashes - which are concerns that not you, but many others have shared; this was just a good opportunity to address these concerns that went beyond your point so I added my answer to those here.
I support the sentiment. If the corruption system works the way it's intended to, then going out of your way solely to grief constantly should work itself out through the penalties of the corruption system.
But I suppose other side of the coin - if you're going out of your way explicitly to see how far corruption goes; is that producing weird test results?
To counter THAT point - there are always people even in minorities who reach certain extremes; and this kind of testing is valuable to deal for these edge cases.
If a group of players do go on a rampage - then what is the player response; and in conjunction with the corruption system, does it serve as a deterrent for "excessive" killing?
I think the bolded point is the end goal. Balancing the scales. There will be a sweet spot and I think it probably does warrant pushing the system to some extremes.
I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system
This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.
Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.
Wiki: "The more corruption you gain, the less effective you become in PvP and there's going to be a certain period at which point you have gained enough corruption that you're going to be gearless and you're also going to have a massive reduction in your PvP efficacy."
This seems so obviously way overboard to me.
Gearless and stat dampening and severe death penalties and lit up on the map of all local PvPers.
The death penalties and bounty hunting feel right, risk v reward etc.
But the stat dampening is taking it too far. Why punish you before you've even died yet?
It's meant to be risk not straight up punishment.
PS: "Griefing" doesn't exist in Open World PvP MMOs
No. 🤦♂️
The concept of ‘griefing’ literally originated from ow pvp mmos.
Yup. 100% true. I have no shame to out myself as having been a griefer once too in WoW.
During TBC - because of the gear stat called "resilience" and how it affected damage & healing in PvP - Druids became overpowered during the maxlevel endgame.
They became almost unkillable, which angered me greatly cause "they are just garbage and the Paladin is the cool hybrid class, not the pathetic nature hippie who morphs into animals".
Yes this was my throught process back then.
I was young, hotblooded and... evil.
Henceforth whenever I found a Druid leveling up in the openworld, not having the gear that allowed them to be almost indestructable, I changed course on my flight mount, decendet like the Grimreaper and slaughtered that °angry beeping noises°.
And there were A LOT of people leveling Druid during that time. MADE YOU WONDER WHYYYYYYY!
With the corruption system I highly doubt there's going to be a big issue with it. Those that plan to be part of a PK group, will most likely have trash gear and weapons so unless you're running around with trash gear you have nothing to worry about.
I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system
This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.
Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.
Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.
Yes but the point is that the best way to play the game shouldn't be to not play.
With the corruption system I highly doubt there's going to be a big issue with it. Those that plan to be part of a PK group, will most likely have trash gear and weapons so unless you're running around with trash gear you have nothing to worry about.
We can only speculate. I would like to see the system at it's worst, so we have an idea of how well it's working when it's closer to it's best.
Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".
Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.
I think players will log out to avoid the bounty system
This is not only going to happen, its going to be the plan. Guild and Alliance wide mechanics abuse.
Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.
Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.
Yes but the point is that the best way to play the game shouldn't be to not play.
It's a fair point. The deterrent is still working but you're right, the game is effectively incentivising logout at that point.
Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".
Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.
100% this.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I know only one thing about corruption and that is... that I find it stupid that it - for some magical reason - does not exist during caravan attacks. Why?
What changes? xD
Caravans are primarily about prepping Nodes for Sieges, rather than about soloing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Anyone who uses the word "gankfest" is anti PvP. Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest and it barely any "anti grief" features. So if Lineage 2 wasn't a gankfest, Ashes won't be either.
Steven said that L2 could at times be a murderbox.
He also says that Corruption will prevent Ashes from being a murderbox.
Of course, that was before the addition of The Open Seas.
Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".
Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.
If an open world boss is interruptible by PVP, that means the boss would need to be easy enough to be beaten through a PVP encounter. That's all well and good if every boss encounter gets ganked, but if that isn't the case, what do you have? Boring steamroll bosses.
As long as we are generalizing, every argument against a successful corruption system (which I'm not yet convinced we have) is that it's just something that helpless PvE players want, and everyone should just shut up about it (even though the system is badly designed with PVP in mind as well). But can we get one reason why the system should not exist, or at the very least why the current system will do a good enough job? That's what the discussion is about. You aren't making an intellectual argument by saying that people with a focus on PvE elements should not be considered, it's a PvX game. That means that things outside of PVP also need to be taken account of.
So again, why is killing players participating in an already challenging boss fight a good thing?
Why are dumbed down/easy boss fights as a compromise to PVP a good thing?
Why is corruption punishing players (specifically their stats) who seek/excell at PVP encounters a good thing.
Why is the ability to log out to avoid the penalties of corruption unchallenged?
What protects solo players from group PVP?
These are important questions. This is what we need to answer. Not "lol which side of the spectrum are these people on".
I agree with the overall thought process. It should be routinely tested, thoroughly and extensively to make sure that it still hinders players from easily deciding whether to attack other players or not.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of PVP. I love it so much, but I also do believe in heavy consequences.
I agree with the overall thought process. It should be routinely tested, thoroughly and extensively to make sure that it still hinders players from easily deciding whether to attack other players or not.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of PVP. I love it so much, but I also do believe in heavy consequences.
We are on the same page. I'm not sure why everyone tries to categorize things like your either for this or against that.
PVP and PVE can and have worked congruently but games need to create a balance. We can like PVP without putting it at the expense of PvE.
Reading these comments reminds me that there's a large subset of PvE focused players who truly believe that when they are killed in open world play while trying to do content like a world boss that the PvP players are playing the game "wrong" and they label it "griefing".
Exactly my point. If it were for these "PvE players" or should I say "anti PvP players", no player would ever touch them. Nobody would contest their bosses, or their grind, or their spots, or anything really. It'd be FFXIV 2.0 (trash, boring, completely safe).
Here in this thread we have a prime example of a guy who never touched a PVP MMO in his life but he's already crying about griefing, when AoC already has 3x more punishment for PKs than Linege 2. PKing has SO many consequences, it makes zero sense to do it without a purpose. But that's not enough for him (even though he has 0 experience with PKing, just the thought of dying to a player triggers him so much that he needs to cry about it and ask for more punishment for PKing). He will get dropped once, cry on the forums, call it griefing and quit on the first day, if he ever plays at all but he's still here trying to turn AoC into FF.
The same guy says that "we need to go all out in Alpha 2 to see if it''s a problem. He's just trolling, because Alpha 2 isn't the game launch, so people won't give two shits about their gear so they WILL PK whenever they want, cause it's Alpha. Very different from game launch. So if you thought we didn't notice your little attempt at once again trying to prevent PvP/PKing, then try harder next time. Doesn't matter if Alpha 2 is a PKing festival. It's an Alpha.
Just like I said, players like him don't want to face player threats. If they're about to pick up a valuable mat and get killed, to them, that's griefing. You need to understand that these players will NEVER, EVER be okay with any form of PvP. They will never risk deaths for anyone, they just want to kill mobs and grind in peace. And there's plenty of MMOs out there where you can do that. Ashes won't be that.
Yah but context is important. What does murderbox mean? Does it mean random newbies get ass blasted by random players with top gear/level? No, that literally never happened.
It means two clans/alliances fucking hate each other and it's on sight. I've been in situations like that many many times. Most of the times you just Declared War, but since some clans didn't accept even though they had the numbers, that just meant you were forced to PK them because they'd bring numbers no matter what. At that point, PKing Vs. that Clan was almost always necessary to do anything in the open world. If you didn't, THEY would do that to you. That's a muderbox, but not in the way you'd think.
I think HybridSR may be focused on other genres of MMO PvP games than MMORPGs specifically.
Nope, I've always played MMOs. 10 years of L2 + like at least 5 years of Air Rivals/ACE Online (which was also kinda like an open World but more instanced, also heavy mass PvP game with a ton of grind. Lots of fun).
If it were for these "PvE players" or should I say "anti PvP players", no player would ever touch them. Nobody would contest their bosses, or their grind, or their spots, or anything really. It'd be FFXIV 2.0 (trash, boring, completely safe).
Here in this thread we have a prime example of a guy who never touched a PVP MMO in his life but he's already crying about griefing, when AoC already has 3x more punishment for PKs than Linege 2. PKing has SO many consequences, it makes zero sense to do it without a purpose. But that's not enough for him (even though he has 0 experience with PKing, just the thought of dying to a player triggers him so much that he needs to cry about it and ask for more punishment for PKing).He'll get dropped once, cry and call it griefing and quit on the first day, if he ever plays at all but he's still here trying to turn AoC into FF.
Just like I said, players like him don't want to face player threats. If they're about to pick up a valuable mat and get killed, to them, that's griefing. You need to understand that these players will NEVER, EVER be okay with any form of PvP. They will never risk deaths for anyone, they just want to kill mobs and grind in peace. And there's plenty of MMOs out there where you can do that. Ashes won't be that.
I’d like them to have a showcase on corruption and the bounty system. Just think until they see it and possibly play it, the chicken little crowd will claim world PVP will doom the game. Need to show how corruption works, how quickly it can stack up, and what the downside is for those who participate. That also applies to the nonparticipants on the other end of the involuntary PVP.
Then demonstrate the benefits of engaging in bounty hunting.
Demonstrate the time sink representing the penalty for being naughty.
I think the most annoying part of world PVP can be spawn camping. Even in team vs team PVP where a group can focus fire to take players out one by one and then the timing on the respawn makes it an endless loop. Sure you can have invulnerability timers, but you can get around that. I personally like the idea of rally points where teams can regroup. Different locations on the map that makes spawn camping much more difficult.
Comments
This is gonna be painful... they'll happily die repeatedly to simple bot mechanics for sh1tty gameplay but god forbid someone actually attempts to engage them in anything approaching real competition and they'll run crying to forums/YouTube
I didn't mean "these people won't show up"; my point is that the notion that this game would be overrun by griefers is something I think is unlikely. Meaning I also expect them to come, but not in the reckless "I'll just go nuts and then easy-peasy farm down corruption with zero risk." way because there is little to gain from that, while there is a lot more to gain from hunting these kinds of player (and people will have an advantage over these corrupted players; see the Bounty Hunter) in addition to the reputation loss with the associated Nodes and the social consequences of people refusing to cooperate with you.
And still I agreed with you that exploits should be uncovered fast. I just don't share the concern regarding the quantity of griefers, not do I agree to the notion that griefing would be a viable way to play Ashes - which are concerns that not you, but many others have shared; this was just a good opportunity to address these concerns that went beyond your point so I added my answer to those here.
You tell other players to Get Fucked when they've killed you? Or was that just a typo of Good Game?
ha, made the same assumption
But I suppose other side of the coin - if you're going out of your way explicitly to see how far corruption goes; is that producing weird test results?
To counter THAT point - there are always people even in minorities who reach certain extremes; and this kind of testing is valuable to deal for these edge cases.
If a group of players do go on a rampage - then what is the player response; and in conjunction with the corruption system, does it serve as a deterrent for "excessive" killing?
I think the bolded point is the end goal. Balancing the scales. There will be a sweet spot and I think it probably does warrant pushing the system to some extremes.
Having to log out with the intention of logging in during quiet hours to work off corruption sounds like a pretty effective deterrent against griefing to me.
Also the logout timer is 60 secs when corrupted.
"The more corruption you gain, the less effective you become in PvP and there's going to be a certain period at which point you have gained enough corruption that you're going to be gearless and you're also going to have a massive reduction in your PvP efficacy."
This seems so obviously way overboard to me.
Gearless and stat dampening and severe death penalties and lit up on the map of all local PvPers.
The death penalties and bounty hunting feel right, risk v reward etc.
But the stat dampening is taking it too far. Why punish you before you've even died yet?
It's meant to be risk not straight up punishment.
Yup. 100% true. I have no shame to out myself as having been a griefer once too in WoW.
During TBC - because of the gear stat called "resilience" and how it affected damage & healing in PvP - Druids became overpowered during the maxlevel endgame.
They became almost unkillable, which angered me greatly cause "they are just garbage and the Paladin is the cool hybrid class, not the pathetic nature hippie who morphs into animals".
Yes this was my throught process back then.
I was young, hotblooded and... evil.
Henceforth whenever I found a Druid leveling up in the openworld, not having the gear that allowed them to be almost indestructable, I changed course on my flight mount, decendet like the Grimreaper and slaughtered that °angry beeping noises°.
And there were A LOT of people leveling Druid during that time.
MADE YOU WONDER WHYYYYYYY!
We can only speculate. I would like to see the system at it's worst, so we have an idea of how well it's working when it's closer to it's best.
Looking at other MMOs' historical missteps, we can see that capitulating to these players will eventually remove all risk and emotion from the game. Hopefully the Ashes team recognizes that players truly do not really know what they want. Reject the "QoL" cries, the "griefing" cries, and stick to the formula you have laid out. It's not wrong, it just hurts, and players will cry about it until you remove the risk, then quit because the content has lost all feeling.
It's a fair point. The deterrent is still working but you're right, the game is effectively incentivising logout at that point.
100% this.
He also says that Corruption will prevent Ashes from being a murderbox.
Of course, that was before the addition of The Open Seas.
If an open world boss is interruptible by PVP, that means the boss would need to be easy enough to be beaten through a PVP encounter. That's all well and good if every boss encounter gets ganked, but if that isn't the case, what do you have? Boring steamroll bosses.
As long as we are generalizing, every argument against a successful corruption system (which I'm not yet convinced we have) is that it's just something that helpless PvE players want, and everyone should just shut up about it (even though the system is badly designed with PVP in mind as well). But can we get one reason why the system should not exist, or at the very least why the current system will do a good enough job? That's what the discussion is about. You aren't making an intellectual argument by saying that people with a focus on PvE elements should not be considered, it's a PvX game. That means that things outside of PVP also need to be taken account of.
So again, why is killing players participating in an already challenging boss fight a good thing?
Why are dumbed down/easy boss fights as a compromise to PVP a good thing?
Why is corruption punishing players (specifically their stats) who seek/excell at PVP encounters a good thing.
Why is the ability to log out to avoid the penalties of corruption unchallenged?
What protects solo players from group PVP?
These are important questions. This is what we need to answer. Not "lol which side of the spectrum are these people on".
Ultima Online. I never played it but I'm pretty sure that's where it comes from.
I think HybridSR may be focused on other genres of MMO PvP games than MMORPGs specifically.
Like MMO FPS or MMO Survival, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of PVP. I love it so much, but I also do believe in heavy consequences.
I don't know bro why don't you google it. I just answered your question.
We are on the same page. I'm not sure why everyone tries to categorize things like your either for this or against that.
PVP and PVE can and have worked congruently but games need to create a balance. We can like PVP without putting it at the expense of PvE.
UO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer#:~:text=A griefer or bad-faith,or stealing something, such as
Here we are debating the definition of MMO again, I'm pretty sure noone gives a monkeys
lmao. it's short for "good fight"
Exactly my point. If it were for these "PvE players" or should I say "anti PvP players", no player would ever touch them. Nobody would contest their bosses, or their grind, or their spots, or anything really. It'd be FFXIV 2.0 (trash, boring, completely safe).
Here in this thread we have a prime example of a guy who never touched a PVP MMO in his life but he's already crying about griefing, when AoC already has 3x more punishment for PKs than Linege 2. PKing has SO many consequences, it makes zero sense to do it without a purpose. But that's not enough for him (even though he has 0 experience with PKing, just the thought of dying to a player triggers him so much that he needs to cry about it and ask for more punishment for PKing). He will get dropped once, cry on the forums, call it griefing and quit on the first day, if he ever plays at all but he's still here trying to turn AoC into FF.
The same guy says that "we need to go all out in Alpha 2 to see if it''s a problem. He's just trolling, because Alpha 2 isn't the game launch, so people won't give two shits about their gear so they WILL PK whenever they want, cause it's Alpha. Very different from game launch. So if you thought we didn't notice your little attempt at once again trying to prevent PvP/PKing, then try harder next time. Doesn't matter if Alpha 2 is a PKing festival. It's an Alpha.
Just like I said, players like him don't want to face player threats. If they're about to pick up a valuable mat and get killed, to them, that's griefing. You need to understand that these players will NEVER, EVER be okay with any form of PvP. They will never risk deaths for anyone, they just want to kill mobs and grind in peace. And there's plenty of MMOs out there where you can do that. Ashes won't be that.
Yah but context is important. What does murderbox mean? Does it mean random newbies get ass blasted by random players with top gear/level? No, that literally never happened.
It means two clans/alliances fucking hate each other and it's on sight. I've been in situations like that many many times. Most of the times you just Declared War, but since some clans didn't accept even though they had the numbers, that just meant you were forced to PK them because they'd bring numbers no matter what. At that point, PKing Vs. that Clan was almost always necessary to do anything in the open world. If you didn't, THEY would do that to you. That's a muderbox, but not in the way you'd think.
Nope, I've always played MMOs. 10 years of L2 + like at least 5 years of Air Rivals/ACE Online (which was also kinda like an open World but more instanced, also heavy mass PvP game with a ton of grind. Lots of fun).
Spot on.
Then demonstrate the benefits of engaging in bounty hunting.
Demonstrate the time sink representing the penalty for being naughty.
I think the most annoying part of world PVP can be spawn camping. Even in team vs team PVP where a group can focus fire to take players out one by one and then the timing on the respawn makes it an endless loop. Sure you can have invulnerability timers, but you can get around that. I personally like the idea of rally points where teams can regroup. Different locations on the map that makes spawn camping much more difficult.