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Current forced pvp will kill the game

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Comments

  • mainedutchmainedutch Member, Alpha Two
    RedLeader1 wrote: »
    We are just testing the core PvE element, that would exist even if it was a purely PvP game or a purely PvE game, but I must say cracks are appearing. My optimism for a truly PvX game has taken a hit.

    I think a corruption system to balance the risk/reward for PvP players killing and disincentivizing players focused on PvE is necessary. But I would say that a bigger priority is incentivising those PvE players to play in the first place.

    I think the goal in a PvX game, is to create content gated behind PvE and PvP, so that a team comprised of both PvE focused players and PvP focused players, or all-rounders, is most successful.

    All I am seeing is a PvP focused game. Even the grinding in groups and zergs is very PvP oriented, because gathering and crafting is a solo operation. When artisanship is added, are all the mobs going to be rebalanced? Because I am too far behind now to do anything after 1 weekend. I cant rejoin the group grinding and I cant solo anywhere.

    Right now I don't think me dying repeatedly out in the wild, grinding to 10 for 3 days in the starter area, trying to compete for mobs in a level 9 group amongst the level 15 groups, or spamming LFG is helping test much.

    I think a more holistic design to the first 15 levels is required, because it is going to require a lot of rework to balance PvE leveling in with what we have at the moment.

    I just made two new characters today and have had no trouble finding random groups. Just go to a spot and start inviting people.

    Plus you can get 1-6, hell even 7 or 8, pretty easily by yourself right now.
  • SigtyrSigtyr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Steven has said many times that this game is not for everybody. There are core visions of this game that simply will not be changed, no matter how many times someone makes this thread.
  • AndiAndi Member, Alpha Two
    People really, really need to stop using "not for everybody".
  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ratbait wrote: »
    Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

    Crafters and Processors stick to towns, because you can't progress either path out in the wilds to any significant degree.

    Gatherers are out in the wilds to gather and need to learn how to PvP, same as they need decent enough gear and skill to get through mobs between them and the resources they want to harvest.

    Gameplay-casual players aren't really the demographic Ashes is looking to appeal to. Time-casual maybe, but not gameplay-casual. Your nodes and progress in them all live and die by PvP.
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Andi wrote: »
    People really, really need to stop using "not for everybody".

    Ok, its designed for a specific audience with a particular game play preference....
  • redherringredherring Member, Alpha Two
    Sigtyr wrote: »
    Steven has said many times that this game is not for everybody. There are core visions of this game that simply will not be changed, no matter how many times someone makes this thread.

    I sometimes see this phrase used as a rally cry that this game should be PvP-centric, period. That may not be what you are stating, but all the PvP "let me kill everyone with no consequences is what my brain hears.

    Then, you see Steven state "killing low levels is not a thing and I will ban you" and the same group loses their minds... as this isn't the game for them.

    As a gatherer, crafter, and solo player, I love the current balance. I am fine with the game rewarding grouping.

    I think overall for the minimal alpha content that is in, it isn't bad. We don't really have the designed "null sec" places or whole mechanics even in yet (high seas), hence alpha and partial information.

    There are some classes that are good 1-10 and then fall off. There are some classes that are bad 1-10 and then get strong. There are some people starting to flag more often. There are new players that pick up from an ashes pile and immediately flag and realize that is bad.

    I prefer the "show me" then "tell me", and sometimes I think certain PvPers are really hanging onto the "tell me" way too much and being wrong.

    However, when you use Steven's phrase, you need to realize it is OK for Steven to say that. Steven has a vision and almost no one else is going to mean the same thing when he says it. It is more clear for you to state "this game should lean heavier on PvP in "this way". That is good and something to discuss.

    Having a mantra call that doesn't mean what you think it means (to everyone) is not helpful and just seems like mob mentality.

  • BarzelBarzel Member, Alpha Two
    Ah, this old argument. Well, I'd say Intrepid simply needs to decide how many players they want. If they want a larger community, and presumably more revenue, they will design PvP in such a way that it neither allows for griefing, nor makes the game punitive for new players. Or, conversely, they can have a smaller population of dedicated PvP players with very little PvP restriction.
    "’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe."
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you want a full PVP sandbox just play Rust...Otherwise I can point to a number of full loot open PVP MMOs that have all failed.
    If you want a PVE tailored MMO experience I can point you to the last 10 years of MMOs

    there are currently no PVX MMOs and if any are still around P2W has likely made them a husk of what they used to be.

    There are plenty of potential oldschool gamers just waiting for 'thier game' the question is can Intrepid attain/retain new players with no prior PVX MMO gaming experiences or MMO preconceptions.

    A game that tries to appeal to everybody inevitably appeals to nobody.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    Symbiosome wrote: »
    I agree with Steven that pvp should be for game political reasons, fight over resources, etc.
    But ... people who can grief will always exist and Ashes will NEVER be able to control it.
    Big Streamers will never be able to really cover the game and it will take revenue from the game.
    Casual players will not want to login for 30 min and deal with a griever. If you can not play the game the way you want people will leave.
    This will cause the game to be too niche. And I really really like playing Ashes ... this will be sad.

    Bottom line, consider the unconsentual pvp system the way it is now. Your current penalties will not stop grievers, and you can not police it.

    Honestly? Baiting people into going corrupt is more of a grief than forcing pvp on people who don't want it. Going corrupt is such a punishment it's not worth doing (and that's a good thing)
  • chickengeorgechickengeorge Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited December 2024
    Sigtyr wrote: »
    Steven has said many times that this game is not for everybody. There are core visions of this game that simply will not be changed, no matter how many times someone makes this thread.

    Reduce your player base, great business model. I guess we'll find out in a few years.
  • sciffer2014sciffer2014 Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    ratbait wrote: »
    Casual crafters wont play a game like this,to spend 2 hours gathering just to have a guy roll up and kill you,lose half your stuff just isnt worth it.But hey lets incentivize the griefing by giving the killer 25% of your stuff for 1 seconds farming gatherers.

    what idiot spends 2 hour gathing/farming and never does a bank break? to be fair they deserve to loose it if they dont bank often :P

    That's a weird quote, player travel 15/20 minutes to gathering spot, spend 40 minutes gathering. Come back to their bank - that's a 20 minutes. So let's say an hour and half is the minimum time you'll likely spend on gathering at any given time.

    Just because you focus on killing people who are 20 level bellow your character don't tell them they are idiots please !
  • sciffer2014sciffer2014 Member, Alpha Two
    Sigtyr wrote: »
    Steven has said many times that this game is not for everybody. There are core visions of this game that simply will not be changed, no matter how many times someone makes this thread.

    Reduce your player base, great business model. I guess we'll find out in a few years.

    They should be doing an official game pillar statement for MMO. I've been reading this one to figure out the overall direction, but it would be nice if the official site could hold a page for the design philosophy behind the game. : https://fr.ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars#:~:text=Ashes%20of%20Creation%20is%20a%20PvX%20game%20built%20on%20the,game%20will%20never%20be%20changed..

    Personally I don't disagree that reducing your player base is kind of great business model. By focusing on what you wanna do, instead of how many player it is likely to attract, you'll be likely to keep your designated player base happy and stay in business longer. If you start catering to everyone like and dislike your game is likely to become generic and overall you'll start to cater unknowingly to a specific audience. Then you might still have a game, but your game will be dead.
  • RockyfourRockyfour Member, Alpha Two
    You can take a peak at Steam Charts and realize OP has no idea what he is talking about. PvP games are incredibly popular and just because all the PvP MMO's have been mediocre or filled with bugs and performance issues does not mean that this game needs to pivot from it's PvP focus even in the slightest.
  • sciffer2014sciffer2014 Member, Alpha Two
    Rockyfour wrote: »
    You can take a peak at Steam Charts and realize OP has no idea what he is talking about. PvP games are incredibly popular and just because all the PvP MMO's have been mediocre or filled with bugs and performance issues does not mean that this game needs to pivot from it's PvP focus even in the slightest.

    Isn't it a PVX focus game ? I mean, I do agree that people who missed DAOC and stuff are looking for the next PVP focus MMO, but I don't believe this is it either. The PVP is likely to enter inside the risk vs. reward category as well and some player who are looking to reign supreme as they get into the PVP are also likely to feel like the game wants their death.

    From experience, when a game start to say that it has a robust PVP system in mind, you'll start seeing a part of the community's eye turn red with blood - like shark smelling blood in the water - and they'll usually stop thinking about anything else which might have be said and just start believing PVP will rule the world.

    Like don't get me wrong PVP game are OP on the steamchart, but you don't loose your Fortnite's skin when you loose a game. The risk vs reward system that MMO have to build-in in order to achieve balance is delicate when it comes to PVX and not "Realm vs. Realm" type of game.

    At this point, it is likely that PVP will see nerf (PVP is actually incomplete at this point which is why corrupt system work this way ATM, from what I read. We are not a great place to start using our thinking cap, but still :) ). The game is focus on giving player agency over the development of the map through PVP but it has, from my understanding, been stated that the PVP will be a world defining system not really a dominant gameplay experience. So overall, the game is likely to have a more complex PVE, with a huge need for PVP in order to achieve specific goal. It is unlikely to be a huge PVP world, with some PVE in it. People who are looking for full on PVP experience are also likely to be ask to go seek an other game.
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