Character Models

Andi

This is supposedly a female.

Where are her hips?

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Noaani

Andi wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Actually, we don't "need" to understand anything about how a product is being developed as a customer.

Sure, but right now you are a tester, not a customer.

Nope. Nowhere did we sign a contract as QA. We did pay though for access to an alpha version.

I was talking to Vhaeyne, not you.

Vhaeyne purchased a supporter pack (or was it a kickstarter pack? - same result either way), which is not paying for a product, not being a customer. That supporter pack happened to give him access to alpha, but the point of the pack was to support Intrepid, not as a purchase of a product.

Thus, Vhaeyne is not a customer.

As for whether you are a customer or not, I don't give a shit. If you want to disagree and say that you are a customer because you purchased access to a test, have at it. The thing is, then you need to be aware that what you purchased was access to a test, not a game.

You purchased the experience of being QA.

Welcome to being QA.

Ulderek

Noaani wrote: »

I don't give a shit. .

ok. I'm not a customer and neither will my wife be if the characters continue to look like ****.
Which is unfortunate as the functional aspects of the game are highly interesting to me.

Noaani

Ulderek wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I don't give a shit. .

ok. I'm not a customer and neither will my wife be if the characters continue to look like ****.
Which is unfortunate as the functional aspects of the game are highly interesting to me.

Cool - that's perfectly fair.

However, how about waiting until they are done before forming an opinion on them?

As I said earlier, the entire system for character creation and models is perhaps 10% implemented. How many things do you know of where someone not involved in the creation process can form a decently valid opinion based on 10% of something?

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Sure, but right now you are a tester, not a customer.

I am not going to play these word games with you.
I am in fact a customer before I am anything when it comes to Ashes.
That fact is undebatable.

Even if I did not buy the game and what not testing it. All of my feedback would still be valid because Intrepid has encouraged the community to not buy the game and wait and watch it on streams and Youtube. This is why you don't need to be a tester to post here.

Noaani wrote: »

Valid feedback takes this in to account. Invalid feedback, or whining, does not.

I am not at all interested in your opinions what what is and is not valid feedback or whining.

This is a blatant attempt to diminish the thoughts and opinions of other people. I don't think many people are here for it.

Intrepid wrote:

Join general discussions and share your thoughts, opinions, and feedback for everything related to the Ashes of Creation Alpha Two testing phase!

"Thoughts","Opinions","everything related to the Ashes of Creation Alpha Two"?

It's almost like Intrepid is asking for us to have this discussion on our terms and not @Noaani's.

Andi

Noaani wrote: »

You purchased the experience of being QA.

Welcome to being QA.

Take a look at what you buy before you do.
This is the "join the alpha" page, where it states "allowing you to experience and influence" and "you’ll have a unique opportunity to help shape".
No obligations. Privileges, bought with money.
We are paying customers.

If you have problems understanding the concept, maybe look into this article.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am not at all interested in your opinions what what is and is not valid feedback or whining.

To be clear, it wasn't you I was saying is whining - it is the post I called out. I can see how you would think I meant you though, and that's my bad for not being clearer.

You are indeed right that I am attempting to deminish the opinions of others on this matter - simply because those opinions are - for the most part - not taking in to account what we know is still to be implemented, let alone what we don't know is still to be implemented.

"Thoughts","Opinions","everything related to the Ashes of Creation Alpha Two"?

Keep in mind - this is exactly what I am doing as well.

My thoughts and opinions on Ashes current state is that it isn't complete. I am sharing that, and pointing out that it is something people should be taking in to account when forming their thoughts and opinions on it.

I'm not actually saying people shouldn't have thoughts and opinions, just that they should include what we know is still to be implemented.

Am I wrong in that? Should people NOT be taking in to account that this is an alpha, and that we KNOW Intrepid have things like blending and sculpting planned for the character creator? I mean, I don't see any of you that are complaining about the current state talking about what we KNOW they intend to add, why am I in the wrong (according to you) for pointing out this extremely important objective fact?

I'll reiterate my earlier question to you; of the complaints you currently have about the character creator (ignoring models for now, just the character crator), which specific complaint will hold up still once sculpting and blending are implemented?

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I'm not actually saying people shouldn't have thoughts and opinions, just that they should include what we know is still to be implemented.

"Join general discussions and share your thoughts, opinions, and feedback for everything related to the Ashes of Creation Alpha Two testing phase!"

Everything...

In order to be fully truthful I don't believe thoughts and opinions should really be governed by what others think "should" be included.

If I look at these character models and they make me feel like I don't want to engage with the content of "looking at my characters face". That is the truth.

It serves the game no good for people to hide how they feel about things from the Dev's because everything is a work in progress.

We have 0% implementation on the family teleport system and I believe the feedback on that is also mostly negative.

Noaani wrote: »

Am I wrong in that? Should people NOT be taking in to account that this is an alpha, and that we KNOW Intrepid have things like blending and sculpting planned for the character creator? I mean, I don't see any of you that are complaining about the current state talking about what we KNOW they intend to add, why am I in the wrong (according to you) for pointing out this extremely important objective fact?

There are points in this thread where many have acknowledged the fact that the nothing is complete and their is still more to come. I believe most people in here are talking about what they are currently seeing and what they would like to see instead.

Entertain this:

If you tell me you have an idea. You have 0% of a final product yet. You have done nothing yet to implement this idea. I can still give you thoughts, opinions, and feedback on your idea.

Noaani wrote: »

I'll reiterate my earlier question to you; of the complaints you currently have about the character creator (ignoring models for now, just the character crator), which specific complaint will hold up still once sculpting and blending are implemented?

The thread is about the Character models.

To humor you:
It is entirely possible that once sculpting and blending are fully implemented. It may still be too difficult or outright impossible to get character models proportions or faces that look good.

For all we know what sculpting we have right now may actually be all we are getting. Blending could just be the average between two sculpts. Which is helpful, but would not create any new possibilities that can not be made from pure sculpting.

Unfortunately we live in an era where game studios are speed running failure by forcing new aesthetics and restrictions on characters that would not have otherwise existed in the past. Some of us are rightfully concerned at this time that Ashes "may" have this problem. If this is the case then all of the blending and sculpting in the world can't help us.

I hope that everyone in this thread wants to see Ashes succeed.

kadimir

Glad I paid 120$ to not be a customer.

Maybe Naooni can ask Merriam Webster to update their definition

": one that purchases a commodity or service; subject to review by the Ashes of Creation forum user Naoomi, terms subject to change whenever it would result in a higher post count for said user"

Teyloune

With the Character Creator, we’ll probably see some big changes down the line once the focus shifts to making characters look great. Right now, it’s all about functionality for testing in Alpha 2, so we’re not there yet.

When it comes to clothing, though? Players should have full freedom to dress their characters however they want. Want to show some skin? Go for it. Want to suit up in full plate armor? Hell yeah. Want something in between? Awesome, mix and match, get creative, and have fun with it. The issue only arises when players are forced into specific categories or limited options. The solution is simple: give people the freedom to dress how they want and express themselves.

And if you don’t like how someone else chooses to dress their character? Honestly, I don’t know what to tell you. Ignore them, or go fight them in-game, but let people enjoy their choices. It’s their character, their rules.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

"Join general discussions and share your thoughts, opinions, and feedback for everything related to the Ashes of Creation Alpha Two testing phase!"

Everything...

In order to be fully truthful I don't believe thoughts and opinions should really be governed by what others think "should" be included.

So, Steven said everything. You emphasized everything, and then you say (paraphrasing) "well, maybe not everything".

Feedback for everything related to alpha 2. Having an eye on what they have stated is to come is a part of everything.

Giving feedback without taking in to account what we know is planned is indeed of little to no value. You are saying quite literally saying "these half finished characters models don't seem finished to me". That is how the "feedback" in this thread reads to anyone at Intrepid.

To humor you:
It is entirely possible that once sculpting and blending are fully implemented. It may still be too difficult or outright impossible to get character models proportions or faces that look good.

It may be - but it may not be.

You don't know.

However, despite knowing this is something that is planned, and may resolve all of the issues you have, none of you thought to state that the plans we know of may resolve the issue, had a go at me when I pointed this out, and left the person stating that the models need to be scrapped to make that statement unchallenged.

That is all completely unreasonable on your part - and I do recall you as being a more reasonable poster than that.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Giving feedback without taking in to account what we know is planned is indeed of little to no value. You are saying quite literally saying "these half finished characters models don't seem finished to me". That is how the "feedback" in this thread reads to anyone at Intrepid.

This is all your opinion.

You seem to forget that Intrepid asks for feedback on everything. They have done this literally ever step of the way. They want feedback so bad they actively tell people to not buy the alpha and to just watch the livestreams and give feedback on what they can find online.

Intrepid may be the most thirsty game company on the planet when it comes to wanting feedback. Thirsty.

Noaani wrote: »

However, despite knowing this is something that is planned, and may resolve all of the issues you have, none of you thought to state that the plans we know of may resolve the issue, had a go at me when I pointed this out, and left the person stating that the models need to be scrapped to make that statement unchallenged.

That is all completely unreasonable on your part - and I do recall you as being a more reasonable poster than that.

"may resolve all of the issues you have"

I don't know that the issue will be resolved so my feedback has been dislike for what we currently have.

If the future update fixes these issues then my feedback will change to praise.

I don't recall saying the current models to be scrapped. I would agree that is unreasonable.

Unless we are talking about the Niküa... In which case they must be destroyed... JK

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

This is all your opinion.

You seem to forget that Intrepid asks for feedback on everything. They have done this literally ever step of the way. They want feedback so bad they actively tell people to not buy the alpha and to just watch the livestreams and give feedback on what they can find online.

Intrepid may be the most thirsty game company on the planet when it comes to wanting feedback. Thirsty.

Lets say I agree with this (I don't), there is still a difference between "this thing that isn't finished seems unfinished to me", and "this thing that isn't finished seems unfinished to me, I'm hoping that x and y that we know are still to come can resolve this shortcoming, in the following way...".

Just saying that unfinished things aren't finished isn't feedback, it is stating the obvious.

I don't know that the issue will be resolved so my feedback has been dislike for what we currently have.

Right - but you also forgot to include any mention at all of these things that we know to expect.

I have no issue with anyone saying "right now this doesn't meet my expectation", however, that should be followed by a statement along the lines of "but these things that we know are still to come may help this situation".

This is because even though you may be directing feedback at Intrepid, many others read these forums (and some even post here). These forums are one of the main places people look to for information on the game.

I don't recall saying the current models to be scrapped. I would agree that is unreasonable.

I'm aware it wasn't you - I quoted the post with this comment in it as an example of the sorts of comments in this thread you should be taking exception to, as opposed to taking exception to someone saying that the thing that is being complained about is not even close to half way finished yet.

You are 100% free to disagree, but to me, it is the statement that the character models need to be scrapped that should be jumped on and told that no, they are wrong, as opposed to the person pointing out the objective truth that there is more to come.

Andi

@Vhaeyne I put that guy on ignore. He's obviously a troll and forum post count farmer, not interested in discussion in the least. You can see that by his flimsy arguments and moving goalposts.

Not worth wasting your time on.

That being said, hope he keeps bumping this thread.

Noaani

Andi wrote: »

You can see that by his flimsy arguments and moving goalposts.

What goalposts?

I don't set goalposts in place, because doing so requires setting out every aspect of disagreement I have with a given topic.

I'm not interested in typing that much most of the time, and you are not willing to read that much.

So, rather than that, I bring up the most obvious issue I have. When it happens that people are happy to just ignore that point, j then bring in other issues I have with it - which is when people like you claim shifting goal posts.

If a person doesn't lay out an argument and state that this is their argument in its entirety, they haven't laid out any goal posts - and thus aren't shifting them. You thinking someone has laid out their whole argument doesn't mean they have.

kadimir

Noaani wrote: »

Giving feedback without taking in to account what we know is planned is indeed of little to no value. You are saying quite literally saying "these half finished characters models don't seem finished to me". That is how the "feedback" in this thread reads to anyone at Intrepid.

Noaani ordering a pizza:

N: "hi, I'd like a large pizza with pepperoni"
Empl: "Large pizza with green peppers, got it "
N - watches staff put green peppers and no pepperoni while preparing it
N - watches staff put pizza in oven
N - watches staff take pizza out, slice it and put it into a box
N - watches staff handing him piza
N: "umm, excuse me - I wanted a large pizza with pepperoni, not green peppers"
Empl: "why didn't you say something this whole time you watched me make it?"
N: "feedback when the pizza is unfinished is of little to no value"
Empl: "I'm calling the police, you're the reason kids pictures end up on milk cartons you sicko"

Noaani

I'm not sure how you have connected these two things.

My comments are that you should take all communication from Intrepid in to account. In regards to ordering pizza, that means taking all communication from the pizza place in to account.

A better analogy if you want to use pizza would be the people complaining in this thread ordering that same pepperoni pizza, seeing the worker take out a pizza base, and IMMEDIATELY rage saying they demand pepperoni.

Thst is your pizza analogy as it applies to anyone in this thread.

GreatPhilisopher

Noaani wrote: »

I'm not sure how you have connected these two things.

My comments are that you should take all communication from Intrepid in to account. In regards to ordering pizza, that means taking all communication from the pizza place in to account.

A better analogy if you want to use pizza would be the people complaining in this thread ordering that same pepperoni pizza, seeing the worker take out a pizza base, and IMMEDIATELY rage saying they demand pepperoni.

Thst is your pizza analogy as it applies to anyone in this thread.

except right now its more like ordering that same pepperoni pizza, seeing the worker take out a pizza base, put everything but pepperoni on it then we rage before they put it in the oven while also showing concern throughout them making the dough of the pizza cuz they kept putting and changing actual good ingredients

kadimir

Noaani wrote: »

I'm not sure how you have connected these two things.

My comments are that you should take all communication from Intrepid in to account. In regards to ordering pizza, that means taking all communication from the pizza place in to account.

A better analogy if you want to use pizza would be the people complaining in this thread ordering that same pepperoni pizza, seeing the worker take out a pizza base, and IMMEDIATELY rage saying they demand pepperoni.

Thst is your pizza analogy as it applies to anyone in this thread.

I wish you'd take a pizza' advice and remove your head from your lower GI track.

They've made a very excited reveal of this part of their product 2 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_PasE-_W6M&ab_channel=AshesofCreation

At no point did they make it seen like a makeshift stand in, and that pizza's been in the oven for a long time now. An entirely new character gen might entail completely re-rigging all of the 3d models for equipment, animations, ect. For you to think they are going to switch that out later and have to re-build half of the 3d assets in the game is absolutely wild. This is what they were going with, obviously - and it's not in a place that people are happy.

Andi

The char creator they had in that video (UE4) was vastly superior over what we have right now. I wonder what went wrong. Were they unable to port it over? Is the current one a placeholder, too?

Also, I hope we will get character lighting. Right now, I can't even see what my character looks like, and she doesn't stand out at all.

GreatPhilisopher

Andi wrote: »

The char creator they had in that video (UE4) was vastly superior over what we have right now. I wonder what went wrong. Were they unable to port it over? Is the current one a placeholder, too?

Also, I hope we will get character lighting. Right now, I can't even see what my character looks like, and she doesn't stand out at all.

the fun thing is that was a UE5 video lol

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