Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
đź“ť Dev Discussion #73 - Boss Environments đź‘ą
Dev Discussions are an opportunity to join in on player discussions about topics that Intrepid Studios want to hear your thoughts on. This is less about asking us questions, and more about us asking YOU the questions! If you do have questions about Ashes of Creation, keep an eye our social media channels for our monthly livestreams, check out the Ashes of Creation community wiki, or try the #questions channel in Discord!
In this thread, we’ll be discussing:
Dev Discussion - Boss Environments
How can the environment and setting of a boss encounter enhance the challenge and immersion of the battle? Feel free to share examples of bosses and their environments that you like from other games!
0
Comments
But I'd like to draw Attention to Guild Wars 1 - Urgoz Lair.
Guild Wars works differently than AoC but I personally have fond memories of the experience.
Urgoz Lair at one point was one of the most difficult dungeons within the game. The difficulty was not just the mobs within but one other major factor: Length.
In GW1 if the whole group died the run was over. To get to Urgoz a run could take easily 5 Hours if the group was inexperienced and careful.
Urgoz himself wasn't that difficult as a boss but getting to him was definitely a challenge. Which made it feel like a real dungeon.
Once you killed him it was such a relief.
Any time a player died they got a stat debuff of 15%. Which stacked up. Sugar Canes which removed 15%.
I could see Intrepid doing a similar, possibly instanced, dungeon. Not multiple, but one very interesting and rewarding one. The mobs are hard. Harder than usual. They require specific strategies to beat. Which makes the trash mobs themselves to mini-bosses.
The dungeon is looooong. There are basically no save points. I would concede today that maybe logging out is permitted. So the run can be split into multiple sessions. But leaving is not. And you can't get back in. You can be rezzed. Sure. But if everyone wipes, its over. Once you are in, you are committed.
One minor but maybe also critical point is that you needed to spend resources to be even able to get to the starting point of Urgoz Lair. If you wiped you were sent back to the hub. But if you left the hub you would have to then pay the entrance fee again. Meaning, doing Urgoz Runs was a bit of a commitment.
No beef to the sweaty pvers who want that sort of gameplay, to each their own. I like mindless mob grinding and easy bosses. Only reason I pve is to get gear and be less bad at pvp
Cheers verrans!🍻
Lich King's throne, from Icecrown Citadel in WoW.
FF14 takes the cake in terms of boss music, however.
The lvl40 boss is in a cave somewhere? Let us use some kind of machinery, that can be operated by lowbies, that shoots at stalactites on the ceiling and helps out the main raid group during important moments.
Enable that machinery only when there's an additional group of lowbies in the raid (ideally done through a guild system that lets you add another party on top of the 40 raiders), and add mobs of their lvls that will spawn and aggro only around that machinery.
Imo stuff like that would not only increase general immersion of the encounter, but would also highly promote cross-lvl interactions between players. Guilds will be more likely to take some lowbie to the boss with them, which will integrate any potential newbies into the game faster and easier, and will also show them their own future content.
Examples:
-Boss hits the ceiling of a cavern and stalactites or stalagmites fall down on players.
-Player in ruins hits the pillar in at the bottom to knock it down on boss.
-Fighting a boss at the top floor of a tower, but with each phase he destroys the floor beneath you. Leading you all the way to the basement area.
-Boss is a vampire type creature and the room is in dark, but entire area has mirrors that you can rotate and reflect the beam of light that is coming through cracks to damage him.
-Boss is too mobile and it flies off, but if you shoot enough chained harpoons at it and pin him down the fight is easier.
-Boss is sensitive to sound and there is a giant gong in the room that you must hit to weaken it.
-Solving environmental puzzle or performing a ritual to summon the boss.
-Visible marks when boss, for example, cleaves the ground. Different results if you are, for example, fighting in a tall grass (cutting it) vs stone pavement (slight slash on ground)...
-If boss falls over near the wall it knocks it down. Same goes if it rushes through if its big enough.
-If the boss, for example, sets fire to an area and you use some water/ice based AoE magic it extinguishes it with visible steam coming from the ground.
2. Storytelling through environment.
Environment and boss should always compliment each other stories.
Maybe the boss area is tied to tragic tale of a character or boss is literally fused with the walls. It changes your reason to fight in a game.
Fighting a boss who lost everyone next to their loved ones graves in cemetery vs fighting with the same person in tavern will have different emotional impact-Don't you agree?
Yes, some people don't care about that, but there are some who do.
3. Introduction of the bosses is very important because it sets up character for the thing you are fighting. It hypes you up and immerses you. Soulsborne games do it perfectly with 1 short scene when you first encounter the boss. I doubt it would cost a lot to animate 5-10 second introduction with maybe 2-3 lines of sentences. Environment can play the key role in that, especially if boss interacts with it in a cutscene...
Almost every boss in Soulsborne works in perfect symbiosis with environment either to enhances introduction of the boss, to set up the mood or as game mechanics.
...I know, Steven said no cutscenes, this is not a story sandbox mmo, but 5-10 sec introduction for some bosses would do wonders for your game.
This also means you're familiar with the zone and to there for things other than the boss kill, which makes it seem more like a normal place and not just a loot zone. Also means you might get normal mob respawns mid boss kill etc that you have to deal with.
As someone else called out, the variability the lights in yogg introduced was cool. Making the flight and loot changed based on how many helpers you freed made the content more accessible for casuals and provided bragging rights for people that did 0 lights.
Managing the ground effects of the fire in the gnome robot guy in ulduar or the puddles in the lich king fight also makes for interesting mechanics that depend on the environment.
In a later EQ expansion there was also a flight set in a Bell Tower where you could ring the bell to force a change in the boss I think it stunned him or something, but you had to know to pull him over to it, and when to use it. This kind of interactivity between the environment and the flight strategy was fun.
-Every boss is enhanced by its environment.
-Every boss leaves some sort of visual mark when it attacks.
-Every boss fits in environment it was placed.
My largest experience in boss arenas and boss fights comes less from videogames and more from my time spent GMing Pathfinder and 5e though I have played a bit of late era WoW Mythic Raids & other games. This post is obviously not comprehensive in it's scope but it's a small chunk of the design to be considered for boss arenas.
I would highlight the following goals as the paired pillars of boss design/gameplay in which all of the choices need to hinge on:
1) Vibes/Aesthetics
Vibes covers the intangible coalescence of themes, plot, visuals, and ideas merging into a cohesive emotional experience for the player during the fight. This creates memorable boss fights that people will rave about to their friends. Consider this the soft fluffy side of a boss.
2) Challenge
Challenge covers the idea of the boss as a 'final exam' on the mechanics explored in the dungeon and contributes to the vibes as a way to create a sense of achievement or reward for the players. This is the crunchy mechanical side to a boss.
With these pillars in mind we can approach the experience of the boss from start to finish in a mechanical step by step approach that allows for the creation process to be streamlined and polished. The following points have been adjusted to match with the prompt for today of "Environment" but can be expanded to include all aspects of the experience.
A) Progression of themes
The gradual transition to the boss is a vital part of defining the 'domain' that the boss inhabits. Introducing both the visual language of the dungeon/boss area and the mechanical ideas that players will have to contend with for a more 'fair' and cohesive feeling has to start here.
Having a break from the outside of a dungeon to the inside of the dungeon to the bosses room with a gradual scale of intensity is ideal as it establishes a visual language for the dungeon. In these cases we can look towards something like world of Warcraft's (WoW) dungeon Blackrock depths as a positive example. By fusing the gradiant colors of the rocks, the manufactured look of the walls, the heat's visual effects and the simple lighting blackrocks environment provides a scale of 'how far along' the player is while also visually indicating safe zones with their muted and less intense looks. On the opposite side of the spectrum as a 'bad example' I recently played Tales of Arise and many of the dungeons lack any sense of 'progress' meaning that even with varied dungeon designs the exploration of them felt bland and left the boss area as just another part of the place. The only sign that a boss was coming was that you had a save point. Circling back to the design pillars we can consider both the mechanical safety/danger portion and the vibes based emotional charge downstream of this 'introduction' of themes.
To theory craft a dungeon that would be linked to this lets start with an element, color, texture, and emotion. Ice, Purple, Crystalline, and Awe came up on the tables I have for this. When translated to a dungeon we have a gradually freezing pathway to a domain of Ice, the walls and paths freezing and water stopping. The transition from a normal forest into a glacial tower where an aurora grows in visibility reflected down from the outside. The mixed roughness of a forest translating to the perfectly smooth walls and prismatic pillars. And all of these come together to invoke Awe at the creator of this domain. What immense power. What perfect control. And to add variety the small pockets of warm yellow fires where the imperfections of humanity have etched out a place for themselves. Irreverent bastions of life that serve as a safe haven in the sea of Icey power.
On the mechanical side, the path leading up to the boss arena is responsible for introducing the themes of the fight. Again we can look to the WoW:Blackrock vs Arise comparison but this time the winner is reversed. Blackrocks variety of bosses all come with their own mechanics, most of which fail to connect to the dungeon around them. Even when they do, see the tavern keepers or the arena fight, the connections are tenuous and don't echo the design of the rest of the dungeon. This divide means that in order to understand the boss a player has to look up a guide or try to find out what the right approach is by trial and error at the final step rather than learning along the way through the dungeon what tools they have and how they interact with the core mechanics. In addition the bosses could be taken from the area and placed into another without anything more than a new coat of paint. Arise comes out on top as a shining example for this with their team based interrupt mechanics; each new member of the party has something to bring to the table in combat and adds a layer of complexity, each new member's mechanics are explored in their dungeon. The example which comes to mind most would be the Mage's dungeon which focuses on using the wizards ability to counterspell enemies as a mechanic in encounters. It begins with mooks that can be countered to stun them out of basic attacks, moves up to the minibosses with attacks that can knock out team members if not countered. Optional encounters give tests which can be harder than the final boss but which are focused entirely on the counterspelling help to highlight and give a place for the team to practice. Then the boss acts as a final test; exploring all the mechanics in combination with previous mechanics and the potential for a teamwipe on the table.
Applying the mechanical approach to the theory crafted dungeon the rolls I have on my tables are positioning, pacing, and planning. Taking the previously discussed thoughts let's play with the idea of positioning by having auras of warm and cold for allies and foes. Bunching together allows the team to remain warm and being too close to the enemies will chill them applying debuffs. You can then apply colors for the buffs/auras that match your earlier notes. When the debuffs grow too much the teammates crystalize in ice and rime slowing down and becoming weaker. Pulling in pacing/planning we can introduce yellow flares picked up at the camps to allow for 'purges' that are off GCD and not tied to a class allowing for the players to plan ahead and feel rewarded for understanding the larger mechanics of the area. Pulling this back to the arena we can look at varied areas of debuff application, areas with chilling winds, freezing water, sloughing snow and the increase of these as the dungeon proceeds to the end.
Combat is limited, conflict is not. When approaching the boss arena one of the key ideas is to provide an alternative challenge to simply an HP bar that needs to be chopped down. Preempting the complaints about late wow basic combat needs to play a role to validate the players investment in to their rotations/gear yet it's varied challenges that separate an outstanding encounter from the derisive fast food slop of tank and spank.
The most famous exploration of this which is tied to the arena in my opinion is the end dragon fight from Minecraft which starts with the rush to destroy 'crystals that heal the boss' requiring building, exploration, movement, and other skills while being entirely contained in the environment. While I haven't played it, I've heard that runescape also has a number of these 'alternative goals' which need to be balanced while dealing with a boss. These also allow for failed states which are more complex than death; a failure to deliver a bomb doesn't need to end in the death of a character which means that more can be explored. A failure to protect an ally means more than just a party wipe if the players had to escort them there.
In addition this can be used to highlight individual characters and the skills they've developed. Runescape definitely plays with this in encounters that require the player to light fires with their firemaking skills to lower defenses. Tying in alternative goals to character investment and player skills in their niche areas creates a rewarding experience for players.
Taking these ideas back to the theorycrafting we've been progressing I've rolled the visual language of the dungeon/boss area Mining and Protection as alternative goals. To try and roll these ideas in to our crystalline chilled boss arena and the mechanics discussed so far we can complement the existing mechanics by adding collection of flares which act as a 'pause' on the chill effect when standing near them. The boss during the fight knocks down things from the arena to close them up making the arena more dangerous. Putting the alternative goal of Protection into practice the boss's health can be separated from victory: the end goal is not to destroy the boss it's to outlast the winter's chill until the sun rises. Damage dealt will weaken the boss and slow it down but there's a victory condition tied to the arena that's something beyond the HP bar. All of these come to complement the earlier mechanical ideas of positioning, planning, and pacing and the aesthetic ideas of ice, purple, awe, and crystal. The arena embodies all of these without even needing a boss as a character; that is just the icing on top.
IN SUMMARY
The Arena must be understood as the finale at the end of a journey both mechanically and aesthetically to challenge and engage the player.
The Arena must be utilized as a 'twist' on the goals of a boss fight to expand on the formula and to create memorable moments.
Thank you for your time.
...That's it. That's my only suggestion. All other suggestions I could give are worthless in comparison. Just make holes happen. 100% always fun and hilarious.
Sources:
- Arkk, Shattered Observatory (Challenge Mode), Guild Wars 2
- Cloud of Darkness (Savage), Eden's Promise: Umbra (Savage), FFXIV
- Cloud of Darkness (Chaotic), FFXIV
- Black Cat, AAC Light-heavyweight M1, FFXIV
- Honorable mention (for knocking people off the platform with a flying building, which is close enough, and even more funny): Her Inflorescence, The Tower at Paradigm's Breach, FFXIV
How can the environment and setting of a boss encounter enhance the challenge and immersion of the battle?
Ah, the thrill of the adventure—where the very ground beneath our feet shifts as the narrative unfolds, and every corner hides a new challenge to conquer! When it comes to the environment of a boss encounter, I believe the build-up is just as critical as the encounter itself. Picture this: a time long ago, within the hallowed halls of the private test servers for Dungeons & Dragons Online, where a band of brave adventurers (my friends and I) ventured forth into the unknown. No map, no hints—just a whisper from the devs, saying, “We have crafted a new dungeon. Go forth, explore, and may your courage guide you.”
We stepped into the darkened depths, unsure of what awaited us. As we trudged deeper, the world around us began to challenge us—not only physically, but mentally. Traps and obstacles tested our cunning, and the very design of the dungeon forced us to adapt and rely on more than just the familiar trio of Tank, Heals, and DPS. Instead, we needed specific classes, certain abilities, and above all—cooperation. This was no mere romp through a dungeon; this was a puzzle, a dance with fate itself.
And then, as we ventured forth, a sudden stillness fell. The air grew thick, a shiver of something ancient and powerful stirred within the very fabric of the world. It was the sound of wings. A dragon. Rising from the horizon, it filled the sky, and our collective breath caught in awe. Fear, excitement, and wonder filled our voices, as we shouted our reactions, feeding back our emotional journey to the devs. That moment, that sheer sense of awe, was a testament to how the environment—its pacing, its surprises—enriched the encounter. The setting was as much a character in the battle as the dragon itself.
However, while such experiences were wondrous, I find that in many encounters, something crucial is lost: the sense of the living world. As much as we adore the grandeur of static, well-rehearsed boss fights—where the mechanics are learned, perfected, and executed—there comes a point when this repetition turns into a predictable and almost mechanical dance. Move here, dodge there, heal now, and stop DPS here—it’s all part of the script, a choreography that eventually grows mundane.
What I long for is a world where the bosses themselves feel alive. Imagine facing that same dragon, the one whose every swipe and fiery breath we’ve learned to counter. Now, imagine if it didn’t follow the same predictable pattern. One moment, it breathes fire, yes—but then it tail-swipes unexpectedly, or casts a magical missile to target the healer, throwing us off balance. Suddenly, the battle becomes dynamic again. Instead of memorizing mechanics, we must think on our feet, adapt to an ever-shifting strategy, and face an adversary that feels as cunning and unpredictable as the heroes challenging it.
This shift from static mechanics to a more adaptive, evolving AI opens up a wealth of possibilities for deeper immersion and challenge. No longer will we be merely executing tasks. Now, we’ll be caught in the whirlwind of a battle where every move counts, every moment is uncertain, and the very world itself seems to respond to our actions.
To sum it up: the environment is not just a backdrop for the battle—it is a character in itself. It can turn the fight from a chore to a thrill, where the setting itself, with all its surprises and changes, enhances the sense of immersion. Let us not only fight the creature; let us fight the very world it inhabits.
I like when the enemies around and the weather situation change the battle, this is Macro-environment for me.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52939/lets-theoryraid-1-jormungand-vs-xenojiiva
Xeno'jiiva's arena in its 'normal' form also has some elevation changes that you can use until it destroys them, but it's subverted because the thing you normally use elevation for (mounting the monster) doesn't work on it.
I like when bosses can 'call adds' but it isn't just some base mechanic they have at a scripted time. Tumok shaking spiders out of trees would be in my wheelhouse then. Muh immersion.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55622/lets-theoryraid-2-cyclops-v2-no-depth-perception
I also like chaotic/war settings, especially when it temporarily 'takes over' a familiar location, causing the player to rethink the area and form new 'memories' and concepts.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55673/lets-theoryraid-3-putting-heads-together-hydra-illuyankas-ffxi-vs-tiamat-onigiri
Illuyankas can be part of Besieged and attack Al Zahbi, alongside many troops, and even though this is the equivalent of a Castle Siege defense so there are many players to deal with the many enemies, it still feels good.
In terms of actual environments, everything about Toublek is great, and it becomes greater when you fight the Tier 2 version Kertaki. FF11 would have added even more to this, making the 'weather' in the area change based on certain area-statuses like the fog, or having things like 'windy weather' affect the fight.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58812/lets-theoryraid-4-briareus-and-tourblek-reimagined
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60640/lets-theoryraid-5-tiamat-ffxi-vs-firebrand
FF11 Tiamat is mostly, again, just 'enemies around and weather situation'. Firebrand, when fully implemented, will be even more amazing for similar reasons. Steam to block vision, ground hazard lingering burning areas, locations where the breath would be blocked by terrain... I look forward to seeing Firebrand fights in all sorts of cool environs.
Other than that, as another poster mentioned, the 'ground falling out from under you' thing is always at least somewhat interesting (FF11 Diabolos fight, for me, but obv many others).
There are too many recent examples from Throne and Liberty to even go into. They seemingly try to keep these complex mechanics out of Field Bosses since those 'need' to be accessible to the least invested players, but I'd say that there are more battles with environmental components than without them, so it would really just be 'a list of TL Dungeon Boss and miniBoss mechanics, excluding Heliber/Karnix'.
My personal favorite is Carmine Rage Island because the layout is just so good, it really gives that 'I'm having an adventure in a goblin forest' feeling, MiniBoss #1 being a 6v6 is fun but not really environmental. MiniBoss 2 has an environmental 'mechanic' placed around a Goblin... Hellcaster (idk we just call this mob 'Hydrolox').
Hydrolox has various moments where you can imagine the Arena floods with magical energy from some huge Runestones that surround it, and each player gets one protective rune 'attunement' applied to them. To survive the blast that will come or at least not get massively chunked down health-wise, you have to 'notice which Runestone has the mark matching your resonance, and move to it'. But the Runestones themselves aren't all in your field of view and the mark doesn't last long. Similarly, a teamwork aspect comes up since if you miss yours, you can 'know not to go to a spot where you see a teammate'. Hydrolox also changes position and focus during this, I think, and being aware of all three things at the same time enhances the feeling of stress in the boss fight.
There are also multiple hints on the ground patterns of boss arenas, which I'm not personally a huge fan of (and my group has to constantly be reminded to take a look at the floor before engaging the boss to get a starter-guess of where to stand). I think it was also for 'accessibility', but probably for communication purposes, as it makes it easier for the Lead Adventurer to coordinate the.. "C-Ranks", for lack of a better term.
The inverse can be 'seen' in Monster Hunter games (well, moreso World), where the spot you fight a monster changes the planning and fight, sometimes massively, and environmental 'bonuses'/hazards abound. Since the monster moves around or can start in different areas on the map, it helps somewhat, as even 'special hunts' aren't really 'scripted' in the normal sense. Things like 'Kushala Daora going into locations it wouldn't normally go and creating new battle mechanics' like its Fire tornadoes.
MMOs are often forced to limit this type of content for the sake of not disrupting newer players, which I understand (but of course, as a 'veteran', find to be a little disappointing). There are many arenas and environments that can feel recontextualized by adding boss encounters in this way.
FF11 eventually implemented this using a system that didn't have the best immersive effect on me, the 'Voidwalker Notorious Monster'. This was done in the way it was mostly to prevent low level players from stumbling across potentially-aggressive forms of 'things they absolutely should not mess with' in a punishing game, but the ability to fight a devastating Raid Level black dragon in what has, for all your 'life' on that character, been either a Starter zone, or at worst, a war battlefield in one small section, makes an impression very different from fighting effectively the same thing in just a 'standard arena', though that Arena had good 'vibes' too.
Long live Anguis, Long live Yilbegan, down with Overlord Bakgodek.
EQ2 had huge contested areas/dungeons with increasing mob lvl the further you go down, the dungeon or area matched this as well.
We pretend its hard to create this, but it should not.
Im happy to apply to a part-time job content creator
DP has a trio of "endgame" raids, which really just are very small dungeons built around a single bossfight, but all with a special twist.
One of said raids was a Boss inside a volcano, and to even do the bossfight, you had to pass a jump-and-run parcours made out of moving platforms, with some being fake (as in you fall through them) AND on top of that lasers stunning you occasionally in a fixed time pattern. The whole bossfight would take about 3-5mins with a good group, but getting up there could take you an hour sometimes hahaha
The bossroom itself was made out of instantdeath Lava too, with just a few platforms you could stand on (and only 2 players at a time, otherwise they would sink), with the boss destroying some plattforms throughout the bossfight for a time too, which made the fight very fun and a coordinative challenge.
Another one of these raids had a "stack" mechanic on the boss, where the boss would gain a buff with ice stacks racking up to 100 (and a wipe mechanic at 100 stacks) and the players could throw an item on the boss to lower this number by 20. However the cooldown was pretty long, so you would need to perfectly coordinate in a group of 5 who is going to throw their item when, to not run into a too long cooldown and have the boss reach said stack threshhold. Was also one of the hardest bossfights in the game, not cause of the boss itself (he just had a few ice aoe attacks) but because of the high pace of the fight and the perfect coordination needed.
Even though I'm not sure these would work with AoCs current encounter design as in TERA the PvE was much more engaging, dynamic fast paced action combat, I still would like to share some of the mechanics as they really made some of the boss encounters challenging and special imo
- splitting the (raid)group
so there were some different dungeon and boss designs that required the raid group to split up to fight two or more bosses simultaneously. Sometimes the kill on them needed to be timed in order to proceed, but there were also more unique encounters.
One smaller raid boss (the raids/dungeons usually consisted of min 3 bosses increasing in difficulty until the last one) required the raid to pick one player to fight the boss solo while the other players needed to fight off additional monsters spawning in around and running towards the boss.
One raid required the raid to split in half fighting 2 different bosses which required different class setups for the smaller groups due to different mechanics.
Another one required a portion of the raid to stay behind and wait at a closed gate close to the boss while the others went around a path clearing adds and eventually starting to fight the boss, while the others had to play a mechanic on the other side of the gate that got more and more difficult over time and the party fighting the boss had to reach a certain point b4 the mechanic got too hard to play so the gate would open and the 2 parties could fight the rest of the boss fight together. This again required planning for the classes as the mechanic in front of the gate was more easy to do with certain classes
- avoiding AOEs through boss room props
I think this is a rather common mechanic, I still kind of like it though
For example having to stand in a certain spot that gets elevated just a second b4 the boss room gets flooded with lava
Or standing behind a pillar to dodge an AOE attack coming from a certain direction
What I especially liked was when these mechanics were made more difficult by the props not being endless but breaking after getting hit and thus limiting the times you could avoid the attacks.
One boss was for example shooting 2 types of laser beams, both could destroy crystals around the room but only one of them was supposed to hit the crystals, the other one had to be dodged with a well timed iframe without hitting the crystals, so positioning and reaction time was the key - to notice which laser was happening, positioning to either hit or not hit the crystal and then dodging or not dodging. If all crystals got destroyed b4 the boss got killed it was a wipe
- boss pathing, directing attacks into props
So a little similar to the one above this could mean very simply driving the boss with a charged attack to for example run against a rock but I want to give one fun example that I thought was sort of unique
There was a monkey boss that with secondary aggro targeted another player that wasn't the tank to throw a banana peel at them. That player would have to get away from the group and position the banana peel between a banana tree and the boss while also dodging the banana peel falling on them so it wouldn't disappear but stay on the ground. A few moments later the boss would run towards the banana tree and if everything was positioned right he would slip on the peel and get knocked down instead of eating bananas and buffing himself. If you would fail this mechanic more than once the boss would basically become way too strong to defeat because of the banana tree buff
- color/debuff/cleansing as a boss room mechanic
So there were several bosses having different kind of color/debuff mechanics that were part of the boss room rather than the boss itself
One had a crystal in the middle of the room that would shoot lasers from time to time. Those lasers had different colors and each player had a color debuff on them. You would have to get hit by a certain laser color while avoiding the others. Wrong color - one shot. Right color - new color debuff. If you didn't get a new debuff on and the old one ran out of time - one shot. Also the lasers were spinning. So you had to quickly react and see which color you had, which color the lasers had, iframe the wrong ones and get hit by the right one
Another one gave you a debuff that had to be cleansed by running through different colored circles on the boss room floor, the colors would appear for a short time showing you the path, only to then turn invisible. You had to run through them in time to cleanse it or the debuff would turn yourself into a time bomb killing not only you but other players standing too close as well
There are a lot of color/debuff/cleansing boss room mechanics in many different games actually, they're all kind of similar so I think this is enough examples given for that one
- entire room mechanics
By this I mean the entire room being a mechanic itself
For example, there were boss rooms that had symbols or colors around it at the walls, those were spinning and changing order, with the floor being a counterpart that the players would have to arrange to fit the rest to avoid triggering a wipe mech after a certain time or boss attack
Sometimes it was also just the room indicating important information about another mechanic that was coming up, so you would need to watch the surroundings changing to know where to go or how to react to certain boss mechanics
- memory games
I know this is either a love or hate for basically everyone
Boss room floor tiles turning into a memory game is a thing in quite a few games, and for me personally it's more or a love than a hate, especially if done well
- dps check/boss timer through boss room
So in Tera it was quite a common thing to either have a boss enrage timer which could result in a wipe if the group was lacking dps or to have the boss room shrink over time or actually both
So the boss room would for example slowly get taken over by fire/lava or the edges would break of similar to many games resulting in a smaller and smaller boss room until it was too small to fight in or get taken over completely
- boss room buffing the boss
So kind of similar to the banana thing I do enjoy mechanics where you need to prevent the boss room from buffing the boss or making your life harder, another fun example I would like to give was a clown boss
In his boss room there was one sides where after a certain time or HP percentage juggling balls like looking toys came rolling out of many slide exits on one wall of the boss room. The players would have to stand in a line each covering 1 or 2 slides to kill the balls that were rolling down. Those were not hard to kill, AOE's worked and even healers had enough damage to kill them but they were rolling quite fast and not just one per slide so you could definitely miss that one chance to hit them. If they managed to roll past you and reach the other side of the room, they would give the boss a stacking buff. With too many stacks on him the boss was basically not killable anymore, but the missed balls also spawned in additional monsters including exploding ones which made it even more hard if people messed up the mechanic
There's actually a lot more mechanics I could name, from more different games as well but I think this will do for now
I think its easiest to give examples and then answer the question for each one.
1. World of Warcraft - "The Nighthold"
This Raid was one of my favorite for its setting and keeping very close to a theme. All the visuals and feel of the raid was very immersive. You really felt you were in an ancient city. It was also a non-linear raid. Linear raids are bad by any means but it being a city like instance where you could roam around the streets to different encounters was special.
2. World of Warcraft - "Black Temple" - The "Reliquary of the Lost" boss encounter
This boss encounter is very very memorable to the WoW community, I would venture to say that most WoW players that have placed since The Burning Crusade would mention this boss as being very unique.
I feel that this kind of boss aesthetic is too "fantastical high fantasy" for AoC but it is a cool fight nonetheless.
Essentially you are fighting a 3 phase boss which is a floating rock with a face on each side of it. You beat the Essence of Suffering, it then rotates and becomes The Essence of Desire, then the Essence of Anger, with each face having abilities that make sense with the theme its portraying.
3. World of Warcraft - "Gruul's Lair" - Both Boss encounters "High King Maulgar" and "Gruul the Dragonkiller"
High King Maulgar - Remembered for having a Main boss "High King Maulgar" and 4 mini bosses with him. Each one of course having different mechanics to deal with. Specifically one of the mini bosses "Krosh Firehand" is the Mage of the group and takes a Mage to tank him. He essentially had a spell shield that a mage would use a skill called "Spellsteal" to take it for themselves and it would be the only way a character couldnt get 1 shot by the mini bosses fireball. Youd have a mage with a lot of fire resist and HP just tanking a boss lol.
Gruul the Dragonkiller - Had an ability called "Cave in", the boss or the ability themselves arnt like spectacular, especially considering how man bosses are in WoW now but for the time it was a good use of the theme and aesthetic of the boss encounter. You were in a cave...and when Gruul used "CAVE IN" he would shake the ground and if you looked up, rocks fell from the ceiling of the cave doing AOE damage to anyone in those little areas around the encounter. Simple but very believable.
4. World of Warcraft - "Serpentshrine Cavern" - "The Lurker Below" boss encounter
Since im trying to get variety on this list to help answer the question that was asked, this boss makes the list. He is a boss that has to be summoned within the Raid instance. He only spawns once a member of the Raid with high enough fishing skill summons him, by casting in said area over and over until he appears and the encounter starts. Really cool idea, again using the theme and environment to design something unique.
Sorry all of them were from WoW, but it just has a lot of diversity and I played it for so long.
Hope this post helps.
One note I will make is this:
If you introduce tricky mechanics and clever gimmicks, make its significance very clear.
I don't mind reading 5 wiki articles and a tutorial before I can successfully and efficiently clear the dungeon. I don't mind spending 30 minutes preparing every new party member I run the dungeon with for the mechanics and how we handle them in our group. But what I don't want to have to do is convince players that they need to pay attention to the instructions. They should know - because the game should give them very clear feedback.
Make the mechanics and their solutions complicated, so people have to think about what they have to do. But make the feedback when you're doing something wrong instantly obvious. Doesn't always have to be massive damage. Sometimes CC will be enough (some debuffs can take too long to detect sometimes though.) Sometimes it can be a boss just not dying.
Just try not to make it something that creeps up on you for 30 minutes and until you fail, and also try not to use Navi-style NPC speech bubbles; they're kinda cringe. At least avoid both of those in the majority of gimmicky encounters; if they're the only option for one particularly sneaky mechanic, that's fine.
For some bosses I like to be able to just focus on a more simple approach, such as the boss itself/their mechanics for a more straightforward experience. Its fine if these are "less rewarding" due to the simplicity but it is nice to have the option to go back and fight these types of bosses for fun, if I enjoyed that more "focused" experience.
For more challenging (and higher reward) boss encounters I like when the environment is just as much a part of the experience as the boss mechanics. I want a more wholistic systems-heavy and emergent type of challenge with a variety of skill-check types throughout the encounter/environment and many different viable strategies/playstyles, which I will expand on.
Emergence
1. Traversal
A- Chases
Boss chases are really fun, where you have to chase them around at high speeds, it makes it feel like you are racing and fighting at the same time kind of like the old Road Rash and Twisted Metal games, or the Monster Hunter games.
Remember Road Rash? lol
Crosscode also generally just allowed for jumping/parkour and tactical usage of the terrain to be a common part of fighting since the jump puzzles were baked into the whole environment. This created a uniquely fun experience where your ability to solve the jump puzzles and learn the layouts directly impacted your ability to exhibit mastery over the terrain and fully leverage your mobility during combat. If you want to get to a position for line of sight benefits or high ground, you need to remember how to get there and then figure out the best way to get there while you are fighting, otherwise you will miss out on the benefits. If you mess up with your map knowledge, you might end up in a claustrophobic area where its difficult to leverage your mobility skills, as opposed to knowing where you want to reposition to, then unleashing your mobility to get there asap. This adds a layer of planning and adaption of your movement during a fight, as well as adding extra strategic/tactical considerations through the environmental design.
Here is how the terrain and level design accomodated this:
I think this just comes down to making optimization and adaptation of your movement around the environment, and your strategic/tactical usage of the environment, core aspects of the encounter design for certain bosses.
I think the optimization and adaptation is even more fun when the movement system itself is fun to interact with and has a fluid feel. A lot of games have focused on making fun movement systems utilizing the environment. Rather than listing them all, this video does a good job providing tons of examples.
2. Environmental Utility (tools/hazards/traps/etc.)
- This is what makes Hitman feel like a sandbox, as their are many different things to account for, like
- which tool/trap in the environment would be best and when?
- what is the optimal order I should use them throughout the encounter to kill different adds/mini-bosses as quick as possible?
- what route should you take to get to a tool you need?
- how can I bait the enemy to get to where I need them and at the right time?
- which positions can be helpful and when?
- how can you shave off time from this strategy?
- what enemies/hazards you need to be careful of with this strategy, how risky is it and how easy is it to mess up, etc.?
- how adaptable is this strategy as different factors change during an encounter?
- etc.
A big part of this is that the game also grades your efficiency, creativity, and times how fast you get the job done, which can be pretty fun metrics to use for certain boss encounters and to drive PvE player competition and optimization efforts.
Here is an example of what I mean:
I don't expect this level of mechanical granularity obviously, but the idea of having certain boss encounters with a similar philosophy where there are more layers in the environmental interactions and you have to think of these types of things, which can be very fun for player competition.
3. Stealth
4. Map design
A- verticality
I think this is an interesting mechanic that be very versatile in its impact depending on the implementation, as well as being an environmental factor that doesn't necessarily have to exist as a part of the terrain from the beginning, but can also dynamically shake up the battlefield in interesting ways as a fight progresses.
It would be super fun to see some physics that allow you to take advantage of the destruction mechanics (like damaging bosses with debris), as well as physics that provide utility if you can leverage different tools and objects to interact with the environment and boss in a variety of ways.
As long as you fit it into the context of your combat and encounter design, physics can be balanced while adding a ton of reactivity, dynamicsm, utility, tactics, creativity, and fun to the environmental interactions and boss experiences.
Here is an example of what I mean (mainly at 6:57-8:31), but there is also some useful context before that point in the video. There are also some cool concepts in some other videos on this channel involving combat, movement, environmental utility skills, underwater gameplay, how enemy A.I. interacts with different environments, amongst other things.
This one talks about designing enemy pathing to utilize more dynamic movement animations for smarter, more adaptive, and more immersive enemy pathing around the environments (including large bosses), which I thought sounded pretty innovative.
5. Bonus objectives and reactivity
This could be things like:
- tricking the boss into hitting the wall the reveal a secret area
- training a mob into the boss room to trigger some kind of interesting event or interaction in the environmnent
- having some kind of mysterious mechanism that can be interacted with in some way, where it might be necessary to know the boss lore or predict the story arc in order to figure out a creative solution to trigger/interact with that mechanism. Maybe this mechanism acts as a predicate for the story, maybe it helps you with the fight, etc.
Basically utilizing the emergence and knowledge of various aspects of the game (mechanics/story/lore/etc.) to create unique interactions that can be solved in a puzzle-like way.
I also like when there is reactivity to these kinds of discoveries/choices, like the faction that boss is a part of recognizing that you found that hidden stash in the boss room, or that they remember how you interacted with the boss/environment in the specific way that you did, like in this game:
6. Potential puzzles in the environment during the encounter
Crosscode did this where it included puzzles you have to figure out on the fly (based on the mechanics you have learned up to that point) during the boss fight itself. This could also be a cool bonus objective if you wanted to sacrifice some group members to work on solving a puzzle in the boss room while the others try to distract the boss.
Here is an example at 11:50, 13:45, and 15:00
7. Environmental Artisan challenges
- tough boss battles could have unique rewards littered throughout the environment for players to scavenge while trying to survive the boss fight. (like gatherables, enchanted crafting stations, etc.)
Basically having rewards for a variety of playstyles baked into the environment. Bonus points if there are unique mechanics involved through either the environment or the boss fight itself that are needed to claim these rewards (like a cook using firebrands fire-breath to cook a legendary meal during a fight)
8. Environmental storytelling
This is important to get right, and in addition to this it is also important to remember that its better to tell the story through the gameplay and environment whenever possible, instead of relying too much on cutscenes. Here are a couple examples of an epic sequence that feels much more immersive and impactful because it is delivered through the gameplay and environment rather than something like watching this as a boss intro cutscene.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/D8PTexW8fIE
Overall the environment should add emergence and depth to the boss fight rather than detract from the fight by creating arbitrary limitations and incentivizing dull and repetitive strategies/tactics. It should feel more "sandbox" in the variety of experiences you can have during a boss fight, while still ensuring that each playstyle and experience is curated enough to be fun, interesting, engaging, etc. to make each choice worth choosing whenever interacting with a given component/mechanic of the envirnoment/boss.
I would like to see a spectrum of encounter/environmental designs that include a variety of overlapping system combinations, emergent interconnectivity, and complexity. I think this would be a good representation of the risk vs reward aspects as well as the idea of teaching players through the more simplistic straitforward designs then ramping up the complexity and challenge throughout the progression experience.
1. The importance of scale in boss encounters.
2. Making boss fights more immersive by giving players personal responsibility for the fight's success.
3. Shifting from linear boss mechanics to dynamic, unpredictable mechanics.
4. The impact of deadly mechanics versus drawn-out health pools.
5. Shifting the balance away from Zerg guilds and towards smaller, more coordinated groups.
6. The importance of the boss interacting with the environment and players using the environment to their advantage.
7. Making boss fights feel more like the boss is alive in the world, rather than a static encounter.
How can the environment and setting of a boss encounter enhance the challenge and immersion of the battle?
I don’t necessarily expect this from Ashes, but just speaking generally about what I find interesting in boss encounters... one of the biggest things for me is scale. Bosses in MMOs rarely feel as challenging or as impactful as I’d like them to. Most of the time, fights boil down to the same general formula: a bunch of people spamming their rotations, dodging circles on the ground, and slowly whittling away at a massive health pool. It works, but it doesn’t always feel epic.
If I think about the most memorable boss fights I’ve played, they come from games like Dark Souls. Obviously, MMOs can’t directly replicate that experience. Part of what makes Dark Souls bosses so intense is that you’re fighting them alone, which forces a sense of personal responsibility and tension that’s hard to replicate in a large-scale MMO fight. But I do think there’s something to be learned from that: bosses in MMOs could be way more immersive if players felt more individually responsible for the fight's success.
Right now, when you’re in a massive boss fight with a ton of players, it often feels like your presence barely matters. DPS meters were at least one way to make people feel engaged, giving players a way to compete for performance, but outside of that, the actual mechanics often make players feel replaceable. So how do you make a boss fight feel more immersive?
One way is to lean into deadly mechanics over drawn-out health bars. A lot of MMO bosses feel tanky just for the sake of it, dragging out fights rather than making them actually dangerous. I’d rather see bosses that can wipe a group quickly if players fail mechanics, but also don’t take forever to kill if the group executes everything correctly. This creates a much higher skill ceiling and, more importantly, shifts the balance away from Zerg guilds that just brute force content by throwing bodies at it.
Right now, bosses like Firebrand or Tumag are really only killable by massive Zerg guilds, but what if those bosses had mechanics that made coordination more important than numbers? Imagine a fireball that instantly kills a player, then bounces to the next person nearby, forcing everyone to be precise in their movement and positioning. In a system like that, a smaller, well-coordinated guild could have an actual shot at taking down these bosses, rather than just being overrun by sheer numbers.
To me, that's what makes boss fights immersive: a sense of personal responsibility, mechanics that reward skill over numbers, and an environment that forces actual coordination rather than just spamming rotations in a DPS race.
Another aspect of boss fights that I think is really immersive is when the boss interacts with the world around them. I think stage design typically plays a big role in boss encounters. Usually, fights feel very linear, like get the boss to point X, and once you reach that point, the boss transforms or changes mechanics. What would be more interesting, in my opinion, is if the boss mechanics were more dynamic rather than rigid. This would demand more coordination and collaboration, encouraging players to be more aware and adapt during the fight. What I mean by this is that while players definitely need to train on boss mechanics, learning the mechanics should not be so straightforward. Boss mechanics / stages don’t need to be linear they can be dynamic, and this dynamic approach would make the encounter feel far more immersive and challenging than the typical, predictable rotation of actions.
I also love when bosses interact with the environment, using environmental factors to gain an advantage, or even when players can use the environment to their benefit. For example, setting a forest on fire to trap a boss in a specific area. It creates a sense that the boss is alive in the world and responds to its surroundings, rather than just being an animated puppet.
Owner of Wizzlewig’s Wonders
Master of the Arcane Arts | Keeper of Arcane Relics
"Welcome to Wizzlewig’s Wonders, where whimsical wonders waltz with wizards!"
-no jumping puzzles!
-no places where you can just fall off a cliff and die without being able to come back during the encounter
-the ability for higher level characters to solo all low level content; meaning no restrictions that require multiple people to do the encounter, such as multiple levers, pressure plates, or soak mechanics that mean a one-hit kill if something isn't done.
for those that chase cosmetics, mounts, or other such drops - not being able to solo low-level content is very frustrating.
thanks for reading!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
Example: While fighting a fire elemental that is summoned a volcano eruption. There's lava around the field of battle so the elemental pushes players backward trying to knock them into the lava. Conversely, the team fighting the elemental kite it to the coast of the island which cleanses the fire dot the elemental applies. So, when the elemental knocks them back into the sea it serves as a dispel.
Having the environment be an active participant in the encounter both positive and negative impact on both sides makes it feel both more immersive and less an arbitrary mechanic design.
Please note, while this example deals with a mechanic, simple things like choke points to manipulate add pathing and corners or balconies to LOS mechanics are great too. It doesn't have to be intimately tied to how a mechanic functions itself. It is a nice touch though.
Lastly, I (more than anything) want the bosses to behave in a way consistent with how a type of monster would with their environment.
Example: So a dragon tends to have flight, a breath weapon, tail whip, etc. How does this kit cause them to leverage their environment? If the dragon is in an open area with a ledge maybe the dragon will snatch someone in a claw and fly over the ledge and drop them. What if the fight takes place in a cave? Maybe the dragon can breath fire on the stalactites to cause them to fall on the players, and the players can target them in return over the dragon as well.
Will be great if the boss gets jacked up if players bring too many people for the fight. The room could enter in a survival mode every 20s where the room brings one-shotting mechanics until there's a reasonable amount of people in the room and then stop one-shotting and the room goes back to normal mode. Would be cool knowing that every 20s someone there's a big chance someone will die if you overcrowd it.
Have a lot of danger, make people fear being in there, if you’re not giving your players PTSD, then you’re doing it wrong.
When there's danger there's meaning.