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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Spaghetti westerns got mocked for being able to fire 200 bullets and never reload. It was bad then and got mocked to the point where it is still referenced today as bad design. I understand people think it's tedious, takes up inventory space, wastes time, pointless, dated, etc. Personally I think that's a cop out of lazy people that want to be handed things instead of work for it. "Give me the class that uses a bow but make it so I don't need arrows", that's like saying you want a mage but the kind that doesn't have to rely on mana....
That said I know I'm in the vast minority (probably because I'm not a millennial) and crafting arrows isn't going to happen, so I'm here to find a feasible, realistic solution to both sides.
All these ideas are based around crafting full quivers, not individual arrows.
1) The number of quivers you can carry at once is determined by a ranger specific quest line. Do bad you get a second quiver slot (have 1 by default). Do excellent you get 4 (maybe 8?) quiver slots. Each quiver can hold 500 arrows and has their own slot not in regular bag inventory. If you decide to go out into the wild and 2k (4k) arrows isn't enough then you can hold more quivers in your regular inventory. I do understand though this is nothing more than a bulk version of crafted arrows that you had to craft and carry around in other games but it's a fair compromise. Obviously all number are subject to personal preferences.
2) Don't care what lore you come up with but the quiver could have magical properties that allow for a large amount of arrows to be carried in a small space (Harry Potter reference) before having to be replaced/refilled/reinvigorated somehow. With quivers holding around 2k arrows each and having its own slot, not in inventory, it would solve a lot of issues such as crafting speed - you craft one quiver, takes 10 seconds, get 2k arrows. Carry up to 8k arrows total based on idea 1.
3) Have a quiver that magically has unlimited base arrows but also carries a small number of actual arrows that are more powerful, have cc abilities, certain spell abilities, or arrows that are linked to the ranger so that when you fire it and it hits something you can gain sight from its vantage point for a limited time. Net arrows to pin things down, etc.
I know this would take a lot of reworking and wont happen, just throwing out ideas to spark convo. I also know that giving this example is partially what a lot of you want but, from a bowman point of view arrows need to matter, have a practical source, and barring that, a solid purpose. Otherwise you're just a mage with a curved stick, an odd attack animation and no mana bar.
4) Based on your sub spec, if it is a class that uses mana then the quiver, or yourself, uses mana arrows. No need to craft arrows ever again. If it's a non-mana class see idea 1.
5) An engineering/mechanical/magical quiver. You gather materials as you go and deposit them into the quiver and it makes arrows. Small quantities of basic, easily found gatherables make large quantities of arrows. This set up would allow you to stay in the field indefinitely.
I don't have a problem with rangers needing to craft arrows, it adds to the immersion and identity of the class but there's also resource management issue that needs to be addressed. If rangers don't need to use arrows then why should mages have to rely on a mana pool? A lot of people right now will scoff at this and try to justify in their minds the differences but when you look at it from a practical, neutral standpoint, it's a valid question.
If anyone has anything to add please do. The more dialogue we have the better the game can be even if it's in a direction we never expected.
1) We’ll, let’s set your spaghetti western straw man aside and focus on a relevant example in the genre. WoW started with arrows and realized after years of feedback it’s tedious and serves no gameplay value, so they removed them.
2) You realize that the active abilities for rangers are governed by a mana bar, right? It has nothing to do with quantity of arrows. So adding arrows would be like adding spell reagents for mages in addition to their mana pool.
3) I like the idea of baking a limited special arrow quantity into a quiver. It could be something as easy as repairing the quiver to replenish its count.
4) adding arrows doesn’t somehow establish players that ‘work for it’ there’s literally no gameplay value, except adding a trivial resource no one cares about with only downsides.
1) The first point is an opinion either way, I get that. I played WoW for much longer than I'd care to admit and loved wpvp. I made tons of ammo thought it was a mismanaged move, among other things, when they took it out.
2) I didn't know that. I didn't see anything happen to the rangers bottom bar in the live feed. Didn't hear anything said about it either. I will watch it a second time to see if I missed something.
3) I do think there is potential there for something cool. Would be interesting if IS would entertain that.
4) This one we disagree. If you want better gear, weapons, recipes, skills etc. you have to work for it in MMOs. Why should the arrows you shoot be different? Arrows and the bow work as one. It's a weapon system. As far as downsides, in wpvp there were a lot of people that got to experience the upsides of better ammo. Taking time to craft better ammo when others wont leads to higher dps than theirs. It's only a downside for people that don't want it, or to be bothered by it. For those that do want it and are willing to work for it, it becomes another point of an advantage.
I'm under no illusion about changing Stevens mind but at the same time, when immersion is a phrase that is thrown around everywhere and great lengths are taken in other areas to help build immersion if feels like a cop out to not follow through. Plus I gave a few examples of how to make the ammo crafting far less inconvenient and burdensome.
Same. Mained a Hunter for 16 years. It was a lovely day when I had an extra set of bag spaces and didn’t run out of arrows a few hours into a raid.
You won’t see it in the demo, because the Ranger archetype isn’t complete. They were showing off basic ranged attacks and threw some of the active Ranger abilities in. The class isn’t done by a long shot.
Totally agree here. I imagine something between Wolcen (I recommend if you haven’t tried and like ARPGs) and Assassin’s Creed.
It’s fine that we disagree. Though, it’s really your characterization of those that disagree with including ammo as ‘lazy’ and ‘not working for it’ that caught my eye.
Frankly, it’s just an awkward judgement to toss out there. Players are going to be earning their gear in Ashes. The best gear is going to be crafted and mats are going to be highly contested in the open world. So it’s not like eliminating arrows from a quiver is suddenly equivalent to handing out welfare epics. Idk, man - carrying ammunition seems like an odd hill to die on in a game that brings so much to the table.
But it’s your call - c’est la vie.
By the time arrows, and reagents in general were removed it was removed because the way the game was played had shifted, a lot.
There was now a green button you kept pressing, possibly whilst questing that teleported you to dungeons, and then neatly back to where you were afterwards so you could continue. It got streamlined, and as little time "wasted" as possible.
Back when ammunition (and reagents) were a thing, you had to not only travel to a dungeon (which you'll do in Ashes I believe?) but also prepare, you wanted to make sure you have time to play, first and foremost. Then you made sure you were repaired and are stocked up on the items you'll need. Warlocks had to farm soul shards, rogues had to prepare poisons, using a myriad of ingredients. You ideally wanted to meet up and head out together. The preparation was part of the fantasy.
Now, I don't think you need ammunition, reagents etc to have the things mentioned here. But I do think they add to the experience. There is something innately magical about going to the city to prepare for a big adventure (to me at least) and things that take away from that I really don't like.
People want an immersive world not a 'game'.
If you think otherwise you're no different from Blizzard (which crashed the ship LOL)
However it is very important that ammo weighs 0 in your local inventory, else ranger types are at a massive disadvantage to others. This is how New World now do it (after many complaints) and it works well.
However it is also important that there is not too much difference. A high tier arrow should not be able to do 4x times the damage of a low tier arrow. The multipliers should be more like 1x - 1.30x. Making low tier arrows perfectly viable.
A far more interesting addition to this would be to add damage type modifiers. I.e. Fire arrows, ice arrows, steel arrows, lightning arrows, poison arrow, etc.. etc.. This would allow for many different types of builds that perhaps are better suited to different battle situations.
The one issue I have with all of your idea? It seems to hinder only one class.
Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack? Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks? Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks? Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?
If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function.
And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?
That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back.
If you have not played those 2 games, be thankful, There are reasons they are failures & ammo is just 1 of them.
Final Fantasy XIV a failure? Lol. We found the WoW Andy (who btw also had ammo up to a certain expansion)
Anyway ammo on paper sounds nice but once you reach a certain level/amount of money it basically just becomes an extra money sink/bag space that adds mild flavor in exchange for a mild inconvenience. A "spell stance" ability to change ammo types or tying it to a piece of equipment like a quiver would be a better way to go about it in my opinion.
I would put that modifier on edged weapons, yes. For a world with super-strength and super-toughness I don't think flimsy swords are a great choice though.. . . especially with the abundance of metal armor.
Preparing mana crystals and reagents would be quite neat actually. . .
Anything can be instrumental but besides that, this may be too obnoxious, maybe not. It's a light hearted character so some light hearted gameplay may be more appealing. . . Then again carrying 100 strings is very little weight and space, and it lends itself to a certain kind of gameplay where getting hit disrupts the BUFFS which is VERY GOOD.
I LIKE IT. Great suggestion.
I have had this idea already. Go to 'holy places', pilgrimage, et cetera to level up and perhaps retain power.. . . sounds good. Mana is more an extension of the Mind and exertion I think, so that is its own thing in my opinion. Its own thing, like Mages are their own thing.
I imagine XP for Clerics can be tied to questing and their influence on the world moreso than other classes.
Arrows can be retrieved, sharpening can use any rock, Mages have loads of options. . . though they're taking the "Elementalist" angle rather than "Wizard". . . . whatever.
Clerics praying is pretty normal and their 'constraints' can be more or less infrequent . . .
Bards are a bit of a knot but they can have a lot of out-of-combat utilities and perhaps use random items as instruments. . . maybe have 20 instruments? 100? Something ridiculous. . . I imagined Bards can sing to trees and they fall and separate into the shape that is asked of them, so instruments could be a dime a dozen. . . stole that from the Bean book series that's parallel to Ender's Game series.
So how about it?
As said by cat quiver... 1.0 and ARR have lot of differences in gameplay design... and "a realm reborn" is not a random name... And... he spoke about "there were ammunitions" ... or there is no ammunition from FFXIV : ARR :-°
For me, a game, to be fun, have to first feel good while we controll. Amunation can be a good thing, or a chore ... a burden.
collecting reagint/arrow just "to do it" was never fun, and most tabletop RPG reduced the spell reagent a lot, and the ammunitions while still there, are just a standart formality just to say "hey, it is kind of realist right?" (With lot of GM i know don't even care about it, including arrows in the normal spending of characters with food, and such things)
I will play summoner, but i really wish for ranger enjoyments they won't have to deal with it... (And i know some people enjoying a lot this kind of class... that dislike to have to deal with arrow if it is just a simple consumable to deal with)
"Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack?"
No. Ever heard of a club? The fighter is holding his weapon, he's not expending material to do damage. It's not a limited supply item. You can still swing swing it if it's dull. How many arrows can you shoot if none are in your quiver. Did you play WoW? Do you remember the sharpening stones? If you were willing to take the time to sharpen your weapon you could do more damage than someone that didn't want to bother with it, which is fair. The comparison you are trying to make isn't balanced, it's apples to oranges.
"Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks?"
No. The concept of mana is that it is like a well spring inside of you that replenishes on its own. Much like energy, or a life force, it is part of you. If you swing an axe do you have a limited number of swings? Yes. You will eventually become exhausted and unable to swing it again but, if you wait a bit and recoup your energy you can swing it again. You ever seen a quiver fill up by itself? Again, apples to oranges.
"Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks?"
No. He should have had extras with him. You play an instrument? I do. A guitar, and anyone that plays an instrument knows very early on you always carry back up parts. It's just logical and common sense. On the other hand I never really considered the bards instrument strings breaking as a mechanic since that is his weapon. All weapons take durability damage anyways and need frequent repairs. The lutes counterpart is the bow, not the arrows so to that effect it would be the bowstring breaking. In that same line of thinking a bards weapon doesn't fire physical projectiles at the enemy. Again, apples to oranges.
"Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?"
So for the MP, look at the mage. It's the exact same thing. Religion is a belief, a faith, you have in you. It's not something you buy, craft or carry.
"If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function."
I do think you're right that these types of mechanics should apply to all classes and they pretty much do, except for the ranger. The ranger is getting a pass in AoC. All the other classes have their types of weapons function as they should. Yet the bow needs no arrows? Tell me, what extra items do the other classes need to be able to carry out their roles?
And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?
1) If your hunter/ranger runs out of arrows/bullets every few pulls then you need to kick that guy because he's trolling you at that point.
2) What you are asking is irrelevant because the lines have been drawn and they do apply this to all classes. If your mana user runs out of mana in the middle of a fight and you don't have any flasks left do you just go *poof* and suddenly have a full mana pool? That mana allows a caster to do his attack, just like the arrow allows the ranger to do his.
3) No one is running back every "three or four pulls of mobs" because that was never a problem.
"That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back."
1) Not fun? According to who?
2) Cool RP-wise? According to who?
3) Tedious gameplay? According to who?
4) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource"
WTF?! Have you EVER played a hunter all? If you have then you know what you are saying is disingenuous and intentionally misleading or you're being deliberately obtuse. Making that statement leads me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about. That exact same statement could be said for a mage, priest, warlock or any other caster class that runs out of mana and doesn't have any mana pots and gets jumped again. Or a physical damage dealer that has his weapon break because he didn't want to waste time repairing it. It all comes down to someone not preparing. Not a game design issue, a bad player issue.
Not once in the decade + that I played wow did I ever run out of ammunition. If a ranger class does and dies, then he earned it. Just like any other class.
Bowman class VS all others -
The difference with the ranger is that it's a physical damage class that does damage outside of melee range. In order to do that damage it requires expending materials. The bow is the weapon as the sword is the weapon. Does the sword hit objects 30 yards away? No and neither does the bow. It's the arrow that hits the object. For the sword to do that you would have to throw it. Should you have to pick up the sword to start doing damage again? Yes obviously. That's where the arrow comes in and why it fits outside the rules of melee users. Mana users go in the opposite direction as they can do damage with no physical object, rangers can't and that's why it doesn't make sense to have a ranger with no arrows.
I gave several examples on how it would be far less "tedious", cut down on time, costs and avoid using any bag space. Maybe try addressing those or providing something better.
A lot of people like me want ammo in the game and a lot don't. I made my post to ask for ideas to find a good middle ground but it looks more like some of the people that don't want it won't even bother to attempt to find a good solution. This wasn't a post for a debate on if it should be in the game or not, it was to spark creative conversation.
UO system - Spells requires components. Stock up.
That was just an Ultima thing. Checking your backpack for a sprite icon of 60 mandrake among all the other reagents. So. much. fun. 🙄
I like equipping before a long exploration run, but there’s a point where immersion with my Ranger ends and immersion with an obsessive-compulsive librarian begins. IMO, I think Steven is drawing the line on the appropriate side of immersive Ranger experience.
My suggestion is that every weapon type should have an "enhancement". For ranged weapons like crossbows and bows that can be unique ammunition, like explosive or poisonous arrows. For swords or maces that can be a weapon coating like a poison or flaming oil that gives your weapon an extra effect for a certain number of hits. For a magical weapon like a wand or orb that can be a tuning crystal that hypercharges it in a specific way for the next X number of attacks.
But all of these would be enhancements. No tracking of baseline ammunition; a weapon always works at a minimum degree of competence that you can buff up using these effects. I think that'd achieve a happy medium of providing equipment management for those who like ammunition structures without requiring them for you to be useful at all; if you run out, you're still able to function, even if it's at a reduced capacity.
I think add the visual quiver for bow users, but honestly what's the point of ammunition. I am happy for consumable/on cool-down (next attack, next x attacks do this bonus effect) - but that really is more of an augment if anything.
Adding faff for the sake of faff I think we are past that. The game is going to be plenty complex with all its systems and ammo is one thing we can live without I think.
New World still has ammo mate... not sure what your point is?
I think that equipping a bow should create new arrow slots (not quiver slots) and you can equip in there different types of arrows that you can recraft (just an immersive rename for repair) the arrows you shot in similar gameplay time like warriors need to repair their weapons/shields
recrafting arrows could use materials, but in lesser extent than crafting an entirely new arrow
― Plato
If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
This is the appropriate time to say it, this is a mmorpg not a FPS or Survival game.
Baseline Damage. (Example 100 damage + Dex Bonus)
Now to use Fire, Poison, Explosion Arrow - YOU NEED TO BUY THOSE
Skills have 2 triggers - Basic and w/ added bonus for special arrows.
HOW IT WOULD LOOK
Dex = 100
Skill Name: Rain of Arrows
range 60m
PROMPT 1:
Fire a hail of arrows that deals baseline damage (100+Dex) times (bonus modifier let's say 10) in a small radius of 5m
PROMPT2 :
Bonus Ammo: If Explosive Arrows are used
A Thunderous rain of arrows is shot
consumes: 1-5 explosive arrow
Bonus Damage - Deals X amount of dmg, Radius size increase.
Charge - Charge up to 5 explosive arrows to launch, increase the size for each arrow.
Prompt 1 Math
(TOTAL DAMAGE = (100+100x)10 = 2000 damage)
Prompt 2 Math
Tooltip for Explosive Arrow = Deals an extra 25 damage each. Inflicts Burn Damage
it added an additional 125 damage and increased the radius size to 25m
also deals burn damage, 5 ticks of 5 per arrow.
5x25 = 125
Full Math
Baseline skill damage (100) + dex (100) times bonus mod of (10)
explosive arrow x charge amount (5)
burn damage times charge amount (5).
Radius size increases by 5m per charge (max 25m)
(100+100)x(10)=2000 damage
(25x5)=125 explosive arrows damage
(25x5)=25 burn damage x 5 ticks = 125 total burn damage
2000+125+125=2250
NUMBERS ARE SUBJECTIVES
So any rangers can STILL USE THE SKILL but won't trigger the bonus effects w/o specific ammo in their bag/quiver.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Archetypes are not the same. They do not function the way the others do.
I, personally, am a fan of ammo. I do not think that the mechanic for rangers, or anyone using a bow, should be unlimited arrows with no explanation of why, and I seriously doubt there will be an acceptable creation of "lore" behind why every bow on Verra doesn't require arrows. I'll keep an open mind while I wait for this lore. As to those who are talking about the other archetypes/classes that will use a bow as a secondary weapon; they are not meant to use a bow as a primary - so with unlimited ammo, what would you suggest be the modifier that would stop them from dpsing as well as a Ranger? And before you say "the skills that Rangers have", keep in mind that a Ranger specializes in bows and even at base DPS, should be better (or do more damage) with a bow than any non-ranger archetype base class.
Before the trolls come out, I do understand how tedious, monotonous and undesirable of a time sink it can be. I have experienced it, I personally enjoyed it, and I understand those who do/did not. There have been some decent suggestions as a middle ground, so i'll offer mine.
1. In lieu of ammo, there could be an "attack counter" that allows the ranger to have a set amount of basic attacks before needing to recharge. (similar to the quick shot skill from the last dev update). This would allow for no ammo being required, but would put a soft cap on an otherwise infinite attack capability with no ammo required.
2. I like the quivers. More specifically, quivers that hold ammo separate from your actual inventory, and have their own equipment slot. Crafting higher quality arrows, or applying poison to arrows (given the secondary rogue archetype) would be a cool mechanic, but then we reach the question of how many poisoned arrows will you have? Should you just craft a weak poison (weak only because rogue was a secondary archetype) that you can apply to "x" amount of arrows based on the quality of the poison? I do not, however, like the crafting of magical arrows. I think magical arrows should be limited to the secondary archetype and augmenting that the Ranger chooses.
3. As @CROW3 stated:
Lets wait and see what they give us closer to the finishing of the class before we beat our heads against a wall with what-ifs and tantrums.