How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
- It looks like good fun. Enough like a traditional Healer-class that it's recognisable, but with some extra damage bits to round it out. Am looking forwards to giving it a good test.
- I thought the skill icons looked cool.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- I like a mix. Variety is the spice of life, and all.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- Depends on the Archetype, I guess. I generally like my Healer skills to be quicker-casting so I'm more responsive in an emergency, but provided the end results are worth the wait, and that I have enough quicker skills for those emergency situations, it's fine.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- It sounds like a powerful Healer function, but I wonder if it's too "hand-holding", like if it's there to try and make up for bad play or too many mistakes using the wrong skills at the wrong times, for example. But honestly, it's the kind of thing that I'd have to try out first before I was able to give any meaningful feedback.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- I love playing a Healer, and I also love helping improve group DPS. This archetype looks to be able to do both effectively.
- It's nice to see some Heal-over-Time skills, am a big fan of those. Might be good to have a few more?. Again, would need to try it myself.
- Consecrating Wave and Divine Flare look like great skills.
- I like that you've put thought into how the skills will flow into each other, like with the winged jump and the close-quarters heal. It's not simply: "Let's give them some skills!", but "Let's give them some skills that they can actually plan how to use together!" It's easy to see that you're all actual gamers
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
1 Good, 1 Fine, 1 Bad:
- Guild Wars 1 had a nice Healer system. Loads of skills to choose from that do a lot of different types of support stuff, and also had a Damage tree so you weren't confined to being someone's pet.
- ESO's was reasonable, a little lacking on the skills to choose from, but you were able to perform the healing job as it was needed.
- Star Trek Online's was somewhat disappointing, and felt lacking in pretty much every area.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- A shame to not see 'Castigation' in the skill list. Hopefully it hasn't been swapped out? Looked like a really useful skill for resource management that also helped to add a little damage to the pot.
- Will be interesting to test out the Divine Infusion to see how effective it will be. Is an interesting concept. Nice to see that you're thinking outside the box of MMO-normality.
Not sure that I can give much feedback as yet until I've tried it out, and have seen how it compares to the Bard skills for a full support deck. But it's looking very good, so far!
Barrier - why am I sacrificing my health for this? Doesn't seem like a tradeoff that makes sense. Beyond that, as with the temp HP shields, this barrier is way too low and will be used up quickly. It's also too low when you consider I'm giving up 25% HP for it. I like the idea of a Barrier, but this needs a rework.
...
I'd also love to see more damage reduction type skills. The barrier and temp HP ideas are nice, but don't feel impactful enough.
I'd also love some sort of buffs for my party or other utility abilities. Right now it feels like the kit has way too many heals, and the heals have a lot of overlap with one another. I want a more interesting and well-rounded toolkit.
I'd had similar initial thoughts, but we also need to consider what the Bard archetype will be bringing to the group. If Bard is going to be doing these types of things as standard, then it stands to reason that the Cleric would have lesser versions of it in their kit.
I think these were well thought out mechanics and the animations/effects look much better. My concern is how exactly this mixes with another archetype, and I think now it would be very useful to bring out a second archetype like this, and then show us what happens when you mix the two. Maybe this is too far ahead, but it would be nice to see some of the augmentations at work, and kind of the thought process you will want to use as a player to choose between your spells over two archetypes.
-How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
I usually don’t play a pure healer class, but looks pretty good.
-Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
As long as abilities are well balanced and easy to understand how they work then I don’t mind.
-How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Like the previous question, as long as abilities are well balanced and easy to understand how they work then I don’t mind. For example: instant cast abilities might have shorter range(or cost more mana etc) than held abilities.
-How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Good. But I give this answer based on assuming that skill system in AoC is something like Diablo 2 which means player can’t max out every skill.
-What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I don't play a pure healer class so I don’t really know. But what I can tell is which kind of healer I don’t like, too much healing and mana regenerating that makes fights like 1v1/2v2/3v3 takes forever.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The balance between instant cast abilities and held abilities.
How much the capability/potential does Cleric have to solo play.(and other support Archetypes)
The cleric Archetype looks very promising so far. I can see myself having fun playing it and I see room for player skill expression.
I really like when some abilities have versatility and can do different things based on context and/or the target. It makes a kit richer without adding extra abilities.
In general I'm not a big fan of having too many held abilities, it's nice to have some impactful skills have a cast time, but if it's too much it can start feeling clunky, hopefully with the cleric specific resource we can chain cast abilities smoothly.
I think it's a very interesting mechanic to be able to use heals in the middle of an other cast. I also need to mention I love the idea of melee healing.
I hope we will have decent UI customisation for the charges count. I didn't find the little numbers very readable in the ability icons corner.
Overall I'm mostly curious about the kind of augments that will be available to clerics, and what kind of augments will be provided when cleric is selected as a secondary archetype. The base kit has a lot of healing spells, while I would expect some more utility/buff/CC and positional skills (ground based or cleric centered Healing over Time?).
I've seen a menthorship program on wiki.
I would like to see some spells and features unique to the disciple of a mentor if both are clerics:
- shared mana pool or mana flow between them
- enhanced each-other's healing if they have less than 25% health
- inherit a random mentor skill every 60 sec.
- some interesting ability if one of them dies
- blink to mentor and get 3s damage reduction, applied also with delay
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
I am really enjoying the direction here. I feel as though the team listened to feedback and branched out on a lot of skills. As a healer player, I was excited to see the changes for A2!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Versatile for sure. This creates an environment for players to make decisions. Do I want to do more dmg or healing. Do I want to spec/specialize into melee build vs ranged. The amount of abilities that are versatile appears to be at a great spot!
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't mind this at all as long as there is diversity between different types of abilities. I would still prefer to see a bit more action based healers vs tab target heals. Smart heals are great too because it does require some thought into which player to heal so the rest/aoe heal will hit players within the vicinity.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
TBH not a huge fan. Great idea, but seems a bit OP. Worth testing, but doesn't seem very fair. I can't think of a game where a healer/support can use an ability while casting/charging up a different ability.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I still flirt between Cleric and Bard. I am a huge support player and enjoyed what the cleric has to offer. Overall the toolkit seems super strong. Even if mana consumption is high for certain strong abilities, I prefer the action based healing vs standing still and clicking/moseover player frames.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
When I think of healers, I have always loved the HoT healing playstyle. Druid in WoW is probably my favorite of all time especially in PVP. I can use some casts to heal my team and then utilize other abilities to impact the battle. I prefer the proactive style vs reactive. I do feel AoC has a great mix of reactive vs proactive spells.
I guess my initial worry is they will be too strong. A2 will be huge. I just think about the tools available and how providing bubbles without a CD or aoe heal that a cast can be essentially instant with divine power. I like the thought so much, just worry they will have tooo many tools available.
I want healing to be extremely inefficient. So much so that when raid damage happens a healer dies inside a bit. This would open up a lot more design space for raid encounters and healer skills. Along with a heavier focus on group play because a healer could not fix all their mistakes. Start them off weak as possible then buff them to where you want them. Not the opposite.
I think we have seen enough games where healing comes down to the party being full life or nothing. It makes raid damage unimportant and impactful. Raid wide damage should matter and should be something deliberate from the encounter designer. Not just something they spam out to give healers something to do.
Looking good.
Some pretty high jumps in this one. Is there going to be fall damage? Float down spell from mage or shield from cleric? Or, something along those lines for the classes?
Wow, look at all of this excellent feedback! We love to see it! \o/ keep up the thoughtful discussions, friends! This will be an intruiging report to make for our teams
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
- I think it looks nice and promising!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- Versatile. Absolutely. The more to things the better imo.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- Probably not anywhere half the kit but a good chunk is always nice.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- Love it. Hope there are a ample amount of skills that have the same type of function.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- What they bring to the table and the clashing of animations.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- I love the newest take on WoW's Paladin where they are a conjurer of hard-based light. Also like using the Spirit Weapons that Guardians use in GW2.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- That their animation will look "weird" while wielding a staff. While holding the weapon they were, the current animations look decent. While I love that out weapons don't disappear when casting, I would love if it was kept in-mind how a base animation will looking with ALL weapons in mind.
Also please make sure we point and make use of the weapons we have equipped. I always find it nonsensical when games keep your weapon out but the character never makes use of them as a conduit.
Looked decent, the hot values looked really low but other than that it was okay healing wise. Damage wise it was hard to judge from the stream but it might be lacking.
As a suggestion for what I’d like to see:
- there was mention that not all clerics would have all abilities. I’d like to see customization to be able to choose a play style. For example, a choice between a hot mobile healer, a burst healer focusing on cast time heals, or specializing in barriers, etc…
- if those are typical cleric abilities I’d like to see clerics be able to get a lot of abilities from their subclass. Something to enable 2h melee clerics (cleric-fighter), clerics with bows (cleric-ranger), etc…
I think it's overly complicated. To me any heals that function is so many similar ways that don't really define each heal spell in a way that IMO dose not justify at least 1/2 of the heal skills.
I don't even get some of the combos. Like a skill that makes you run to point black range of a friendly target. And another skill that heals a point blank friendly target. Why are these two skills instead of just one? IMO there is just too many healing skills and options. It seems cluttered.
I'm going to keep this simple and focus on the one area of feedback that stuck out to me.
I'd love to see the Cleric Resource utilized a little more to make it feel more special. it was only tied to one abiliy in a way (Divine Infusion), but the way that DI worked didn't seem to have as much Impact since you cast it AFTER an ability is used. I would suggest you change it to the following:
Once a player builds up enough Light Energy resource, let them select Divine Infusion FIRST, which causes the Cleric to let's say, Glow. Then the Cleric can instantly cast any of the spells. Let the Cleric radiate the energy until they utlize the ability or perhaps for 10 seconds and then it wears off.
Otherwise, I was very pleased. I mained a Priest in WoW and played a Cleric in EQ so I am very excited to see future gameplay.
Here are my thoughts on the skills showcased during the latest development update. I hope this does not come off as nitpicking, as I realise that some of these things are likely to be addressed in the "polish" phase anyway.
1. Mend
The wording of the ability's tooltip felt like it slightly contrasted with the verbatim explanation given by Steven during the showcase. More specifically, it was said that this is a good ability to weave inbetween other heals. However, the tooltip states that consecutive uses of the ability will gain bonus healing. I assume consecutive means "used directly one after another" and not "used after other spells", which implies that the bonus healing will not be applied if used in that way. Additionally, the tooltip further states that each charge consumed after the first will have no mana cost. This is a little confusing as I (personally) am not certain whether this would be something that is active for an entire combat encounter after the first cast, or if its more of a "if you allow it to regain all 5 charges without using it, then the next cast will cost mana again". It would be nice to see how this heal (as well as all the other cleric spells of course) would function in action combat mode. Visually it is just fine the way it is, in my opinion.
2. Deliverance
Lack of info in the tooltip (I expand on this in the "General tooltip suggestions" section as this is an issue with all the tooltips). Love the VFX.
3. Soothing Glow
I think the VFX is a little overwhelming when put into perspective for raids, sieges etc. Perhaps reduce the circling orbs from 3 to just 1 and reduce it slightly in size.
4. Flash Cure
I love the fact that this spell exists and am grateful for it! VFX is good and I like that there is no cast animation for this spell even when it is used by itself as this tracks with how it looks when cast amid other animations.
5. Resplendent Beam
As I mentioned in the "General tooltip suggestions" section, it would be nice to see a midway breakpoint value for this spell, i.e. - "if skill is charged at least halfway, hits 3 targets". I understand that this introduces more min-maxing elements, but it would be quite useful. The amount of healing reduced per target hit should also be indicated in some way. Additionally, perhaps introducing a target prioritizing element would be useful, i.e. - "prioritizes targets with lowest HP%" or "prioritizes new targets" or even "prioritizes targets other than the caster, unless there are fewer than 5 in range". VFX is well done here as well.
6. Bless Weapon
The wording of the ability's tooltip is confusing as it also seems to contrast with the verbatim explanation given during the showcase. The tooltip states that it "applies a mana regeneration buff to the caster". This sounds like the mana regen benefit is given to the cleric casting the spell and not the target with the buff, but the verbal explanation stated the oppposite. Once again, the values for both the mana on-hit and the damage should be mentioned in the tooltip. It might be nice to increase the value of the mana on-hit when a full weapon combo is used, on the last attack of the combo. I.e - if each hit gives 10 mana, maybe the 3rd combo attack gives 30. This will reward players who are completing the combo attack chain. Love the VFX!
7. Judgement
I love the duplicity of this spell and the fitting name choice. It may be nice to base the heal amount and dmg dealt values on target HP% as well. This would mostly improve the damage aspect of the spell because having access to few damaging spells as a healer is already punishing, so having a flat dmg spell would probably feel a bit bad. I love the VFX for this, but think that there should be a visual difference when the spell is being cast on an ally vs. on an enemy. I.e.- keep the current colors for ally target cast, but change it to something else for enemy, maybe orange or pale red. This will be a helpful indicator in PvP.
8. Communal Restoration
The wording of the tooltip contradicts what the spell does. More specifically, it states "Restore health to all party members in range instantly ", however the spell has a cast time of seemingly ~3s (I understand that the intention here is to differentiate between upfront healing and applied HoT, but this needs to be clarified in the tooltip, i.e.- "Restore x health to all party members in range and apply an additional HoT. Allies under the effect of the HoT also gain 10% of their maximum health as temporary HP for its duration"). I think the range should be indicated in the tooltip, even if it is massive (mainly for raids and PvP where positioning matters most). I also think that perhaps it should heal a bit more as a flat amount, but also have a cooldown. Maybe something along the lines of 45s or more, as this spell is quite packed and should not be spammed. I get that its mana cost is quite high, but I feel like that is not limiting enough for such a strong spell.
9. Consecrating Wave
The tooltip should include information about the fact that this is a dual purpose ability like Judgement. It should also indicate the values for both heal and damage, as well as how much each value decreases based on amount of targets hit. I think the range should be displayed in the tooltip and it should have a cooldown, even if it is a short one, i.e. - 1-3s. As for the VFX - I feel like the tooltip for this should say "wave" and not "cone" because 1. its in the name and 2. it looks more like a wave than a cone anyways. Other than that, I love the VFX for this!
10. Divine Flare
The tooltip should indicate how many seconds it takes for the ability to land. I like that the total healing is split between targets. I think the VFX requires a tiny amount of polish as its currently not super clear on when exactly the ability is going to land - there is a small discrepancy between the completion of the animation and when the heal actually lands (maybe ~1s or slightly more) which needs to be clearer. Other than that, I love the VFX for this as well!
11. Barrier
I think the value of HP sacrificed should be indicated in place of where the mana normally is (from my example below in the "general tooltips suggestions" it would be in the top right). Then the tooltip text below should just say "Sacrifice a portion of your maximum health to...". This could also allow for scaling of HP later on with more levels/ranks in the spell (if that is going to be a thing). Love the VFX here as well, but maybe remove the internal yellow circle glow and just keep the outward spherical shape and glow. This is just in case there are any other effects that add a glow to the character model which may clash or overlap with that.
12. Chains of Restraint
I like the VFX, but the outline needs to be a bit harsher. Perhaps the chain can be thicker and darker in color. No other input on the functionality as it seems pretty straightforward.
13. Defiant Light
Some minor things to nitpick about in the tooltip - replace "that" with "the" and replace the 2nd "this effect" with just "it". Additionally, at the end of the tooltip I assume it should say that the spell would heal the target for 25% of their maximum health immediately instead. I like the VFX.
14. Healing Touch
Only gripe I have with the animation for this ability is that the spell is called "Healing Touch", but the animation does not relay that. It would be nice to have the character model reach out to touch the target and maybe even be forced to turn and face the target for this to look better. Honestly, this feels a little strange for the cleric only because it seems to be the only ability that requires them to be in melee range, whereas everything else shown was long range. Perhaps it would be good for the Paladin class, along with hopefully some other melee/short range support abilities.
15. Wings of Salvation
I like the functionality, but again feel that this is not that suitable for clerics considering almost everything else is long range. Perhaps the functionality could be tweaked a little bit where it gives both the target and caster a small barrier and can then be used as more of an escape for the cleric (during PvP or raid mechanics). I noticed that this ability can be used mid-air (shown at the end of the video) - this should be indicated in the tooltip somehow. If falling damage is a thing (I really hope it is!) and if the Mage archetype has a typical ability such as Slow Fall, then the Wings of Salvation can function similarly and be used to mitigate fall damage for clerics by jumping to an ally just before they hit the ground. I would love to see the complete VFX for this when it's ready, but hope it's not too overwhelming.
16. Divine Infustion
To start off, with regards to the Divine Power resource - I feel like there should be significant benefits when holding onto this resource and not consuming it for extended periods of time. Perhaps it gives bonus mana regen in combat as well as some cooldown reduction for all spells, i.e. - 15% cooldown reduction while it is maintained at full bar. I know Steven mentioned that there will be a passive benefit that "amplifies some spell efficacy as a healer", but I feel that the suggestion above impacts clerics as a whole (heals AND dmg) in a better way. I like that this resource fills up in a "heat mechanic" way instead of as an instant gratification value.
In terms of the actual skill which utilizes this spell, I feel like the functionality should be changed. I think instead of it completing the cast of a spell that is already being casted, it should just allow the next spell to be instantly cast to its full potential (the reason I emphasize this is because during the video it is said that this will allow the cleric to finish the cast sooner than normally possible, however this isn't entirely accurate as technically with some abilities the player can let go of the button early to cast the spell sooner to a lesser effect. With the addition of "to its full potential" this now means that the target would get the maximum heal value out of a spell that normally requires a long charge up. I think the details are important in this case). There are 2 reasons for this change: 1. it will force clerics to pay more attention to how they chain their heals (if you use up Divine Infusion, but then end up using Flash Heal or another short cast time heal, then you've wasted it) and most importantly, 2. it will prevent clerics from wasting time casting a spell for a second or two before completing it. I know this is a minute difference, but it will be significant, especially in PvP.
Lastly, in terms of the tooltip, I think the wording will need to be changed slightly - it currently states that "the amount of Divine Power consumed is proportional to the amount of cast time remaining upon activation", however this does not seem to be the case. When I read proportional I assume it means if the spell has 5 seconds left then I spend 5 Divine Power to finish the cast. Therefore the word "proportional" may not be the best to use here. Maybe describe it as "relative to" with the understanding that the cast time is multiplied by 10 - i.e. if the ability has a cast time of 5, then 50 Divine Power will be consumed (this is in accordance with the suggested change of pre-casting Divine Power to make the next ability an instant cast).
17. Smite
Once again, the tooltip is slightly misleading as it states that you deal "instant" damage, however there is a cast time for the spell. I understand the intention behind this is to indicate the difference between the upfront damage and the applied dot, however I feel this should be worded differently for clarity. I.e. - "Smite your target, dealing x [upfront] damage and applying a stack of Burning...". Love the VFX for this spell too!
18. Condemn
Not much to say about this spell as it's pretty simple with an obvious use. Perhaps with additional levels/ranks in the spell (once again, if that is going to be a thing) it increases the target count or the duration. I like the VFX.
19. General tooltip suggestions
- I think it would be good to include things such as "Charges" or "Held ability" on the part of the tooltip where the cooldown, range and mana cost would be displayed. Perhaps "Mana cost" could be shown directly opposite the cooldown, but on the same line (I noticed the "Mana Cost" and "Cooldown" seem to be swapped in some abilities, i.e - Mend & Flash Cure, which can be confusing to keep track of, as it is not uniform). "Charges" or "Held ability" could be shown directly opposite the "Range", but on the same line. This will keep that top utility part of the tooltips uniform in size (2 lines only) and representation of resources/requirements.
- It would be nice to see the healing values in the tooltips, as well as more information on spells that have variable charge or depend on target's HP% at the time. For charged abilities, the minimum and maximum values should be displayed(Tap: heals x value; Held all the way: heals x value), perhaps even a midway breakpoint (i.e. - "if skill is charged at least halfway, heals X value"). For HP% dependancies, League of Legends does this well - i.e. "maximum value gained at 10% hp or lower". I assume this will be polished once the balancing of the abilities is done, but wanted to note it anyway, just in case.
- I think all abilities' range should be indicated in the tooltips. Exception could be the melee heal which could just state "melee" in the range section of the tooltip.
- In order to keep things uniform, it would also be good to have a CD indicator in the tooltips of all abilities. For abilities with no CD, that should be stated simply as "No CD".
20. UI suggestion
- The barrier and temporary hit points values should either be displayed differently to one another (different colour), or should be merged into the same thing as they pretty much are the same thing. I think the value should be displayed by a number that is centered within the section of the HP bar where it is indicated.
- I think the number shown for "charges" on the tooltip icon should be slightly larger and a darker colour as it is a little hard to see at the moment.
The rest of my feedback pertaining to the posed questions and the dev update in general can be found here:
Hi Intrepid! I just want to say I'm an enthusiastic fan of your ambitious vision for AoC and religiously watch every livestream (and analyze it again once the vods are up.. lol)
I decided to separate the two for maximum visibility.
Apologies for the long read! I hope at least some of these suggestions are found to be helpful.
Hi Intrepid! I just want to say I'm an enthusiastic fan of your ambitious vision for AoC and religiously watch every livestream (and analyze it again once the vods are up.. lol).
As a diehard healer/support main with a bit over a decade of gaming and several mmos under my belt, I decided to stop lurking and actually put in the time to properly relay my opinions of the archetype so far. Overall I am impressed with the progress and admittedly inch further and further away from hopefully cautious and closer to excitedly expectant with every passing dev update. I would like to preface the following lengthy post by saying that I only nitpick out of love and because as a perfectionist, I believe this game could be my dream for MMOs come true and hope to offer whatever support I can to fulfil this dream of mine. I hope you can receive this as constructive suggestions.
As others have already expressed countless times, I love the graphics and design choices thusfar, and am really looking forward to the game itself. I am eternally happy that this project exists and have been following its progress since 2017, and will continue to do so until the game's release in the hopes that it will reignite my passion for MMOs.
I will offer some feedback on the suggested questions for this topic, but would also like to go a bit more indepth with the skills that were displayed further on. Separate comment on this here:
Here are my thoughts on the skills showcased during the latest development update. I hope this does not come off as nitpicking, as I realise that some of these things are likely to be addressed in the "polish" phase anyway...
1. How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The highest compliment I can give is that I can most certainly see myself playing (and truly enjoying) a class with cleric as its primary archetype. It fulfills my role and class fantasy, and makes me excited for the opportunity to strategize by both predictively and reactively healing. I only wish we had more information with regards to the variation between each class that involves this archetype and how unique they will feel. I know it was mentioned during the stream that players are not required to pick all of the skills shown, but can rather pick and choose what feels best to them. I also believe (unless I misheard) that it was mentioned somewhere that when we have picked our secondary class we will have access to ~30-40 skills. As mentioned before, I wish we knew how those skills will be affected by the choice of primary and secondary class - how much will it matter which one was selected as primary, will there be any alterations to the archetype-specific skills based on this selection, etc. One of my biggest fears is that to truly make the 64 classes as impressive and special as they sound on paper will require an insane amount of time, creativity and resources. I really, really hope the final product does not resemble the system it drew inspiration from in ArcheAge too much, as that system was flawed and honestly kind of pointless. Due to the abovementioned lack of info, I will stop here with regards to how I feel about the cleric archetype for now.
2. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the versatility you are attempting to introduce in the cleric abilities thusfar and hope that this trend continues with the other archetypes as well. I appreciate that this lets us introduce strategy into our gameplay as healer/support without cluttering our action bars with hundreads of skills that all do 1 thing only. I would even expand this further with things like how Judgement functions as a healing or damaging spell based on target. Perhaps something like, say, a Revive spell which functions as either single target, but allowed while in combat and/or on a shorter cooldown or as an AoE, but only available out of combat and/or on a significantly longer cooldown. The only concern I have is that I suppose if all archetypes were treated fairly (which is, of course, what we would like to see) then that would pose an issue of having to come up with hundreads of unique, multifunctional spells. From a creativity standpoint, this may be a bit difficult to achieve, but I have faith in you guys!
3. How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I think the amount that was showcased was not unreasonable and I had no concerns in regards to this. I have seen some comments of people concerned with the "finger gymnastics" of having to hold down a spell, while using WASD to move and mouse to aim, but I am not too concerned as of yet. I have used these types of mechanics in other MMOs without much of a problem, so I guess we'll have to test this in Alpha 2 to truly feel it out. It will depend on raid boss mechanics how much/frequently we have to move around. I can only see it being a bit of a struggle in the case of PvP, but to be fair that is a trade-off that should be enforced. PvP is about reactiveness and speed of reflexes, so theoretically we should be using faster-cast abilities in PvP situations. This is something that each player will need to strategize for and keep in mind. We have options, so personally I see no issue with the concept atm.
4. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Honestly conflicted on this. From a purely functionality-based point I love the idea of being able to have a fail-safe for those clutch heals. On the other hand, in theory and based on RP, it would feel strange to be able to throw in a quick heal while I am channeling a big one. I would assume that I am concentrating on the channel of the big heal and therefore only able to focus on that. I guess it depends on how much realism you want to enforce (considering "channeling" is a fantasy-related term anyway) when it comes to things like that. Personally, I don't think it would bother me too much.
5. What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I don't want to waffle on and repeat myself too much, so I will just say its mostly the reasons above. The ability to sustain my designated tank or party through a tough fight gives me a sense of fulfillment In my group of friends I find that oftentimes support roles are overlooked and dps roles are seen as more fun and engaging, so I have always been the dedicated healer/support. I enjoy it and I enjoy enabling the others to have fun their way. It's a win-win.
6. What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I have played a respectable amount of MMOs is my time as a gamer. My list includes: Aion, ArcheAge, Black Desert Online, Blade & Soul, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter, Perfect World Internation (the MMO that introduced me to the genre and stole years of my life, lol), Tera, V Rising, WildStar, WoW Classic and some lesser ones (in my opinion) such as Forsaken World, Lost Ark, RaiderZ and Vindictus. Out of all of those, I believe I enjoyed playing cleric most in PWI and Tera. Both offered a good amount of damage and healing options, and had a good variety of situational healing skills to choose from. I liked the template AoE heals and ability to pull an ally to yourself from cleric in Tera. I also liked the "bubble" skills from the cleric class in PWI. The concept was interesting - casting a blue bubble to continuously heal, or a red bubble to provide channeling and attack speed, plus some dps boost - both at the cost of mana per second. Unfortunately, in the case of the latter, PWI offered mana charms which would automatically refill your mana when it dropped below 50%, making these skills quite mindless when in use. You only had to worry about the channel being interrupted due to aggro swap, which was highly unlikely anyway.. Overall though, the cleric skills and Sage/Demon variations of them that PWI offered back around 2009-2013 were inspired and to this day, I yearn to find an MMO that offers such unique and interesting abilities. I hope Ashes of Creation can be that MMO
7. Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Aside from my other comment detailing my suggestions for each skill that was showcased, I have some other concerns. (Note: I will be using examples of spells from PWI and Tera, with tweaks suggested by me)
- I feel that the cleric was lacking in self-defense abilities. I feel that there should be a spell which allows them to protect themselves without sacrificing their own HP like in the case with Barrier. Perhaps a sustained toggle shield-type spell which consumes varible mana for each hit they take based on incoming damage. This will make the spell situational, where the cleric has to make a hard choice on whether they can sacrifice a lot of their mana to survive something or try and outheal the incoming damage.
- As I'm sure has already been mentioned by others, I feel the cleric lacked in offensive abilities. I am hopeful that this will be mitigated by adding a secondary archetype of course, but still feel that there needs to be at least 1 or 2 more spells available before then to support the solo player experience.
- I feel that the cleric lacked buffs. Once again using PWI as example, they had both single target and party-wide buffs that improved ally's defensive capabilities, health and mana regen, max HP, move speed and even dmg output. Now, I feel that maybe having a single target and party-wide variant of the same spell is excessive and a waste of action bar slots, so I would suggest only having party-wide buffs on a short cooldown.
- Most importantly, the cleric lacked a cleanse/purify type spell which would remove one or multiple debuffs. I feel like this is a vital part of a cleric's kit which should be included. It would be awesome to have such a spell which is also based on charge time, i.e. - if tapped only cleanses 1 target, if held to full becomes a party-wide cleanse. Alternatively, it could just remove 1 debuff if tapped or all debuffs if held down for ~5s.
- Debuffs - yet again using PWI as example. Clerics were able to apply debuffs to the enemy's physical and magic defense, as well as silence. However, I also feel like perhaps some other archetypes could utilize such debuffs in a more thematically-friendly fashion. I.e - mage applies a magical defense debuff, fighter applies a physical defense debuff, etc. There was one skill that I found particularly interesting (from the PWI cleric) that was a fail-safe with a negative impact on the target. It froze the target for 15s rendering them incapable of taking any actions, while reducing their damage taken by 90%. Something similar would be cool to have.
- Clerics in Tera had a skill called Divine Intervention which allowed them to pull an ally to themselves. While I liked this ability, I also feel like it could be used maliciously to grief and troll people, so perhaps if a similar ability is implemented, it should be restricted to party-members only with an additional gameplay option (in the game settings) where players can have an auto-refuse tickbox just in case.
That is it for the moment, as both of my comments are already incredibly long... oops!
I would like to say thank you to everyone at Intrepid for their hard work and dedication. It shows! It is inspiring to see you guys turning your vision into reality and I cannot wait to finally set foot on Vera as a Cleric main!
I like the pacing, the animations, the mobility, and the span of the toolkit; it all looks very fun and interactive with lots of flexibility and meaningful choices to be made during combat.
I hope that as much of the featured toolkit as possible will be available to the ”general” Cleric without requiring deep specialization, whereas the advantage of the highly specialized Cleric will be more horsepower and more bonus effects to their skills. This is to still provide lots of depth and flexibility even to the hybrid albeit at a lower power-level and with less synergies.
Versatility of a spell provides depth and helps bring about more dynamic gameplay with a higher skill ceiling. I’m all for it. Additionally, the greater the span of possibilities within a certain archetype, the greater are the chances of minimizing drawbacks to bringing more than one of each, indeed making group-forming easier.
How many held abilities? A good mix. In between classic cast time, instants, charged up, and channeled, I would like to feel that I’m dancing, not relying on a rotation, but having free agency that’s resonant and adaptive – something I can vary depending on mood.
Ratio estimate with a good amount being offensive or hybrid:
8-12 classic casts of varying casting-time.
8-12 instants. 4-7 charged up (held). 2-3 channeled (different kind of a ”held” ability).
It seems like you are leaning heavier into instants and away from the classic casting-time, which is also fine.
I like to have crazy ideas, so here’s another one for you: How about one ability of a new kind; the mechanic is similar to a ”do [something powerful] and skip your next turn” in a card game, for instance: 10 seconds after using the ability you become paralyzed for 10 seconds, or, you become paralyzed for a whole minute but some specific actions of your comrades can chip away at that timer, or the ultimate sacrifice if it’s a really strong spell then after 10 seconds you outright die with no saves from things like Defiant Light, but your very death (if triggered from this ability) is an explosion of radiant energy that damages, heals, and shields, or something.
Alternatively and less dramatic (booo) it could also just lock you out of using a particular school/type of skill for a small period.
It could also be a ”take an extra turn, after that turn you lose the game” kind of mechanic. This might be too crazy though, where you gain faster casting (faster animations for instants and perhaps more charges where applicable) for a short period of time after which you die like above.
Alternatively to dying, but also pretty epic, could be a silhouette of particles departing from you after your zealous craze, while you are forced to your knees panting and unable to move, the silhouette floats forward conferring blessings around it (HoTs, shields, buffs perhaps randomly selected from a balanced pool of options) before it explodes in a radiant blast as described above. This way we get an incredibly exciting ability that’s fresh and with an element of stimulating chance, while we don’t have to worry about incurring consequences of a guaranteed self-imposed player death, though we get a similar sensation when we are paralyzed while our radiant silhouette explodes.
Flash Cure, yeah some ropes to climb player-skill wise and a nimble move to add to the dance is cool. I like the sound effect, but I thought about how you could also convey in the animations when Flash Cure is being used simultaneously with another spell. I’d love to see it subtly reflected, like slowly blinking with your eyes when triggering, slightly bending your knees and leaning forward progressively as you consume more charges. This way (maybe) it could be mixed with the different animations of the spells it would play during, and it would have an animation of its own.
Favorite Cleric archetypes in other games:
Healer in Dark Age of Camelot: Massive healing, single-target and AoE, a few buffs, and an insane arsenal of CC, typically leading ”the train” in RvR scenarios to be the first to mezz the enemy group after which you’d find the right distance to avoid incoming nukes and kite melee whilst tossing out heals and stuns on enemies. So challenging, so scary, and so fun!
Zealot in Warhammer Online: Powerful healer, buffer, and debuffer, with good mobility due to some instant casts while (with the right spec) suddenly finding yourself in the middle of an enemy group doing some unexpected PBAoE (Point Blank AoE) shenanigans.
My brother played a Warrior Priest, and that beast of a class has an incredibly fun play-style being in the midst of combat, crushing foes with great hammers while weaving heals.
More ideas:
• You could embrace different play-styles and accommodate increased strategic engagement regarding the setup and interplay of abilities by developing the versatility of each spell while adding an element of personalization to that: It might be cool to have some ”modular” form of specialization that boost or introduce an element to a spell, enhancing certain play-styles, i.e. HoTs vs. direct, AoE vs. single target, close vs. distance, offensive spell-weaving vs. strictly healing, etc. Implemented on a skill-by-skill basis, ”modular” would mean flexibility and mostly independent of other factors (in contrast to branches where you commit to an extent). A rough example of what I mean is found in ESO where skills can ”morph”.
Yes, I believe that much of the extra flavour of spells will be introduced with the second archetype, good, however I would personally like to see both as layers of customization. That is an intra-archetype specialization + an inter-archetype specialization.
• I would like to see buffs/synergies woven into some spells with effects that are dependent on the primary archetype of the recipient. It would make me thrilled to benefit my comrades in special ways with otherwise the same spells. This would bring more exploration and awe.
It does not have to be just core mechanics, in fact I would love to see some niche mechanics featured in these archetype-buffs, like amplifying a Rogue’s detection skill. I particularly imagine the Barrier spell being useful and balanced to apply archetype-buffs, because it’s a common thing to want to pre-shield, and receiving a shield as a Rogue before you seek out and initiate disarming a trap just makes a ton of sense. Additionally, due to its high cost on the Cleric’s health, it will be a restricted cast thus an infrequent buff, although it unlocks a new play-style where the Cleric will need some primary healing in order to dish out more Barrier buffs. Anyway that’s just a sketch idea to exemplify the general idea.
I realize that you can’t just crank all knobs raising complexity into the realm of chaos, but I do think there is room for more complexity to add to the engagement, diversity, skill ceiling, - and fun. Though I reckon you’re also reserving a chunk of the synergies/buffs for the Bard to bring ;}
• Auras to be juggled as part of a big-cycle rotation. I mean big cycle, like pulsing for thirty seconds, because there is already so much to do in between the different healing spells, damage, and CC.
• I like the idea of the Divine Power resource, though I would love to see a mechanic to further incentivize the spending of Divine Power, so it becomes more integrated and frequently used even when its main function is unnecessary because of non-threatening situations. Something like a minor boost to mana regen comes to mind.
Two particular ideas about two spells’ functionality:
Consecrating Wave:
I like the idea of having the throughput split into damage & healing across targets hit, but perhaps make it heal a bit more the more enemy targets are hit.
We could also extend its range and make the effect scale up with the individual target’s proximity, and/or divide the cone into two parts, and have the farthest part do X while the closest part does X + Y. For example:
Friendly X = a heal. Y = small shield, HoT, or buff.
Hostile X = damage. Y = small debuff.
The dual effect could, of course, also apply to the whole cone while scaling off of proximity. The idea is to reward the Cleric for the risk taken to get close to the action while also rewarding them for hitting more enemies. On the flip side, for Clerics that prefer to stay at some range, intra-archetype-specialization could extend the range even further, and the effect could be inverted – thus the challenge for them would be to hit their targets with the wave at the very end of it for maximal effect.
Divine Flare:
While it could be cool – I think there’s something counter-intuitive about a GTAoE heal that sometimes wants to be a single-target heal. It could be cool because it’s a twist on the skillful aspect of its situationally dynamic usage: Here’s a big healing circle, now try not to hit all your amigos! That’s pretty fresh – just not sure if it’s really a desirable dynamic, and I’m not sure if we really need to add more to the friction of being a healer.
I realize that it’s up to the Cleric to estimate if a single-target heal is needed on someone because Divine Flare simply isn’t enough when split – but I think it works against the nature of a GTAoE if it isn’t advantageous to hit more targets. I’m afraid it’s going to sit in between two chairs instead of being good for what's intuitive and expected.
I don’t think this is the right place to emphasize friction between players. There can be a million mechanics that spur conflict and make us skeptic of one another, however, once we’re in a coop party-ally-situation I do not think that mechanics should provide more friction than necessary. Please don’t overclock the inter-allies friction :} That being said, I’m a fan of high skill ceilings, also at lower adventure-levels, thus I’m a fan of deep versatile skills. So I would suggest that a component is added to Divine Flare that perhaps detracts from its desire to be a single-target heal, and nudge it into its natural domain of embracing as many as possible. You know what would be cool? Since it’s called Divine Flare, there could be a sort of soft CC or debuff (a ”blind” that lowers chance to hit?) on undead hit when the spell goes off. Then the effect could linger a bit like a consecration applying a mild HoT on allies and a slight DoT burn effect to enemies.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for listening to the community.
And thank you for living the dream and making a fantastic game that me and my friends cannot wait to explore!
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Very optimistic about the gameplay experience Ashes of Creation may offer it's player, and the longevity of the game.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I really liked the what was shown, but would advice against oversaturating the toolkit with too many flexible abilities. Adding a few core abilities with versatility looks very interessting. Hands on testing would be critical for any valuable feedback however.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Add the hold mechanic where it makes sense. Less is more. I would also suggest you use the entire range of charge-up mechanics (charge up with optimal release window (maybe even with penalties for misses), charge up for increased effect, continous effect, repeated and timed holds, etc).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Very good, keep it! Reminds me of the golden age of Everquest and the purple club.
(For those unfamiliar, in Everquest every player would fall unconscious at zero hitpoints, and death occured at negative 10 hitpoints. The clerics Complete Heal had 10 seconds cast time. Landing a Complete Heal on a tank while his hitpoints were between zero and negative 10 was nothing but luck and foolishness. But it was a minigame for healers stuck in static camps for hours on end with nothing but buffing and some minescule dps. If you were so lucky to land a group with some large orgs MT tanking, you only ever had to drop a Complete Heal every now and then, maybe with as much as 15 minute intervals. The healthbar would change from red to purple when the player was unconscious. These tanks could easily have 6-8k hitpoints, some even more. Hence the name purple club.)
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
A robust and familiar toolkit sprinked with new shinies looks like recipie for success. It looks like a very strong foundation to build the healer subclasses on, with many options for specialization. I am in particular exited to see how much a fighter secondary archetype can exploit and build upon the melee heals already showcased. I truly hope we get more of those.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I played a healer or supportclass in every MMO, from Everquest (1 and 2), City of Heroes, Anarchy Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Rift, Saga of Ryzom, Aion, to Elder Scrolls Online, Black Desert Online and New World.
It is hard to pick a favorite. I have the absolute most fond moments from Cleric in Everquest, but I also thoroughly enjoyed Defender in City of Heroes, Trader in Anarchy Online, Defiler in Everquest 2, or Shaman in World of Warcraft and Vanguard.
None of the never games sparked the kind of enjoyment and exitement as the old ones did. It is sad, really, how all the new games failed at the most basic level.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
This class demonstration made me concerned I had made the wrong choice for my starting archetype, and I am now seriously considering going back to my healer roots.
1) First of all I like that the weapon doesnt dissapear when you cast abilities, unlike ESO. I hope you maintain this across all archetypes and all weapons.
This right here is a gold-nugget! Thank you for pointing this out, @George_Black
I completely agree!
I'd like to add as an extra piece of general feedback, since PvP internal testing was mentioned in the stream and it's important to showcase it correctly:
The way I feel PvP should first be showcased is through an actual duel system instead of just flagging up, having some form of consensual PvP first, the easiest is with Duels, have some basic UI elements for it - send duel and accept, this can include group duels as well - but most importantly - I think it's very important for future spot testing to already have CC Breaks / diminishing returns implemented to better represent PvP even at early testing stages, and also have a first pass in balancing and make sure you achieve a longer TTK with equal gear, I hope we get to see that in place before PvP is showcased because even with the "WIP" disclaimer, those elements are very important for first impressions,
you could also follow those duels up with a some flagging and corruption system showcase to include both consensual and non-consensual PvP on the stream, talking about the system and the death penalties,
I feel that would be the best possible way to do this showcase
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The variations in healing options especially the reactive / quick ones are really cool to see. Seems this will be a more active healing style which I love.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Reigned-in variability. I think what youre going for here with the ability to quick-finish hard casts / have abilities that get stronger the longer they are held are great. It feels bad to spec a certain way and to suddenly find your entire kit or a key part of it completely useless. This gives options to be less but still effective.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
absolutely amazing. I only wonder if I can heal a secondary target while hard casting on the first
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
From this showcase - the cleric seems like it not only plays a role with healing but also crowd control via its own direct input as well as synergizing with other classes. This makes it less brainded UI whack-a-mole which I think is good.
I know you guys said not to mention Steven's playing so I wont directly BUT: I truly feel that showcases could properly show off classes better if there was at least additional clips at the end of his own presentation of maybe some pre-recorded team content. Such as clips from Margarets play that she was referencing after the showcase.
The chaos of these fights was actually REALLY awesome but it hurt to see a big chunk of the kit not used when it should be (like, not using the damage + healing wave when enemies were around, not using chains the entire fight, just little things). Steven brings great humor and a different "non-elitest" style to his show cases but Id love to see the classes really SHINE optimally as well just to see the breadth of the class.
Overall - best showcase so far IMO Great work guys
Random thought but having one of the aoe abilities a cleric has reveal nearby hidden creatures while it persist would be nice.
I had another concern occur to me. While I am really excited on the cast time mechanic making what was normally a boring mechanic more interesting, but I can't figure out how it will exist in a pvp space. This where my first thought is to speed them up like what Lark mentioned earlier. This would naturally speed up cadence of everything which I don't really want to see happen. I like the idea of fights being a little longer to allow for more involved rotations/ramp and skill expression through righting a fight. It gets boring if it is just about who engages first.
I suppose the showcase of abilities has me excited to use them. My want of light armor and excitement for the cast time mechanic are to me my largest concerns and are summarized as, I like what I see but I am having a hard time seeing it exist in one of the biggest parts of Ashes - pvp.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The class is showing potential, although I think it still lacks some other skills a cleric should have, but it is to be expected since it is pre-alpha 2. I guess most of what I ask for is planned for already, but the class obviously needs a revive skill, dispel ability to remove debuffs, and a few buffs (durable ones), at the moment it lacks utility.
I am quite curious how you can build a more melee oriented Cleric though.
The divine power resource is a very good mechanic, and I hope the class gets more ways to play around it. However I feel the amount the player restores this resource is a bit slow the way it is at the moment. In addition to the “on time recovery of divine power” it would be interesting to have a way to get a small amount of it instantly like using a CC successfully, shielding, a debuff would be a good incentive to make sure the Cleric that uses all the archetype potential is rewarded accordingly.
Regarding the abilities, most of them are good the way they are but I think these ones could have some changes :
Deliverance : To get the maximum healing output, the threshold should be at 20% or 15% current HP of the target. I know that this is the mechanic of this skill, but no healer right in his mind would wait for the target to reach less than 10% just to maximize the heal. Any mistakes could lead to the death of the target, especially in unforgiving environments such as PvP or Raids.
Communal Restoration : Increase the health restored or the HOT & remove the temporary health, my reasoning behind that is written below*
Divine Flare : I think that this skill brings too many cons for what it gives in the end. In PvE it might be a fine skill, though the heals are divided so it is not that good. But in PvP, it feels like it gives a target to your opponents.
The only good way of using it might be when a party member is stunlocked, this skill should be changed or give more benefits for the risks it represents in such a case.
Divine Infusion : It would be interesting if this skill had an other effect than just removing the casting time from an ability, maybe empowering a skill giving an additional effect or strengthening the current effect.
Condemn : The casting time is too long for what it does, either change it completely to maybe an instant cast root or slow for 3 or 4s, with a decent cooldown, or add damages to the already existing stun.
Overall a 0.5s less casting time would be very good for the 3s ones.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
For healing & support, I think that more abilities available to choose from for single and specific uses is good. The versatility and “multi-uses” should come from augments. Regarding combat/healing, having some abilities that can do both is good.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
4 or 5 maximum (if the choice is from 30~40 different abilities).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I think that the idea is good, but not properly executed, it was made to be the last resort for the cleric to prevent someone’s death. It should have no charges, have a stronger heal amount, and consume divine power &/or have a long cooldown and lastly consume far more mana for a proper impact on the Cleric and its target.
The way it is now looks like extra heal to me, there is no tradeoff for such ability, just spam it every time you can since the charges come back quickly. Why wait for the target to be low hp, when you can prevent him from being close to death by spamming it.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I cannot say how I would feel like to play against it at the moment since I have yet to see all archetype’s kits to the level of which the Cleric was showcased. But it seems to have decent survivability, I can’t wait to challenge myself to find ways to kill one.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
The cleric from Aion (which the Cleric from AOC showcased here surprisingly looks similar to it), the skill ceiling on this class is pretty deep. A good Cleric can make a whole group survive in desperate situations, depending on his stigma builds he can be very tanky (in the best conditions) and survive focus in pvp and heal his whole group after having absorbed most of the damages, but if he builds DPS, he can burst almost as much as Sorcerers, without giving up totally on healing.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The Divine Infusion seems like it will be one of the core mechanics to master for the player to play as a DPS Cleric. I am curious to see how players will manage to create builds to catch up to other classes' dps.
I also have some concerns regarding these things :
*Temporary Health : I feel like the way this buff is less useful than the regular bonus HP we have in other MMOs, except in a very specific case where the target is getting burst down. By taking a look at the fight at 39:17 >> 39:20 we can see that when Bucky is being hit by the mob, the blue bar from the temporary health decreases and his regular health is not touched until all the bonus is depleted.
The main problem is that temporary health seems to have the same effect as shields, as we can see in the video 44:21.
So this raises the questions, although similar in use, does the shield give another advantage compared to the temporary health ? Shields seem mono-target and last longer, but the barrier ability specifies that it cannot be stacked. Can you have both temporary health & shield at the same time ?
Does HP bonus buffs exists independentely from temporary health ?
Also I feel like a bonus of HP should be merged with the current’s target health, in some MMOs, abilities scale with HP, it would make more sense for the temporary health to work the same, and last longer for a better usage.
Lastly, the temporary health bonus should be also shown in numbers in the target bar. As we saw in the gameplay showcase, the only indicator of this buff is the icon under the target health bar and the blue part that is added on top of it.
The mana regeneration should be increased out of combat.
These abilities could lead to things like Wings of Salvation > Chains > Close ranged heal which is an example of cool combos the game needs more of. If you're gonna use Rakan's E from League of Legends (wings of salvation), I honestly think his entire kit is extremely interesting and worth looking at.
It gives you the agency to play off your own abilities while playing off others. Wings is exactly the type of ability I was talking about when I made my posts about dynamic options. Maybe you could even allow channels/endlag of abilities during wings of salvation for some extra skill expression, since it seems like cleric mobility will be rare.
Deliverance seems to be really strong - the fact that it still gets the heal off if interrupted seems crazy for pvp.
In general - there were quite a lot of abilities that were simply a different type of heal, and all of them seem pretty easy to use. I would have enjoyed examples of heals that actually required aim (Divine Flare is somewhat a good example) or particularly - more forms of unique utility, as when I think of a DnD cleric, I think of utility...but I know that there are still abilities yet to be shown.
Maybe we could see more single target utility as well - I actually think Leap of Faith (pull your ally) is one of the more fun abilities to steal from WoW.
Overall, I think this was my favorite livestream because of the number of abilities shown, so I'm excited for what you guys pump out next.
There are far more in-depth responses in this thread that can provide you the technical feedback. As a healer main in ESO, WoW and FFXIV, my perspective when looking at Cleric is based on my experiences with Sage in FFXIV, Preservation Evoker on WoW, and Templar in ESO. These three healing classes (or specs) are drastically different from each other, not just because they're from different games, but because they're facilitating healing through unorthodox mechanics.
Sage swaps between a healing 'stance' and a shielding 'stance' and a lot of your abilities swap effects based on stance. You can throw out your raid wide heal, then swap stances and click the same button and it'll throw out a raid wide (temporary shield) instead. It's a predictive healer. Preservation Evoker heals people with powerful HoTs using charged directionals. Also has a directionally flung shield orb. Templar loves it's AOE channeling heals. They're enjoyable because they're unique. They dig deep and commit all the way with spell identity.
Cleric does not feel unique. It does not feel unorthodox. It does not feel creative. A lot of the kit as it stands right now is effectively just Restoration Shaman on WoW, reskinned as a Holy Priest and I think the 'all the spells look the same' impression is really harming the overall identity tied to Cleric. The feeling of Cleric is weak. (Has nothing to do with number balance). The VFX themselves feel limp. If Cleric is going to be the epitome healer, the foundation of all other healers, then you should be going all out on it's identity. That ground wave heal? It should be twice the size, and twice the brightness. The chain heal? It should be holy beams of light that blind every cave-dwelling Dunir in a thirty foot radius. It feels like the VFX department is playing it safe, and a lot of the spells as a result, felt uninspired and lack identity.
Do I have specific feedback to drive you in a different direction? Not really. I can just tell you how it makes me feel.
P.S. Random extra thought: There don't seem to be any spells that actually directly interact with eachother to create a sense of rotational cohesion. Maybe instead of certain spells overhealing and granting players temporary extra HP, that extra HP is converted in to a free application of Barrier instead, without you having to cast it. That way you feel like you're using an ability without actually pressing the button so that when you do, it feels like it's part of a greater rotation. Maximizing barrier uptime through passive applications while minimizing mana consumption.
->How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Based on what I saw, Cleric is looking great, I love the animations and interesting skills, it makes me want to play it.
->Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Definitely versatility. I think versatility is important for every class, but it is especially important for a Cleric.
->How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't think it really matters as long as it doesn't lock us in place. I think the biggest drawback of charge abilities is that they lock you in place, which can be really bad during boss battles or pvp. My feedback on this is that perhaps rather than holding down and letting go of the key (which ergonomically can tire your fingers out), perhaps it is better to press the skill to start charging it, and then press it again to release it. This also frees your fingers/hand to do other things while charging the skill.
->How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I absolutely love this, I think it is genius, and something I haven't seen in games before. It adds additional dynamic feel to the class and helps ensure that your party doesn't die while you are charging other skills.
->What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I am excited to play as one due to the versatility I saw in the showcase, it was a very interesting take on the cleric archetype with the different variations of skills, charge, insta cast, resource expenditure and the ability to use flash cure during other skills.
->Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
My main concern is the shield skill, which takes out a chunk of your hp...not sure how viable this will be in pvp, since typically in pvp the cleric gets targeted. I feel like like losing a chunk of hp deters me from ever wanting to use the shield.... especially considering that a shield is the typical go to skill when you get targeted as a cleric.
->Additional feedback and suggestions
One thing that clerics in other games struggle with, is doing content solo and having enough dps, also the annoying aspect of having to constantly respec between healing and dps builds. The showcase didn't explore much how the dps aspect of cleric works, so it is difficult to accurately assess this. I just hope you add enough dps to the cleric without having to constantly respec.
I think a good idea to resolve this would be to have all healing skills of clerics to also have the added versatility that when they are targeted on enemies, they will do holy damage instead of healing (though of course not as much damage as pure dps skills). I feel like this would be a good balance for clerics because any skill that you use to do damage with, will go on cd, and therefore means you can't use that skill for healing until it is off cd again. So it makes you decide whether you want to use a skill to heal or do damage with.
Perhaps it doesn't have to be all of the healing skills, but a good number of them. This also means that party play when your party is all topped up, the cleric can contribute to dps, instead of just standing there doing nothing.
Though having said that, this kind of versatility may be planned for other classes, such as the support archetype that may not have as much healing ability as the cleric, so at this stage can't know how applicable this suggestion is.
There was a game I played where one of the healing classes could switch between light and dark mode (in an instant). When in light mode, all their skills would heal/support, and when in dark mode, all their skills would damage/debuff. I loved playing this class, it was so fun and interesting... so perhaps this could potentially be something for one of the cleric subclasses, or one of the support subclasses.
Overall, I really liked what I saw in the showcase
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
- I feel very positive about the Cleric Archetype! The fantasy of the archetype is really coming through and the abilities look fantastic. It is coming across that this will be the primary healing archetype, with Bard to come at a later date but Cleric still shines through. Please continue as you are!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- I think having a mix of both is important. There's nothing wrong with appealing to multiple different playstyles because I feel like if you lean only into one, then you are bound to upset the other camp. You guys are already following this philosophy with your hybrid combat so I don't see why you shouldn't do the same with single and specific uses, and abilities that have versatility. Personally, I love versatile toolkit as it is more engaging gameplay and I can appreciate the added skill cap that comes with it. What I would like to see is it be articulated clearer in the UI. For example with resplendent beam, you could have little dividers in the ability charge bar to visually show how many allied targets you're going to heal as it charges up. I'm aware UI will be iterated on in the polish phase of development but I think having this in mind when developing other versatile abilities, will be good. It maintains the fun and keeps it clear and easy to use for the player.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- It really depends on the Archetype but this post is centred around the Cleric so I'll stick to that. I think that having a handful of abilities with a charge or hold is fine. cleric will also have buff based abilities which are more often than not instant cast. I think the main thing to address is that I feel like it doesn't really matter how many held abilities you have as long as it is complimented by instant cast abilities. Further from that, you don't want the combat to be slow paced. You can have big charge abilities that you do when you've got the time and space in combat but you don't want that to be your only utility in your toolkit. you need weaker instant casts and weapon attacks to build up. For the Cleric, it also helps that you have the second resource. I really really like this and I hope more classes have second resources - it follows the same philosophy of ability versatility.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- It's an interesting mechanic for sure and it can be layered well with other abilities to stack a large heal. I do worry about it being overpowered of course but balance will be, what it will be. Overall though, I think it's a fine mechanic.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- I will say that I don't ever play healer in MMOs but this is the first time I'm interested. The versatility that was shown and the ability to mix it with other Archetypes to make classes is very appealing. Playing against them will be interesting because I feel like they are going to be extremely common. More of the player population will be playing a healing class than in any other MMO before. Group PVE content with a healer on your side who is also a versatile damage dealer is going to make them very viable. On the flip side, playing against them in PVP is going to be an interesting. What I don't want to happen, is similar to what retail WoW is like now. Every class has a heal and every class has abilities that are essentially taken from other classes. This is of course understandable when mixing 2 archetypes because you need elements from both but It's not fun when classes, who in a fantasy world don't heal, have healing abilities. In relation to Ashes, I don't want it to basically become a necessity to pick Cleric as one of your Archetypes because they are the primary healing class. the ability to heal, needs to have a drawback so that purely damage dealing classes don't suffer. Class fantasy is very important and I know Ashes is really proud of the storytelling and roleplaying aspects that will feature in the game. I hope that this is not over looked when balancing happens. This could also be helped by giving archetypes like warriors more opportunity to have life steal effects so they can compete. Just an idea but it's important to preserve the fantasy.
What are your favourite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- WoWs priest has a fairly good fantasy and I'd like to see it built upon in this game. I do feel like the most intriguing parts of the Priest in WoW, stems from the shadow Priest DPS spec. I enjoy this spec a lot but I do think that Priests are "Holy Healers" at their core. Development of this class fantasy would be great, especially since religion will play a factor in AoC. More on WoW, Mistweaver monks are so so fun and versatile. While the fantasy is not very close to that of AoC's Cleric, the kit is really enjoyable to play and should definitely be considered when crafting AoC's staple healing archetype.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- I'm not exaggerating when I say that if you guys keep going down the projected path for the Cleric, it could be the best healing in any MMO that we have had because of it's fun versatility. I just worry more about how healing will be utilised amongst other Archetypes. Having only a select few who can heal gives them importance and value in all content of the game whereas in games like WoW, healers can seem to fall by the wayside in content that isn't instanced PVE. Further, there's something satisfying about being a warrior who can't really heal but you know you're about to tackle an Elite or do some world PVP and you'll need to rely on your own resources through potions and food. It's rooted in the foundations of the genre and to me, a Rogue or a Warrior having a flat instant cast heal is just boring game design. Overall though I really enjoyed the showcase. The Cleric looks like its coming along very well and the other assets look great also (Huge fan of the rhino mount ). Keep up the good work and I look forward to the Node livestream at the end of the month.
Comments
- It looks like good fun. Enough like a traditional Healer-class that it's recognisable, but with some extra damage bits to round it out. Am looking forwards to giving it a good test.
- I thought the skill icons looked cool.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- I like a mix. Variety is the spice of life, and all.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- Depends on the Archetype, I guess. I generally like my Healer skills to be quicker-casting so I'm more responsive in an emergency, but provided the end results are worth the wait, and that I have enough quicker skills for those emergency situations, it's fine.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- It sounds like a powerful Healer function, but I wonder if it's too "hand-holding", like if it's there to try and make up for bad play or too many mistakes using the wrong skills at the wrong times, for example. But honestly, it's the kind of thing that I'd have to try out first before I was able to give any meaningful feedback.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- I love playing a Healer, and I also love helping improve group DPS. This archetype looks to be able to do both effectively.
- It's nice to see some Heal-over-Time skills, am a big fan of those. Might be good to have a few more?. Again, would need to try it myself.
- Consecrating Wave and Divine Flare look like great skills.
- I like that you've put thought into how the skills will flow into each other, like with the winged jump and the close-quarters heal. It's not simply: "Let's give them some skills!", but "Let's give them some skills that they can actually plan how to use together!" It's easy to see that you're all actual gamers
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
1 Good, 1 Fine, 1 Bad:
- Guild Wars 1 had a nice Healer system. Loads of skills to choose from that do a lot of different types of support stuff, and also had a Damage tree so you weren't confined to being someone's pet.
- ESO's was reasonable, a little lacking on the skills to choose from, but you were able to perform the healing job as it was needed.
- Star Trek Online's was somewhat disappointing, and felt lacking in pretty much every area.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- A shame to not see 'Castigation' in the skill list. Hopefully it hasn't been swapped out? Looked like a really useful skill for resource management that also helped to add a little damage to the pot.
- Will be interesting to test out the Divine Infusion to see how effective it will be. Is an interesting concept. Nice to see that you're thinking outside the box of MMO-normality.
Not sure that I can give much feedback as yet until I've tried it out, and have seen how it compares to the Bard skills for a full support deck. But it's looking very good, so far!
I'd had similar initial thoughts, but we also need to consider what the Bard archetype will be bringing to the group. If Bard is going to be doing these types of things as standard, then it stands to reason that the Cleric would have lesser versions of it in their kit.
What a legend. Need him on more stream videos!
I usually don’t play a pure healer class, but looks pretty good.
-Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
As long as abilities are well balanced and easy to understand how they work then I don’t mind.
-How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Like the previous question, as long as abilities are well balanced and easy to understand how they work then I don’t mind. For example: instant cast abilities might have shorter range(or cost more mana etc) than held abilities.
-How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Good. But I give this answer based on assuming that skill system in AoC is something like Diablo 2 which means player can’t max out every skill.
-What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I don't play a pure healer class so I don’t really know. But what I can tell is which kind of healer I don’t like, too much healing and mana regenerating that makes fights like 1v1/2v2/3v3 takes forever.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The balance between instant cast abilities and held abilities.
How much the capability/potential does Cleric have to solo play.(and other support Archetypes)
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I really like when some abilities have versatility and can do different things based on context and/or the target. It makes a kit richer without adding extra abilities.
In general I'm not a big fan of having too many held abilities, it's nice to have some impactful skills have a cast time, but if it's too much it can start feeling clunky, hopefully with the cleric specific resource we can chain cast abilities smoothly.
I think it's a very interesting mechanic to be able to use heals in the middle of an other cast. I also need to mention I love the idea of melee healing.
I hope we will have decent UI customisation for the charges count. I didn't find the little numbers very readable in the ability icons corner.
Overall I'm mostly curious about the kind of augments that will be available to clerics, and what kind of augments will be provided when cleric is selected as a secondary archetype. The base kit has a lot of healing spells, while I would expect some more utility/buff/CC and positional skills (ground based or cleric centered Healing over Time?).
I would like to see some spells and features unique to the disciple of a mentor if both are clerics:
- shared mana pool or mana flow between them
- enhanced each-other's healing if they have less than 25% health
- inherit a random mentor skill every 60 sec.
- some interesting ability if one of them dies
- blink to mentor and get 3s damage reduction, applied also with delay
I am really enjoying the direction here. I feel as though the team listened to feedback and branched out on a lot of skills. As a healer player, I was excited to see the changes for A2!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Versatile for sure. This creates an environment for players to make decisions. Do I want to do more dmg or healing. Do I want to spec/specialize into melee build vs ranged. The amount of abilities that are versatile appears to be at a great spot!
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't mind this at all as long as there is diversity between different types of abilities. I would still prefer to see a bit more action based healers vs tab target heals. Smart heals are great too because it does require some thought into which player to heal so the rest/aoe heal will hit players within the vicinity.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
TBH not a huge fan. Great idea, but seems a bit OP. Worth testing, but doesn't seem very fair. I can't think of a game where a healer/support can use an ability while casting/charging up a different ability.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I still flirt between Cleric and Bard. I am a huge support player and enjoyed what the cleric has to offer. Overall the toolkit seems super strong. Even if mana consumption is high for certain strong abilities, I prefer the action based healing vs standing still and clicking/moseover player frames.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
When I think of healers, I have always loved the HoT healing playstyle. Druid in WoW is probably my favorite of all time especially in PVP. I can use some casts to heal my team and then utilize other abilities to impact the battle. I prefer the proactive style vs reactive. I do feel AoC has a great mix of reactive vs proactive spells.
I guess my initial worry is they will be too strong. A2 will be huge. I just think about the tools available and how providing bubbles without a CD or aoe heal that a cast can be essentially instant with divine power. I like the thought so much, just worry they will have tooo many tools available.
I think we have seen enough games where healing comes down to the party being full life or nothing. It makes raid damage unimportant and impactful. Raid wide damage should matter and should be something deliberate from the encounter designer. Not just something they spam out to give healers something to do.
Some pretty high jumps in this one. Is there going to be fall damage? Float down spell from mage or shield from cleric? Or, something along those lines for the classes?
- I think it looks nice and promising!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- Versatile. Absolutely. The more to things the better imo.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- Probably not anywhere half the kit but a good chunk is always nice.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- Love it. Hope there are a ample amount of skills that have the same type of function.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- What they bring to the table and the clashing of animations.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- I love the newest take on WoW's Paladin where they are a conjurer of hard-based light. Also like using the Spirit Weapons that Guardians use in GW2.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- That their animation will look "weird" while wielding a staff. While holding the weapon they were, the current animations look decent. While I love that out weapons don't disappear when casting, I would love if it was kept in-mind how a base animation will looking with ALL weapons in mind.
Also please make sure we point and make use of the weapons we have equipped. I always find it nonsensical when games keep your weapon out but the character never makes use of them as a conduit.
As a suggestion for what I’d like to see:
- there was mention that not all clerics would have all abilities. I’d like to see customization to be able to choose a play style. For example, a choice between a hot mobile healer, a burst healer focusing on cast time heals, or specializing in barriers, etc…
- if those are typical cleric abilities I’d like to see clerics be able to get a lot of abilities from their subclass. Something to enable 2h melee clerics (cleric-fighter), clerics with bows (cleric-ranger), etc…
Favourite healer archetypes:
- druids in general
- Archmage Warhammer
- Warden EQ2 (pre-nurf)
- Bear shaman Conan (pre-nurf)
- magblade ESO
I don't even get some of the combos. Like a skill that makes you run to point black range of a friendly target. And another skill that heals a point blank friendly target. Why are these two skills instead of just one? IMO there is just too many healing skills and options. It seems cluttered.
I'd love to see the Cleric Resource utilized a little more to make it feel more special. it was only tied to one abiliy in a way (Divine Infusion), but the way that DI worked didn't seem to have as much Impact since you cast it AFTER an ability is used. I would suggest you change it to the following:
Once a player builds up enough Light Energy resource, let them select Divine Infusion FIRST, which causes the Cleric to let's say, Glow. Then the Cleric can instantly cast any of the spells. Let the Cleric radiate the energy until they utlize the ability or perhaps for 10 seconds and then it wears off.
Otherwise, I was very pleased. I mained a Priest in WoW and played a Cleric in EQ so I am very excited to see future gameplay.
Also, those God Rays... Love the environments.
1. Mend
The wording of the ability's tooltip felt like it slightly contrasted with the verbatim explanation given by Steven during the showcase. More specifically, it was said that this is a good ability to weave inbetween other heals. However, the tooltip states that consecutive uses of the ability will gain bonus healing. I assume consecutive means "used directly one after another" and not "used after other spells", which implies that the bonus healing will not be applied if used in that way. Additionally, the tooltip further states that each charge consumed after the first will have no mana cost. This is a little confusing as I (personally) am not certain whether this would be something that is active for an entire combat encounter after the first cast, or if its more of a "if you allow it to regain all 5 charges without using it, then the next cast will cost mana again". It would be nice to see how this heal (as well as all the other cleric spells of course) would function in action combat mode. Visually it is just fine the way it is, in my opinion.
2. Deliverance
Lack of info in the tooltip (I expand on this in the "General tooltip suggestions" section as this is an issue with all the tooltips). Love the VFX.
3. Soothing Glow
I think the VFX is a little overwhelming when put into perspective for raids, sieges etc. Perhaps reduce the circling orbs from 3 to just 1 and reduce it slightly in size.
4. Flash Cure
I love the fact that this spell exists and am grateful for it! VFX is good and I like that there is no cast animation for this spell even when it is used by itself as this tracks with how it looks when cast amid other animations.
5. Resplendent Beam
As I mentioned in the "General tooltip suggestions" section, it would be nice to see a midway breakpoint value for this spell, i.e. - "if skill is charged at least halfway, hits 3 targets". I understand that this introduces more min-maxing elements, but it would be quite useful. The amount of healing reduced per target hit should also be indicated in some way. Additionally, perhaps introducing a target prioritizing element would be useful, i.e. - "prioritizes targets with lowest HP%" or "prioritizes new targets" or even "prioritizes targets other than the caster, unless there are fewer than 5 in range". VFX is well done here as well.
6. Bless Weapon
The wording of the ability's tooltip is confusing as it also seems to contrast with the verbatim explanation given during the showcase. The tooltip states that it "applies a mana regeneration buff to the caster". This sounds like the mana regen benefit is given to the cleric casting the spell and not the target with the buff, but the verbal explanation stated the oppposite. Once again, the values for both the mana on-hit and the damage should be mentioned in the tooltip. It might be nice to increase the value of the mana on-hit when a full weapon combo is used, on the last attack of the combo. I.e - if each hit gives 10 mana, maybe the 3rd combo attack gives 30. This will reward players who are completing the combo attack chain. Love the VFX!
7. Judgement
I love the duplicity of this spell and the fitting name choice. It may be nice to base the heal amount and dmg dealt values on target HP% as well. This would mostly improve the damage aspect of the spell because having access to few damaging spells as a healer is already punishing, so having a flat dmg spell would probably feel a bit bad. I love the VFX for this, but think that there should be a visual difference when the spell is being cast on an ally vs. on an enemy. I.e.- keep the current colors for ally target cast, but change it to something else for enemy, maybe orange or pale red. This will be a helpful indicator in PvP.
8. Communal Restoration
The wording of the tooltip contradicts what the spell does. More specifically, it states "Restore health to all party members in range instantly ", however the spell has a cast time of seemingly ~3s (I understand that the intention here is to differentiate between upfront healing and applied HoT, but this needs to be clarified in the tooltip, i.e.- "Restore x health to all party members in range and apply an additional HoT. Allies under the effect of the HoT also gain 10% of their maximum health as temporary HP for its duration"). I think the range should be indicated in the tooltip, even if it is massive (mainly for raids and PvP where positioning matters most). I also think that perhaps it should heal a bit more as a flat amount, but also have a cooldown. Maybe something along the lines of 45s or more, as this spell is quite packed and should not be spammed. I get that its mana cost is quite high, but I feel like that is not limiting enough for such a strong spell.
9. Consecrating Wave
The tooltip should include information about the fact that this is a dual purpose ability like Judgement. It should also indicate the values for both heal and damage, as well as how much each value decreases based on amount of targets hit. I think the range should be displayed in the tooltip and it should have a cooldown, even if it is a short one, i.e. - 1-3s. As for the VFX - I feel like the tooltip for this should say "wave" and not "cone" because 1. its in the name and 2. it looks more like a wave than a cone anyways. Other than that, I love the VFX for this!
10. Divine Flare
The tooltip should indicate how many seconds it takes for the ability to land. I like that the total healing is split between targets. I think the VFX requires a tiny amount of polish as its currently not super clear on when exactly the ability is going to land - there is a small discrepancy between the completion of the animation and when the heal actually lands (maybe ~1s or slightly more) which needs to be clearer. Other than that, I love the VFX for this as well!
11. Barrier
I think the value of HP sacrificed should be indicated in place of where the mana normally is (from my example below in the "general tooltips suggestions" it would be in the top right). Then the tooltip text below should just say "Sacrifice a portion of your maximum health to...". This could also allow for scaling of HP later on with more levels/ranks in the spell (if that is going to be a thing). Love the VFX here as well, but maybe remove the internal yellow circle glow and just keep the outward spherical shape and glow. This is just in case there are any other effects that add a glow to the character model which may clash or overlap with that.
12. Chains of Restraint
I like the VFX, but the outline needs to be a bit harsher. Perhaps the chain can be thicker and darker in color. No other input on the functionality as it seems pretty straightforward.
13. Defiant Light
Some minor things to nitpick about in the tooltip - replace "that" with "the" and replace the 2nd "this effect" with just "it". Additionally, at the end of the tooltip I assume it should say that the spell would heal the target for 25% of their maximum health immediately instead. I like the VFX.
14. Healing Touch
Only gripe I have with the animation for this ability is that the spell is called "Healing Touch", but the animation does not relay that. It would be nice to have the character model reach out to touch the target and maybe even be forced to turn and face the target for this to look better. Honestly, this feels a little strange for the cleric only because it seems to be the only ability that requires them to be in melee range, whereas everything else shown was long range. Perhaps it would be good for the Paladin class, along with hopefully some other melee/short range support abilities.
15. Wings of Salvation
I like the functionality, but again feel that this is not that suitable for clerics considering almost everything else is long range. Perhaps the functionality could be tweaked a little bit where it gives both the target and caster a small barrier and can then be used as more of an escape for the cleric (during PvP or raid mechanics). I noticed that this ability can be used mid-air (shown at the end of the video) - this should be indicated in the tooltip somehow. If falling damage is a thing (I really hope it is!) and if the Mage archetype has a typical ability such as Slow Fall, then the Wings of Salvation can function similarly and be used to mitigate fall damage for clerics by jumping to an ally just before they hit the ground. I would love to see the complete VFX for this when it's ready, but hope it's not too overwhelming.
16. Divine Infustion
To start off, with regards to the Divine Power resource - I feel like there should be significant benefits when holding onto this resource and not consuming it for extended periods of time. Perhaps it gives bonus mana regen in combat as well as some cooldown reduction for all spells, i.e. - 15% cooldown reduction while it is maintained at full bar. I know Steven mentioned that there will be a passive benefit that "amplifies some spell efficacy as a healer", but I feel that the suggestion above impacts clerics as a whole (heals AND dmg) in a better way. I like that this resource fills up in a "heat mechanic" way instead of as an instant gratification value.
In terms of the actual skill which utilizes this spell, I feel like the functionality should be changed. I think instead of it completing the cast of a spell that is already being casted, it should just allow the next spell to be instantly cast to its full potential (the reason I emphasize this is because during the video it is said that this will allow the cleric to finish the cast sooner than normally possible, however this isn't entirely accurate as technically with some abilities the player can let go of the button early to cast the spell sooner to a lesser effect. With the addition of "to its full potential" this now means that the target would get the maximum heal value out of a spell that normally requires a long charge up. I think the details are important in this case). There are 2 reasons for this change: 1. it will force clerics to pay more attention to how they chain their heals (if you use up Divine Infusion, but then end up using Flash Heal or another short cast time heal, then you've wasted it) and most importantly, 2. it will prevent clerics from wasting time casting a spell for a second or two before completing it. I know this is a minute difference, but it will be significant, especially in PvP.
Lastly, in terms of the tooltip, I think the wording will need to be changed slightly - it currently states that "the amount of Divine Power consumed is proportional to the amount of cast time remaining upon activation", however this does not seem to be the case. When I read proportional I assume it means if the spell has 5 seconds left then I spend 5 Divine Power to finish the cast. Therefore the word "proportional" may not be the best to use here. Maybe describe it as "relative to" with the understanding that the cast time is multiplied by 10 - i.e. if the ability has a cast time of 5, then 50 Divine Power will be consumed (this is in accordance with the suggested change of pre-casting Divine Power to make the next ability an instant cast).
17. Smite
Once again, the tooltip is slightly misleading as it states that you deal "instant" damage, however there is a cast time for the spell. I understand the intention behind this is to indicate the difference between the upfront damage and the applied dot, however I feel this should be worded differently for clarity. I.e. - "Smite your target, dealing x [upfront] damage and applying a stack of Burning...". Love the VFX for this spell too!
18. Condemn
Not much to say about this spell as it's pretty simple with an obvious use. Perhaps with additional levels/ranks in the spell (once again, if that is going to be a thing) it increases the target count or the duration. I like the VFX.
19. General tooltip suggestions
- I think it would be good to include things such as "Charges" or "Held ability" on the part of the tooltip where the cooldown, range and mana cost would be displayed. Perhaps "Mana cost" could be shown directly opposite the cooldown, but on the same line (I noticed the "Mana Cost" and "Cooldown" seem to be swapped in some abilities, i.e - Mend & Flash Cure, which can be confusing to keep track of, as it is not uniform). "Charges" or "Held ability" could be shown directly opposite the "Range", but on the same line. This will keep that top utility part of the tooltips uniform in size (2 lines only) and representation of resources/requirements.
- It would be nice to see the healing values in the tooltips, as well as more information on spells that have variable charge or depend on target's HP% at the time. For charged abilities, the minimum and maximum values should be displayed(Tap: heals x value; Held all the way: heals x value), perhaps even a midway breakpoint (i.e. - "if skill is charged at least halfway, heals X value"). For HP% dependancies, League of Legends does this well - i.e. "maximum value gained at 10% hp or lower". I assume this will be polished once the balancing of the abilities is done, but wanted to note it anyway, just in case.
- I think all abilities' range should be indicated in the tooltips. Exception could be the melee heal which could just state "melee" in the range section of the tooltip.
- In order to keep things uniform, it would also be good to have a CD indicator in the tooltips of all abilities. For abilities with no CD, that should be stated simply as "No CD".
20. UI suggestion
- The barrier and temporary hit points values should either be displayed differently to one another (different colour), or should be merged into the same thing as they pretty much are the same thing. I think the value should be displayed by a number that is centered within the section of the HP bar where it is indicated.
- I think the number shown for "charges" on the tooltip icon should be slightly larger and a darker colour as it is a little hard to see at the moment.
The rest of my feedback pertaining to the posed questions and the dev update in general can be found here:
I decided to separate the two for maximum visibility.
Apologies for the long read! I hope at least some of these suggestions are found to be helpful.
As a diehard healer/support main with a bit over a decade of gaming and several mmos under my belt, I decided to stop lurking and actually put in the time to properly relay my opinions of the archetype so far. Overall I am impressed with the progress and admittedly inch further and further away from hopefully cautious and closer to excitedly expectant with every passing dev update. I would like to preface the following lengthy post by saying that I only nitpick out of love and because as a perfectionist, I believe this game could be my dream for MMOs come true and hope to offer whatever support I can to fulfil this dream of mine. I hope you can receive this as constructive suggestions.
As others have already expressed countless times, I love the graphics and design choices thusfar, and am really looking forward to the game itself. I am eternally happy that this project exists and have been following its progress since 2017, and will continue to do so until the game's release in the hopes that it will reignite my passion for MMOs.
I will offer some feedback on the suggested questions for this topic, but would also like to go a bit more indepth with the skills that were displayed further on. Separate comment on this here:
1. How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The highest compliment I can give is that I can most certainly see myself playing (and truly enjoying) a class with cleric as its primary archetype. It fulfills my role and class fantasy, and makes me excited for the opportunity to strategize by both predictively and reactively healing. I only wish we had more information with regards to the variation between each class that involves this archetype and how unique they will feel. I know it was mentioned during the stream that players are not required to pick all of the skills shown, but can rather pick and choose what feels best to them. I also believe (unless I misheard) that it was mentioned somewhere that when we have picked our secondary class we will have access to ~30-40 skills. As mentioned before, I wish we knew how those skills will be affected by the choice of primary and secondary class - how much will it matter which one was selected as primary, will there be any alterations to the archetype-specific skills based on this selection, etc. One of my biggest fears is that to truly make the 64 classes as impressive and special as they sound on paper will require an insane amount of time, creativity and resources. I really, really hope the final product does not resemble the system it drew inspiration from in ArcheAge too much, as that system was flawed and honestly kind of pointless. Due to the abovementioned lack of info, I will stop here with regards to how I feel about the cleric archetype for now.
2. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the versatility you are attempting to introduce in the cleric abilities thusfar and hope that this trend continues with the other archetypes as well. I appreciate that this lets us introduce strategy into our gameplay as healer/support without cluttering our action bars with hundreads of skills that all do 1 thing only. I would even expand this further with things like how Judgement functions as a healing or damaging spell based on target. Perhaps something like, say, a Revive spell which functions as either single target, but allowed while in combat and/or on a shorter cooldown or as an AoE, but only available out of combat and/or on a significantly longer cooldown. The only concern I have is that I suppose if all archetypes were treated fairly (which is, of course, what we would like to see) then that would pose an issue of having to come up with hundreads of unique, multifunctional spells. From a creativity standpoint, this may be a bit difficult to achieve, but I have faith in you guys!
3. How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I think the amount that was showcased was not unreasonable and I had no concerns in regards to this. I have seen some comments of people concerned with the "finger gymnastics" of having to hold down a spell, while using WASD to move and mouse to aim, but I am not too concerned as of yet. I have used these types of mechanics in other MMOs without much of a problem, so I guess we'll have to test this in Alpha 2 to truly feel it out. It will depend on raid boss mechanics how much/frequently we have to move around. I can only see it being a bit of a struggle in the case of PvP, but to be fair that is a trade-off that should be enforced. PvP is about reactiveness and speed of reflexes, so theoretically we should be using faster-cast abilities in PvP situations. This is something that each player will need to strategize for and keep in mind. We have options, so personally I see no issue with the concept atm.
4. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Honestly conflicted on this. From a purely functionality-based point I love the idea of being able to have a fail-safe for those clutch heals. On the other hand, in theory and based on RP, it would feel strange to be able to throw in a quick heal while I am channeling a big one. I would assume that I am concentrating on the channel of the big heal and therefore only able to focus on that. I guess it depends on how much realism you want to enforce (considering "channeling" is a fantasy-related term anyway) when it comes to things like that. Personally, I don't think it would bother me too much.
5. What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I don't want to waffle on and repeat myself too much, so I will just say its mostly the reasons above. The ability to sustain my designated tank or party through a tough fight gives me a sense of fulfillment
6. What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I have played a respectable amount of MMOs is my time as a gamer. My list includes: Aion, ArcheAge, Black Desert Online, Blade & Soul, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter, Perfect World Internation (the MMO that introduced me to the genre and stole years of my life, lol), Tera, V Rising, WildStar, WoW Classic and some lesser ones (in my opinion) such as Forsaken World, Lost Ark, RaiderZ and Vindictus. Out of all of those, I believe I enjoyed playing cleric most in PWI and Tera. Both offered a good amount of damage and healing options, and had a good variety of situational healing skills to choose from. I liked the template AoE heals and ability to pull an ally to yourself from cleric in Tera. I also liked the "bubble" skills from the cleric class in PWI. The concept was interesting - casting a blue bubble to continuously heal, or a red bubble to provide channeling and attack speed, plus some dps boost - both at the cost of mana per second. Unfortunately, in the case of the latter, PWI offered mana charms which would automatically refill your mana when it dropped below 50%, making these skills quite mindless when in use. You only had to worry about the channel being interrupted due to aggro swap, which was highly unlikely anyway.. Overall though, the cleric skills and Sage/Demon variations of them that PWI offered back around 2009-2013 were inspired and to this day, I yearn to find an MMO that offers such unique and interesting abilities. I hope Ashes of Creation can be that MMO
7. Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Aside from my other comment detailing my suggestions for each skill that was showcased, I have some other concerns. (Note: I will be using examples of spells from PWI and Tera, with tweaks suggested by me)
- I feel that the cleric was lacking in self-defense abilities. I feel that there should be a spell which allows them to protect themselves without sacrificing their own HP like in the case with Barrier. Perhaps a sustained toggle shield-type spell which consumes varible mana for each hit they take based on incoming damage. This will make the spell situational, where the cleric has to make a hard choice on whether they can sacrifice a lot of their mana to survive something or try and outheal the incoming damage.
- As I'm sure has already been mentioned by others, I feel the cleric lacked in offensive abilities. I am hopeful that this will be mitigated by adding a secondary archetype of course, but still feel that there needs to be at least 1 or 2 more spells available before then to support the solo player experience.
- I feel that the cleric lacked buffs. Once again using PWI as example, they had both single target and party-wide buffs that improved ally's defensive capabilities, health and mana regen, max HP, move speed and even dmg output. Now, I feel that maybe having a single target and party-wide variant of the same spell is excessive and a waste of action bar slots, so I would suggest only having party-wide buffs on a short cooldown.
- Most importantly, the cleric lacked a cleanse/purify type spell which would remove one or multiple debuffs. I feel like this is a vital part of a cleric's kit which should be included. It would be awesome to have such a spell which is also based on charge time, i.e. - if tapped only cleanses 1 target, if held to full becomes a party-wide cleanse. Alternatively, it could just remove 1 debuff if tapped or all debuffs if held down for ~5s.
- Debuffs - yet again using PWI as example. Clerics were able to apply debuffs to the enemy's physical and magic defense, as well as silence. However, I also feel like perhaps some other archetypes could utilize such debuffs in a more thematically-friendly fashion. I.e - mage applies a magical defense debuff, fighter applies a physical defense debuff, etc. There was one skill that I found particularly interesting (from the PWI cleric) that was a fail-safe with a negative impact on the target. It froze the target for 15s rendering them incapable of taking any actions, while reducing their damage taken by 90%. Something similar would be cool to have.
- Clerics in Tera had a skill called Divine Intervention which allowed them to pull an ally to themselves. While I liked this ability, I also feel like it could be used maliciously to grief and troll people, so perhaps if a similar ability is implemented, it should be restricted to party-members only with an additional gameplay option (in the game settings) where players can have an auto-refuse tickbox just in case.
That is it for the moment, as both of my comments are already incredibly long... oops!
I would like to say thank you to everyone at Intrepid for their hard work and dedication. It shows! It is inspiring to see you guys turning your vision into reality and I cannot wait to finally set foot on Vera as a Cleric main!
I like the pacing, the animations, the mobility, and the span of the toolkit; it all looks very fun and interactive with lots of flexibility and meaningful choices to be made during combat.
I hope that as much of the featured toolkit as possible will be available to the ”general” Cleric without requiring deep specialization, whereas the advantage of the highly specialized Cleric will be more horsepower and more bonus effects to their skills. This is to still provide lots of depth and flexibility even to the hybrid albeit at a lower power-level and with less synergies.
Versatility of a spell provides depth and helps bring about more dynamic gameplay with a higher skill ceiling. I’m all for it. Additionally, the greater the span of possibilities within a certain archetype, the greater are the chances of minimizing drawbacks to bringing more than one of each, indeed making group-forming easier.
How many held abilities? A good mix. In between classic cast time, instants, charged up, and channeled, I would like to feel that I’m dancing, not relying on a rotation, but having free agency that’s resonant and adaptive – something I can vary depending on mood.
Ratio estimate with a good amount being offensive or hybrid:
8-12 classic casts of varying casting-time.
8-12 instants.
4-7 charged up (held).
2-3 channeled (different kind of a ”held” ability).
It seems like you are leaning heavier into instants and away from the classic casting-time, which is also fine.
I like to have crazy ideas, so here’s another one for you:
How about one ability of a new kind; the mechanic is similar to a ”do [something powerful] and skip your next turn” in a card game, for instance: 10 seconds after using the ability you become paralyzed for 10 seconds, or, you become paralyzed for a whole minute but some specific actions of your comrades can chip away at that timer, or the ultimate sacrifice if it’s a really strong spell then after 10 seconds you outright die with no saves from things like Defiant Light, but your very death (if triggered from this ability) is an explosion of radiant energy that damages, heals, and shields, or something.
Alternatively and less dramatic (booo) it could also just lock you out of using a particular school/type of skill for a small period.
It could also be a ”take an extra turn, after that turn you lose the game” kind of mechanic. This might be too crazy though, where you gain faster casting (faster animations for instants and perhaps more charges where applicable) for a short period of time after which you die like above.
Alternatively to dying, but also pretty epic, could be a silhouette of particles departing from you after your zealous craze, while you are forced to your knees panting and unable to move, the silhouette floats forward conferring blessings around it (HoTs, shields, buffs perhaps randomly selected from a balanced pool of options) before it explodes in a radiant blast as described above. This way we get an incredibly exciting ability that’s fresh and with an element of stimulating chance, while we don’t have to worry about incurring consequences of a guaranteed self-imposed player death, though we get a similar sensation when we are paralyzed while our radiant silhouette explodes.
Flash Cure, yeah some ropes to climb player-skill wise and a nimble move to add to the dance is cool. I like the sound effect, but I thought about how you could also convey in the animations when Flash Cure is being used simultaneously with another spell. I’d love to see it subtly reflected, like slowly blinking with your eyes when triggering, slightly bending your knees and leaning forward progressively as you consume more charges. This way (maybe) it could be mixed with the different animations of the spells it would play during, and it would have an animation of its own.
Favorite Cleric archetypes in other games:
Healer in Dark Age of Camelot: Massive healing, single-target and AoE, a few buffs, and an insane arsenal of CC, typically leading ”the train” in RvR scenarios to be the first to mezz the enemy group after which you’d find the right distance to avoid incoming nukes and kite melee whilst tossing out heals and stuns on enemies. So challenging, so scary, and so fun!
Zealot in Warhammer Online: Powerful healer, buffer, and debuffer, with good mobility due to some instant casts while (with the right spec) suddenly finding yourself in the middle of an enemy group doing some unexpected PBAoE (Point Blank AoE) shenanigans.
My brother played a Warrior Priest, and that beast of a class has an incredibly fun play-style being in the midst of combat, crushing foes with great hammers while weaving heals.
More ideas:
• You could embrace different play-styles and accommodate increased strategic engagement regarding the setup and interplay of abilities by developing the versatility of each spell while adding an element of personalization to that: It might be cool to have some ”modular” form of specialization that boost or introduce an element to a spell, enhancing certain play-styles, i.e. HoTs vs. direct, AoE vs. single target, close vs. distance, offensive spell-weaving vs. strictly healing, etc. Implemented on a skill-by-skill basis, ”modular” would mean flexibility and mostly independent of other factors (in contrast to branches where you commit to an extent). A rough example of what I mean is found in ESO where skills can ”morph”.
Yes, I believe that much of the extra flavour of spells will be introduced with the second archetype, good, however I would personally like to see both as layers of customization. That is an intra-archetype specialization + an inter-archetype specialization.
• I would like to see buffs/synergies woven into some spells with effects that are dependent on the primary archetype of the recipient. It would make me thrilled to benefit my comrades in special ways with otherwise the same spells. This would bring more exploration and awe.
It does not have to be just core mechanics, in fact I would love to see some niche mechanics featured in these archetype-buffs, like amplifying a Rogue’s detection skill. I particularly imagine the Barrier spell being useful and balanced to apply archetype-buffs, because it’s a common thing to want to pre-shield, and receiving a shield as a Rogue before you seek out and initiate disarming a trap just makes a ton of sense. Additionally, due to its high cost on the Cleric’s health, it will be a restricted cast thus an infrequent buff, although it unlocks a new play-style where the Cleric will need some primary healing in order to dish out more Barrier buffs. Anyway that’s just a sketch idea to exemplify the general idea.
I realize that you can’t just crank all knobs raising complexity into the realm of chaos, but I do think there is room for more complexity to add to the engagement, diversity, skill ceiling, - and fun. Though I reckon you’re also reserving a chunk of the synergies/buffs for the Bard to bring ;}
• Auras to be juggled as part of a big-cycle rotation. I mean big cycle, like pulsing for thirty seconds, because there is already so much to do in between the different healing spells, damage, and CC.
• I like the idea of the Divine Power resource, though I would love to see a mechanic to further incentivize the spending of Divine Power, so it becomes more integrated and frequently used even when its main function is unnecessary because of non-threatening situations. Something like a minor boost to mana regen comes to mind.
Two particular ideas about two spells’ functionality:
Consecrating Wave:
I like the idea of having the throughput split into damage & healing across targets hit, but perhaps make it heal a bit more the more enemy targets are hit.
We could also extend its range and make the effect scale up with the individual target’s proximity, and/or divide the cone into two parts, and have the farthest part do X while the closest part does X + Y. For example:
Friendly X = a heal. Y = small shield, HoT, or buff.
Hostile X = damage. Y = small debuff.
The dual effect could, of course, also apply to the whole cone while scaling off of proximity.
The idea is to reward the Cleric for the risk taken to get close to the action while also rewarding them for hitting more enemies.
On the flip side, for Clerics that prefer to stay at some range, intra-archetype-specialization could extend the range even further, and the effect could be inverted – thus the challenge for them would be to hit their targets with the wave at the very end of it for maximal effect.
Divine Flare:
While it could be cool – I think there’s something counter-intuitive about a GTAoE heal that sometimes wants to be a single-target heal. It could be cool because it’s a twist on the skillful aspect of its situationally dynamic usage: Here’s a big healing circle, now try not to hit all your amigos! That’s pretty fresh – just not sure if it’s really a desirable dynamic, and I’m not sure if we really need to add more to the friction of being a healer.
I realize that it’s up to the Cleric to estimate if a single-target heal is needed on someone because Divine Flare simply isn’t enough when split – but I think it works against the nature of a GTAoE if it isn’t advantageous to hit more targets. I’m afraid it’s going to sit in between two chairs instead of being good for what's intuitive and expected.
I don’t think this is the right place to emphasize friction between players. There can be a million mechanics that spur conflict and make us skeptic of one another, however, once we’re in a coop party-ally-situation I do not think that mechanics should provide more friction than necessary. Please don’t overclock the inter-allies friction :} That being said, I’m a fan of high skill ceilings, also at lower adventure-levels, thus I’m a fan of deep versatile skills. So I would suggest that a component is added to Divine Flare that perhaps detracts from its desire to be a single-target heal, and nudge it into its natural domain of embracing as many as possible.
You know what would be cool? Since it’s called Divine Flare, there could be a sort of soft CC or debuff (a ”blind” that lowers chance to hit?) on undead hit when the spell goes off. Then the effect could linger a bit like a consecration applying a mild HoT on allies and a slight DoT burn effect to enemies.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for listening to the community.
And thank you for living the dream and making a fantastic game that me and my friends cannot wait to explore!
Cheers!
Very optimistic about the gameplay experience Ashes of Creation may offer it's player, and the longevity of the game.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I really liked the what was shown, but would advice against oversaturating the toolkit with too many flexible abilities. Adding a few core abilities with versatility looks very interessting. Hands on testing would be critical for any valuable feedback however.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Add the hold mechanic where it makes sense. Less is more. I would also suggest you use the entire range of charge-up mechanics (charge up with optimal release window (maybe even with penalties for misses), charge up for increased effect, continous effect, repeated and timed holds, etc).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Very good, keep it! Reminds me of the golden age of Everquest and the purple club.
(For those unfamiliar, in Everquest every player would fall unconscious at zero hitpoints, and death occured at negative 10 hitpoints. The clerics Complete Heal had 10 seconds cast time. Landing a Complete Heal on a tank while his hitpoints were between zero and negative 10 was nothing but luck and foolishness. But it was a minigame for healers stuck in static camps for hours on end with nothing but buffing and some minescule dps. If you were so lucky to land a group with some large orgs MT tanking, you only ever had to drop a Complete Heal every now and then, maybe with as much as 15 minute intervals. The healthbar would change from red to purple when the player was unconscious. These tanks could easily have 6-8k hitpoints, some even more. Hence the name purple club.)
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
A robust and familiar toolkit sprinked with new shinies looks like recipie for success. It looks like a very strong foundation to build the healer subclasses on, with many options for specialization. I am in particular exited to see how much a fighter secondary archetype can exploit and build upon the melee heals already showcased. I truly hope we get more of those.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I played a healer or supportclass in every MMO, from Everquest (1 and 2), City of Heroes, Anarchy Online, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Rift, Saga of Ryzom, Aion, to Elder Scrolls Online, Black Desert Online and New World.
It is hard to pick a favorite. I have the absolute most fond moments from Cleric in Everquest, but I also thoroughly enjoyed Defender in City of Heroes, Trader in Anarchy Online, Defiler in Everquest 2, or Shaman in World of Warcraft and Vanguard.
None of the never games sparked the kind of enjoyment and exitement as the old ones did. It is sad, really, how all the new games failed at the most basic level.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
This class demonstration made me concerned I had made the wrong choice for my starting archetype, and I am now seriously considering going back to my healer roots.
This right here is a gold-nugget! Thank you for pointing this out, @George_Black
I completely agree!
The way I feel PvP should first be showcased is through an actual duel system instead of just flagging up, having some form of consensual PvP first, the easiest is with Duels, have some basic UI elements for it - send duel and accept, this can include group duels as well - but most importantly - I think it's very important for future spot testing to already have CC Breaks / diminishing returns implemented to better represent PvP even at early testing stages, and also have a first pass in balancing and make sure you achieve a longer TTK with equal gear, I hope we get to see that in place before PvP is showcased because even with the "WIP" disclaimer, those elements are very important for first impressions,
you could also follow those duels up with a some flagging and corruption system showcase to include both consensual and non-consensual PvP on the stream, talking about the system and the death penalties,
I feel that would be the best possible way to do this showcase
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The variations in healing options especially the reactive / quick ones are really cool to see. Seems this will be a more active healing style which I love.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Reigned-in variability. I think what youre going for here with the ability to quick-finish hard casts / have abilities that get stronger the longer they are held are great. It feels bad to spec a certain way and to suddenly find your entire kit or a key part of it completely useless. This gives options to be less but still effective.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
absolutely amazing. I only wonder if I can heal a secondary target while hard casting on the first
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
From this showcase - the cleric seems like it not only plays a role with healing but also crowd control via its own direct input as well as synergizing with other classes. This makes it less brainded UI whack-a-mole which I think is good.
I know you guys said not to mention Steven's playing so I wont directly BUT: I truly feel that showcases could properly show off classes better if there was at least additional clips at the end of his own presentation of maybe some pre-recorded team content. Such as clips from Margarets play that she was referencing after the showcase.
The chaos of these fights was actually REALLY awesome but it hurt to see a big chunk of the kit not used when it should be (like, not using the damage + healing wave when enemies were around, not using chains the entire fight, just little things). Steven brings great humor and a different "non-elitest" style to his show cases but Id love to see the classes really SHINE optimally as well just to see the breadth of the class.
Overall - best showcase so far IMO
I had another concern occur to me. While I am really excited on the cast time mechanic making what was normally a boring mechanic more interesting, but I can't figure out how it will exist in a pvp space. This where my first thought is to speed them up like what Lark mentioned earlier. This would naturally speed up cadence of everything which I don't really want to see happen. I like the idea of fights being a little longer to allow for more involved rotations/ramp and skill expression through righting a fight. It gets boring if it is just about who engages first.
I suppose the showcase of abilities has me excited to use them. My want of light armor and excitement for the cast time mechanic are to me my largest concerns and are summarized as, I like what I see but I am having a hard time seeing it exist in one of the biggest parts of Ashes - pvp.
The class is showing potential, although I think it still lacks some other skills a cleric should have, but it is to be expected since it is pre-alpha 2. I guess most of what I ask for is planned for already, but the class obviously needs a revive skill, dispel ability to remove debuffs, and a few buffs (durable ones), at the moment it lacks utility.
I am quite curious how you can build a more melee oriented Cleric though.
The divine power resource is a very good mechanic, and I hope the class gets more ways to play around it. However I feel the amount the player restores this resource is a bit slow the way it is at the moment. In addition to the “on time recovery of divine power” it would be interesting to have a way to get a small amount of it instantly like using a CC successfully, shielding, a debuff would be a good incentive to make sure the Cleric that uses all the archetype potential is rewarded accordingly.
Regarding the abilities, most of them are good the way they are but I think these ones could have some changes :
Deliverance : To get the maximum healing output, the threshold should be at 20% or 15% current HP of the target. I know that this is the mechanic of this skill, but no healer right in his mind would wait for the target to reach less than 10% just to maximize the heal. Any mistakes could lead to the death of the target, especially in unforgiving environments such as PvP or Raids.
Communal Restoration : Increase the health restored or the HOT & remove the temporary health, my reasoning behind that is written below*
Divine Flare : I think that this skill brings too many cons for what it gives in the end. In PvE it might be a fine skill, though the heals are divided so it is not that good. But in PvP, it feels like it gives a target to your opponents.
The only good way of using it might be when a party member is stunlocked, this skill should be changed or give more benefits for the risks it represents in such a case.
Divine Infusion : It would be interesting if this skill had an other effect than just removing the casting time from an ability, maybe empowering a skill giving an additional effect or strengthening the current effect.
Condemn : The casting time is too long for what it does, either change it completely to maybe an instant cast root or slow for 3 or 4s, with a decent cooldown, or add damages to the already existing stun.
Overall a 0.5s less casting time would be very good for the 3s ones.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
For healing & support, I think that more abilities available to choose from for single and specific uses is good. The versatility and “multi-uses” should come from augments. Regarding combat/healing, having some abilities that can do both is good.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
4 or 5 maximum (if the choice is from 30~40 different abilities).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I think that the idea is good, but not properly executed, it was made to be the last resort for the cleric to prevent someone’s death. It should have no charges, have a stronger heal amount, and consume divine power &/or have a long cooldown and lastly consume far more mana for a proper impact on the Cleric and its target.
The way it is now looks like extra heal to me, there is no tradeoff for such ability, just spam it every time you can since the charges come back quickly. Why wait for the target to be low hp, when you can prevent him from being close to death by spamming it.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I cannot say how I would feel like to play against it at the moment since I have yet to see all archetype’s kits to the level of which the Cleric was showcased. But it seems to have decent survivability, I can’t wait to challenge myself to find ways to kill one.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
The cleric from Aion (which the Cleric from AOC showcased here surprisingly looks similar to it), the skill ceiling on this class is pretty deep. A good Cleric can make a whole group survive in desperate situations, depending on his stigma builds he can be very tanky (in the best conditions) and survive focus in pvp and heal his whole group after having absorbed most of the damages, but if he builds DPS, he can burst almost as much as Sorcerers, without giving up totally on healing.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The Divine Infusion seems like it will be one of the core mechanics to master for the player to play as a DPS Cleric. I am curious to see how players will manage to create builds to catch up to other classes' dps.
I also have some concerns regarding these things :
*Temporary Health : I feel like the way this buff is less useful than the regular bonus HP we have in other MMOs, except in a very specific case where the target is getting burst down. By taking a look at the fight at 39:17 >> 39:20 we can see that when Bucky is being hit by the mob, the blue bar from the temporary health decreases and his regular health is not touched until all the bonus is depleted.
The main problem is that temporary health seems to have the same effect as shields, as we can see in the video 44:21.
So this raises the questions, although similar in use, does the shield give another advantage compared to the temporary health ? Shields seem mono-target and last longer, but the barrier ability specifies that it cannot be stacked. Can you have both temporary health & shield at the same time ?
Does HP bonus buffs exists independentely from temporary health ?
Also I feel like a bonus of HP should be merged with the current’s target health, in some MMOs, abilities scale with HP, it would make more sense for the temporary health to work the same, and last longer for a better usage.
Lastly, the temporary health bonus should be also shown in numbers in the target bar. As we saw in the gameplay showcase, the only indicator of this buff is the icon under the target health bar and the blue part that is added on top of it.
The mana regeneration should be increased out of combat.
Wings of Salvation > Chains > Close ranged heal which is an example of cool combos the game needs more of.
If you're gonna use Rakan's E from League of Legends (wings of salvation), I honestly think his entire kit is extremely interesting and worth looking at.
It gives you the agency to play off your own abilities while playing off others. Wings is exactly the type of ability I was talking about when I made my posts about dynamic options.
Maybe you could even allow channels/endlag of abilities during wings of salvation for some extra skill expression, since it seems like cleric mobility will be rare.
Deliverance seems to be really strong - the fact that it still gets the heal off if interrupted seems crazy for pvp.
In general - there were quite a lot of abilities that were simply a different type of heal, and all of them seem pretty easy to use. I would have enjoyed examples of heals that actually required aim (Divine Flare is somewhat a good example) or particularly - more forms of unique utility, as when I think of a DnD cleric, I think of utility...but I know that there are still abilities yet to be shown.
Maybe we could see more single target utility as well - I actually think Leap of Faith (pull your ally) is one of the more fun abilities to steal from WoW.
Overall, I think this was my favorite livestream because of the number of abilities shown, so I'm excited for what you guys pump out next.
Sage swaps between a healing 'stance' and a shielding 'stance' and a lot of your abilities swap effects based on stance. You can throw out your raid wide heal, then swap stances and click the same button and it'll throw out a raid wide (temporary shield) instead. It's a predictive healer. Preservation Evoker heals people with powerful HoTs using charged directionals. Also has a directionally flung shield orb. Templar loves it's AOE channeling heals. They're enjoyable because they're unique. They dig deep and commit all the way with spell identity.
Cleric does not feel unique. It does not feel unorthodox. It does not feel creative. A lot of the kit as it stands right now is effectively just Restoration Shaman on WoW, reskinned as a Holy Priest and I think the 'all the spells look the same' impression is really harming the overall identity tied to Cleric. The feeling of Cleric is weak. (Has nothing to do with number balance). The VFX themselves feel limp. If Cleric is going to be the epitome healer, the foundation of all other healers, then you should be going all out on it's identity. That ground wave heal? It should be twice the size, and twice the brightness. The chain heal? It should be holy beams of light that blind every cave-dwelling Dunir in a thirty foot radius. It feels like the VFX department is playing it safe, and a lot of the spells as a result, felt uninspired and lack identity.
Do I have specific feedback to drive you in a different direction? Not really. I can just tell you how it makes me feel.
P.S. Random extra thought: There don't seem to be any spells that actually directly interact with eachother to create a sense of rotational cohesion. Maybe instead of certain spells overhealing and granting players temporary extra HP, that extra HP is converted in to a free application of Barrier instead, without you having to cast it. That way you feel like you're using an ability without actually pressing the button so that when you do, it feels like it's part of a greater rotation. Maximizing barrier uptime through passive applications while minimizing mana consumption.
Based on what I saw, Cleric is looking great, I love the animations and interesting skills, it makes me want to play it.
->Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Definitely versatility. I think versatility is important for every class, but it is especially important for a Cleric.
->How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't think it really matters as long as it doesn't lock us in place. I think the biggest drawback of charge abilities is that they lock you in place, which can be really bad during boss battles or pvp. My feedback on this is that perhaps rather than holding down and letting go of the key (which ergonomically can tire your fingers out), perhaps it is better to press the skill to start charging it, and then press it again to release it. This also frees your fingers/hand to do other things while charging the skill.
->How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I absolutely love this, I think it is genius, and something I haven't seen in games before. It adds additional dynamic feel to the class and helps ensure that your party doesn't die while you are charging other skills.
->What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I am excited to play as one due to the versatility I saw in the showcase, it was a very interesting take on the cleric archetype with the different variations of skills, charge, insta cast, resource expenditure and the ability to use flash cure during other skills.
->Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
My main concern is the shield skill, which takes out a chunk of your hp...not sure how viable this will be in pvp, since typically in pvp the cleric gets targeted. I feel like like losing a chunk of hp deters me from ever wanting to use the shield.... especially considering that a shield is the typical go to skill when you get targeted as a cleric.
->Additional feedback and suggestions
One thing that clerics in other games struggle with, is doing content solo and having enough dps, also the annoying aspect of having to constantly respec between healing and dps builds. The showcase didn't explore much how the dps aspect of cleric works, so it is difficult to accurately assess this. I just hope you add enough dps to the cleric without having to constantly respec.
I think a good idea to resolve this would be to have all healing skills of clerics to also have the added versatility that when they are targeted on enemies, they will do holy damage instead of healing (though of course not as much damage as pure dps skills). I feel like this would be a good balance for clerics because any skill that you use to do damage with, will go on cd, and therefore means you can't use that skill for healing until it is off cd again. So it makes you decide whether you want to use a skill to heal or do damage with.
Perhaps it doesn't have to be all of the healing skills, but a good number of them. This also means that party play when your party is all topped up, the cleric can contribute to dps, instead of just standing there doing nothing.
Though having said that, this kind of versatility may be planned for other classes, such as the support archetype that may not have as much healing ability as the cleric, so at this stage can't know how applicable this suggestion is.
There was a game I played where one of the healing classes could switch between light and dark mode (in an instant). When in light mode, all their skills would heal/support, and when in dark mode, all their skills would damage/debuff. I loved playing this class, it was so fun and interesting... so perhaps this could potentially be something for one of the cleric subclasses, or one of the support subclasses.
Overall, I really liked what I saw in the showcase
- I feel very positive about the Cleric Archetype! The fantasy of the archetype is really coming through and the abilities look fantastic. It is coming across that this will be the primary healing archetype, with Bard to come at a later date but Cleric still shines through. Please continue as you are!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- I think having a mix of both is important. There's nothing wrong with appealing to multiple different playstyles because I feel like if you lean only into one, then you are bound to upset the other camp. You guys are already following this philosophy with your hybrid combat so I don't see why you shouldn't do the same with single and specific uses, and abilities that have versatility. Personally, I love versatile toolkit as it is more engaging gameplay and I can appreciate the added skill cap that comes with it. What I would like to see is it be articulated clearer in the UI. For example with resplendent beam, you could have little dividers in the ability charge bar to visually show how many allied targets you're going to heal as it charges up. I'm aware UI will be iterated on in the polish phase of development but I think having this in mind when developing other versatile abilities, will be good. It maintains the fun and keeps it clear and easy to use for the player.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- It really depends on the Archetype but this post is centred around the Cleric so I'll stick to that. I think that having a handful of abilities with a charge or hold is fine. cleric will also have buff based abilities which are more often than not instant cast. I think the main thing to address is that I feel like it doesn't really matter how many held abilities you have as long as it is complimented by instant cast abilities. Further from that, you don't want the combat to be slow paced. You can have big charge abilities that you do when you've got the time and space in combat but you don't want that to be your only utility in your toolkit. you need weaker instant casts and weapon attacks to build up. For the Cleric, it also helps that you have the second resource. I really really like this and I hope more classes have second resources - it follows the same philosophy of ability versatility.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- It's an interesting mechanic for sure and it can be layered well with other abilities to stack a large heal. I do worry about it being overpowered of course but balance will be, what it will be. Overall though, I think it's a fine mechanic.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- I will say that I don't ever play healer in MMOs but this is the first time I'm interested. The versatility that was shown and the ability to mix it with other Archetypes to make classes is very appealing. Playing against them will be interesting because I feel like they are going to be extremely common. More of the player population will be playing a healing class than in any other MMO before. Group PVE content with a healer on your side who is also a versatile damage dealer is going to make them very viable. On the flip side, playing against them in PVP is going to be an interesting. What I don't want to happen, is similar to what retail WoW is like now. Every class has a heal and every class has abilities that are essentially taken from other classes. This is of course understandable when mixing 2 archetypes because you need elements from both but It's not fun when classes, who in a fantasy world don't heal, have healing abilities. In relation to Ashes, I don't want it to basically become a necessity to pick Cleric as one of your Archetypes because they are the primary healing class. the ability to heal, needs to have a drawback so that purely damage dealing classes don't suffer. Class fantasy is very important and I know Ashes is really proud of the storytelling and roleplaying aspects that will feature in the game. I hope that this is not over looked when balancing happens. This could also be helped by giving archetypes like warriors more opportunity to have life steal effects so they can compete. Just an idea but it's important to preserve the fantasy.
What are your favourite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- WoWs priest has a fairly good fantasy and I'd like to see it built upon in this game. I do feel like the most intriguing parts of the Priest in WoW, stems from the shadow Priest DPS spec. I enjoy this spec a lot but I do think that Priests are "Holy Healers" at their core. Development of this class fantasy would be great, especially since religion will play a factor in AoC. More on WoW, Mistweaver monks are so so fun and versatile. While the fantasy is not very close to that of AoC's Cleric, the kit is really enjoyable to play and should definitely be considered when crafting AoC's staple healing archetype.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- I'm not exaggerating when I say that if you guys keep going down the projected path for the Cleric, it could be the best healing in any MMO that we have had because of it's fun versatility. I just worry more about how healing will be utilised amongst other Archetypes. Having only a select few who can heal gives them importance and value in all content of the game whereas in games like WoW, healers can seem to fall by the wayside in content that isn't instanced PVE. Further, there's something satisfying about being a warrior who can't really heal but you know you're about to tackle an Elite or do some world PVP and you'll need to rely on your own resources through potions and food. It's rooted in the foundations of the genre and to me, a Rogue or a Warrior having a flat instant cast heal is just boring game design. Overall though I really enjoyed the showcase. The Cleric looks like its coming along very well and the other assets look great also (Huge fan of the rhino mount