[quote quote=16717]Carebears. Carebears are everywhere!!!
Joking aside. I’m a PKer. I find pleasure in PvP and game warfare. The best parts to Guild Wars2, Elder scrolls, Archeage, etc Are the PvP battles.
That being said. I dislike the AMOUNT of debuffs and penalties that I’d say are UNFAIR to me as a PvPer.
BUT that being said. I’m not complaining. Nor are alot of the PvPers in these forums and who are going to this game which may infact out number you.
[/quote] At least you have a open mind unlike a lot of other die hard pvpers I've seen posting. Pretty sure the reason they're going with this system is when it comes down to it most mmo players don't enjoy forced pvp. All you have to do is look at a game like wow for proof of this. If you look at the server population balance on pvp servers most of them are very one sided either horde or alliance because players get sick of being ganked when they're not in the pvp mood. I myself enjoy pvp sometimes but I also enjoy the freedom to quest and explore some without getting ganked every five minutes if I'm not in a pvp mood.
when it really comes down to it though there's not really much point in ganking in ashes (assuming I understand the systems like I think I do) why would anyone waste their time running around killing random players for zero profit when you can raid a caravan and gain loot for your effort? Why waste your time killing some random pleb who most likely a total pvp noob when you can challenge yourself and try to take down the town mayor and gain power and influence in the world?
One thing I do hope this game has is pvp world bosses ( not all world bosses only a few of them being this way) I think it would be fun having a boss that spawned every 6 hours or so that only one group would be able to kill. Said boss would do very little dps but would have a large health pool. Only the first group to tag the boss would be able to loot him but if all members of that group die then its health resets and becomes free to be tagged again creating incentive groups of players to fight one another over the boss
ya know..I used to have an awful connection and feared PvP and one day I said F*** it in WoW as a druid and started going by myself with no friends and yes I died a lot but at a point you stop caring about the smack talk and you try to figure out how not to die and choose skills to aid you in that.Now I cant see my self enjoying an MMO without PVPn. There have been some awesome times when I came out of a sure death scenario on top and others where I ate it miserably but it all makes for good memories. If you don't know how to PvP start out with some shield and health skills..pots and some escape skills..some times running away successfully is the truest form of revenge.
[quote quote=16870]If you don’t want to be a victim then you can lead the assault <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
Just saying, it’s not a pick up or shut up sort of deal but you could expand your interests, if even to just get your feet wet.
[/quote] Agreed. and I've never been one to attack initially..I like the other player to think they have the advantage and Ill spend quite some time studying other classes skills to figure out their openers and my counters.Its quite exhilarating. Now , I usually travel with a friend and luckily he chooses classes that I don't really have an interest in so we play off each other.Luckily we are way passed the "why the f*** did you let me die??!!" point LOL
The games you've mentioned did not fail because of their open world PvP, there were other factors that played a huge role in the failure of the game. Archeage and Black Desert Online both saw a decline in their player based due to the cash shops. Archeage really suffered a loss of many players due to the land grab and the hacks that gave players a huge advantage in acquiring land. Ashes of Creation is about risk and reward, there is no risk if your only enemy is a mob. A game can do well if they just find a balance between both sides. Getting killed a couple of times by another play should not deter your enjoyment of the game or your happiness because honestly if it does you may want to re-evaluate your emotions and mentality. Maybe it is because I come from Lineage 2, but a player could literally kill me 100 times in one day and it would not deter my desire to play the game. You die, you move on. Don't even say a word to the person who killed you, it fuels the fire and makes them want to keep doing it. Also, get friends to help you. Have a short PvP war and see what happens. Steven has mentioned many times this game will not cater to those who want to keep killing players over and over again as there will be harsh penalties for doing so. The bounty system will also help with this as I am sure there will be a number of players who will be excited to help those who are being ganked.
I dislike PvP for many of the reasons stated before this post. I am a HUGE fan of PvE, I am still playing Skyrim for that reason. I hope my view will help those who are thinking of not playing due to PvP. This will be the first PvP game I have played in a long time, like 15 or so years, because of bad experiences in those environments.
I am looking at this as a chance to be a survivalist and experience a TRUE PvE experience. My character might be "ganked" because someone is bored, someone mistook me for someone else, or because someone just really, really, loves PvP. Ok, that's not my fault, but my character, living in that world, has to realize that sometimes death will be upon them for no reason and with no warning. To me, as I have come to look at it due to my desire to play this game, it would be no different than accidentally wandering into an area that was way above my level and being slaughtered in one hit. The only difference is at least here, hopefully, someone on the other side enjoyed it as opposed to an NPC/Creature scripted to do it.
I know that won't change many, if any, minds. But, I think it is a different way of looking at it as opposed to "some random guy killed me because he could, this game sucks." <- nobody has actually said that yet.
As for those PvPers who are willing to kill a stranger that they don't know and enjoy ruining their time because it makes them happy or just 'cause... I assume they have other issues. <- again, nobody here has claimed they do that either.
Me and many of my friends are also waiting for an official statement about PvE servers during the Kickstarter. Hopefully they will announce them, they would be getting shitloads of money. The sooner they announce, the more millions they will get!
I'm not sure how this game could even work with PvE servers since attacking nodes is a huge part of the equation.
From what I've read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don't find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren't working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn't seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then.
[quote quote=16936]I’m not sure how this game could even work with PvE servers since attacking nodes is a huge part of the equation.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then.
[/quote]
This is how I see it also. I'm very much a pve player who has nothing good to say about pvp due to my past experiences with it. That being said I truly believe Intrepid will make both options viable. As much I hate being ganked constantly, I reckon ashes corruption system will help a lot in cutting down on unwanted/uneeded attacks. This might be the first mmo I'm going to play that I actually won't mind the pvp aspects in game. I think I'll probably enjoy protecting my node, house etc as I would have worked hard to contribute to its growth. As they've said constantly, both pvp and pve need each other for the whole node system to work so It doesn't seem possible to have separate servers. I'm really excited at the possibilities and think we'll have a game that will cater to both types of player, something I've been waiting for, for a long time :)
[quote quote=16881]Archeage really suffered a loss of many players due to the land grab and the hacks that gave players a huge advantage in acquiring land. Ashes of Creation is about risk and reward, there is no risk if your only enemy is a mob. A game can do well if they just find a balance between both sides. Getting killed a couple of times by another play should not deter your enjoyment of the game or your happiness because honestly if it does you may want to re-evaluate your emotions and mentality. Maybe it is because I come from Lineage 2, but a player could literally kill me 100 times in one day and it would not deter my desire to play the game. You die, you move on. Don’t even say a word to the person who killed you, it fuels the fire and makes them want to keep doing it. Also, get friends to help you. Have a short PvP war and see what happens. Steven has mentioned many times this game will not cater to those who want to keep killing players over and over again as there will be harsh penalties for doing so. The bounty system will also help with this as I am sure there will be a number of players who will be excited to help those who are being ganked.[/quote] Yeah. I refused to play AA due to the landgrab and mega-guild domination - I'm mildly concerned about that for AoC. But, I also didn't play AA because it's too PvP-centric. Some people don't mind eating fish eyes and chicken feet and chittlins. Some people don't mind PvP combat. Different people have different tastes.
"Getting friends to help you" is not a solution for people who don't want to engage in PvP combat. Not wanting to engage in PvP combat is not simply a fear of losing a battle with another player. Rather it's about being forced into an activity you don't want to participate in. Doesn't necessarily matter who wins - although winning is better than losing.
Bounty system does not at all help. Once your forced (or pressured) into PvP combat, the damage is already done."Doesn't really matter what happens afterwards.
[quote quote=16936]I’m not sure how this game could even work with PvE servers since attacking nodes is a huge part of the equation.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then. [/quote] Players attacking the nodes maintained by other players is not a huge part of the equation. It can be for those players who enjoy attacking and competing against other players.
Carebears are going to want to strive to support other players while attacking whatever NPC threats the nodes toss into the world for players to combat.
[quote quote=17015]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/3/#post-16936" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div> I’m not sure how this game could even work with PvE servers since attacking nodes is a huge part of the equation.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then. </blockquote> Players attacking the nodes maintained by other players is not a huge part of the equation. It can be for those players who enjoy attacking and competing against other players.
Carebears are going to want to strive to support other players while attacking whatever NPC threats the nodes toss into the world for players to combat.
[/quote] Since there can only be 5 Metropolises on a server, how would that play out in a non pvp server?
This game cannot really have a PvE server due to the nature of how the node system works. But it can have a simple PvP toggle for those that dont care for it. If they are going to the lengths of trying to create a mechanic to discourage griefing and mindless PK's then clearly they know how game ruining it can be, so why bother trying to discourage it? Why not just allow it to be toggled off completely?
They are releasing a game where they themselves are creating the single biggest hit to their potential income. There are far more PvE'ers than PvP'ers in the mmorpg player base. The PvP sieges and caravans are fine. Open world PvP between consenting parties is fine. But why exclude the largest portion of the player base by refusing to make PvP optional? Who does that benefit?
[quote quote=16901] I am looking at this as a chance to be a survivalist and experience a TRUE PvE experience. My character might be “ganked” because someone is bored, someone mistook me for someone else, or because someone just really, really, loves PvP. Ok, that’s not my fault, but my character, living in that world, has to realize that sometimes death will be upon them for no reason and with no warning. To me, as I have come to look at it due to my desire to play this game, it would be no different than accidentally wandering into an area that was way above my level and being slaughtered in one hit. The only difference is at least here, hopefully, someone on the other side enjoyed it as opposed to an NPC/Creature scripted to do it.[/quote] My Bartle score is Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0% The first thing I do when I gain a new level is explore as far as I can go before running into skull-conned mobs. Even then I am able to escape from skull-conned mobs 98% of the time. Primarily because they will stop chasing me at some point which I can calculate. For instance, crossing back over the zone line. Players attacking players are more ruthless than that.
I've got 20 years of tactics that work for avoiding combat with mobs. None of which work well against players. I enjoy PvP combat when I'm in the mood for PvP combat. And I hate PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. Just as I enjoy harvesting when I'm in the mood to harvest and hate harvesting when I'm not in the mood to harvest. Of course, other players cannot force me to harvest - the only way to even try to do that would entail forcing me into PvP combat.
I'm not particularly worried about accidentally wandering into an area way above my level. As an Explorer, I'd be constantly looking out for that. Couldn't really happen to me accidentally in a way that I wouldn't be prepared to jump back over the zone line.
My issue with PKers is when I'm minding my own business gathering herbs in a space with mobs I know I can easily deal with and some asshat players decide they want to fight me. Again, that is especially heinous when their actions can cause me to lose the loot I've been working 20 minutes to gather and also cause me to accrue xp debt. And it's compounded when the reason I'm even able to be attacked is because I'm still flagged from having defended my village 20 minutes ago. "If you don't want to PvP, why are you flagged for PvP??" I just want to gather my quota of herbs and log out, but now some asshat has added extra time to my play session just dealing with the confrontation/battle itself, forced me into an activity I'm not in the mood for and potentially added 20 minutes to my play session if I have to re-acquire stolen loot and have accrued xp debt.
Same deal if I'm baking goodies at my freehold to share with passersby and some asshat chooses to force me into combat and steals whatever loot. Their five minutes of fun translates into 30+ minutes of tedium for me as I'm forced to recoup my losses - especially if corpse/ghost runs add to that time.
My Killer rating is 0%. Which isn't entirely accurate. I prefer to avoid combat if I can avoid combat. But, I can be willing to kill if that's what I have to do, but the killing is rarely fun for me. So, even if I win the battle with the PKers, I'm still going to be in a foul mood that I was forced to engage in an activity I didn't want to. And I then have to worry about being flagged as a combatant for however long that lasts. Also, problematic if I feel forced to find a safer gathering spot that has the resources I want.
In this Friday's stream the devs lauded how non-combatants can aid PvP battles indirectly by supplying food or mounts to the combatants. But, the thing PvP lovers can't seem to grasp is that if I am anti-war, I'm not going to want to support the war. I'm not going to want to supply the combatants with weapons and vehicles, etc. PvP lovers seem to think that PvP haters are just too scared of dying or to weak or to unskilled to win. When really, many simply don't want to have anything to do in any way with players killing other players. And I bet there are quite a few people like that hoping for some PvE servers where they can completely avoid anything associated with PvP combat.
Despite having a Killer 0% score, I do actually enjoy PvP combat sometimes. But, that's typically just as the byproduct of protecting a village/town/city from a siege or some other overarching goal. What I like about PvP combat in the Ashes of Creation design is that AoC should be chock full of those overarching objectives. I won't be attacking players because I find attacking players to be fun - rather I'll be attacking players when they are an obstacle for some other objective. And, being killed by other players is more acceptable to me if they actually have a conflicting objective beyond, "I'm a villain; not a hero." or "Vek killed my parents, all Vek are KOS to me."
PvP haters will likely continue to hate any involvement with PvP combat. As a PvP-sometimes guy, I'm expecting to enjoy the PvP conflict and intrigue inherent in AoC. Hopefully, there will plenty of character skills that help characters avoid/escape combat when they wish to.
[quote quote=17022] Since there can only be 5 Metropolises on a server, how would that play out in a non pvp server? [/quote] I don't understand the question. It will play out that the carebears cooperatively build 5 Metropolises on the server.
[quote quote=17023]This game cannot really have a PvE server due to the nature of how the node system works. But it can have a simple PvP toggle for those that dont care for it. If they are going to the lengths of trying to create a mechanic to discourage griefing and mindless PK’s then clearly they know how game ruining it can be, so why bother trying to discourage it? Why not just allow it to be toggled off completely?[/quote] How does the node system work such that a PvE server is impossible? Completely toggling off PvP combat on a server should result in a PvE server. Yes.
(The devs are developing a game... the verdict is still out on whether they will be successful enough to release it. Even the devs admit that in their KS refund offer.)
[quote quote=16932]Me and many of my friends are also waiting for an official statement about PvE servers during the Kickstarter. Hopefully they will announce them, they would be getting shitloads of money. The sooner they announce, the more millions they will get!
[/quote]
You're waiting time then because they will not have PVE servers no matter what. They already said that AND they cannot have PVE servers with the nature of the game. And No they wouldnt get a shit load of money they would make money for 2 months then everyone on the PVE server would get bored because there wouldnt be any content for them because this game is designed for PVP.
[quote quote=17039]You have a link or post where the devs said they won’t have PvE servers?
[/quote]
Watch the videos they said it in the videos. Not only have that said something about PVE servers, they are designed the game be have a changing world through PVP. SO how will PVP happen on a PVE server. It just does not work because the vast majority of PVE servers will have all PVE players on it. This Same Demand was asked of ArcheAge to have PVE servers, ArcheAge still does not have PVE servers. Games that are designed like this cannot take the PVP out.
[quote quote=17040] Watch the videos they said it in the videos. [/quote] I have watched the videos. That's not at all helpful. But, Google is our friend. I found a dev quote.
“PvP is the catalyst we use for change to occur in the world. While I appreciate the desire of some players not wanting to participate in that mechanic, I’d be lying if I told you that you could COMPLETELY avoid it. Is it possible to play and avoid PvP? Absolutely, you can focus on PvE, crafting, gathering, city building, farming, animal husbandry, home building, raiding. I want Ashes to be an astounding environment for our players to explore and interact with. To challenge you.” – Steven (from discord)
[quote quote=17042]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/4/#post-17040" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> Watch the videos they said it in the videos. </blockquote> I have watched the videos. That’s not at all helpful. But, Google is our friend. I found a dev quote.
“PvP is the catalyst we use for change to occur in the world. While I appreciate the desire of some players not wanting to participate in that mechanic, I’d be lying if I told you that you could COMPLETELY avoid it. Is it possible to play and avoid PvP? Absolutely, you can focus on PvE, crafting, gathering, city building, farming, animal husbandry, home building, raiding. I want Ashes to be an astounding environment for our players to explore and interact with. To challenge you.” – Steven (from discord)
[/quote]
Yea there are a few hundred Steve quotes out there that I am personally tired of looking. I think its best if people go to the Google docs or Videos.
Again, just saying look at the videos is not helpful when people ask for a link. "I'm sure Steven said it somewhere just research everything he's ever said to find it." Might as well say nothing at all. Or better: "Nope. I don't have a link."
Not that big of a deal. Google search found it in this case.
[quote quote=17035]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/3/#post-17023" rel="nofollow">OneShot wrote:</a></div> This game cannot really have a PvE server due to the nature of how the node system works. But it can have a simple PvP toggle for those that dont care for it. If they are going to the lengths of trying to create a mechanic to discourage griefing and mindless PK’s then clearly they know how game ruining it can be, so why bother trying to discourage it? Why not just allow it to be toggled off completely? </blockquote> How does the node system work such that a PvE server is impossible? Completely toggling off PvP combat on a server should result in a PvE server. Yes.
(The devs are developing a game… the verdict is still out on whether they will be successful enough to release it. Even the devs admit that in their KS refund offer.)
[/quote]
Its not impossible, but it would make for a rather shallow experience. The game world is built and content is created through the interaction of the build and destroy mechanics of pve and pvp. Replacing those interactions with NPC equivalents would bypass motive. The AI would have to be so incredibly advanced and intricate enough to destroy and rebuild based on some kind of reasoning and desire. If you cannot see how players are required for both sides of this system, then i cannot really explain it to you tbh.
I am a PvE player. I'll PvP if i want to. I am definitely not going to advocate for a forced PvP environment, but i do understand the areas of the game that need the PvP, it just needs to be optional imo.
Shallow experience is subjective. I disagree that the world is built and content is created through the interaction of PvP combat. Players can work together to destroy stuff, it doesn't have to be versus at all. The interactions wouldn't be replaced by NPC interactions, rather the players on the server would focus on combating NPCs and working together to complete what might be considered PvP objectives on a PvP server.
If the PvE server feels static because the a Metropolis has lasted too long, the players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the Metropolis. Destroying a Metropolis is still primarily PvP. I'm pretty sure that AoC content is not driven by how many players kill other players.
Especially obvious if you look at it from a "theatre RP" perspective where the buildings etc are basically just props. Actors in a movie don't actually kill each other but they can blow up props.
[quote quote=17061]Shallow experience is subjective. I disagree that the world is built and content is created through the interaction of PvP combat. Players can work together to destroy stuff, it doesn’t have to be versus at all. The interactions wouldn’t be replaced by NPC interactions, rather the players on the server would focus on combating NPCs and working together to complete what might be considered PvP objectives on a PvP server.
If the PvE server feels static because the a Metropolis has lasted too long, the players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the Metropolis. Destroying a Metropolis is still primarily PvP. I’m pretty sure that AoC content is not driven by how many players kill other players.
[/quote]
Yes, players can work together to destroy stuff. Yes, players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the metropolis. But there will be players that do not want this to happen so will want to stop them. You just described the basis for the siege PvP.
Nobody is saying AoC content is driven by how many players kill each other. It is driven by the destruction of nodes and the rise of other nodes. Different players will be invested in different nodes. If you think on a PvE server everyone is going to be in agreement to destroy a particular node you are mistaken. There will be a whole load of players invested in that node. If they dont have the option to defend what they spent the last 3 months (example) building up, then whats the point?
Again... The game does need PvP for certain systems. It does not need forced open world PvP
If people don't like pvp they need to just find something else to play. PVP is in the game and is a major focus of the games mechanics and world. Crying about how you want the game to cater to one specific play style is not going to make them change an entire system just for you. Meaningful open world pvp adds a lot of content for everybody. The constant crying and entitlement is nauseating...
The game is in early development. If ever we were to voice our concern the time is now.
Each side of this discussion has a legitimate concern. But I want to state both obvious and not so obvious facts:
1. PvP is a legitimate game style in which ever MMO ever made should include in some way, shape or form.
2. PVE content the only reason most (not all) games are successful. It's the driving force behind long term retention in any game.
3. PVE players being forced into a PvP fight will deplete your retention substantially.
4. In order for a PvP player to get a kill he has to kill a player. In many cases this is not a consensual fight.
5. PvP penalty systems only hurt the PvP players retention. They are too steep for PvP players and not steep enough for PVE players. Karma in BDO and jail in ArcheAge did very little (if anything) to curb the desire to PK people. PvP penalty systems just don't work!
6. There are tens of millions of gamers seeking a dragon sword and board game that is new, not a cartoony game and not an anime game. The bulk of them are PVE players.
7. Black Desert Online lost millions of potential customers due to a forced PvP system. Pretty much ever game forum was packed with "I won't play a game where I'm forced to PvP" threads.
8. PvPers (not all of them) are very toxic. They use terms like "git gud", "carebear", "weeb", "scrub" etc. They tear down communities, not build them. They insult and shit talk. PVE players rarely do this. When they do it's typically high end raid guilds (EverQuest 2).
9. Player A wants to play a game and do "X" because it's what they love. They want to spend 18 hours a day gathering trees and delivering them to point B. Why would you hinder their gameplay by allowing them to be PK'd? That's a dev designed issue. You've just pissed off 75% of all gamers (speculative number).
10. Since you already know that one play style will conflict with the other why wouldn't you separate them? This makes no sense to me. No good MMO's have come out in 10 years for PVE players. Not a one. You obviously don't want to be successful.
Pro Tip: PVE players and reasons to play alts are what make gaming companies successful. Restrict one or the other and you've already set yourself up for failure.
You can't win. Either you're entitled because you want something or you're privileged because you have something. I guess we will all have to be destitute.
I just hope it doesn't turn into something like eve where vast areas are out of bounds. If guilds are going to pk anyone near their node, huge swathes of land could end up out of bounds for general pve.
[quote quote=17068]Again… The game does need PvP for certain systems. It does not need forced open world PvP[/quote]
I can agree with this. SWG had a flagging system that didnt force PVP. BUT it reduced how much PVP was going on because of it. The problem is having Open world PVP will push players to not play solo which happens all to often in MMORPGs. The key is to balance open world PVP with the Corruption system. Most people who will want to outright PVP will flag up and become purple. People who dont will be green and PKers will be red. Red should always be a kill on site. Purples will most of the time be looking to kill other purples they will not be focused on killing Green players. The key is to force players to go directly red that kill green players, this way they are marked as PKers vs Purples who just want to PVP with other Purple players.
I do agree that there will be people that will not want to engage in any PVP and maybe this is not the game for them. Maybe we can have a rotating Peace, Contested and At War state like ArcheAge coupled with the the corruption system. During the Contested and At War state Players attacking greens will get corruption. But players cannot attack greens at all during peace time.
There might be a way to reduce the PKers a bit more without completely getting rid of PKing. But leave the Caravan system and Siege systems alone. Another thing we can do is make Non PVP areas like the roads and X distance from the roads. But you go into the Wild you are in full PVP area. The Non PVP areas can go into PVP state with the caravan in the area and during a Siege. Out in the Wild its open season but thats where the Corruption system helps reduce PKing, plus an open bounty hunter system where Nodes can pay to have bounty hunters kill X player in their node.
What I am thinking is balance the system where you cannot attack low level players because the low level mobs will not be in the PVP free areas. This will protect low level characters. It will still put high level characters at risk of PVP. Also if players who kill green go right to red stats could reduce the PKing in the wild but not get rid of PKing. Bounty Hunters and players who attack red players will not get corruption. That might make for a better setup.
Comments
Joking aside. I’m a PKer. I find pleasure in PvP and game warfare. The best parts to Guild Wars2, Elder scrolls, Archeage, etc Are the PvP battles.
That being said. I dislike the AMOUNT of debuffs and penalties that I’d say are UNFAIR to me as a PvPer.
BUT that being said. I’m not complaining. Nor are alot of the PvPers in these forums and who are going to this game which may infact out number you.
[/quote] At least you have a open mind unlike a lot of other die hard pvpers I've seen posting. Pretty sure the reason they're going with this system is when it comes down to it most mmo players don't enjoy forced pvp. All you have to do is look at a game like wow for proof of this. If you look at the server population balance on pvp servers most of them are very one sided either horde or alliance because players get sick of being ganked when they're not in the pvp mood. I myself enjoy pvp sometimes but I also enjoy the freedom to quest and explore some without getting ganked every five minutes if I'm not in a pvp mood.
when it really comes down to it though there's not really much point in ganking in ashes (assuming I understand the systems like I think I do) why would anyone waste their time running around killing random players for zero profit when you can raid a caravan and gain loot for your effort? Why waste your time killing some random pleb who most likely a total pvp noob when you can challenge yourself and try to take down the town mayor and gain power and influence in the world?
Just saying, it's not a pick up or shut up sort of deal but you could expand your interests, if even to just get your feet wet.
Just saying, it’s not a pick up or shut up sort of deal but you could expand your interests, if even to just get your feet wet.
[/quote] Agreed. and I've never been one to attack initially..I like the other player to think they have the advantage and Ill spend quite some time studying other classes skills to figure out their openers and my counters.Its quite exhilarating. Now , I usually travel with a friend and luckily he chooses classes that I don't really have an interest in so we play off each other.Luckily we are way passed the "why the f*** did you let me die??!!" point LOL
Archeage and Black Desert Online both saw a decline in their player based due to the cash shops. Archeage really suffered a loss of many players due to the land grab and the hacks that gave players a huge advantage in acquiring land.
Ashes of Creation is about risk and reward, there is no risk if your only enemy is a mob. A game can do well if they just find a balance between both sides. Getting killed a couple of times by another play should not deter your enjoyment of the game or your happiness because honestly if it does you may want to re-evaluate your emotions and mentality.
Maybe it is because I come from Lineage 2, but a player could literally kill me 100 times in one day and it would not deter my desire to play the game. You die, you move on. Don't even say a word to the person who killed you, it fuels the fire and makes them want to keep doing it. Also, get friends to help you. Have a short PvP war and see what happens.
Steven has mentioned many times this game will not cater to those who want to keep killing players over and over again as there will be harsh penalties for doing so. The bounty system will also help with this as I am sure there will be a number of players who will be excited to help those who are being ganked.
I am looking at this as a chance to be a survivalist and experience a TRUE PvE experience. My character might be "ganked" because someone is bored, someone mistook me for someone else, or because someone just really, really, loves PvP. Ok, that's not my fault, but my character, living in that world, has to realize that sometimes death will be upon them for no reason and with no warning. To me, as I have come to look at it due to my desire to play this game, it would be no different than accidentally wandering into an area that was way above my level and being slaughtered in one hit. The only difference is at least here, hopefully, someone on the other side enjoyed it as opposed to an NPC/Creature scripted to do it.
I know that won't change many, if any, minds. But, I think it is a different way of looking at it as opposed to "some random guy killed me because he could, this game sucks." <- nobody has actually said that yet.
As for those PvPers who are willing to kill a stranger that they don't know and enjoy ruining their time because it makes them happy or just 'cause... I assume they have other issues. <- again, nobody here has claimed they do that either.
From what I've read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don't find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren't working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn't seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then.
[/quote]
This is how I see it also.
I'm very much a pve player who has nothing good to say about pvp due to my past experiences with it. That being said I truly believe Intrepid will make both options viable. As much I hate being ganked constantly, I reckon ashes corruption system will help a lot in cutting down on unwanted/uneeded attacks. This might be the first mmo I'm going to play that I actually won't mind the pvp aspects in game. I think I'll probably enjoy protecting my node, house etc as I would have worked hard to contribute to its growth.
As they've said constantly, both pvp and pve need each other for the whole node system to work so It doesn't seem possible to have separate servers. I'm really excited at the possibilities and think we'll have a game that will cater to both types of player, something I've been waiting for, for a long time :)
Ashes of Creation is about risk and reward, there is no risk if your only enemy is a mob. A game can do well if they just find a balance between both sides. Getting killed a couple of times by another play should not deter your enjoyment of the game or your happiness because honestly if it does you may want to re-evaluate your emotions and mentality.
Maybe it is because I come from Lineage 2, but a player could literally kill me 100 times in one day and it would not deter my desire to play the game. You die, you move on. Don’t even say a word to the person who killed you, it fuels the fire and makes them want to keep doing it. Also, get friends to help you. Have a short PvP war and see what happens.
Steven has mentioned many times this game will not cater to those who want to keep killing players over and over again as there will be harsh penalties for doing so. The bounty system will also help with this as I am sure there will be a number of players who will be excited to help those who are being ganked.[/quote]
Yeah. I refused to play AA due to the landgrab and mega-guild domination - I'm mildly concerned about that for AoC.
But, I also didn't play AA because it's too PvP-centric.
Some people don't mind eating fish eyes and chicken feet and chittlins. Some people don't mind PvP combat.
Different people have different tastes.
"Getting friends to help you" is not a solution for people who don't want to engage in PvP combat. Not wanting to engage in PvP combat is not simply a fear of losing a battle with another player. Rather it's about being forced into an activity you don't want to participate in. Doesn't necessarily matter who wins - although winning is better than losing.
Bounty system does not at all help. Once your forced (or pressured) into PvP combat, the damage is already done."Doesn't really matter what happens afterwards.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then. [/quote]
Players attacking the nodes maintained by other players is not a huge part of the equation.
It can be for those players who enjoy attacking and competing against other players.
Carebears are going to want to strive to support other players while attacking whatever NPC threats the nodes toss into the world for players to combat.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/3/#post-16936" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div>
I’m not sure how this game could even work with PvE servers since attacking nodes is a huge part of the equation.
From what I’ve read it seems the developers are keenly aware that a lot of people don’t find getting attacked and killed by another player very fun and that they have a system in place to protect people. It also sounds like they will make changes where necessary if things aren’t working out quite like they had in mind during the alpha. But it doesn’t seem likely that they will change the core design behind their game so, if that is what you are basing your kickstarter pledge on, you should probably just wait until the game releases in a few years and try it out then.
</blockquote>
Players attacking the nodes maintained by other players is not a huge part of the equation.
It can be for those players who enjoy attacking and competing against other players.
Carebears are going to want to strive to support other players while attacking whatever NPC threats the nodes toss into the world for players to combat.
[/quote]
Since there can only be 5 Metropolises on a server, how would that play out in a non pvp server?
They are releasing a game where they themselves are creating the single biggest hit to their potential income. There are far more PvE'ers than PvP'ers in the mmorpg player base. The PvP sieges and caravans are fine. Open world PvP between consenting parties is fine. But why exclude the largest portion of the player base by refusing to make PvP optional? Who does that benefit?
I am looking at this as a chance to be a survivalist and experience a TRUE PvE experience. My character might be “ganked” because someone is bored, someone mistook me for someone else, or because someone just really, really, loves PvP. Ok, that’s not my fault, but my character, living in that world, has to realize that sometimes death will be upon them for no reason and with no warning. To me, as I have come to look at it due to my desire to play this game, it would be no different than accidentally wandering into an area that was way above my level and being slaughtered in one hit. The only difference is at least here, hopefully, someone on the other side enjoyed it as opposed to an NPC/Creature scripted to do it.[/quote]
My Bartle score is Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
The first thing I do when I gain a new level is explore as far as I can go before running into skull-conned mobs.
Even then I am able to escape from skull-conned mobs 98% of the time. Primarily because they will stop chasing me at some point which I can calculate. For instance, crossing back over the zone line.
Players attacking players are more ruthless than that.
I've got 20 years of tactics that work for avoiding combat with mobs. None of which work well against players.
I enjoy PvP combat when I'm in the mood for PvP combat. And I hate PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat.
Just as I enjoy harvesting when I'm in the mood to harvest and hate harvesting when I'm not in the mood to harvest. Of course, other players cannot force me to harvest - the only way to even try to do that would entail forcing me into PvP combat.
I'm not particularly worried about accidentally wandering into an area way above my level. As an Explorer, I'd be constantly looking out for that. Couldn't really happen to me accidentally in a way that I wouldn't be prepared to jump back over the zone line.
My issue with PKers is when I'm minding my own business gathering herbs in a space with mobs I know I can easily deal with and some asshat players decide they want to fight me. Again, that is especially heinous when their actions can cause me to lose the loot I've been working 20 minutes to gather and also cause me to accrue xp debt.
And it's compounded when the reason I'm even able to be attacked is because I'm still flagged from having defended my village 20 minutes ago. "If you don't want to PvP, why are you flagged for PvP??"
I just want to gather my quota of herbs and log out, but now some asshat has added extra time to my play session just dealing with the confrontation/battle itself, forced me into an activity I'm not in the mood for and potentially added 20 minutes to my play session if I have to re-acquire stolen loot and have accrued xp debt.
Same deal if I'm baking goodies at my freehold to share with passersby and some asshat chooses to force me into combat and steals whatever loot. Their five minutes of fun translates into 30+ minutes of tedium for me as I'm forced to recoup my losses - especially if corpse/ghost runs add to that time.
My Killer rating is 0%. Which isn't entirely accurate. I prefer to avoid combat if I can avoid combat. But, I can be willing to kill if that's what I have to do, but the killing is rarely fun for me. So, even if I win the battle with the PKers, I'm still going to be in a foul mood that I was forced to engage in an activity I didn't want to. And I then have to worry about being flagged as a combatant for however long that lasts. Also, problematic if I feel forced to find a safer gathering spot that has the resources I want.
In this Friday's stream the devs lauded how non-combatants can aid PvP battles indirectly by supplying food or mounts to the combatants. But, the thing PvP lovers can't seem to grasp is that if I am anti-war, I'm not going to want to support the war. I'm not going to want to supply the combatants with weapons and vehicles, etc.
PvP lovers seem to think that PvP haters are just too scared of dying or to weak or to unskilled to win. When really, many simply don't want to have anything to do in any way with players killing other players.
And I bet there are quite a few people like that hoping for some PvE servers where they can completely avoid anything associated with PvP combat.
Despite having a Killer 0% score, I do actually enjoy PvP combat sometimes. But, that's typically just as the byproduct of protecting a village/town/city from a siege or some other overarching goal.
What I like about PvP combat in the Ashes of Creation design is that AoC should be chock full of those overarching objectives.
I won't be attacking players because I find attacking players to be fun - rather I'll be attacking players when they are an obstacle for some other objective.
And, being killed by other players is more acceptable to me if they actually have a conflicting objective beyond, "I'm a villain; not a hero." or "Vek killed my parents, all Vek are KOS to me."
PvP haters will likely continue to hate any involvement with PvP combat.
As a PvP-sometimes guy, I'm expecting to enjoy the PvP conflict and intrigue inherent in AoC.
Hopefully, there will plenty of character skills that help characters avoid/escape combat when they wish to.
Since there can only be 5 Metropolises on a server, how would that play out in a non pvp server?
[/quote]
I don't understand the question.
It will play out that the carebears cooperatively build 5 Metropolises on the server.
How does the node system work such that a PvE server is impossible?
Completely toggling off PvP combat on a server should result in a PvE server. Yes.
(The devs are developing a game... the verdict is still out on whether they will be successful enough to release it. Even the devs admit that in their KS refund offer.)
[/quote]
You're waiting time then because they will not have PVE servers no matter what. They already said that AND they cannot have PVE servers with the nature of the game. And No they wouldnt get a shit load of money they would make money for 2 months then everyone on the PVE server would get bored because there wouldnt be any content for them because this game is designed for PVP.
[/quote]
Watch the videos they said it in the videos. Not only have that said something about PVE servers, they are designed the game be have a changing world through PVP. SO how will PVP happen on a PVE server. It just does not work because the vast majority of PVE servers will have all PVE players on it. This Same Demand was asked of ArcheAge to have PVE servers, ArcheAge still does not have PVE servers. Games that are designed like this cannot take the PVP out.
Watch the videos they said it in the videos. [/quote]
I have watched the videos. That's not at all helpful.
But, Google is our friend. I found a dev quote.
“PvP is the catalyst we use for change to occur in the world. While I appreciate the desire of some players not wanting to participate in that mechanic, I’d be lying if I told you that you could COMPLETELY avoid it. Is it possible to play and avoid PvP? Absolutely, you can focus on PvE, crafting, gathering, city building, farming, animal husbandry, home building, raiding. I want Ashes to be an astounding environment for our players to explore and interact with. To challenge you.” – Steven (from discord)
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/4/#post-17040" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
Watch the videos they said it in the videos.
</blockquote>
I have watched the videos. That’s not at all helpful.
But, Google is our friend. I found a dev quote.
“PvP is the catalyst we use for change to occur in the world. While I appreciate the desire of some players not wanting to participate in that mechanic, I’d be lying if I told you that you could COMPLETELY avoid it. Is it possible to play and avoid PvP? Absolutely, you can focus on PvE, crafting, gathering, city building, farming, animal husbandry, home building, raiding. I want Ashes to be an astounding environment for our players to explore and interact with. To challenge you.” – Steven (from discord)
[/quote]
Yea there are a few hundred Steve quotes out there that I am personally tired of looking. I think its best if people go to the Google docs or Videos.
"I'm sure Steven said it somewhere just research everything he's ever said to find it."
Might as well say nothing at all.
Or better: "Nope. I don't have a link."
Not that big of a deal. Google search found it in this case.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/3/#post-17023" rel="nofollow">OneShot wrote:</a></div>
This game cannot really have a PvE server due to the nature of how the node system works. But it can have a simple PvP toggle for those that dont care for it. If they are going to the lengths of trying to create a mechanic to discourage griefing and mindless PK’s then clearly they know how game ruining it can be, so why bother trying to discourage it? Why not just allow it to be toggled off completely?
</blockquote>
How does the node system work such that a PvE server is impossible?
Completely toggling off PvP combat on a server should result in a PvE server. Yes.
(The devs are developing a game… the verdict is still out on whether they will be successful enough to release it. Even the devs admit that in their KS refund offer.)
[/quote]
Its not impossible, but it would make for a rather shallow experience. The game world is built and content is created through the interaction of the build and destroy mechanics of pve and pvp. Replacing those interactions with NPC equivalents would bypass motive. The AI would have to be so incredibly advanced and intricate enough to destroy and rebuild based on some kind of reasoning and desire. If you cannot see how players are required for both sides of this system, then i cannot really explain it to you tbh.
I am a PvE player. I'll PvP if i want to. I am definitely not going to advocate for a forced PvP environment, but i do understand the areas of the game that need the PvP, it just needs to be optional imo.
I disagree that the world is built and content is created through the interaction of PvP combat.
Players can work together to destroy stuff, it doesn't have to be versus at all.
The interactions wouldn't be replaced by NPC interactions, rather the players on the server would focus on combating NPCs and working together to complete what might be considered PvP objectives on a PvP server.
If the PvE server feels static because the a Metropolis has lasted too long, the players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the Metropolis. Destroying a Metropolis is still primarily PvP.
I'm pretty sure that AoC content is not driven by how many players kill other players.
Especially obvious if you look at it from a "theatre RP" perspective where the buildings etc are basically just props.
Actors in a movie don't actually kill each other but they can blow up props.
I disagree that the world is built and content is created through the interaction of PvP combat.
Players can work together to destroy stuff, it doesn’t have to be versus at all.
The interactions wouldn’t be replaced by NPC interactions, rather the players on the server would focus on combating NPCs and working together to complete what might be considered PvP objectives on a PvP server.
If the PvE server feels static because the a Metropolis has lasted too long, the players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the Metropolis. Destroying a Metropolis is still primarily PvP.
I’m pretty sure that AoC content is not driven by how many players kill other players.
[/quote]
Yes, players can work together to destroy stuff. Yes, players can choose to work together to participate in a siege that would destroy the metropolis. But there will be players that do not want this to happen so will want to stop them. You just described the basis for the siege PvP.
Nobody is saying AoC content is driven by how many players kill each other. It is driven by the destruction of nodes and the rise of other nodes. Different players will be invested in different nodes. If you think on a PvE server everyone is going to be in agreement to destroy a particular node you are mistaken. There will be a whole load of players invested in that node. If they dont have the option to defend what they spent the last 3 months (example) building up, then whats the point?
Again... The game does need PvP for certain systems. It does not need forced open world PvP
Each side of this discussion has a legitimate concern. But I want to state both obvious and not so obvious facts:
1. PvP is a legitimate game style in which ever MMO ever made should include in some way, shape or form.
2. PVE content the only reason most (not all) games are successful. It's the driving force behind long term retention in any game.
3. PVE players being forced into a PvP fight will deplete your retention substantially.
4. In order for a PvP player to get a kill he has to kill a player. In many cases this is not a consensual fight.
5. PvP penalty systems only hurt the PvP players retention. They are too steep for PvP players and not steep enough for PVE players. Karma in BDO and jail in ArcheAge did very little (if anything) to curb the desire to PK people. PvP penalty systems just don't work!
6. There are tens of millions of gamers seeking a dragon sword and board game that is new, not a cartoony game and not an anime game. The bulk of them are PVE players.
7. Black Desert Online lost millions of potential customers due to a forced PvP system. Pretty much ever game forum was packed with "I won't play a game where I'm forced to PvP" threads.
8. PvPers (not all of them) are very toxic. They use terms like "git gud", "carebear", "weeb", "scrub" etc. They tear down communities, not build them. They insult and shit talk. PVE players rarely do this. When they do it's typically high end raid guilds (EverQuest 2).
9. Player A wants to play a game and do "X" because it's what they love. They want to spend 18 hours a day gathering trees and delivering them to point B. Why would you hinder their gameplay by allowing them to be PK'd? That's a dev designed issue. You've just pissed off 75% of all gamers (speculative number).
10. Since you already know that one play style will conflict with the other why wouldn't you separate them? This makes no sense to me. No good MMO's have come out in 10 years for PVE players. Not a one. You obviously don't want to be successful.
Pro Tip: PVE players and reasons to play alts are what make gaming companies successful. Restrict one or the other and you've already set yourself up for failure.
I just hope it doesn't turn into something like eve where vast areas are out of bounds. If guilds are going to pk anyone near their node, huge swathes of land could end up out of bounds for general pve.
I can agree with this. SWG had a flagging system that didnt force PVP. BUT it reduced how much PVP was going on because of it. The problem is having Open world PVP will push players to not play solo which happens all to often in MMORPGs. The key is to balance open world PVP with the Corruption system. Most people who will want to outright PVP will flag up and become purple. People who dont will be green and PKers will be red. Red should always be a kill on site. Purples will most of the time be looking to kill other purples they will not be focused on killing Green players. The key is to force players to go directly red that kill green players, this way they are marked as PKers vs Purples who just want to PVP with other Purple players.
I do agree that there will be people that will not want to engage in any PVP and maybe this is not the game for them. Maybe we can have a rotating Peace, Contested and At War state like ArcheAge coupled with the the corruption system. During the Contested and At War state Players attacking greens will get corruption. But players cannot attack greens at all during peace time.
There might be a way to reduce the PKers a bit more without completely getting rid of PKing. But leave the Caravan system and Siege systems alone. Another thing we can do is make Non PVP areas like the roads and X distance from the roads. But you go into the Wild you are in full PVP area. The Non PVP areas can go into PVP state with the caravan in the area and during a Siege. Out in the Wild its open season but thats where the Corruption system helps reduce PKing, plus an open bounty hunter system where Nodes can pay to have bounty hunters kill X player in their node.
What I am thinking is balance the system where you cannot attack low level players because the low level mobs will not be in the PVP free areas. This will protect low level characters. It will still put high level characters at risk of PVP. Also if players who kill green go right to red stats could reduce the PKing in the wild but not get rid of PKing. Bounty Hunters and players who attack red players will not get corruption. That might make for a better setup.