[quote quote=17308]I am sorry but Using WoW as a defense for PVE centric servers is not accurate, When you compare vanilla to the abomination that it has devolved into.
Only the Vanilla players understand what AoC is trying to rekindle to some extent.
Vanilla WoW had epic open world PvP, No Flying, No LFG, getting things done took time and dedication. Raiding was done by 0.1 and only 2 of those 40 raiders would get loot. While the of the population and didn’t even care because the community interacted. There was no “End Game” only “Play Time”
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Quoted for truth. I do miss the Tarren Mill PvP slugfests in Vanilla. SO fun! Those old battles weren't even meaningful. There was no objective except just seeing who could mash who, but maybe it being kind of pointless with no losses to the player is what made it ok.
Along these same lines, I remember the first PvP (RvR) battles in DAoC and how excited I was, or Shadowbane when the whole server banded together to take down the guild I was in...so epic.
All of these, and I had always previously been a PvE player. EQ didn't really have PvP...not like we are talking about. The PvP servers in EQ were crap. Ultima had crazy PvP but when an evil character killed you, there was a really good chance that a good player would come to avenge you. I feel like this game is trying to rekindle the Ultima style of game. I'm just not sure today's players think like the players of that day and age.
Anyway, I hope the PvE players will at least give it a shot. Even if they find they still don't like the PvP there has to be smart ways around getting into it. Also, the devs have said in the latest Q&A that they are making sure the "floor doesn't get too far from the ceiling" in regards to power creep and gear. If they pull that off, this will be an EPIC game and even people that aren't into PvP will be able to handle it.....if they just give it a try.
[quote quote=17146]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/5/#post-17138" rel="nofollow">Trip wrote:</a></div> From what I heard your stats will also be nerfed so your corrupted alt will in effect become a walking marshmallow. Since it’s a sub based game and you won’t have unlimited character slots you would have to pay for more accounts just to make your marshmallow army lol. </blockquote> Yep. If I wanted to gank people none of that would matter to me. My objective would be to gain as much corruption as possible and see how long the character can do so before a brand new newbie could one shot it. Typically alts can be deleted, but even if deleting alts were not an option – I’d just work off the corruption to whatever degree I’m ready to start ganking again. I’d essentially be playing a zombie. Which would be cool with me, if I was really into pissing off other players and ruining their fun.
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You wouldn't get far. Bounty hunters can see where you are and someone with high enough corruption would get repeatedly hunted down for rewards (and possibly dropped gear). Those bounty hunters are also going to be primarily pvp players since it requires them being a citizen of a stage 4 military node.
Your opening premise "Please don't force us to be victims of PVPers!" is pretty damn powerful. Another I have seen is "Mistake #1: Game Devs expect players to pay to be victims". Both are pretty powerful, thought provoking statements. I can't deny.
And Yeah, just about EVERY game Dev has made promises to their customers that "naughty PVP" is unhealthy for a game and they are going to curb it. Just about all have failed to some degree. That has affected all of our(player's) attitudes about "promises from Game Developers. That and of course many other things. The major sticking point, IMO, comes down to the PVP level of small time conflicts. Not wars, not things like caravan capture but rather players that attack to rob other players or clear a NPC mob hot spot because that is also the level of PVP that some do "just for the lulz". It is pretty difficult to allow things like banditry to be meaningful PVP and still keep "naughty PVP" in check.
We haven't seen Entrepid's layered disincentive system at work yet but I do also feel like it is hard to believe that "this time" it will be a success. But we haven't given them a chance yet... Remember that they aren't really even in Alpha yet. We will have lots of time until opening day to watch and see if they tweek and develop it to do the job. Still, not everyone will agree that it is good enough, ever.
Lastly, this isn't going to help but it is reality: 1. For a PVE only server to work, a great deal of the planned game would have to be altered. Pretty much becoming two different games altogether. That is quite a lot to ask of a small/medium Indie developer! 2. Times are a changing. I hated PVP for more years x10 than I have come to accept that it just IS where complex MMOs are going. It wasn't easy and I still don't like getting ganked very much at all. There is player experience here though. Between half way decent punishment mechanics and player advice/knowledge you can pretty much avoid unwanted, unexpected random PVP altogether. IT SIMPLY IS PART OF OUR COST TO PLAY VERY COMPLEX MMOS THESE DAYS.
You don't have to feel anymore of a victim being killed by a player than you have to feel being killed by a wandering NPC monster. Not if you don't want to anyway. It's in the mind.
[quote quote=17314] 1: Take for example the 5 metropolises thing… A group of players that has worked hard to build up a Metropolis (and don’t forget their wonderful houses in that metropolis that have gotten nicer and more valuable as their city grows) is going to cooperate with the server to knock their work down so another group can have one?[/quote] That's no big deal for people who have reached max level in WoW having not engaged in any combat at all. Just leveling via gathering and exploration. Again, just set a time limit for how long each Metropolis will stand and then tear it down and build a new one. A whole lot more fun than raiding the same dungeons month after month after month after month. At least the content will be different was the different nodes are leveled up. Also people do this all the time in voxel-building games like Minecraft and Landmark. And just as AoC have quite a few EQNext devs, the AoC community has quite a few Landmark builders. Spending weeks and months building a city and then tearing it down and starting a new city is plenty of fun for lots of folks.
[quote]2: No PVP, just AI controlled NPCs to stimulate world change , all conflict, pretty much reason for all stories? Can you name AI so powerful that it could operate at a level that keeps a game from being VERY boring within a few days? Nothing is as creative as humans when they have to compete against humans.[/quote] It wouldn't be just AI controlled NPCs to stimulate world change. Rather it would be the players leveling up the nodes and then tearing them back down and leveling up new nodes which will stimulate world change. In addition to the governing choices the players make as they build up new areas of their cities or tear them back down again. EQ PvP didn't stimulate world change. People who love PvE are satisfied with PvE gameplay. Lots of people have no interest in competing with other humans. If the PvE server was so boring that no one wanted to play on it after a few days, just sunset it and turn it into a normal server. That isn't a problem. If you think it's so boring you wouldn't want to play on it, don't play on the PvE server.
[quote]3: On your PVE only server… are there always enough mobs for everyone to grind on when they have time to play? Are there always enough resources for everyone to have as much as they could ever want at any given time? Is there enough gear churn via PVE ONLY that crafters get to keep as busy as they like to stay satisfied? [/quote] Whether there will be enough mobs to satisfy all the adventurers would have to be determined by the actual ratio of players on the server who wish to spend their time killing mobs and the number of players who wish to focus on activities that don't include killing mobs, like exploring. Again, I've hit 60th level in WoW without killing any mobs. And hit 20th level without killing mobs on several alts. Carebears aren't necessarily interested in killing mobs. The players who decide they there aren't enough mobs to satisfy them on the PvE server can start new characters on the normal servers. If there aren't enough players on the PvE server to keep it going - sunset the server and turn it into a normal server. This is not an actual problem. Why not let the PvErs learn from actual experience why they won't enjoy playing on a PvE server?
[quote]4: Does that REALLY sound like a fun game, one in which EVERYTHING you need is always there for you? If everything I need isn’t always there because other players got to it first, can I consider that PVP and a ruination of my evening play plans?[/quote] Yes. It really sounds like a fun game. I disagree that having a PvE server means everything that players need or want will be there. You, yourself, just claimed that there won't be enough mobs for the server to be fun. I have no interest in competing with other players. I play RPGs to cooperate with other players; not to compete with them. What PvErs wish to avoid is PvP combat. As far as I understand things, PvP conflict that is not PvP combat is fair play. I guess you would have to provide an example of why I should be bothered that something I wanted wasn't there because some other player got to it first. Doesn't seem like a reason for me to be concerned.
[quote]5: What I wonder is what about Ashes of Creation anti PVPers are attracted to? The features that make it new and different are largely centered around having to compete with other players. If those features are not what attracted you to AOC, then what exactly did?[/quote] They're attracted to pretty much everything except PvP combat. Competition really has nothing to do with my interests in AoC. I want to cooperate with other payers to build up Metropolises. I want to experience how the nodes generate NPCs and mobs for us to interact with. I want to roleplay through the races and classes. I want to explore the world - preferably via stealth and uncover hidden mysteries - hopefully via a robust suite of non-combat skills. I want to set up a bakery on a freehold and share my baked goods with passersby. Sharing for free being more important than selling. And I want to interact with the other players and hear about their adventures - especially if they are experience that will be fairly unique because the Environment quests are dynamic rather than static. ---just to start.
Your opening premise “Please don’t force us to be victims of PVPers!” is pretty damn powerful. Another I have seen is “Mistake #1: Game Devs expect players to pay to be victims”. Both are pretty powerful, thought provoking statements. I can’t deny.
And Yeah, just about EVERY game Dev has made promises to their customers that “naughty PVP” is unhealthy for a game and they are going to curb it. Just about all have failed to some degree. That has affected all of our(player’s) attitudes about “promises from Game Developers. That and of course many other things. The major sticking point, IMO, comes down to the PVP level of small time conflicts. Not wars, not things like caravan capture but rather players that attack to rob other players or clear a NPC mob hot spot because that is also the level of PVP that some do “just for the lulz”. It is pretty difficult to allow things like banditry to be meaningful PVP and still keep “naughty PVP” in check.
We haven’t seen Entrepid’s layered disincentive system at work yet but I do also feel like it is hard to believe that “this time” it will be a success. But we haven’t given them a chance yet… Remember that they aren’t really even in Alpha yet. We will have lots of time until opening day to watch and see if they tweek and develop it to do the job. Still, not everyone will agree that it is good enough, ever.
Lastly, this isn’t going to help but it is reality: 1. For a PVE only server to work, a great deal of the planned game would have to be altered. Pretty much becoming two different games altogether. That is quite a lot to ask of a small/medium Indie developer! 2. Times are a changing. I hated PVP for more years x10 than I have come to accept that it just IS where complex MMOs are going. It wasn’t easy and I still don’t like getting ganked very much at all. There is player experience here though. Between half way decent punishment mechanics and player advice/knowledge you can pretty much avoid unwanted, unexpected random PVP altogether. IT SIMPLY IS PART OF OUR COST TO PLAY VERY COMPLEX MMOS THESE DAYS.
You don’t have to feel anymore of a victim being killed by a player than you have to feel being killed by a wandering NPC monster. Not if you don’t want to anyway. It’s in the mind.
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My fear is two fold. Two possible outcomes, both negative, will result from this "Corrupt" PK penalty system.
1. PvP players are going to hate it because it penalizes their preferred game style. It's too taxing on a per kill basis.
2. PvE players are going to hate it because it's not taxing enough. They want to be left in peace.
We now have forums blowing up about who's perspective is wrong or right; but they are both right. It is very possible to launch with PVE only servers, PVP only servers and mixed servers. There is a creative solution here and if the devs are receptive to our feedback I'm sure we can come up with a compromise so that everyone gets to enjoy Ashes of Creation.
Developing a game is no different than staring at a blank easel. The devs are the artists and can do anything they want. There is no limit to creativity.
[quote quote=17344]Developing a game is no different than staring at a blank easel. The devs are the artists and can do anything they want. There is no limit to creativity.[/quote] Money, time and tech are the primary limitations. Game devs can't do anything they want. Especially when developing MMORPGs. (Investors are also a major limitation.)
the limit to creativity in the MMO space is $ and it aint cheap. there is no blank easel, but 14 months of development ongoing. Personally funded by the Game Director.
There is already a focused Creative direction. I am sorry it does not conform to your ideals or the"majority" you represent.
The entire World is balanced around a pivotal core system at a fundamental level.
You can't just flip a PVP switch without throwing out the mechanics of the world designed specifically around conflict to conform to limp pacifism.
I understand you like picking flowers under rainbows and riding unicorns, there are a plethora of games that offer this.
Please understand that Ashes is trying to bring back an MMO experience that was buried over a decade ago and i would appreciate that you take the time to respect that and not try to hijack its purpose to suit your apparent needs, which if was the case would be the actual negative outcomes.
Being 1. a compromised game and 2. a compromised player experience.
[quote quote=17302] Nope. Those two concepts are not analogous. Have a server with the ruleset of no PvP because there are paying customers who would like to play there – just as there will be paying customers who would like to play on an RP server.
Non-combatants acting as support for combatants is a key component in the devs’ vision of their game design. That PvPers will be doing some PvE also is beside the point. If all the devs needed was PvPers on the normal servers, having a PvE server wouldn’t be an issue. There really isn’t any other reason not to support a pvE server because there’s no extra work for them that is significantly different from having an RP server.
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First, my argument has never been that you can not have a pve server, it was a counter argument to someone who said it's mandatory. Second, the reason you don't like what i said is because i'm looking at cod and this game as games with features. What i was trying to say with my analog is that just because a feature worked for one game doesn't mean it is required or even works for another one. So just because this is a MMORPG doesn't mean the game is designed to be played without the pvp aspects of the game. Yes, you could probably enter almost any mmorpg and playing it as a pve game but that doesn't mean that is the experience the developers were trying to give and because of that, it might not be the best quality experience.
I'm not saying a pve server won't work in this instance, just saying that they are not mandatory for MMORPGs.
I don't think it's that the devs need pve'ers and pvpers together but more that pvp is a part of the game they are creating. They want them together to create a diverse community. The big thing is stripping out pvp would change the game. This isn't wow where world pvp means nothing and stripping it out changes nothing.
[quote quote=17330]For a PVE only server to work, a great deal of the planned game would have to be altered. Pretty much becoming two different games altogether. That is quite a lot to ask of a small/medium Indie developer![/quote] Damn it! I really hate Forums that have no Like button! That was a great post!!
I disagree with your quote above. The devs can designate a PvE server with no change at all to the code. The GMs would have to police it similar to the way the RP servers are policed. Penalizing players who break the ruleset. If the devs were going to code something so they don't have to police the server all that's necessary is a few strings of code to turn off PvP combat. The players on the server can then be left to deal with the consequences of not having PvP combat influence the server. And, if that gameplay is so undesirable that not enough people play on the sever to keep it going, just sunset the server and replace it with a normal server.
What mechanics are you expecting would need to be changed in order to make a PvE server work?
I started as a PvE only player In WoW but was shown the errors of my ways by players that looked for PvP (For The Horde, battle grounds, etc). Pretty soon I too could be found prowling Southshore.
I never became great at PvP but the adrenaline high (totally natural high, man) is a rush - Whether sneaking through enemy territory to complete the explorer achievement or running around Cyrodiil in ESO to do dailies while dodging roving bands of the other two factions nothing comes close in an online experience as not knowing where the next attack is coming from.
I understand why players would want a PvE only experience - They are the explorers, the travelers, the players that just want to see what lays just over the next hill. They want to enjoy a nice quiet stroll through the countryside while finding everything there is to be found. Unfortunately this is not the game for them.
While I'm not looking forward to getting ganked (which *is* going to happen, oh well) I am satisfied that the team has it right with the corruption system and see exactly why PvP will be a necessary element for this game.
I for one and not a "PvP" player.. I enjoy PvE.. However, I also enjoy a realistic style game where risk is rewarded. What I dont like however are the people who get there kicks by causing other people grief.. Aka gankers, grievers, etc.. I have a special word for those people but I will keep to myself and let the gene pool filter out those individuals, eventually..
With that said, I do enjoy playing an MMO that "rewards" proper PvP play which is what I think AoC (not to be confused with Age of Conan) will hopefully be able to accomplish. I for one am really looking forward to AoC and have even thought of "coming out of retirement" to start and lead a Guild..
I love the thrill of sneaking through enemy territory, dodging roving bands of other factions, too. I just get that thrill from the NPCs and not from players. Whenever I level, I uncover as much of the fog of war as I can until I start to encounter skull-conned mobs. The first thing I do when I create a new character is run it over to a different starting area. For example, I'll run a brand new tauren over to the troll starting area. It's not really about wanting no risk or nice quiet strolls through the countryside. Rather it's about wanting all the combat - if there has to be combat- to come from mobs.
Gathering herbs and mining ore isn't a low challenge endeavor when you're playing the carebear challenge to reach max level without killing anything. Especially not when you double up on the challenge by having start over if the character get's killed. The no kills, no deaths challenge is not a quiet stroll in the park.
That being said, I'm expecting to enjoy playing AoC on the normal servers. (lots of great posts here!!)
[quote quote=17359]I started as a PvE only player In WoW but was shown the errors of my ways by players that looked for PvP (For The Horde, battle grounds, etc). Pretty soon I too could be found prowling Southshore.
I never became great at PvP but the adrenaline high (totally natural high, man) is a rush – Whether sneaking through enemy territory to complete the explorer achievement or running around Cyrodiil in ESO to do dailies while dodging roving bands of the other two factions nothing comes close in an online experience as not knowing where the next attack is coming from.
I understand why players would want a PvE only experience – They are the explorers, the travelers, the players that just want to see what lays just over the next hill. They want to enjoy a nice quiet stroll through the countryside while finding everything there is to be found. Unfortunately this is not the game for them.
While I’m not looking forward to getting ganked (which *is* going to happen, oh well) I am satisfied that the team has it right with the corruption system and see exactly why PvP will be a necessary element for this game.[/quote] I love the thrill of sneaking through enemy territory, dodging roving bands of other factions, too. I just get that thrill from the NPCs and not from players. Whenever I level, I uncover as much of the fog of war as I can until I start to encounter skull-conned mobs. The first thing I do when I create a new character is run it over to a different starting area. For example, I'll run a brand new tauren over to the troll starting area. It's not really about wanting no risk or nice quiet strolls through the countryside. Rather it's about wanting all the combat - if there has to be combat- to come from mobs.
Gathering herbs and mining ore isn't a low challenge endeavor when you're playing the carebear challenge to reach max level without killing anything. Especially not when you double up on the challenge by having start over if the character get's killed. The no kills, no deaths challenge is not a quiet stroll in the park.
That being said, I'm expecting to enjoy playing AoC on the normal servers. (lots of great posts here!)
[quote quote=17359]They want to enjoy a nice quiet stroll through the countryside while finding everything there is to be found. <strong>Unfortunately this is not the game for them</strong>.[/quote]
Your statement bolded here with the surrounding context implies that you are under the impression the game was designed with PvP set at the forefront. If that is your argument, I wish to counter that this is not the case. PvE is indisputably a part of this game, and the developers have highlighted time and again that they want PvE to be about exploration and enjoying the journey of growing the lore and nodes themselves. I say this merely to insure those reading that it is possible to "enjoy a nice stroll" if they so please, just with the added risk of possible encounters of other players. The chances of "in-the-wild" PvP occuring will likely hit a certain level at launch, but slowly dwindle as caravans and sieges become more tantalizing targets. The game is designed to please a large number of playstyles, and I think both PvP'ers and PvE'ers will be able to find enjoyment in AoC.
Now, with that said, I agree that PvP is just as important an aspect of this game that offers a range of effects for PvE'ers whether they will notice it or not. The two will be intertwined to a degree, and in some ways necessary for the other (i.e. economy, node influence, etc.). We'll have to wait a bit to see just how much that connection entails in detail.
1. Not much about Node Cities would work except the building up of them. Since there are top level limitations and there would be no way to force a change in who has them, only a system of server wide agreement on wrecking them would work. It doesn't seem realistic to believe that 1000s of players would agree to anything. Major disappointment would result from hard work Node Building players in losing not only the city that they built but the in-city property that has accrued personal value. Just would not willingly happen so those mechanics would have to change.
2. All of the work to-date on how PVP works and interrelates to gear churn, resource availability, crafting satisfaction(the rate that crafting is needed) and many more "balance" issues would have to be replotted and maybe even preliminary code changed.
3. Any already conceived, balanced, and even just written as design doc plans for PVE mobs would all have to be redone because without PVP as part of the Plan, the Planned PVE would probably not be challenging enough.
4. Any work so far on quests based around PVP, the corruption system as a whole, the bounty system, and a host of interrelated things to these would have to be untangled from the code or if not coded yet would have to be redesigned.
That's a few things. Basically you would be asking them to trash everything done so far except maybe graphics but definitely planning and balancing and probably some coding already started.
[quote quote=16639]Probably not going to happen but as long as you don’t flag yourself for pvp getting ganked should be a rare thing in this game……it won’t be like pirates or sausans, more like manes (pretty sure I recognize your name from the black desert forums)
Pkers killing unflagged players will suffer from a debut that reduces their stats, marks them on the map, rewards other player for killing them, and makes it so they might drop their gear when killed……..I’d say that’s a pretty big penalty and will make most players think twice before killing others for no good reason.[/quote]
Let us keep in mind that, initially, we will have TONS of players who buy the game cuz it's the NEWEST! BIGGEST! BADDEST! THING! OUT! THERE!
These players, most of them, won't read about the game, they won't study the deterrents to PK and ganking ... so the first month or so will likely be full of arsehats bein' arsehats.
Stick it out. Once they start realizing it's better to roll an alt than make up the corruption, they'll get sick of it.
I used to, when I was on a PVP server in WoW, get ganked. I'd return to my body, and get ganked again by some neanderthal with an IQ of about 5, but who was 20 levels above me. I learned, quickly, that if I kept respawning, they'd eventually get bored (within about three minutes usually) and leave. Their attention spans are low, and if they're not getting the visceral thrill of 'pissing off the lowbie player' then they don't stick it out.
I've also been a part of new games, new launches, and I've found that the community can self-police, making it difficult for arsehat players to continue. So give it a month, stick it out, and let's see what happens.
[quote quote=17395]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/#post-16639" rel="nofollow">Darthaden wrote:</a></div> Probably not going to happen but as long as you don’t flag yourself for pvp getting ganked should be a rare thing in this game……it won’t be like pirates or sausans, more like manes (pretty sure I recognize your name from the black desert forums)
Pkers killing unflagged players will suffer from a debut that reduces their stats, marks them on the map, rewards other player for killing them, and makes it so they might drop their gear when killed……..I’d say that’s a pretty big penalty and will make most players think twice before killing others for no good reason. </blockquote> Let us keep in mind that, initially, we will have TONS of players who buy the game cuz it’s the NEWEST! BIGGEST! BADDEST! THING! OUT! THERE!
These players, most of them, won’t read about the game, they won’t study the deterrents to PK and ganking … so the first month or so will likely be full of arsehats bein’ arsehats.
Stick it out. Once they start realizing it’s better to roll an alt than make up the corruption, they’ll get sick of it.
I used to, when I was on a PVP server in WoW, get ganked. I’d return to my body, and get ganked again by some neanderthal with an IQ of about 5, but who was 20 levels above me. I learned, quickly, that if I kept respawning, they’d eventually get bored (within about three minutes usually) and leave. Their attention spans are low, and if they’re not getting the visceral thrill of ‘pissing off the lowbie player’ then they don’t stick it out.
I’ve also been a part of new games, new launches, and I’ve found that the community can self-police, making it difficult for arsehat players to continue. So give it a month, stick it out, and let’s see what happens.
I still have hope, dammit!
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With the corruption system you will reduce ganking a lot. The reason is, is that players will lose combat effectiveness and they will also lose their gear if they die. If they are not getting anything off killing you except their jollies off they will end up combat ineffective for hours and they will be farmed by bounty hunters.
I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn't have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
[quote quote=17445]I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
[/quote]
Sounds good to me. I am with that. Funny thing is a good friend of mine is already planning to be a PKer and a Bounty Hunter in this game. Though he wants to go and PK players for guilds who are ass hats on the server. If there is a guild that is known for being problems he wants to kill any of their members all the time. I think that is fair since he is ok with getting killed himself lol
[quote quote=17445]I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
[/quote] Wait.... Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don't flag "combatant"? I just stay flagged "noncombatant"? If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
[quote quote=17463]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/9/#post-17445" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div> I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
</blockquote> Wait…. Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don’t flag “combatant”? I just stay flagged “noncombatant”? If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
[/quote]
He is just proposing that as an idea. Which would be a good idea come to think of it. Just make it so they are a combatant but they just dont get flagged purple, or maybe make Bounty hunters who attack Red's Blue?
[quote quote=17384]1. Not much about Node Cities would work except the building up of them. Since there are top level limitations and there would be no way to force a change in who has them, only a system of server wide agreement on wrecking them would work. It doesn’t seem realistic to believe that 1000s of players would agree to anything. Major disappointment would result from hard work Node Building players in losing not only the city that they built but the in-city property that has accrued personal value. Just would not willingly happen so those mechanics would have to change.[/quote] Which is fine because once the players realize that nothing in the Node Cities work unless a change occurs, they would be likely to agree to set a time limit that each city can remain standing. Since I was the one to suggest that as a solution for preventing stagnation, people won't have to discover that in game, I will be promoting that concept to PvE server advocates as one of the key components that would like be necessary for the server to function well. I don't understand why 1000s of players would be subjected to major disappointment when all of this will be well-covered more than a year in advance of the first alpha. Plenty of people spend months building in Minecraft and Landmark only to tear down, move to a new location and spend months building something new. Millions of people love doing that. People willing to play on the PvE server would go in knowing that there's a great deal of risk that they may not enjoy the consequences of having no PvP combat...and they are free to jump server whenever they feel it isn't fun. This is a non-issue
[quote]2. All of the work to-date on how PVP works and interrelates to gear churn, resource availability, crafting satisfaction(the rate that crafting is needed) and many more “balance” issues would have to be replotted and maybe even preliminary code changed.[/quote] Nope. The don't have to be replotted. The players just have to struggle to adapt. If they enjoy playing as is, well, they're paying they're subs for fun. If they don't enjoy playing as is, the devs sunset the server and replace it with a normal one when the server pop drops below xxx.
[quote]3. Any already conceived, balanced, and even just written as design doc plans for PVE mobs would all have to be redone because without PVP as part of the Plan, the Planned PVE would probably not be challenging enough.[/quote} Challenging enough for what? A PvE server is likely to be a casual challenge server. Also likely to be the ultimate "theatre RP" server. Why would that not be a valid ruleset for a server if enough people enjoy playing on it?
[quote]4. Any work so far on quests based around PVP, the corruption system as a whole, the bounty system, and a host of interrelated things to these would have to be untangled from the code or if not coded yet would have to be redesigned.[/quote] Nope. You just let the server play out as is...same as the other servers. And the players have to deal with whatever mess arises. In that sense it's kind of a risk server. It's a kind of mad scientist experiment.
[quote]That’s a few things. Basically you would be asking them to trash everything done so far except maybe graphics but definitely planning and balancing and probably some coding already started.[/quote] The only thing they should change is turning the PvP combat off - and then let the server sink or swim. "We told you not enough people would like it."
You don't believe that starting and operating servers is easy do you? Why start servers, that will be buggy because PVP was turned off, that people will join and/or leave on a whim because... well they are bugged out without all the software running right? I doubt that whatever PVP work they have done can just be "shut off". Not unless that planned to have that option from the start. MMOs are much more complicated than that.
[quote quote=17471]I don’t understand why 1000s of players would be subjected to major disappointment when all of this will be well-covered more than a year in advance of the first alpha.[/quote]
It does not matter because the Developers already have a direction they want to go in and they should. Its about time Developers forget trying to make everyone happy, driving up the MMORPG development cost and then ending up with an MMORPG that no one wants to play except if its free.
You can have a great Idea. But the Developers Already have a direction they are going in. They already said they are NOT splitting the MMORPG community. So while it might be a good idea, it will cost money and development time which can be better spent on doing stuff like ships and the underworld. Those would be more valuable than wasting money on the PVE crowd who just wants a PVE game when this is a PVP focused game. Having more content that players will spend more time in meaning they stay subbed longer is better than making the PVE crowd happy who in the end will get bored because there is a lot less to do just because the developers had to spend time redesigning their game for a PVE server. Now if PVEers want to contribute least say another 3 Million Dollars to the project for the time that it will take to built another server figure out how to integrate that with the current client and all. Then let's talk. But I dont see that money coming forward to spend developing a PVE server.
[quote quote=17463]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/9/#post-17445" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div> I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
</blockquote> Wait…. Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don’t flag “combatant”? I just stay flagged “noncombatant”? If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
[/quote]
I'll have to find the quote in the Q/A answers I've been reading but it was something that Steven said regarding when people get corruption. Not sure where I found it. I'll go digging and post it, if I can find it.
Gives me an idear! If this game's PVP can actually be "shut off" without causing a software meltdown, why not put PVE server fans to the test and make those servers a KS stretch goal?
[quote quote=17483]Gives me an idear! If this game’s PVP can actually be “shut off” without causing a software meltdown, why not put PVE server fans to the test and make those servers a KS stretch goal?
[/quote]
Sure if the Stretch goal is over 3 million. That will be 10% of what the investment from private funding is out there. Likely that might not be enough because you will need to find systems that will replace PVP systems. The problem is, is all the time that will need to go into the developing that AI so it is not scripted to the point there is no change ever on a PVE server. You cannot script PVP. That is why you dont need to spend countless hours on PVE scripting.
Likely if you want a PVE environment to replace PVP you will need to over power PVE. For example you might have a red dragon flight that attacks a levle 6 node. That red dragon flight is several thousand smaller dragons all over the node and several massive dragons. You have to keep them from destroying 9 of 10 objectives. It has to be something so tough that it will take a few hundred players throughout the zone doing something vs a PVP siege which is very unpredictable.
The developers already have a direction they want to go in... and they should do so. We agree.
Having one server that turns off the PvP combat doesn't derail or impede development or release at all. At most the code for turning off PvP combat is going to be 40 man hours. The devs have more than enough money for that. The devs shouldn't waste any time "developing" a PvE server. Turn off the PvP combat code. If the PvEers don't like playing on it, shut it down and replace it with normal. If they do like playing on it and the have a population high enough to keep it running, let it run.
Only tech/production reasons not to have a PvE server is if that's going to negatively impact the normal servers in some way.
[quote quote=17484] Sure if the Stretch goal is over 3 million. That will be 10% of what the investment from private funding is out there. Likely that might not be enough because you will need to find systems that will replace PVP systems. The problem is, is all the time that will need to go into the developing that AI so it is not scripted to the point there is no change ever on a PVE server. You cannot script PVP. That is why you don't need to spend countless hours on PVE scripting. [/quote] Again. No. Just turn of the the PvP combat and let the server sink or swim. The devs don't have to replace any systems whatsover.
The change will be driven by the players... it just won't involve players killing players.
Comments
Only the Vanilla players understand what AoC is trying to rekindle to some extent.
Vanilla WoW had epic open world PvP, No Flying, No LFG, getting things done took time and dedication. Raiding was done by 0.1 and only 2 of those 40 raiders would get loot. While the of the population and didn’t even care because the community interacted. There was no “End Game” only “Play Time”
[/quote]
Quoted for truth. I do miss the Tarren Mill PvP slugfests in Vanilla. SO fun! Those old battles weren't even meaningful. There was no objective except just seeing who could mash who, but maybe it being kind of pointless with no losses to the player is what made it ok.
Along these same lines, I remember the first PvP (RvR) battles in DAoC and how excited I was, or Shadowbane when the whole server banded together to take down the guild I was in...so epic.
All of these, and I had always previously been a PvE player. EQ didn't really have PvP...not like we are talking about. The PvP servers in EQ were crap. Ultima had crazy PvP but when an evil character killed you, there was a really good chance that a good player would come to avenge you. I feel like this game is trying to rekindle the Ultima style of game. I'm just not sure today's players think like the players of that day and age.
Anyway, I hope the PvE players will at least give it a shot. Even if they find they still don't like the PvP there has to be smart ways around getting into it. Also, the devs have said in the latest Q&A that they are making sure the "floor doesn't get too far from the ceiling" in regards to power creep and gear. If they pull that off, this will be an EPIC game and even people that aren't into PvP will be able to handle it.....if they just give it a try.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/5/#post-17138" rel="nofollow">Trip wrote:</a></div>
From what I heard your stats will also be nerfed so your corrupted alt will in effect become a walking marshmallow. Since it’s a sub based game and you won’t have unlimited character slots you would have to pay for more accounts just to make your marshmallow army lol.
</blockquote>
Yep. If I wanted to gank people none of that would matter to me. My objective would be to gain as much corruption as possible and see how long the character can do so before a brand new newbie could one shot it. Typically alts can be deleted, but even if deleting alts were not an option – I’d just work off the corruption to whatever degree I’m ready to start ganking again. I’d essentially be playing a zombie. Which would be cool with me, if I was really into pissing off other players and ruining their fun.
[/quote]
You wouldn't get far. Bounty hunters can see where you are and someone with high enough corruption would get repeatedly hunted down for rewards (and possibly dropped gear). Those bounty hunters are also going to be primarily pvp players since it requires them being a citizen of a stage 4 military node.
Basically they have map hacks and you wouldn't.
Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14luppZ3Ub8jmcw_aK65QWxYY4xa8qAo9zRfpYWBxOXE/edit
It might be a gank-fest in the first few weeks but you are visually corrupt so everyone will see you coming.
Your opening premise "Please don't force us to be victims of PVPers!" is pretty damn powerful. Another I have seen is "Mistake #1: Game Devs expect players to pay to be victims". Both are pretty powerful, thought provoking statements. I can't deny.
And Yeah, just about EVERY game Dev has made promises to their customers that "naughty PVP" is unhealthy for a game and they are going to curb it. Just about all have failed to some degree. That has affected all of our(player's) attitudes about "promises from Game Developers. That and of course many other things. The major sticking point, IMO, comes down to the PVP level of small time conflicts. Not wars, not things like caravan capture but rather players that attack to rob other players or clear a NPC mob hot spot because that is also the level of PVP that some do "just for the lulz". It is pretty difficult to allow things like banditry to be meaningful PVP and still keep "naughty PVP" in check.
We haven't seen Entrepid's layered disincentive system at work yet but I do also feel like it is hard to believe that "this time" it will be a success. But we haven't given them a chance yet... Remember that they aren't really even in Alpha yet. We will have lots of time until opening day to watch and see if they tweek and develop it to do the job. Still, not everyone will agree that it is good enough, ever.
Lastly, this isn't going to help but it is reality:
1. For a PVE only server to work, a great deal of the planned game would have to be altered. Pretty much becoming two different games altogether. That is quite a lot to ask of a small/medium Indie developer!
2. Times are a changing. I hated PVP for more years x10 than I have come to accept that it just IS where complex MMOs are going. It wasn't easy and I still don't like getting ganked very much at all. There is player experience here though. Between half way decent punishment mechanics and player advice/knowledge you can pretty much avoid unwanted, unexpected random PVP altogether. IT SIMPLY IS PART OF OUR COST TO PLAY VERY COMPLEX MMOS THESE DAYS.
You don't have to feel anymore of a victim being killed by a player than you have to feel being killed by a wandering NPC monster. Not if you don't want to anyway. It's in the mind.
1: Take for example the 5 metropolises thing… A group of players that has worked hard to build up a Metropolis (and don’t forget their wonderful houses in that metropolis that have gotten nicer and more valuable as their city grows) is going to cooperate with the server to knock their work down so another group can have one?[/quote]
That's no big deal for people who have reached max level in WoW having not engaged in any combat at all. Just leveling via gathering and exploration.
Again, just set a time limit for how long each Metropolis will stand and then tear it down and build a new one. A whole lot more fun than raiding the same dungeons month after month after month after month. At least the content will be different was the different nodes are leveled up.
Also people do this all the time in voxel-building games like Minecraft and Landmark. And just as AoC have quite a few EQNext devs, the AoC community has quite a few Landmark builders. Spending weeks and months building a city and then tearing it down and starting a new city is plenty of fun for lots of folks.
[quote]2: No PVP, just AI controlled NPCs to stimulate world change , all conflict, pretty much reason for all stories? Can you name AI so powerful that it could operate at a level that keeps a game from being VERY boring within a few days? Nothing is as creative as humans when they have to compete against humans.[/quote]
It wouldn't be just AI controlled NPCs to stimulate world change. Rather it would be the players leveling up the nodes and then tearing them back down and leveling up new nodes which will stimulate world change. In addition to the governing choices the players make as they build up new areas of their cities or tear them back down again.
EQ PvP didn't stimulate world change. People who love PvE are satisfied with PvE gameplay.
Lots of people have no interest in competing with other humans. If the PvE server was so boring that no one wanted to play on it after a few days, just sunset it and turn it into a normal server. That isn't a problem. If you think it's so boring you wouldn't want to play on it, don't play on the PvE server.
[quote]3: On your PVE only server… are there always enough mobs for everyone to grind on when they have time to play? Are there always enough resources for everyone to have as much as they could ever want at any given time? Is there enough gear churn via PVE ONLY that crafters get to keep as busy as they like to stay satisfied? [/quote]
Whether there will be enough mobs to satisfy all the adventurers would have to be determined by the actual ratio of players on the server who wish to spend their time killing mobs and the number of players who wish to focus on activities that don't include killing mobs, like exploring. Again, I've hit 60th level in WoW without killing any mobs. And hit 20th level without killing mobs on several alts. Carebears aren't necessarily interested in killing mobs.
The players who decide they there aren't enough mobs to satisfy them on the PvE server can start new characters on the normal servers. If there aren't enough players on the PvE server to keep it going - sunset the server and turn it into a normal server.
This is not an actual problem. Why not let the PvErs learn from actual experience why they won't enjoy playing on a PvE server?
[quote]4: Does that REALLY sound like a fun game, one in which EVERYTHING you need is always there for you? If everything I need isn’t always there because other players got to it first, can I consider that PVP and a ruination of my evening play plans?[/quote]
Yes. It really sounds like a fun game. I disagree that having a PvE server means everything that players need or want will be there. You, yourself, just claimed that there won't be enough mobs for the server to be fun.
I have no interest in competing with other players. I play RPGs to cooperate with other players; not to compete with them.
What PvErs wish to avoid is PvP combat. As far as I understand things, PvP conflict that is not PvP combat is fair play.
I guess you would have to provide an example of why I should be bothered that something I wanted wasn't there because some other player got to it first. Doesn't seem like a reason for me to be concerned.
[quote]5: What I wonder is what about Ashes of Creation anti PVPers are attracted to? The features that make it new and different are largely centered around having to compete with other players. If those features are not what attracted you to AOC, then what exactly did?[/quote]
They're attracted to pretty much everything except PvP combat.
Competition really has nothing to do with my interests in AoC.
I want to cooperate with other payers to build up Metropolises.
I want to experience how the nodes generate NPCs and mobs for us to interact with.
I want to roleplay through the races and classes.
I want to explore the world - preferably via stealth and uncover hidden mysteries - hopefully via a robust suite of non-combat skills.
I want to set up a bakery on a freehold and share my baked goods with passersby. Sharing for free being more important than selling.
And I want to interact with the other players and hear about their adventures - especially if they are experience that will be fairly unique because the Environment quests are dynamic rather than static.
---just to start.
Your opening premise “Please don’t force us to be victims of PVPers!” is pretty damn powerful. Another I have seen is “Mistake #1: Game Devs expect players to pay to be victims”. Both are pretty powerful, thought provoking statements. I can’t deny.
And Yeah, just about EVERY game Dev has made promises to their customers that “naughty PVP” is unhealthy for a game and they are going to curb it. Just about all have failed to some degree. That has affected all of our(player’s) attitudes about “promises from Game Developers. That and of course many other things. The major sticking point, IMO, comes down to the PVP level of small time conflicts. Not wars, not things like caravan capture but rather players that attack to rob other players or clear a NPC mob hot spot because that is also the level of PVP that some do “just for the lulz”. It is pretty difficult to allow things like banditry to be meaningful PVP and still keep “naughty PVP” in check.
We haven’t seen Entrepid’s layered disincentive system at work yet but I do also feel like it is hard to believe that “this time” it will be a success. But we haven’t given them a chance yet… Remember that they aren’t really even in Alpha yet. We will have lots of time until opening day to watch and see if they tweek and develop it to do the job. Still, not everyone will agree that it is good enough, ever.
Lastly, this isn’t going to help but it is reality:
1. For a PVE only server to work, a great deal of the planned game would have to be altered. Pretty much becoming two different games altogether. That is quite a lot to ask of a small/medium Indie developer!
2. Times are a changing. I hated PVP for more years x10 than I have come to accept that it just IS where complex MMOs are going. It wasn’t easy and I still don’t like getting ganked very much at all. There is player experience here though. Between half way decent punishment mechanics and player advice/knowledge you can pretty much avoid unwanted, unexpected random PVP altogether. IT SIMPLY IS PART OF OUR COST TO PLAY VERY COMPLEX MMOS THESE DAYS.
You don’t have to feel anymore of a victim being killed by a player than you have to feel being killed by a wandering NPC monster. Not if you don’t want to anyway. It’s in the mind.
[/quote]
My fear is two fold. Two possible outcomes, both negative, will result from this "Corrupt" PK penalty system.
1. PvP players are going to hate it because it penalizes their preferred game style. It's too taxing on a per kill basis.
2. PvE players are going to hate it because it's not taxing enough. They want to be left in peace.
We now have forums blowing up about who's perspective is wrong or right; but they are both right. It is very possible to launch with PVE only servers, PVP only servers and mixed servers. There is a creative solution here and if the devs are receptive to our feedback I'm sure we can come up with a compromise so that everyone gets to enjoy Ashes of Creation.
Money, time and tech are the primary limitations. Game devs can't do anything they want. Especially when developing MMORPGs.
(Investors are also a major limitation.)
There is already a focused Creative direction. I am sorry it does not conform to your ideals or the"majority" you represent.
The entire World is balanced around a pivotal core system at a fundamental level.
You can't just flip a PVP switch without throwing out the mechanics of the world designed specifically around conflict to conform to limp pacifism.
I understand you like picking flowers under rainbows and riding unicorns, there are a plethora of games that offer this.
Please understand that Ashes is trying to bring back an MMO experience that was buried over a decade ago and i would appreciate that you take the time to respect that and not try to hijack its purpose to suit your apparent needs, which if was the case would be the actual negative outcomes.
Being 1. a compromised game and 2. a compromised player experience.
Thank you.
Nope. Those two concepts are not analogous.
Have a server with the ruleset of no PvP because there are paying customers who would like to play there – just as there will be paying customers who would like to play on an RP server.
Non-combatants acting as support for combatants is a key component in the devs’ vision of their game design.
That PvPers will be doing some PvE also is beside the point.
If all the devs needed was PvPers on the normal servers, having a PvE server wouldn’t be an issue.
There really isn’t any other reason not to support a pvE server because there’s no extra work for them that is significantly different from having an RP server.
[/quote]
First, my argument has never been that you can not have a pve server, it was a counter argument to someone who said it's mandatory. Second, the reason you don't like what i said is because i'm looking at cod and this game as games with features. What i was trying to say with my analog is that just because a feature worked for one game doesn't mean it is required or even works for another one. So just because this is a MMORPG doesn't mean the game is designed to be played without the pvp aspects of the game. Yes, you could probably enter almost any mmorpg and playing it as a pve game but that doesn't mean that is the experience the developers were trying to give and because of that, it might not be the best quality experience.
I'm not saying a pve server won't work in this instance, just saying that they are not mandatory for MMORPGs.
I don't think it's that the devs need pve'ers and pvpers together but more that pvp is a part of the game they are creating. They want them together to create a diverse community. The big thing is stripping out pvp would change the game. This isn't wow where world pvp means nothing and stripping it out changes nothing.
Damn it! I really hate Forums that have no Like button!
That was a great post!!
I disagree with your quote above.
The devs can designate a PvE server with no change at all to the code. The GMs would have to police it similar to the way the RP servers are policed. Penalizing players who break the ruleset.
If the devs were going to code something so they don't have to police the server all that's necessary is a few strings of code to turn off PvP combat. The players on the server can then be left to deal with the consequences of not having PvP combat influence the server.
And, if that gameplay is so undesirable that not enough people play on the sever to keep it going, just sunset the server and replace it with a normal server.
What mechanics are you expecting would need to be changed in order to make a PvE server work?
I never became great at PvP but the adrenaline high (totally natural high, man) is a rush - Whether sneaking through enemy territory to complete the explorer achievement or running around Cyrodiil in ESO to do dailies while dodging roving bands of the other two factions nothing comes close in an online experience as not knowing where the next attack is coming from.
I understand why players would want a PvE only experience - They are the explorers, the travelers, the players that just want to see what lays just over the next hill. They want to enjoy a nice quiet stroll through the countryside while finding everything there is to be found. Unfortunately this is not the game for them.
While I'm not looking forward to getting ganked (which *is* going to happen, oh well) I am satisfied that the team has it right with the corruption system and see exactly why PvP will be a necessary element for this game.
With that said, I do enjoy playing an MMO that "rewards" proper PvP play which is what I think AoC (not to be confused with Age of Conan) will hopefully be able to accomplish. I for one am really looking forward to AoC and have even thought of "coming out of retirement" to start and lead a Guild..
In kind regards,
Similarin Roche
I just get that thrill from the NPCs and not from players.
Whenever I level, I uncover as much of the fog of war as I can until I start to encounter skull-conned mobs.
The first thing I do when I create a new character is run it over to a different starting area. For example, I'll run a brand new tauren over to the troll starting area. It's not really about wanting no risk or nice quiet strolls through the countryside. Rather it's about wanting all the combat - if there has to be combat- to come from mobs.
Gathering herbs and mining ore isn't a low challenge endeavor when you're playing the carebear challenge to reach max level without killing anything. Especially not when you double up on the challenge by having start over if the character get's killed.
The no kills, no deaths challenge is not a quiet stroll in the park.
That being said, I'm expecting to enjoy playing AoC on the normal servers.
(lots of great posts here!!)
I never became great at PvP but the adrenaline high (totally natural high, man) is a rush – Whether sneaking through enemy territory to complete the explorer achievement or running around Cyrodiil in ESO to do dailies while dodging roving bands of the other two factions nothing comes close in an online experience as not knowing where the next attack is coming from.
I understand why players would want a PvE only experience – They are the explorers, the travelers, the players that just want to see what lays just over the next hill. They want to enjoy a nice quiet stroll through the countryside while finding everything there is to be found. Unfortunately this is not the game for them.
While I’m not looking forward to getting ganked (which *is* going to happen, oh well) I am satisfied that the team has it right with the corruption system and see exactly why PvP will be a necessary element for this game.[/quote]
I love the thrill of sneaking through enemy territory, dodging roving bands of other factions, too.
I just get that thrill from the NPCs and not from players.
Whenever I level, I uncover as much of the fog of war as I can until I start to encounter skull-conned mobs.
The first thing I do when I create a new character is run it over to a different starting area. For example, I'll run a brand new tauren over to the troll starting area. It's not really about wanting no risk or nice quiet strolls through the countryside. Rather it's about wanting all the combat - if there has to be combat- to come from mobs.
Gathering herbs and mining ore isn't a low challenge endeavor when you're playing the carebear challenge to reach max level without killing anything. Especially not when you double up on the challenge by having start over if the character get's killed.
The no kills, no deaths challenge is not a quiet stroll in the park.
That being said, I'm expecting to enjoy playing AoC on the normal servers.
(lots of great posts here!)
Your statement bolded here with the surrounding context implies that you are under the impression the game was designed with PvP set at the forefront. If that is your argument, I wish to counter that this is not the case. PvE is indisputably a part of this game, and the developers have highlighted time and again that they want PvE to be about exploration and enjoying the journey of growing the lore and nodes themselves. I say this merely to insure those reading that it is possible to "enjoy a nice stroll" if they so please, just with the added risk of possible encounters of other players. The chances of "in-the-wild" PvP occuring will likely hit a certain level at launch, but slowly dwindle as caravans and sieges become more tantalizing targets. The game is designed to please a large number of playstyles, and I think both PvP'ers and PvE'ers will be able to find enjoyment in AoC.
Now, with that said, I agree that PvP is just as important an aspect of this game that offers a range of effects for PvE'ers whether they will notice it or not. The two will be intertwined to a degree, and in some ways necessary for the other (i.e. economy, node influence, etc.). We'll have to wait a bit to see just how much that connection entails in detail.
2. All of the work to-date on how PVP works and interrelates to gear churn, resource availability, crafting satisfaction(the rate that crafting is needed) and many more "balance" issues would have to be replotted and maybe even preliminary code changed.
3. Any already conceived, balanced, and even just written as design doc plans for PVE mobs would all have to be redone because without PVP as part of the Plan, the Planned PVE would probably not be challenging enough.
4. Any work so far on quests based around PVP, the corruption system as a whole, the bounty system, and a host of interrelated things to these would have to be untangled from the code or if not coded yet would have to be redesigned.
That's a few things. Basically you would be asking them to trash everything done so far except maybe graphics but definitely planning and balancing and probably some coding already started.
Pkers killing unflagged players will suffer from a debut that reduces their stats, marks them on the map, rewards other player for killing them, and makes it so they might drop their gear when killed……..I’d say that’s a pretty big penalty and will make most players think twice before killing others for no good reason.[/quote]
Let us keep in mind that, initially, we will have TONS of players who buy the game cuz it's the NEWEST! BIGGEST! BADDEST! THING! OUT! THERE!
These players, most of them, won't read about the game, they won't study the deterrents to PK and ganking ... so the first month or so will likely be full of arsehats bein' arsehats.
Stick it out. Once they start realizing it's better to roll an alt than make up the corruption, they'll get sick of it.
I used to, when I was on a PVP server in WoW, get ganked. I'd return to my body, and get ganked again by some neanderthal with an IQ of about 5, but who was 20 levels above me. I learned, quickly, that if I kept respawning, they'd eventually get bored (within about three minutes usually) and leave. Their attention spans are low, and if they're not getting the visceral thrill of 'pissing off the lowbie player' then they don't stick it out.
I've also been a part of new games, new launches, and I've found that the community can self-police, making it difficult for arsehat players to continue. So give it a month, stick it out, and let's see what happens.
I still have hope, dammit!
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/#post-16639" rel="nofollow">Darthaden wrote:</a></div>
Probably not going to happen but as long as you don’t flag yourself for pvp getting ganked should be a rare thing in this game……it won’t be like pirates or sausans, more like manes (pretty sure I recognize your name from the black desert forums)
Pkers killing unflagged players will suffer from a debut that reduces their stats, marks them on the map, rewards other player for killing them, and makes it so they might drop their gear when killed……..I’d say that’s a pretty big penalty and will make most players think twice before killing others for no good reason.
</blockquote>
Let us keep in mind that, initially, we will have TONS of players who buy the game cuz it’s the NEWEST! BIGGEST! BADDEST! THING! OUT! THERE!
These players, most of them, won’t read about the game, they won’t study the deterrents to PK and ganking … so the first month or so will likely be full of arsehats bein’ arsehats.
Stick it out. Once they start realizing it’s better to roll an alt than make up the corruption, they’ll get sick of it.
I used to, when I was on a PVP server in WoW, get ganked. I’d return to my body, and get ganked again by some neanderthal with an IQ of about 5, but who was 20 levels above me. I learned, quickly, that if I kept respawning, they’d eventually get bored (within about three minutes usually) and leave. Their attention spans are low, and if they’re not getting the visceral thrill of ‘pissing off the lowbie player’ then they don’t stick it out.
I’ve also been a part of new games, new launches, and I’ve found that the community can self-police, making it difficult for arsehat players to continue. So give it a month, stick it out, and let’s see what happens.
I still have hope, dammit!
[/quote]
With the corruption system you will reduce ganking a lot. The reason is, is that players will lose combat effectiveness and they will also lose their gear if they die. If they are not getting anything off killing you except their jollies off they will end up combat ineffective for hours and they will be farmed by bounty hunters.
[/quote]
Sounds good to me. I am with that. Funny thing is a good friend of mine is already planning to be a PKer and a Bounty Hunter in this game. Though he wants to go and PK players for guilds who are ass hats on the server. If there is a guild that is known for being problems he wants to kill any of their members all the time. I think that is fair since he is ok with getting killed himself lol
[/quote]
Wait.... Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don't flag "combatant"? I just stay flagged "noncombatant"?
If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/9/#post-17445" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div>
I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
</blockquote>
Wait…. Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don’t flag “combatant”? I just stay flagged “noncombatant”?
If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
[/quote]
He is just proposing that as an idea. Which would be a good idea come to think of it. Just make it so they are a combatant but they just dont get flagged purple, or maybe make Bounty hunters who attack Red's Blue?
Which is fine because once the players realize that nothing in the Node Cities work unless a change occurs, they would be likely to agree to set a time limit that each city can remain standing. Since I was the one to suggest that as a solution for preventing stagnation, people won't have to discover that in game, I will be promoting that concept to PvE server advocates as one of the key components that would like be necessary for the server to function well.
I don't understand why 1000s of players would be subjected to major disappointment when all of this will be well-covered more than a year in advance of the first alpha.
Plenty of people spend months building in Minecraft and Landmark only to tear down, move to a new location and spend months building something new. Millions of people love doing that.
People willing to play on the PvE server would go in knowing that there's a great deal of risk that they may not enjoy the consequences of having no PvP combat...and they are free to jump server whenever they feel it isn't fun.
This is a non-issue
[quote]2. All of the work to-date on how PVP works and interrelates to gear churn, resource availability, crafting satisfaction(the rate that crafting is needed) and many more “balance” issues would have to be replotted and maybe even preliminary code changed.[/quote]
Nope. The don't have to be replotted. The players just have to struggle to adapt.
If they enjoy playing as is, well, they're paying they're subs for fun.
If they don't enjoy playing as is, the devs sunset the server and replace it with a normal one when the server pop drops below xxx.
[quote]3. Any already conceived, balanced, and even just written as design doc plans for PVE mobs would all have to be redone because without PVP as part of the Plan, the Planned PVE would probably not be challenging enough.[/quote}
Challenging enough for what?
A PvE server is likely to be a casual challenge server. Also likely to be the ultimate "theatre RP" server.
Why would that not be a valid ruleset for a server if enough people enjoy playing on it?
[quote]4. Any work so far on quests based around PVP, the corruption system as a whole, the bounty system, and a host of interrelated things to these would have to be untangled from the code or if not coded yet would have to be redesigned.[/quote]
Nope. You just let the server play out as is...same as the other servers. And the players have to deal with whatever mess arises.
In that sense it's kind of a risk server. It's a kind of mad scientist experiment.
[quote]That’s a few things. Basically you would be asking them to trash everything done so far except maybe graphics but definitely planning and balancing and probably some coding already started.[/quote]
The only thing they should change is turning the PvP combat off - and then let the server sink or swim.
"We told you not enough people would like it."
I doubt that whatever PVP work they have done can just be "shut off". Not unless that planned to have that option from the start. MMOs are much more complicated than that.
It does not matter because the Developers already have a direction they want to go in and they should. Its about time Developers forget trying to make everyone happy, driving up the MMORPG development cost and then ending up with an MMORPG that no one wants to play except if its free.
You can have a great Idea. But the Developers Already have a direction they are going in. They already said they are NOT splitting the MMORPG community. So while it might be a good idea, it will cost money and development time which can be better spent on doing stuff like ships and the underworld. Those would be more valuable than wasting money on the PVE crowd who just wants a PVE game when this is a PVP focused game. Having more content that players will spend more time in meaning they stay subbed longer is better than making the PVE crowd happy who in the end will get bored because there is a lot less to do just because the developers had to spend time redesigning their game for a PVE server. Now if PVEers want to contribute least say another 3 Million Dollars to the project for the time that it will take to built another server figure out how to integrate that with the current client and all. Then let's talk. But I dont see that money coming forward to spend developing a PVE server.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/please-dont-force-us-to-be-victims-of-pvpers/page/9/#post-17445" rel="nofollow">Ayren wrote:</a></div>
I imagine it will likely be more than just bounty hunters since anyone who wants to attack a corrupted player doesn’t have to flag as a combatant due to the game treating them just like a PvE monster. That means most of the general population will probably go after them as well since they are likely to drop gear and are, at that point, significantly weaker than they would be otherwise. And most certainly so will other PKers, who will likely turn on them like sharks in a blood frenzy. Suddenly the PKer becomes content for everyone else. Kind of poetic justice actually.
</blockquote>
Wait…. Whaaat? If I attack a corrupt player I don’t flag “combatant”? I just stay flagged “noncombatant”?
If by some weird fate I lose then I take a noncombatant xp debt hit?
[/quote]
I'll have to find the quote in the Q/A answers I've been reading but it was something that Steven said regarding when people get corruption. Not sure where I found it. I'll go digging and post it, if I can find it.
If this game's PVP can actually be "shut off" without causing a software meltdown, why not put PVE server fans to the test and make those servers a KS stretch goal?
If this game’s PVP can actually be “shut off” without causing a software meltdown, why not put PVE server fans to the test and make those servers a KS stretch goal?
[/quote]
Sure if the Stretch goal is over 3 million. That will be 10% of what the investment from private funding is out there. Likely that might not be enough because you will need to find systems that will replace PVP systems. The problem is, is all the time that will need to go into the developing that AI so it is not scripted to the point there is no change ever on a PVE server. You cannot script PVP. That is why you dont need to spend countless hours on PVE scripting.
Likely if you want a PVE environment to replace PVP you will need to over power PVE. For example you might have a red dragon flight that attacks a levle 6 node. That red dragon flight is several thousand smaller dragons all over the node and several massive dragons. You have to keep them from destroying 9 of 10 objectives. It has to be something so tough that it will take a few hundred players throughout the zone doing something vs a PVP siege which is very unpredictable.
We agree.
Having one server that turns off the PvP combat doesn't derail or impede development or release at all.
At most the code for turning off PvP combat is going to be 40 man hours. The devs have more than enough money for that.
The devs shouldn't waste any time "developing" a PvE server. Turn off the PvP combat code.
If the PvEers don't like playing on it, shut it down and replace it with normal. If they do like playing on it and the have a population high enough to keep it running, let it run.
Only tech/production reasons not to have a PvE server is if that's going to negatively impact the normal servers in some way.
Sure if the Stretch goal is over 3 million. That will be 10% of what the investment from private funding is out there. Likely that might not be enough because you will need to find systems that will replace PVP systems. The problem is, is all the time that will need to go into the developing that AI so it is not scripted to the point there is no change ever on a PVE server. You cannot script PVP. That is why you don't need to spend countless hours on PVE scripting. [/quote]
Again. No.
Just turn of the the PvP combat and let the server sink or swim.
The devs don't have to replace any systems whatsover.
The change will be driven by the players... it just won't involve players killing players.