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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I don't mind you questioning the authenticity of my experience, but I don't really want to derail the conversation any longer. It doesn't matter if it's level 60 vs level 15 or level 50 vs level 40. If a player goes out of their way to repeatedly kill lower level players, especially the same player repeatedly, it's griefing. There should be stiff penalties to dissuade that kind of behavior. It sounds like the one AoC intends will be decent, but I still advocate taking it that step further and making the corpse run of a red player very unpleasant.
Just a thought.[/quote]
All of this is PVP that I would welcome, under the terms stated. The development of personal story has a lot of appeal, even in this manner, to an RPer.
If you really want to spend a lot of time playing red characters without negatively impacting your main character, just create alts that you don’t mind getting corrupted. Play them like zombies…zombies don’t need gear.
[/quote]
Actually, this is why I think corruption should be account wide. What/if you drop anything while corrupted is determined on how much corruption you have. One or two kills will not break your entire bank and make you start over, but continual targeting of lower levels characters (and taking their gathering materials) should come with consequences. Risk vs. reward.
they want to minimise pointless killing, but Why does a flagged played get so harsh penalties? If i’m flagged red I have a chance to drop items that’s fine, and i’m also hunted by other non flagged players for bounty, thats fine too, but In a sandbox style game what is the benefit of me PKing a non flagged player? Do they drop loot or coin as well?
If I as a flagged player drop loot and bounties for non flagged players benefit, what benefit do I get from becoming flagged in the first place?
If this is a true risk vs reward game then becoming flagged should offer reward as well ex: chance of loot drop lower% than a flagged player maybe, % of carried coin etc, which would then make a banking system important, so you dont carry all your valuables at one time.
Either give everyone Risk, flagged and non flagged or I say remove the penalties, your going to be hunted for bounties anyway by anti PK squats if u get to anoying to the locals.
Currently there seems to be no reward for being flagged and its all risk only.
I’m not asking for it to be fair, But at least make both sides worth it.
just my 2cents, I’m from old school, PvP games The Realm/UO/EQ/Shadowbane etc where risk, reward and loss was a thing.
[/quote]
Pretty Much this.... you can say "oh but you do gain materials for killing players" but the thing is my gear will probably be worth alot more then what you get from killing a player.
I don't mind loosing gear if i have a chance of optaining Some gear from the Player i killed.
The hole idea of them saying i can flag and kill other players but i never should, is stupid. Why should they add in a flag system and then put so harsh penalties but allmost no reward for the people that want to take the risk?
Allso for the people saying that pk is stupid/childish, if i come to a node with fx 20 rogues and start a massecre, would that not affect the node? Killing the gathers, crafters and the defenders will halt the progress of the node, right?
Is it still not just pk?
I Wish that this game had the same idea of pk as eve (I dont play it since i prefere games with playstyle like wow/bdo), make it possible to loot the other players gear even if it have a very low chance of happening...
As i said Before and Will say again... I don't mind getting the triple exp and material loss.... that's fine.. but the main issue is that by being a red player i Will never gain anything and allso loose combat effectiveness? Buuuullsh*t.
I do personally feel ‘corruption’ should however be account wide to prevent character flipping and can only depreciate* while logged on. ‘If they want to use multiple accounts then at least they are paying more sub fees.
the penalties should fit the crime.
I however do not agree that all PK’rs are “arsehats” and that many players easily forget this is consenting ‘role play’ and in so agreeing to the terms must respect and appreciate the right to play an alignment, be it lawful good to chaotic evil however that player wishes to be.
There will be victims, there will be criminals and there will be justice.
I find that prospect exciting.
[/quote]
I love your reply <3
I personally want to Play as the criminal, the outlaw, the hunted but why would that make me honorless? I wonder why most mmos doesn't want "criminals/pk'ers" in their game... there Will allways be murder and mayhem but in our magical world the gods make criminals loose gear while the person he/She killed looses materials and the criminal for some weird reason becomes worse at killing?
Wut? O.o
I don’t mind loosing gear if i have a chance of optaining Some gear from the Player i killed.
The hole idea of them saying i can flag and kill other players but i never should, is stupid. Why should they add in a flag system and then put so harsh penalties but allmost no reward for the people that want to take the risk?
Allso for the people saying that pk is stupid/childish, if i come to a node with fx 20 rogues and start a massecre, would that not affect the node? Killing the gathers, crafters and the defenders will halt the progress of the node, right?
Is it still not just pk?
I Wish that this game had the same idea of pk as eve (I dont play it since i prefere games with playstyle like wow/bdo), make it possible to loot the other players gear even if it have a very low chance of happening…
As i said Before and Will say again… I don’t mind getting the triple exp and material loss…. that’s fine.. but the main issue is that by being a red player i Will never gain anything and allso loose combat effectiveness? Buuuullsh*t.[/quote]
You'll only be getting raw materials as loot if you're attacking non-combatants and combatants. If you want gear, you'll need to kill avatars that are red/corrupted.
There are 3 states associated with avatar v avatar combat. If you want to kill avatars and face the least penalties, the best state to be in is purple/combatant and kill avatars that are purple/combatant or red/corrupted. It's your choice to remain in the red/corrupted state and receive increasingly high penalties.
Everything that happens within the zone of influence will affect the node. I don't know that starting a massacre will be the best route for disrupting a node. If the main thing people are doing in that zone of influence is mining, blowing up the mine is probably going to be more disruptive to the node than killing the miners. Your own node will probably be generating tasks for people in you region to go blow up the node with rewards that include gear or raw materials that can be used to have gear crafted. So, it's probably pretty stupid to go massacre a bunch of non-combatants and murder folk until your gear breaks and drops. If you just want to massacre a bunch of people in an enemy zone and not deal with dropping gear, you should stealth in and focus on attack avatars flagged purple/combatant. That way you will remain purple/combatant and accrue the least death penalties if you die... and no penalties if you survive.
Don't worry about whether other people think your decisions are stupid or childish. You can decide for yourself which is the wiser choice.
Why is it so important for you to remain red/corrupted if you don't gain anything and get triple xp debt + drop your gear? Especially since massacring non-combatants will probably be the least effective method of disrupting a node??
The honorable thing to do would be to attack combatants who are your level or higher. Or to attack corrupted. It is dishonorable to attack non-combatants - especially non-combatants who are significantly lower than your level.
The penalties associated with corruption reflect that.
An honorable criminal/outlaw would do stuff like blow up enemy buildings without killing non-combatants.
If you attack non-combatants, you are attacking someone who has not given consent. Especially if you are invading enemy territory to attack non-combatants. Even more so if jump a solo avatar while she's mining and she asks you to please leave her alone. And even more so if that's being asked by the avatar's player for real world reasons rather than the avatar for in-game reasons.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/5/#post-18984" rel="nofollow">Quisari wrote:</a></div>
Pretty Much this…. you can say “oh but you do gain materials for killing players” but the thing is my gear will probably be worth alot more then what you get from killing a player.
I don’t mind loosing gear if i have a chance of optaining Some gear from the Player i killed.
The hole idea of them saying i can flag and kill other players but i never should, is stupid. Why should they add in a flag system and then put so harsh penalties but allmost no reward for the people that want to take the risk?
Allso for the people saying that pk is stupid/childish, if i come to a node with fx 20 rogues and start a massecre, would that not affect the node? Killing the gathers, crafters and the defenders will halt the progress of the node, right?
Is it still not just pk?
I Wish that this game had the same idea of pk as eve (I dont play it since i prefere games with playstyle like wow/bdo), make it possible to loot the other players gear even if it have a very low chance of happening…
As i said Before and Will say again… I don’t mind getting the triple exp and material loss…. that’s fine.. but the main issue is that by being a red player i Will never gain anything and allso loose combat effectiveness? Buuuullsh*t.
</blockquote>
You’ll only be getting raw materials as loot if you’re attacking non-combatants and combatants. If you want gear, you’ll need to kill avatars that are red/corrupted.
There are 3 states associated with avatar v avatar combat. If you want to kill avatars and face the least penalties, the best state to be in is purple/combatant and kill avatars that are purple/combatant or red/corrupted. It’s your choice to remain in the red/corrupted state and receive increasingly high penalties.
Everything that happens within the zone of influence will affect the node. I don’t know that starting a massacre will be the best route for disrupting a node. If the main thing people are doing in that zone of influence is mining, blowing up the mine is probably going to be more disruptive to the node than killing the miners. Your own node will probably be generating tasks for people in you region to go blow up the node with rewards that include gear or raw materials that can be used to have gear crafted. So, it’s probably pretty stupid to go massacre a bunch of non-combatants and murder folk until your gear breaks and drops. If you just want to massacre a bunch of people in an enemy zone and not deal with dropping gear, you should stealth in and focus on attack avatars flagged purple/combatant. That way you will remain purple/combatant and accrue the least death penalties if you die… and no penalties if you survive.
Don’t worry about whether other people think your decisions are stupid or childish. You can decide for yourself which is the wiser choice.
Why is it so important for you to remain red/corrupted if you don’t gain anything and get triple xp debt + drop your gear? Especially since massacring non-combatants will probably be the least effective method of disrupting a node??
[/quote]
True and in that idea of a massecre, you would burn down buildings and destroying everything you can ^^ but the issue ain't that. The issue is that they allow you to kill people but by doing that you reduce your combat effectiveness.... if you were doing a 20+ man raid on a node you Will at some point kill a lower lvl charector... though if you are able to "flag" on the node it self, it might give you "free" pvp as in no penalty for killing people belonging to the node.
The reason why being perm red is importent for me is the fantasy/rp of being a known gang/guild of killers :p might sound stupid but i just want a game Where i can do that in and still be viable :D allso the reason why im diacussing the penalties :)
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/5/#post-18987" rel="nofollow">Quisari wrote:</a></div>
I personally want to Play as the criminal, the outlaw, the hunted but why would that make me honorless? I wonder why most mmos doesn’t want “criminals/pk’ers” in their game… there Will allways be murder and mayhem but in our magical world the gods make criminals loose gear while the person he/She killed looses materials and the criminal for some weird reason becomes worse at killing?
</blockquote>
The honorable thing to do would be to attack combatants who are your level or higher. Or to attack corrupted. It is dishonorable to attack non-combatants – especially non-combatants who are significantly lower than your level.
The penalties associated with corruption reflect that.
An honorable criminal/outlaw would do stuff like blow up enemy buildings without killing non-combatants.
If you attack non-combatants, you are attacking someone who has not given consent. Especially if you are invading enemy territory to attack non-combatants. Even more so if jump a solo avatar while she’s mining and she asks you to please leave her alone. And even more so if that’s being asked by the avatar’s player for real world reasons rather than the avatar for in-game reasons.
[/quote]
Ofc you would attack players around your own lvl, there is NOTHING fun in killing lower lvled people besides rp raiding towns/nodes but those kills are not for just killing lowbies.. that's just raiding a town for everything you could get of value...
I do not have the idea of Running around in a lvl 10 zone fx as a lvl 50+ in my head, though you might See a party of reds ride through it ^^
I have no intentions of seeking out players that is below me for my own personal enjoymemt, that would simply be boring.
Maybe instead of gear loss, you could be put in jail? Only an idea :) but someone stated that gearing Will not be too tough so who knows... gear might be easy Enough to get that a gear drop is more of an annoyance then a harsh punishment ^^
Though the hole conscent to attack/kill people in game feels weird to me... ^^
On the EQNext forums, the quickest way to get banned from the forums for a week or so was to be in a discussion about consensual PvP.
PKs are players who prey on non-combatants who are significantly weaker or lower level.
If your Bartle score places you as a Killer/Achiever/Socializer/Explorer or an Achiever/Killer/Socializer Explorer (KA or AK) then the primary reason you play RPGs is to kill stuff. From the KA/AK perspective player's avatar is just content.
Anything that is possible for you to kill is fair game to kill. The mere fact that an avatar is in a state that it can be killed is automatic consent to be killed.
If your Bartle score places you as an Explorer/Socializer/Achiever/Killer or a Socializer/Explorer/Killer/Achiever (ES or SE) then the primary reasons you play RPGs is to explore the world and socialize with other players. Killing stuff is of low interest.
I am an ESAK. E-87% K-0%
That 0% does not literally mean I have zero interest in killing stuff. It does accurately represent that killing stuff is of least interest to me and couldn't be of any lower interest to me. For me, the purpose of killing stuff is so I can gain the stats I need to continue exploring the world.
ES/SEs are socializers who care greatly about people - whether that's the players or avatars. Their focus is going to be on helping people - again both player or avatar.
From the ES/SE perspective avatars are not considered to be just something else to kill because it's possible to kill. An ES/SE typically does not enter PvP space because they want to engage in PvP combat. They enter into PvP space in order to explore and unknown location or to socialize with the people in that location - socializing with NPCs in PvP space being just as important as socializing with avatars.
Here's the part that typically makes PvPers go ballistic:
If an ES/SE gets flagged for PvP combat when they enter a PvP zone, from their perspective they are not giving consent to be attacked. If they could socialize in and explore the location without being flagged, they would not flag for PvP combat. ES/SE are going to be obsessed with completely exploring the world. Just as an AK/KA will be obsessed raiding and obtaining BiS gear.
From the ES/SE perspective, they should be allowed to travel through PvP space without being attacked by other players as long as they don't initiate an attack. And killing their avatar when the player has not voiced consent is a violation that inherently makes a player who kills their avatar anyway an asshat...well, I really am trying to keep the forums civil, but...
Killing an ES/SE's avatar when the player has stated they do not want to engage in PvP combat is going to cause them to rage.
From the KA/AK perspective, if your avatar is in a PvP zone and is flagged such that PvP combat is possible, thee player has given implied consent. And that implied consent overrides any vocal refutations from the player. If you don't want to be killed, you shouldn't be flagged for PvP combat. If you don't want to engage in PvP combat, you shouldn't be travelling through PvP spaces.
The notion of a non-combatant immune to PvP combat traveling through a PvP will typically cause a KA/AK to rage.
At the same time, for some reason, it has recently become a thing for KA/AKs to want MMORPGs to be OWPVP and have everyone on the same server. Their solution to the conflict between KA/AKs and ES/SEs being that everyone should be flagged for PvP combat, but the KA/AKs will protect the ES/SEs if the ES/SEs hire them or craft for them. Or if in the same guild, the KA/AKs will hunt down any PKs.
Which is all bull to the ES/SEs because from their perspective being in PvP space does not equal consent to engage in PvP combat. Continuing to attack their avatar when the player has refused consent is a moral violation of the highest caliber in the MMORPG genre.
In the case of AoC, the players with that perspective are saying, "We love the features of the game, but we need our own server because being in PvP space does not equal consent for PvP combat. And we know that PvPers will not agree to those terms. Even if most would, too many people will attack us when we don't want to participate in PvP combat."
Because ES/SEs are socializers who place a high value on the lives of avatars as well as players, offering to protect their avatars by killing other people's avatars for them is a ridiculous offer. ES/SEs don't want people killing avatars for them... or really killing avatars at all.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/4/#post-18391" rel="nofollow">Whocando wrote:</a></div>
I however do not agree that all PK’rs are “arsehats” and that many players easily forget this is consenting ‘role play’ and in so agreeing to the terms must respect and appreciate the right to play an alignment, be it lawful good to chaotic evil however that player wishes to be.
</blockquote>
On the EQNext forums, the quickest way to get banned from the forums for a week or so was to be in a discussion about consensual PvP.
PKs are players who prey on non-combatants who are significantly weaker or lower level.
If your Bartle score places you as a Killer/Achiever/Socializer/Explorer or an Achiever/Killer/Socializer Explorer (KA or AK) then the primary reason you play RPGs is to kill stuff. From the KA/AK perspective player’s avatar is just content.
Anything that is possible for you to kill is fair game to kill. The mere fact that an avatar is in a state that it can be killed is automatic consent to be killed.
If your Bartle score places you as an Explorer/Socializer/Achiever/Killer or a Socializer/Explorer/Killer/Achiever (ES or SE) then the primary reasons you play RPGs is to explore the world and socialize with other players. Killing stuff is of low interest.
I am an ESAK. E-87% K-0%
That 0% does not literally mean I have zero interest in killing stuff. It does accurately represent that killing stuff is of least interest to me and couldn’t be of any lower interest to me. For me, the purpose of killing stuff is so I can gain the stats I need to continue exploring the world.
ES/SEs are socializers who care greatly about people – whether that’s the players or avatars. Their focus is going to be on helping people – again both player or avatar.
From the ES/SE perspective avatars are not considered to be just something else to kill because it’s possible to kill. An ES/SE typically does not enter PvP space because they want to engage in PvP combat. They enter into PvP space in order to explore and unknown location or to socialize with the people in that location – socializing with NPCs in PvP space being just as important as socializing with avatars.
Here’s the part that typically makes PvPers go ballistic:
If an ES/SE gets flagged for PvP combat when they enter a PvP zone, from their perspective they are not giving consent to be attacked. If they could socialize in and explore the location without being flagged, they would not flag for PvP combat. ES/SE are going to be obsessed with completely exploring the world. Just as an AK/KA will be obsessed raiding and obtaining BiS gear.
From the ES/SE perspective, they should be allowed to travel through PvP space without being attacked by other players as long as they don’t initiate an attack. And killing their avatar when the player has not voiced consent is a violation that inherently makes a player who kills their avatar anyway an asshat…well, I really am trying to keep the forums civil, but…
Killing an ES/SE’s avatar when the player has stated they do not want to engage in PvP combat is going to cause them to rage.
From the KA/AK perspective, if your avatar is in a PvP zone and is flagged such that PvP combat is possible, thee player has given implied consent. And that implied consent overrides any vocal refutations from the player. If you don’t want to be killed, you shouldn’t be flagged for PvP combat. If you don’t want to engage in PvP combat, you shouldn’t be travelling through PvP spaces.
The notion of a non-combatant immune to PvP combat traveling through a PvP will typically cause a KA/AK to rage.
At the same time, for some reason, it has recently become a thing for KA/AKs to want MMORPGs to be OWPVP and have everyone on the same server. Their solution to the conflict between KA/AKs and ES/SEs being that everyone should be flagged for PvP combat, but the KA/AKs will protect the ES/SEs if the ES/SEs hire them or craft for them. Or if in the same guild, the KA/AKs will hunt down any PKs.
Which is all bull to the ES/SEs because from their perspective being in PvP space does not equal consent to engage in PvP combat. Continuing to attack their avatar when the player has refused consent is a moral violation of the highest caliber in the MMORPG genre.
In the case of AoC, the players with that perspective are saying, “We love the features of the game, but we need our own server because being in PvP space does not equal consent for PvP combat. And we know that PvPers will not agree to those terms. Even if most would, too many people will attack us when we don’t want to participate in PvP combat.”
Because ES/SEs are socializers who place a high value on the lives of avatars as well as players, offering to protect their avatars by killing other people’s avatars for them is a ridiculous offer. ES/SEs don’t want people killing avatars for them… or really killing avatars at all.
[/quote]
Just an amazing read :) but yea... POWER TO OWPVP hehe xb would throw all the likes if i could :)
I do not have the idea of Running around in a lvl 10 zone fx as a lvl 50+ in my head, though you might See a party of reds ride through it ^^
I have no intentions of seeking out players that is below me for my own personal enjoymemt, that would simply be boring. [/quote]
Lots of people would say there is nothing fun about killing non-combatants or people who aren't in the mood to engage in PvP combat.
If you attack a non-combatant your own level you won't gain as much corruption. Though that won't mean much if you just keep murdering non-combatants.
[quote]Maybe instead of gear loss, you could be put in jail? Only an idea but someone stated that gearing Will not be too tough so who knows… gear might be easy Enough to get that a gear drop is more of an annoyance then a harsh punishment.[/quote]
Gear loss is more punishing than jail. How long does the character stay in jail? Is that going to be real world time so you just log out and wait a couple hours? Or in-game time? How much in-game jail time is each life worth?
[quote]Though the hole consent to attack/kill people in game feels weird to me.[/quote]
According to the current design of AoC, if you're playing the game it's all implied consent.
But, attacking a non-combatant is dishonorable, so that would cause the attacker's avatar to gain corruption.
Attacking a combatant or corrupted...someone already having engaged in PvP combat is honorable and will not cause you to gain corruption.
Again, seems like you should focus more on remaining purple - a combatant.
But, if you want to, as much as possible, play as a red/corrupted avatar... you can do that, too.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/5/#post-19034" rel="nofollow">Quisari wrote:</a></div>
Ofc you would attack players around your own lvl, there is NOTHING fun in killing lower lvled people besides rp raiding towns/nodes but those kills are not for just killing lowbies.. that’s just raiding a town for everything you could get of value…
I do not have the idea of Running around in a lvl 10 zone fx as a lvl 50+ in my head, though you might See a party of reds ride through it ^^
I have no intentions of seeking out players that is below me for my own personal enjoymemt, that would simply be boring.
</blockquote>
Lots of people would say there is nothing fun about killing non-combatants or people who aren’t in the mood to engage in PvP combat.
If you attack a non-combatant your own level you won’t gain as much corruption. Though that won’t mean much if you just keep murdering non-combatants.
<blockquote>Maybe instead of gear loss, you could be put in jail? Only an idea but someone stated that gearing Will not be too tough so who knows… gear might be easy Enough to get that a gear drop is more of an annoyance then a harsh punishment.
</blockquote>
Gear loss is more punishing than jail. How long does the character stay in jail? Is that going to be real world time so you just log out and wait a couple hours? Or in-game time? How much in-game jail time is each life worth?
<blockquote>Though the hole consent to attack/kill people in game feels weird to me.
</blockquote>
According to the current design of AoC, if you’re playing the game it’s all implied consent.
But, attacking a non-combatant is dishonorable, so that would cause the attacker’s avatar to gain corruption.
Attacking a combatant or corrupted…someone already having engaged in PvP combat is honorable and will not cause you to gain corruption.
Again, seems like you should focus more on remaining purple – a combatant.
But, if you want to, as much as possible, play as a red/corrupted avatar… you can do that, too.
[/quote]
True gear loss is more punishing but i think that depends more on how easy it is to get gear ^^ the jail system would be depending on how Many you have killed and the time spent is real time.. cant log out to wait for the time to pass so if you did get captured you would have to spend a certain amount of time in jail ^^ though it Should be escapable but Very hard to do so :p
Even if you kill a player the same LVL as you, you Will still get corruption and im fine with that, though the idea of reducing the players combat effectiveness is just bad design in my head..
Oh yea... the main reason why i think gear drop is an unacceptable punishment is because im used to upgrade systems and such.. So you spend an insane amount of Money and time to upgrade just 1 piece of your gear and that piece of gear can drop? Not cool at all :s but if we are talking craftable gear and decently easy to get gear, then I don't mind have a chance to drop a piece... but if you fx drop an item that you have spent 4-5 months getting and we could say all your gear it would be a horrible system... I Remember in Dayz, Where people would just stay away from any pvp because good gear was so hard to get that the pvp wasn't worth it... I Really dont want that kind of gameplay :/ we still dont Know enough About the game:/
Btw you are an amazing person to discuss with :) Really do Enjoy it :D
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/5/#post-19034" rel="nofollow">Quisari wrote:</a></div>
Ofc you would attack players around your own lvl, there is NOTHING fun in killing lower lvled people besides rp raiding towns/nodes but those kills are not for just killing lowbies.. that’s just raiding a town for everything you could get of value…
I do not have the idea of Running around in a lvl 10 zone fx as a lvl 50+ in my head, though you might See a party of reds ride through it ^^
I have no intentions of seeking out players that is below me for my own personal enjoymemt, that would simply be boring.
</blockquote>
Lots of people would say there is nothing fun about killing non-combatants or people who aren’t in the mood to engage in PvP combat.
If you attack a non-combatant your own level you won’t gain as much corruption. Though that won’t mean much if you just keep murdering non-combatants.
<blockquote>Maybe instead of gear loss, you could be put in jail? Only an idea but someone stated that gearing Will not be too tough so who knows… gear might be easy Enough to get that a gear drop is more of an annoyance then a harsh punishment.
</blockquote>
Gear loss is more punishing than jail. How long does the character stay in jail? Is that going to be real world time so you just log out and wait a couple hours? Or in-game time? How much in-game jail time is each life worth?
<blockquote>Though the hole consent to attack/kill people in game feels weird to me.
</blockquote>
According to the current design of AoC, if you’re playing the game it’s all implied consent.
But, attacking a non-combatant is dishonorable, so that would cause the attacker’s avatar to gain corruption.
Attacking a combatant or corrupted…someone already having engaged in PvP combat is honorable and will not cause you to gain corruption.
Again, seems like you should focus more on remaining purple – a combatant.
But, if you want to, as much as possible, play as a red/corrupted avatar… you can do that, too.
[/quote]
I agree, more over I dont think its implied rather its given. If you play you are at risk, based on the current design. Ive never completely bought into this approach but thats personal preference myself. I enjoy games that have dedicated PVP regions, similar to ESO and cyrodiil. That model has its own issues as well.
PKing is part of modern MMO's and its certainly not prohibitive. It is however a means to griefing and while that doesnt bother me particularly I think its problematic long term for any MMO. When conflict or potential conflict between players in game is present more often then less it can create fissures in the community. Of course there are remedies for this, you join a guild they cover your ass etc.
Still, this open system will exclude some players from the game they simply hate it. *shrug*
So then the goal becomes how to do you allow people to fight each-other knowing some of those above mentioned players are going to do what ever they can to turn that system more of a "non-ban-able harassment" situation then a pvp combat situation. I think this system is a good idea and works well in other games. That said the system will need to be tested to make sure its effective to point it needs to be while allowing people to attack each-other as well.
Being that 80% of hacks and exploits in any mmo relate to pvp. I think this (or any )systems integrity will be challenged constantly and have to be adapted to remain effective.
edit: whoever bought up the jail system , its been tried in other games and remains completely ineffective.
So a player trying to exploit the system to remain red constantly should encounter far more serious problem then say a first time offender call it the "no clean slate' plan for repeat or constant reds. The idea of this system is to prevent a behavior if it is not doing that then we need to adapt the system to do that job more effectively.
[/quote]
I do find it Funny how Some people Really dont want any owpvp but wants to Play a game that is heavy around pvp.... if I pk you and Some of your guildies, what is Going to Happens?
1. Your guild comes out and we end in a guild sæt. Lots of pvp
2. No One comes to help and you Know how much your guildies Will Help..
Yes pk needs to be punished but if you want to punish pk rather harshly just dont add it Into the game? Game is made for pvp with the sidedish of pve... look at what they have shown.. allmost all of it, have pvp relevance
And any good pvp game have owpvp.. random guild wars from a simple pk is amazing
I personally have no issue with open PvP and even loosing gear and mats to death. There are plenty of ways around that, from hiring guilds to protect you to bounty hunting yourself. Remember the rules apply to everyone, and someone who is trying to grief via repeated PK’s is subject to the same fate if you desire. Its all within the rules, heck you even have people in this thread adverting protection services.
As a crafter and healer type I’ll be able to barter my wares and talents to secure my game play. I like this aspect of sandboxes. It forces me to deal with people, build in game rep. I’ll also hire out for hits on people who continue to screw with me. The most important thing to do in this case is identify early the reputable protection guilds and its not a CARE BEAR game play at all. On the contrary, without you they don’t have contracts.
This is an example of the synergies I believe they are trying to create here.
So then the goal becomes how to do you allow people to fight each-other knowing some of those above mentioned players are going to do what ever they can to turn that system more of a “non-ban-able harassment” situation then a pvp combat situation. I think this system is a good idea and works well in other games. That said the system will need to be tested to make sure its effective to point it needs to be while allowing people to attack each-other as well.
Being that 80% of hacks and exploits in any mmo relate to pvp. I think this (or any )systems integrity will be challenged constantly and have to be adapted to remain effective.
edit: whoever bought up the jail system , its been tried in other games and remains completely ineffective.
[/quote]
I find the jail system works fine but Yea have Some issues sometimes ^^
There Will allways be idiots that Will try to ruin other players "fun" but Remember this game IS a pvp game.. . If people dont want owpvp/pk then there is other games that dont have it... trying to limit owpvp is rather stupid... you either have owpvp or you dont.. . And hacks/cheats Will allways be an issue :) Nothing to do About it, but Hope they ban and tighten the securety ^^
I think if they get this system right allot of people who are "anti-pvp" will enjoy the occasional scuffle
if they get it wrong it becomes GankAge2
I personally have no issue with open PvP and even loosing gear and mats to death. There are plenty of ways around that, from hiring guilds to protect you to bounty hunting yourself. Remember the rules apply to everyone, and someone who is trying to grief via repeated PK’s is subject to the same fate if you desire. Its all within the rules, heck you even have people in this thread adverting protection services.
As a crafter and healer type I’ll be able to barter my wares and talents to secure my game play. I like this aspect of sandboxes. It forces me to deal with people, build in game rep. I’ll also hire out for hits on people who continue to screw with me. The most important thing to do in this case is identify early the reputable protection guilds and its not a CARE BEAR game play at all. On the contrary, without you they don’t have contracts.
This is an example of the synergies I believe they are trying to create here.
[/quote]
Well said
The jail system in archeage is broken completely. Even Trion admits that :)
I personally have no issue with open PvP and even loosing gear and mats to death. There are plenty of ways around that, from hiring guilds to protect you to bounty hunting yourself. Remember the rules apply to everyone, and someone who is trying to grief via repeated PK’s is subject to the same fate if you desire. Its all within the rules, heck you even have people in this thread adverting protection services.
As a crafter and healer type I’ll be able to barter my wares and talents to secure my game play. I like this aspect of sandboxes. It forces me to deal with people, build in game rep. I’ll also hire out for hits on people who continue to screw with me. The most important thing to do in this case is identify early the reputable protection guilds and its not a CARE BEAR game play at all. On the contrary, without you they don’t have contracts.
This is an example of the synergies I believe they are trying to create here.
[/quote]
This one i love. Join a gang for protection!
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/6/#post-19117" rel="nofollow">Malic-Valdon wrote:</a></div>
The good news is there is a pretty good degree of clarity from the devs that there will be open world PvP in some form. This should really help people decide if that’s the kind of game they want to play. Arguing if its right or wrong or debating with people about what they should or should not think is fun game play is major waste of time IMHO. In my years in mmo’s its rare to find someone actually wrong, its even more rare to actually have someone admit it.
I personally have no issue with open PvP and even loosing gear and mats to death. There are plenty of ways around that, from hiring guilds to protect you to bounty hunting yourself. Remember the rules apply to everyone, and someone who is trying to grief via repeated PK’s is subject to the same fate if you desire. Its all within the rules, heck you even have people in this thread adverting protection services.
As a crafter and healer type I’ll be able to barter my wares and talents to secure my game play. I like this aspect of sandboxes. It forces me to deal with people, build in game rep. I’ll also hire out for hits on people who continue to screw with me. The most important thing to do in this case is identify early the reputable protection guilds and its not a CARE BEAR game play at all. On the contrary, without you they don’t have contracts.
This is an example of the synergies I believe they are trying to create here.
</blockquote>
This one i love. Join a gang for protection!
[/quote]
Or I give that gang gear at a discount and they ensure Im unharassed while I accumulate mats. Nice little sub game if you ask me. I like to heal and craft, gang likes to pvp, lets make a deal.
The time and cost to replace lost gear + the time it takes to remove corruption. If AoC has social progression, I would add reduction to reputation while corrupted such that NPC either would sell at a higher rate. Some might flee and refuse to speak with you at all.
Similar to KOA: Reckoning.
Problem with making jail escapade is that becomes just another fun challenge for some players.
[quote]Even if you kill a player the same LVL as you, you Will still get corruption and im fine with that, though the idea of reducing the players combat effectiveness is just bad design in my head.. [/quote]
If you kill a non-combatant, you will get corruption. If you kill a combatant or a corrupted avatar, you will not gain corruption.
[quote]Oh yea… the main reason why i think gear drop is an unacceptable punishment is because im used to upgrade systems and such.. So you spend an insane amount of Money and time to upgrade just 1 piece of your gear and that piece of gear can drop? [/quote]
Yes. Because that means you will be less likely to spend a lot of time killing non-combatants who don't want to fight and most of your combat time attacking combatants and corrupted who do like to fight.
If you only attack combatants and corrupted, you don't have to worry about dropping gear and if you die, you suffer the least death penalties.
Better to stay purple rather than red if you don't want to lose gear.
And means you can be more sure you're fighting with players who enjoy PvP combat rather than attacking the avatars of people who don't like PvP combat.
[quote]Not cool at all :s but if we are talking craftable gear and decently easy to get gear, then I don’t mind have a chance to drop a piece… but if you fx drop an item that you have spent 4-5 months getting and we could say all your gear it would be a horrible system… I Remember in Dayz, Where people would just stay away from any pvp because good gear was so hard to get that the pvp wasn’t worth it… I Really dont want that kind of gameplay :/ we still dont Know enough About the game:/[/quote]
If it was easy to get gear, you wouldn't care about the difference between attacking the avatars of players who don't like to fight and attacking the avatars of players who do like to fight.
Green, purple, red...all the same to you.
The current system is designed to have people leaving greens alone for the most part. Green basically represents players who want to avoid PvP combat.
If you only attack purples and reds, you don't have to worry about losing that gear you love and you can be sure the players controlling those avatars enjoy PvP combat and are in the mood to fight.
[quote]Btw you are an amazing person to discuss with. [/quote]
Awesome! Glad some people are having fun.
PvP is a really tough topic to discuss without pissing people off.
Have a great day everyone!
Something tells me there will be a great number of flagged players there for you to choose from. Why would this be insufficient?
Thank you for this response/explanation; it's perfect.
[quote quote=19038]Which is all bull to the ES/SEs because from their perspective being in PvP space does not equal consent to engage in PvP combat. Continuing to attack their avatar when the player has refused consent is a moral violation of the highest caliber in the MMORPG genre.
In the case of AoC, the players with that perspective are saying, “We love the features of the game, but we need our own server because being in PvP space does not equal consent for PvP combat. And we know that PvPers will not agree to those terms. Even if most would, too many people will attack us when we don’t want to participate in PvP combat.”
Because ES/SEs are socializers who place a high value on the lives of avatars as well as players, offering to protect their avatars by killing other people’s avatars for them is a ridiculous offer. ES/SEs don’t want people killing avatars for them… or really killing avatars at all.[/quote]
This also is perfect, and you hit on the crux of the problem with you statements about ES/SEs and our perspectives. Thank you for that insight.
[quote quote=19045]though the idea of reducing the players combat effectiveness is just bad design in my head..[/quote]
You don't seem to be getting the idea. <strong>The reduced combat effectiveness is a means to guide you, as a PKer, to avoid PK (dishonorable kills) and work toward PVP with already-flagged players. </strong> This is something that the devs at Intrepid have done in order to help wee little mainly PVE bunnies like myself from having to deal with a ganking arsehat; the penalties for being a ganking arsehat are meant to deter players from <em>being</em> ganking arsehats, and focus more on combat-ready PVP players. It is a specific design with a specific purpose.
[quote quote=19116]Game is made for pvp with the sidedish of pve… look at what they have shown.. allmost all of it, have pvp relevance /And any good pvp game have owpvp.. random guild wars from a simple pk is amazing[/quote]
Actually, you're mistaken in your above quote. The game is geared around a world that grows and changes with the players. The mechanism of the change is PVP; however, the PVEers will obtain new PVE quests as the nodes change.
It's a fallacy that younger players seem to think that, because it's "always been this way" (read, during the duration of their time playing games) and "...because PVP is the "main" goal of the game, PVEers should just suck it up and accept being PKd as part and parcel of their game experience." In your, and others' like you, view points, everything is justified because you believe that the overarching goal of the game is PVP. You don't seem to realize that many of us who've been at this a bit longer than you have actually remember games that separated servers for PVP and PVE and, in many games, even being active in OWPVP, one could still refuse to flag oneself for PVP, thus eliminating the need to deal with harassing gankers. There was, believe it or not, game life before PVP became the "normal."
Perhaps you should watch some of the twitch streams. I think it was yesterday's in which the devs stated, flat-out, "If you're looking for a game that lets you camp a spawn point and PK players endlessly, this is not your game."
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/gear-loss-as-a-red-player/page/6/#post-19095" rel="nofollow">TheCouchNerd wrote:</a></div>
I would like to see severe punishment for pks, gear loss is a good one, and maybe make it so you can’t remove your gear when you turn corrupt otherwise there’s not much of a penalty to pking if you can just run home and stash the gear you don’t want to lose. It also seems like the devs don’t want to encourage pking so we will see some type of punishment for sure.
</blockquote>
I do find it Funny how Some people Really dont want any owpvp but wants to Play a game that is heavy around pvp…. if I pk you and Some of your guildies, what is Going to Happens?
1. Your guild comes out and we end in a guild sæt. Lots of pvp
2. No One comes to help and you Know how much your guildies Will Help..
Yes pk needs to be punished but if you want to punish pk rather harshly just dont add it Into the game? Game is made for pvp with the sidedish of pve… look at what they have shown.. allmost all of it, have pvp relevance
And any good pvp game have owpvp.. random guild wars from a simple pk is amazing
[/quote]
I find it funny how people think they know what other people want...
I want open world pvp but it should be like how the devs want it, meaningful and not a gank fest. If you pk and gank someone outside the open world pvp system you should be punished. Gear drop is a severe punishment and they have talked about having it in the game. I'm all for that.