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Please keep religion optional

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Comments

  • So i cant be an atheist drunken dwarf?
  • So i cant be an atheist drunken dwarf?
    If you want to do that then go ahead 
  • So i cant be an atheist drunken dwarf?

    Dwarves would definitely be stubborn enough to deny something that exists.. So why not? Haha. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I'm atheist in real life but you know... Saying "keep religion optional" in my opinion is like saying "keep classes/races optional".
    It's just part of the game and game world. It has nothing to do with real-life.
    When you go into the new world and are supposed to be a part of it, you can't just ignore the part you don't like.

    In the game you will see gods and proof of them existing. Ignoring that seems just weird and unnatural.

    But I believe the devs said you CAN be atheist in game. You will just miss a lot of cool lore and part of the game.
  • *stab* stab* why wont this thread die !
  • nagash said:
    *stab* stab* why wont this thread die !

    Because you keep posting in it! :D
  • Kasyee said:
    I'm atheist in real life but you know... Saying "keep religion optional" in my opinion is like saying "keep classes/races optional".
    It's just part of the game and game world. It has nothing to do with real-life.
    When you go into the new world and are supposed to be a part of it, you can't just ignore the part you don't like.

    In the game you will see gods and proof of them existing. Ignoring that seems just weird and unnatural.

    But I believe the devs said you CAN be atheist in game. You will just miss a lot of cool lore and part of the game.

    I hope we get a chance to defeat a God in a raid one day. (a few expansions after release hopefully) Heh. 

    Just because the gods exist doesn't mean we have to worship them. You could study the lore to give you better understanding in how to defeat the God. 

    I agree, it is strange to imagine an atheist in Ashes... A non-theistic God hater however is very likely to exist and will be fun to role play. @nagash the god of death killed my dog, I vow to avenge fluffy! Your doggy death will not be in vain! 
  • Well its either atheist or the lord and savior Cheesus!  :D
  • Kasyee said:
    I'm atheist in real life but you know... Saying "keep religion optional" in my opinion is like saying "keep classes/races optional".
    It's just part of the game and game world. It has nothing to do with real-life.
    When you go into the new world and are supposed to be a part of it, you can't just ignore the part you don't like.

    In the game you will see gods and proof of them existing. Ignoring that seems just weird and unnatural.

    But I believe the devs said you CAN be atheist in game. You will just miss a lot of cool lore and part of the game.

    I hope we get a chance to defeat a God in a raid one day. (a few expansions after release hopefully) Heh. 

    Just because the gods exist doesn't mean we have to worship them. You could study the lore to give you better understanding in how to defeat the God. 

    I agree, it is strange to imagine an atheist in Ashes... A non-theistic God hater however is very likely to exist and will be fun to role play. @nagash the god of death killed my dog, I vow to avenge fluffy! Your doggy death will not be in vain! 
    Thats the spirt but I should warn you.

    There will be no escape, no blessed oblivion. I can end your life as easily as I can extinguish a candle, and before your corpse is cold, I can reach out and grasp your soul. You will be my slave for all eternity, and I shall laugh at the depths of your pain. Such is the power of Nagash
  • oh another question, could religious crusades be a thing?
  • oh another question, could religious crusades be a thing?
    well, if you besiege another node that is a religious node but from another god then your node....that would be a crusade
  • Eh I still think I'm going with that butterfly.
  • Everything in game is optional 

    Amen to that!
  • @AutumnWillow
    In Ashes, the gods are too ubiquitous for any religion to not involve a belief in the existence of gods. Even the Scientific Metropolis will be involved in the belief of the Ashes pantheon because the Ashes pantheon will impact that city and it's citizens. They don't have to worship them, but they do have to believe and the do have to respond to however the gods impact their lives.
    That is all about the core pillar Meaningful Conflict.


    If you live in a desert, you can study Fire magic that does not involve a belief in snow.
    If you live in a tundra, you cannot study Fire magic without also covering how cold and snow will interact with Fire magic. In the tundra, the study of Fire magic has to include belief in snow.
  • Should the gods have a physical presence in the game then it is no longer a belief system as it is about acknowledgement and trust.

    My character will have to acknowledge the presence of the beings but may or may not acknowledge their supreme divinity, either singly or as a whole. Those he does acknowledge may or may not earn his trust. Where he does not acknowledge divinity, he will not place trust.

    Belief, for him, is a trust in the unknowable. Can he trust another person inexplicably? Unknown, but believing in the inherent goodness of a friend is life affirming.

    Belief in an unseen and unknowable supreme being could require a level of trust that he might not have inside of himself.

    Acknowledgement of of a seen and knowable being does not require a sense of belief for him.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017

    Can I live in a fantasy world where just about anything is possible, and see these powerful beings(gods) and feel that they are not Gods?

    Can I firmly believe that they are indeed powerful entities but decide that they are not Gods and not worthy of devotion or worship?

    Can I not have a non delusional outlook in believing those things?

  • @Bringslite Yes haha, I'm with you on that. You could come to the conclusion (depending on lore) that the gods just want to use the inhabitants as pawns. Making you decide to live a non-theistic way of life despite acknowledging their existence. 

    @Dygz okay, you are still ignoring the 3 definitions of non-theistic and insisting on your definition that non-theistic isn't not just not involving the belief, but lacking the belief of God. 

    Cutting your fingernails is a non-theistic action that does not involve the belief of god or gods. Just because you don't involve the belief doesn't mean you lack the belief in that action. 

    Let's look at your other argument of ubiquity requiring involvement. So using your example of requiring the understanding of how snow in order to use Fire magic.
    It will still be called Fire magic because it is characterized by it's focus on Fire.

    Non-Fire Magic like Cold Magic will probably also require an understanding of how heat interacts with the Cold Magic to fully control it. We can call the other kinds of magic non-fire magic because they aren't characterized by their focus in Fire even though heat will probably be involved in all magic. Cold Magic is a non-fire magic that focuses its studies on the effects of cold for example. 

    theistic
    θiːˈɪstɪk/
    adjective
    1. relating to or characterized by belief in the existence of a god or gods.
      "theistic religions"

      non-theistic would therefore mean not relating to or characterized by  xxx.

    religion
    rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/
    noun
    1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

      • a particular system of faith and worship.

      • a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

    Religion doesn't presuppose an involvement of gods. So a non-theistic religion simply is one that isn't characterized by it's belief of the existence of Gods. They can be affected by Gods, and make some decisions based on how the gods interact with the world but they don't have to be characterized by it.  

    Most religions are theistic religions but it doesn't mean that all religions must be focused only on the Gods of ashes of creation. It'll be nice if there were some non-theistic religions to follow and gain benefits from the the world of Ashes.



  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Nope. Non-theistic would not be applied to fingernail cutting.
    That is not the proper context for the usage of the word.

    You are also misapplying the use of non in the Fire magic example. Non would not be applied to Fire. Non would be applied to the belief in snow.

  • nagash said:
    Do you fear the gods mortal  o:)
    Does fear mortal the gods?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I'm not sure how did a discussion about religion became a debate on the English language? 

    What's wrong with a religion being either a worship of gods or other things in general? I don't think "non-theistic"  have the same meaning as "atheistic" it simply means you do not worship gods. 

    I cannot remember for the life of me, but there was a game (not MMO, I think) that had religions not relating to gods, and you would have to pick a religion or a system of belief and it will confer to you its respective bonus.

    A good example of a non-theistic religion would be:
    "You believe that you are the master of your own destiny. The gods are fickle and do not act towards your best interest. This self-belief has fortified your mind, but made you hostile towards followers of gods." 

    Monks are viewed as religious in general, but many of them strongly belief in the perfection of self more than the intervention of gods. 

    Merchants could subscribe to the belief of a God of Money or Trade, but they could subscribe to the worship of money itself. One favors you with better businesses, the other empowers you as you possess more gold. 

    In the end, I believe that more choices will benefit the game. And more important than that, I believe in the all-encompassing power of RNG and He Who Created It All, Sharif. 

    Cheers.
  • Dygz said:
    Nope. Non-theistic would not be applied to fingernail cutting.
    That is not the proper context for the usage of the word.

    You are also misapplying the use of non in the Fire magic example. Non would not be applied to Fire. Non would be applied to the belief in snow.

    It's an adjective, it's meant to describe or further define a noun. I just chose the act of nail-cutting because it's easier to understand why it doesn't involve god and also doesn't require the belief or the non-belief.

    If I were to engage in a theistic nail-cutting however. I could be a ritualized form of nail cutting that I believe feeds and enriches the god of fingernails that I worship.

    As another example, some people shave their hair or leave their hair long for theistic reasons (Monks, Sikhs), while some people shave their hair or leave their hair long for non-theistic reasons (Steven Segal thinking that sporting a pony tail is a cool thing to do). 
  • Are @AutumnWillow and @Dygz done already? 

    I would really like to have a belief system in the character sheet, with wide choices of gods, trees, @nagash, money, self, etc. Each giving a small bonus and possibly expanding options for titles. 

    Then, I would like to see the Intrepid staff championing their favorite beliefs in-game. Giving little freebies from lucky draws among the followers, trash-talking each other on the basis of this REALLY FICTIONAL AND NOT AT ALL REAL belief system on the live-streams and blog articles. 
  • @Cyreph
    Thanks! Yep. I'm done.
    AutumnWillow can win. She is 100% correct. 
    We can get back to the topic.
  • Cyreph said:
    Are @AutumnWillow and @Dygz done already? 

    I would really like to have a belief system in the character sheet, with wide choices of gods, trees, @nagash, money, self, etc. Each giving a small bonus and possibly expanding options for titles. 

    Then, I would like to see the Intrepid staff championing their favorite beliefs in-game. Giving little freebies from lucky draws among the followers, trash-talking each other on the basis of this REALLY FICTIONAL AND NOT AT ALL REAL belief system on the live-streams and blog articles. 
    It's nice to make sense of in game stuff. I don't think we were trash talking (definitely far from my intention). I was talking about the possibility of having non-god based religions in the game so we could have more choice that's all :D.

    It's as fun as discussing movies or games. I guess... that's what this discussion boards are for right?

    As mentioned earlier, just wanted explain my position and get @Dygz to understand my position (not convince him to change his mind) . I can understand what @Dygz 's point of view was. Not trying to win anything. 
  • Now that I think of it...

    They are allowing metropolis leaders/politicians to be elected by the members of that metropolis. So why not do something similar for the religions?

    On each server, one person could be the incarnate for each religion - kinda like the pope for that religion. Perhaps they could be chosen based on participation in events/activities for that religious order, and act as a champion for that order.
  • Ghyx said:
    Now that I think of it...

    They are allowing metropolis leaders/politicians to be elected by the members of that metropolis. So why not do something similar for the religions?

    On each server, one person could be the incarnate for each religion - kinda like the pope for that religion. Perhaps they could be chosen based on participation in events/activities for that religious order, and act as a champion for that order.
    This would be awesome. Haha, but probably out of the scope of the game. So far we only have social organizations that might offer that kind of option.  Perhaps one or a few of the social progression paths could be Religion based. 
  • Religion in Ashes is like a social organization with a pantheon of 10 gods and there is horizontal progression in each.  When a Divine node is being developed, the god of the participating people will determine to which god the temple will be dedicated.  
  • You see my legend is already spreading 
  • T-Elf said:
    Religion in Ashes is like a social organization with a pantheon of 10 gods and there is horizontal progression in each.  When a Divine node is being developed, the god of the participating people will determine to which god the temple will be dedicated.  

    Do you think the number of social organizations a player can participate in will be limited? That is will they need to make a choice? Having a religion is more interesting if choices need to be made, not between which gods, but whether to serve a god or not and become a part of that social organization. I like the idea that players would have to make choices among options.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
     Non-god based religion is different from non-theistic religion.
    We actually agree there can be non-god based religions... (even though those would be unofficial cults) so... semantics.
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