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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
Theism - belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
I disagree with you that a religion can be non-theistic in a world where the gods play an active role in the world.
Shamanism can also exist in the world and people can follow shamanism.
And, again, technically a person could refuse to believe in the gods, but that would be like not believing in trees.
Shamanism would be an additional religion, but it's not non-theistic. All shamans who believe in the existence of gods are theists. By definition.
Even if they only worship nature, rather than worshiping gods.
Belief and worship are not the same thing.
Obviously, you cannot have faith in something you don't believe in.
What you mean is that it's possible to believe in a deity and not have faith in them. You don't trust that they will do the things they say they will do for you.
Especially true of a trickster god. Possibly true of a heathen god.
But, the gods in Ashes actually demonstrate that they will provide blessings. When tested, there is really undeniable proof that they provide the blessings they claim to provide. People worship a specific god because they wish to receive the blessings of that specific god. And still can have faith in the other gods without worshiping them.
You can believe in a god and have faith in a god and still not worship the god.
In Ashes, the devout following the Religion progression path are worshiping a specific god. I think I acknowledged that it's possible to to have evidence and interaction with with divine agents and not believe in them. But, that is still like interacting with trees and not believing in them.
People in Ashes can worship Spider Demons and believe that they bring villages milk and honey.
The Religion progression path does provide advantages. Probably some disadvantages, too...certainly some conflict with rival religions.
People, in Ashes, could say that they're non-religious - meaning they haven't chosen to follow a Religion progression path - that they have chosen not to worship a deity. That is reasonable.
But not following a Religion progression path and not worshiping a deity is significantly different from not having faith in any deity and also significantly different from not believing in a deity.
In Ashes, not believing in deities is basically just whacky conspiracy theories.
Which is fine - that makes for great roleplaying!
Belief is not synonymous with faith. There are significant distinctions.
Obviously, you cannot have faith in something you don't believe in.
What you mean is that it's possible to believe in a deity and not have faith in them. You don't trust that they will do the things they say they will do for you.
Especially true of a trickster god. Possibly true of a heathen god.
But, the gods in Ashes actually demonstrate that they will provide blessings. When tested, there is really undeniable proof that they provide the blessings they claim to provide. People worship a specific god because they wish to receive the blessings of that specific god. And still can have faith in the other gods without worshiping them.
You can believe in a god and have faith in a god and still not worship the god.
In Ashes, the devout following the Religion progression path are worshiping a specific god. I think I acknowledged that it's possible to to have evidence and interaction with with divine agents and not believe in them. But, that is still like interacting with trees and not believing in them.
People in Ashes can worship Spider Demons and believe that they bring villages milk and honey. they can believe and have faith that the Spider Demons won't attack anyone.
The Religion progression path does provide advantages. Probably some disadvantages, too...certainly some conflict with rival religions.
People, in Ashes, could say that they're non-religious - meaning they haven't chosen to follow a Religion progression path - that they have chosen not to worship a deity. That is reasonable.
But not following a Religion progression path and not worshiping a deity is significantly different from not having faith in any deity and also significantly different from not believing in a deity.
In Ashes, not believing in deities is basically just whacky conspiracy theories.
Which is fine - that makes for great roleplaying!
So, Im okay with somewhat obligatory god choice for more abilites.
Even in real world, before sientific revolution and progression of societies, most people more or less feared god/gods/spitrits of nature and so on. Some people go absolutly crazy to win their favor (like killing/maiming themselfs/other sick stuff). Whithout any real proof at all. I know its a bit controverial to say this, but just in sake of the point.
A superhuman controlling power doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of a God, or a "being". As I mentioned, it could be a power (i.e. magic) or just simply nature like in my Shaman example.
Theism - belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
The definition of "Theism" you provided doesn't really fit the context of Ashes since like others have mentioned, gods are probably actual beings the world. So the belief of existence isn't really the question, it's more the belief that the particular religion shares the same values as you do.
In AoC, I'm assuming that just because you're a follower of one religion doesn't necessarily make you deny the existence of other gods. It might put your beliefs in the rights of your practices at odd with another religion but that's about all.
I think you're seeing both terms are separate. A Non-Theistic Religion is just simply a religion that doesn't have a supernatural god as the main basis of worship. Magic gives you benefit in this world, so one could easily look towards worshipping magic and spending more time into studying it to gain it's benefits or "blessings".
If you don't believe in the gods, you are delusional.
It's possible to not worship the gods and be sane. It's possible to not have faith in the gods and be sane. It's possible to also believe in a rival religion that does not include gods.
But if you don't believe in the gods, you are delusional. Because they are demonstrably real.
Sharing the values of the gods is not part of the definition of theism nor of religion.
The gods of Ashes are all part of the same religion. It's one pantheon.
We can only mechanically worship one god at a time. Even though we believe in all of them.
We believe in all of them. We don't necessarily have faith in all of them.
Unless the character is delusional.
"Nontheistic religions are traditions of thought within religions—some otherwise aligned with theism, others not—in which non-theism informs religious beliefs or practices."
Your character could state that they practice a Shaman religion - that their power comes from Nature and spirits rather than gods. But, that would not be a non-theistic religion because they would still believe in the gods. They simply don't worship the gods.
You seem unable to grasp that believing in gods is not the same thing as worshiping those gods. or even having faith in those gods.
Your character could espouse worshiping magic instead of the gods as an alternative religion, but if the religion includes belief in the existence of gods, it's a theistic religion.
In Ashes, not believing in the gods is delusional. Any way you slice it.
A person practising a religion based on the god of life doesn't necessarily have to deny the existence of the god of death (@Nagash :P)
A person practising a non-theistic religion doesn't necessarily have to deny the existence of the other gods.
We are discussing hypotheticals and fantasy here but I'm not sure why you find it so hard to see why a non-theistic religion can't exist in the world of Ashes of Creation.
Non-theistic religion doesn't mean a religion of atheist. Don't conflate the 2.
taken from wikipedia:
Nontheism or non-theism is a range of both religious[1] and nonreligious[2]attitudes characterized by the absence of espoused belief in a God or gods. Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism. Nontheism does not necessarily describe atheism or disbelief in God
From wikipedia:
Nontheism or non-theism is a range of both religious[1] and nonreligious[2]attitudes characterized by the absence of espoused belief in a God or gods. Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism. Nontheism does not necessarily describe atheism or disbelief in God
There's nothing saying that a non-theistic religion bases its practices on the denial of the existence of other gods.
Just like saying that a religion based on the god of life doesn't base its practices on the denial the existence of the god of death.
Let me be clear, a non-theistic religion isn't a religion espousing atheism.
Why would it be more delusional than any other religion in a hypothetical fantasy setting?
In that case I want to join a group that opposes the gods and does what they want.
On the world of Ashes rational people must be theists. Because the gods actually exist and impact the world.
Rational people have to espouse a belief in gods. They don't have to worship those gods.
I am focusing on the positive claim, not on the negative claim.
People on Ashes can't really be silent or apathetic towards the subject of belief in gods and be rational. Just as they can't be apathetic or silent towards the subject of belief in snow if they live in the tundra.
It would be possible to be a non-theistic shaman in a culture that has no concept of gods and where gods don't exist and don't impact the world.
But, on the world of Ashes, rational shamans would have to be theistic shamans who worship Life or Magic or Nature instead of the gods, but whom believe in the existence of the gods and the impact the gods have on the world.
Non-religious might be a valid term in the context of not participating in the Religion progression path.
Just not a worshiper of that religion.
Sigh, there isn't a negative claim in a non-theistic religion. It's just a descriptor/modifier to the religion word describing religion that there is something else rather than a god or gods that's central to the practices.
Just because spoons exists doesn't mean that spoon must be the core of all religions. Your religion doesn't talk about spoons so it's delusional for example.
Just because gods exists doesn't mean that gods must be the core of all religions.
A non-theistic religion is a religion where something else rather the gods isn't the focus of the religion. A religion focusing on the freeing the inhabitants from the clutches of the gods can easily be a non-theistic religion that doesn't deny the existence of the gods.
Once again... non-theism isn't atheism.
This is a fantasy world where gods are real. And while they are powerful, I would assume have flaws and weaknesses and could possibly one day be defeated (in a future raid perhaps
Non-theism can only be a thing in a culture that has no interaction with gods and no concept of gods, especially where gods don't truly exist and gods do not impact daily life.
If you live in a desert and have never experienced snow, you can be silent and apathetic about the subject of belief in snow. In a desert you can have non-belief in snow. If you live in a tundra, you cannot be silent and apathetic about the subject of belief in snow.. In the tundra, you must believe in snow.
You can also believe in fire and rain and magic and life. But you are delusional if you have non-belief in snow or even if you are silent and apathetic about belief in snow.
That non-theism is not atheism is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that on the world of Ashes, rational people must be theists.
You don't have to worship the gods, but you are delusional if you don't believe in the gods and their impact on the world.
@Dygz can you believe in the existence of something but not dedicate your life to it? If you can, then you can understand the concept of non-theism.
A theist can easily be in a non-theistic religion. I.e. a person who hates the war caused by the gods, finds a religion preaching peace without any dedication to a god or gods. Why would that be delusional?
The belief of the existence of god or gods is irrelevant to a non-theistic religion because non-theist doesn't mean lack of belief or disbelief in a god or gods.
non-theism not being atheism is extremely relevant to our discussion. Because as I mentioned, I agree with your claim that gods exists in the world of Ashes of Creation and have shown a number of examples of fantasy non-theistic religions that do not deny the gods.
However, you keep showing examples of why characters in ashes of creation should believe in god when really there isn't a need to show the existence of god in AoC. Your arguments would make sense if we're disagreeing on the existence of a god or gods.
Non-theism doesn't mean Atheism
Apathy towards the gods doesn't mean denial of the gods' existence
I'm silent and apathetic towards snow but I don't deny it's existence
If you read the wiki description again,
"Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism."
You've changed it to "apathy or silence towards the subject of belief. " and later on even " silent and apathetic about belief in snow" in your arguments. That's why we're having prolonged and odd (though mildly entertaining
Theism is the belief in a god or gods, so if you believe in a god you are a theist.
Just because you are a theist does not mean you have to dedicate your life to the god(s) you believe in.
You cannot believe in a god and be a non-theist.
Non-theism is non-belief in a god. Atheist is disblief in a god.
Theism is the belief in a god or gods
Atheism is the lack of belief in the god or gods
Non-Theism is something that is apathetic (don't care about) towards god or gods
So you can very easily believe in gods and be a non-theist.
Just as people living in the tundra cannot be apathetic about belief in snow, people living on the world of Ashes cannot be apathetic about belief in the gods.
https://www.thoughtco.com/whats-the-difference-between-nontheism-and-atheism-247996
There is an interesting distinction that might be made without being pedantic between “atheist” and “non-theist.” The latter is not (necessarily) one who explicitly denies the existence of God (or denies theism). A non-theist (like a non-Hegelian) may simply have never contemplated theism (or Hegel). “Atheist” suggests a person has at least given theism some thought and rejected it – or not accepted it as true or probably true. Although the difference may not be obvious, there is a difference between not believing x (i.e. not believing there is a God) and believing not-x (i.e. believing there is not a God).
wiki definition:
"Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism."
Apathetic towards the subject of God: Don't care about the subject of God.
Apathetic towards the belief of God: Don't care about the belief in God.
You do understand that those 2 things are quite different right?
I don't care about the subject of cotton vs. I don't care about the belief in the existence of cotton are very very different things.