Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
In ascribing "end game" to a game at all, in my opinion, is to announce to your playerbase that they have "completed" the game at a certain point and that they may now wander off and play something else, safe in the knowledge that they have done all that is worthwhile to do in your game.
It more or less for the PVE community, ends up being rinse and repeat 3hr a week content
Or for the PvP community winning a set amount of matches per week.
or for the faction/faction WvW zergball trains flipping worthless assets for gain tokens.
It hardly warrants a persistent world environment does it...
2 weeks till max level...whats the point?
Endgame does mean the end of the game...Whether by design or by the player losing interest. It is the cupcake on the top shelf and if you ever reach it then whats the point afterwards. especially without risk of loss. Or worse the knowledge it will be all made irrelevant in future by expansion.
I have made a topic regarding gear treadmills and power creep and how I feel about them, so I'll leave it at that.
Ideally It's should all be considered content without end and should all be impactful in some intrinsic organic way.
and time spent should be motivated by interactive enjoyment and not individual obligation.
I agree that there should be more to do than just raiding after your character has hit the cap. A game that has only that would not appeal to me.
The term "end game" is just at most, an inaccurate term if taken and looked at literally word for word. But the context of end game in mmorpgs usually means (for me and most of my gaming friends) endgame content = things to do after you've level cap. Just like how the term "virtual reality" doesn't make sense if you pick both words apart and argue them separately.
Trying to force people to change the words they use will be difficult and in my opinion, quite pointless.
My ideal "endgame" content: Social progression, character progression via loot or alternative advancements. Housing, crafting, community building. For others, pvp would fall under this as well (kind of how single player fps provides gaming value for players who have completed the campaign by providing multiplayer options.)
free interpretation for the relevance of terminology is fine, I am not questioning or debating the fact intentionally.
At least generating awareness.
I guess my fear is that Ashes will deliver Playtime* at all levels, but could be persuaded by a typically vocal minority demanding more "endgame' because that is what they have been subjected and conditioned to expect from the genre.
Using favorable terminology that is not associated with theme park heavy MMOs will contribute to a better genuine community understanding of what Ashes of Creation hopes to deliver. IMO
Max level is not the end, its only the beginning.
It's is the stereotypical mentality behind the terminology that has had a long term negative effect on the genre.
you can <insert terminology> regarding the expectation of MMO players who expect the same selfish linear progression systems that have become industry standard practice.
Just give me " massive multiplayer online game content" then.
The problem may have more to do with "leveling" than anything else. Players (with the help of designers) have come to view it as something "in their way" and to be overcome on the way to their ultimate goals.
I think levels should be thrown away as a mark of player power. Instead, make them only a mark of player progression, each level determined by a hidden algorithm that considers a mix of various types of game experience and player behavior.
And there should be no cap.
This way, if you see a level 67 mage or whatever, you *know* they've been around and seen things! But his actual experience, not his player level, makes him better than you at the game.
I think end game takes care of itself and withers away if this idea drives everything else
I hope that pushing the idea of taking time and enjoying the game as a better long term strategy, which will (most likely) result in better personal character development stats wise.
If it is possible for any mmo to achieve an influence on 'end-game' thinking, I feel it may be ashes.
And yeah, calling it the max level game is probably better to help folks recognise a different perspective is possible
i was contemplating a system where exp/levels are used as expendable currency or are also effected by deterioration.
I recall Steven mentioning exp debt penalties as a game mechanic.
Just some open minded ideas..
aoc seems to take a new approach in which players create the conflict and stories, It is a delicate balance, and one players will have to invest in, to see real change happen in their world.
Endgame content is the content available once a character has completed all the new quests and/or killed all the mobs and bosses: repeatable dungeons, raids and dailies. Character progression and story progression are at an end until the next expansion.
Typically, endgame content becomes all that is available several hours after hitting max level, so lots of people consider those two terms to be interchangeable even though they actually aren't.
Ashes has several progression paths besides the Adventurer role - most important is leveling the nodes.
Even if we reach max level in the Adventurer role, we'll still need to level nodes to max level in order to gain access to BiS gear and ultimate perks. And it takes months to bring a node to max level.
In addition, there is max level for Religion progression, Guild progression and Social progression. Even assuming you won't be interested at all in Artisan or Naval progression.
Also, there is politics to become involved in if you want to make sure the building that give you the perks you want get built.
If they don't get built, you may very well want to become a citizen of a node that does provide the perks you want and/or strive to ensure that a node that has the perks you want reaches the required level for those perks to come active.
Ashes isn't focused on BiS gear, but obtaining BiS gear -if that's what you want to do, isn't as simple as repeating raids.
Max level also isn't as simple as reaching max level in your Adventurer role.
I guess "max level" and BiS gear are all that matters in a static world where you can stop playing for a couple months and be sure that your personal housing and guild housing and city will still exist when you log back in.
Ashes ain't like that, though.
Typically, I refer to home computers as PCs - unless it becomes important to distinguish between a Windows PC and a Mac.
There are places where the term for a soda is coke. Which can be fine until you run into someone who only drinks Pepsi; not any brand of cola.
Most of my friends have an iPhone - and we typically FaceTime. But, you can't FaceTime on an Android.
Endgame refers to the content available once all the new content has been completed by one character and all that's left is repeatable content: dungeons, raids, dailies. You've reached the end of the dev content for that character.
In Ashes, you won't even be close to reaching the end of dev content just because the character hit max level in the Adventurer role. Cinder is a dynamic world. We can't force people to change terms.
But, it is important to push people to understand that the concepts of this gamed design are revolutionarily different than previous MMORPGs: You reach max level in the Adventurer role and character progression and story progression continue to evolve. Character progression and story/world progression don't end when a character reaches max level like they do in previous MMORPGs.
That's the concept that we need to get across. And it's easiest to do that by making the distinction between max level content and endgame content - especially since endgame content doesn't really exist in a dynamic world like Ashes, while there is plenty of new content for your character to experience after hitting max level.
There's not going to be a dramatic shift to "PvP" at max level.
Because in Ashes, PvP conflict is ubiquitous and unavoidable.
Reaching max level in the Adventurer role is not going to change a player's focus on PvP combat.
So, sure, we could call a Mac a PC. But, I stress different terms if I need to get across differences like video games aren't as readily available for Mac as on a Windows PC. I often FaceTime people - comes in handy especially at work (I work in IT)- but "I'll FaceTime you" is not going to work with people who have an Android.
Sometimes the distinctions are important.
I won't play an MMORPG that has an endgame.
I will play MMORPGs with max level content if they don't have an endgame.
That distinction is important to me. So, I stress the distinction.
Mileage may vary for other folk.
The goal of most MMORPGs has now been shaped so that we race blindly to level cap, there to begin the "end game" offerings. It's no longer about the journey, it's the race to the destination, and the mindset that nothing else exists in a game except that "end game" offering.
And this is exactly what we saw ANet do with GW2. Started out with the expectation that "The game is all end game," then when people didn't feel there was enough content (i.e., raid-type content for gear progression), ANet began making changes to the basic, underlying structure of the game. That created a chain of events that ended up with GW2 being "just another" MMORPG.
So very perfectly stated. Thank you.
Absolutely, @Megs. But I really think when those people rush to level cap and then look around and say "Wait, now what?" they'll likely disappear; assuming we don't have a repeat of ANet with GW2. However, and I should have stated this above, Steven has said he firmly holds the reins, he's not driven by a board, so I feel that they'll not cave and cower to "Mo' money!" the way most game devs have to. That's my hope, anyway!
*applauds* Amen, @Dygz!
Leveling is the mechanic by which we experience the Hero's Journey.
The Hero's Journey is key for most good storytelling, but is especially crucial for High Fantasy settings.
In the Hero's Journey, the protagonist moves from average joe to powerful hero.
Along the lines of Harry Potter.
Can't have an RPG without levels. If there are no levels, it's some other genre.
Also levels are about the characters; not the players.
RPGs are about the experiences and knowledge of each character; not the experience and knowledge of the player.
Sure, gamers like to focus on the game rather than the roleplaying, but RPGs are really more about the roleplaying/story than the game - with the mechanics just facilitating the resolutions of the challenges the heroes experience.
Endgame withers away if there is an ever quest.
Endgame withers away if there is a dynamic world that constantly provides new experiences instead of re-playing the same experiences in a static world.
But, new experiences don't have to all be gated by level - especially not max level.
In tabletop RPGs, we often also had to wait years for content which increased levels. We didn't have to wait years for new adventures or new creatures or new powers and abilities. That BiS gear and abilities for adventuring in the Arctic might not work so well when adventuring in the Desert.
Gaining different abilities for different experiences and encounters can be just as important as gaining more powerful abilities.
Horizontal progression v vertical progression.
Batman acquiring the appropriate costume and gadgets to fit the situation/adventure v Superman gaining ever-increasing super-powers.
Ashes has plenty of horizontal progression; in addition to vertical progression.
But, in Ashes, what really puts and end to endgame is having content tied inextricably to building and destroying nodes (as well as to the specific types of buildings we build within each village, town, city and metropolis throughout the entire server).
The world of ashes can be dangerous and there are real reasons for conflict to occur (opposing nodes). This hurry to prepare yourself... could be seen in a role playing context of urgency to prepare because war is coming. Would you find that very practical reason for rushing more... acceptable?
This is from my view point as a high exploration, low killer motivation type player. Perhaps I'm just paranoid. Heh heh.
That player who rushes can still taking the time to enjoy the rest of the game via an alt or choose to revisit areas if they choose to.
I get what you guys mean by the journey being important and all, I play a wide variety of RPGs, from table top to well... Action Rpgs and while they all share the RPG moniker, the purpose and objective of the games are very very different.
We will always have those who rush and try to max everything out in order to feel superior to others. That doesn't mean that they are.
It's still going to take time to build those nodes and craft what is needed. While those "Alpha" types may be rushing ahead, I think the majority will be making stronger characters and nodes because they are more apt to work along side each other and perfect their crafts and skills as well as learn and explore more in depth.
They are more willing to share their knowledge with each other and work for the common cause. Also lower level and solo people and their contributions will be more appreciated by the "more common" folk.
The "Alpha" end gammers are more interested in themselves, not contributing to the whole.
In the end it's not how fast or how much you know, but how you obtain and use that knowledge.
For me, it's just play the way you feel like as long as it doesn't directly impact the fun of others (using exploits, griefing etc.)
Some people might feel differently towards this and that's totally fine as well. There really isn't a need to label them as alpha, or non-roleplayers etc.
There could be a million reasons why one rushes, perhaps it's vacation time and they know they'll not have time later, they could rush to path find the best way forward so they can head back to help others in the guild level up, or like in @CylverRayne 's example, one could rush because they want to feel superior to others and/or want a leg up in competition.