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"End Game" mentality has to die and resurrect "Play Time" from the Ashes.

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    Exactly! The posts aren't new. They're the ones that gotten eaten by the forums. :p
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    I don't see why character lvl has to be connected with game content, I've place a game where you could have a character lvled in a day but never tuched much content if any, but lvling up that fast did not reduce playability of the game, in fact that's really where the game began. I played that game for years only got burnt-out on it after getting into some toxic politics and some guild issues, as guild leader.

    It is my hope that your character lvl has little to no impact on the content you can enjoy and when you reach 'max lvl' just means you've developed your characters skills to what is expected to fully enjoy the game.

    'Ashes of creation, we are the new story build on the old'  the lore is in what was, and what is in the world, the story is in what/how we interact with/in it

    The deva part in the story of the then the lore is in how the world interacts with us but even that they are giving us a hand in by use of monster coins
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    But thats the irony,
    'you leveled a character in less than a day and never touched content'

    'and at max level is where the game began'

    These are symptoms of end game but not actually endgame as such, merely a slapdash vertical character progression, poorly designed in a way that is next to irrelevant for a game that has principally max level content.

    A paced leveling up system can greatly emphasize lore and world development and justify the player characters place in it.
    It can aid exploration and promote early game player community interactions.
    Obliviously helps the player familiarize the player with skills and mechanics to be prepared for max level*
    Quests/rewards when paced correctly have impact.
    leveling up when paced correctly feels like an achievement.

    I understand that in a social game you want to be at the same level with your friends.
    But perhaps you missed an opportunity to make new friends along the way.

    But if I ask myself "would I play an RPG without a leveling system?" I think my answer would be no.

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    My point was that character lvl had nothing to do with what game content you could enjoy, and that content and lvl do not have to be correlated, or paralleled. That they can be totally separate
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    The real game began at the 'endgame'/max level - but playing the content had nothing to do with levels.
    I can't grok that.

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    Dygz said:
    The real game began at the 'endgame'/max level - but playing the content had nothing to do with levels.
    I can't grok that.

    I know it's kinda hard to wrap your mind around it. (I had a bit of trouble at first with that) but once you get into it makes a bit more sense. I guess I don't really know how to explain it that well :/
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    I acknowledge that.

    But why implement systems in a game genre that do not benefit each other exponentially.

    and how do you make meaningful progression without boundaries and a sense of growth/development leading to investment worth.

    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.

    If Intrepid  decided to abolish levels and go more sandbox without power creep that would be fine too, they would still have to do it right however.

    The reason why I mention level progression in typical linear Endgame MMOs is that  Endgame has made leveling up an irrelevent burden typically bypassed with real world cash money. And all the focus is on max level Endgame usually instanced content.





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    Whocando said:
    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.
    Ashes will also have deleveling too. While this is still a linear concept (just in reverse), it does tie in with the "consequences" pillar.

    The confluence of baseline stats from player level and other stats (such as node buffs) will make for some interesting nonlinear gameplay. But the math behind this will need to be rock solid because this is way more complex than other MMOs even without taking class stats and augments into account. :confused:
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    Whocando said:
    I acknowledge that.

    But why implement systems in a game genre that do not benefit each other exponentially.

    and how do you make meaningful progression without boundaries and a sense of growth/development leading to investment worth.

    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.

    If Intrepid  decided to abolish levels and go more sandbox without power creep that would be fine too, they would still have to do it right however.

    The reason why I mention level progression in typical linear Endgame MMOs is that  Endgame has made leveling up an irrelevent burden typically bypassed with real world cash money. And all the focus is on max level Endgame usually instanced content.





    1st one I don't have an answer to atmosphere

    2nd one, your impact on the world around you

    3rd and 4th ones I agree

    5th I understand that but was looking at it from a different angle. I am looking at the fact of content being connected to your lvl causing content to become less meaningful once you lvl passed it

    I not really trying to argue against you in that just trying to bring up another point that is related


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    You can only make impact with feedback.
    If you are given impact at the beginning and have the same impact at the end, where is the feeling progression?

    in a linear system out leveling content due to power creep  has already been mentioned and discussed.

    But it is possible to either scale the environment to the player accordingly, allow the environment to react to the player population, or not allow power creep to trivialize previous content.

    You are basically describing the current nuance of max level content disguised as endgame by design justifying my OP
     
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    Whocando said:
    You can only make impact with feedback.
    If you are given impact at the beginning and have the same impact at the end, where is the feeling progression?

    in a linear system out leveling content due to power creep  has already been mentioned and discussed.

    But it is possible to either scale the environment to the player accordingly, allow the environment to react to the player population, or not allow power creep to trivialize previous content.

    You are basically describing the current nuance of max level content disguised as endgame by design justifying my OP
     

    I am not sure what you mean by only being able to make an impact with feedback, but in an ever changing world where your actions have an impact that because commutative over time that is where you can find the feeling of progress, where you can say 'I helped build that' or 'my actions lead to the opening of that dungeon' etc

    I view the 'end game' content as a symptom of the problem, where the problem is that content is locked/links inherently to the level of the character.
    If the quest/content was less about leveling your character through a story, and more about impacting the world while telling the story of that world, and where the quests change over time because your actions and the actions of others have impacted the world. You wouldn't be looking at content thinking is this endgame? Or is this low lvl? You'd be looking at it in the sense of what kind of impact is this going to have.

    More quest vs lvl of impact
    Less quest vs lvl of character
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    lexmax said:
    I agree that the "End Game" terminology is somewhat misplaced in a game like AoC. 
    • If there is no fixed level cap, then there is no "end" so to speak.

    • Advancement of nodes, professions and religions might contribute significantly to player "power", not just level and gear. These things might be gained (or lost) over time, so the experience of growth is likely more nonlinear than other games, making the concept of "End" fairly arbitrary.

    So yea, you might be able to have the max power (if there is a cap), making it more like an "end-game" power, but to keep that max power you need to constantly fight for it.
    And this is why this game is unique imo, because even if you have "end-game" power, you need to constantly defend/maintain it (if there are some divinity buffs that need you to pray regularly to keep/maintain them).
    Not to mention nodes building or destruction, making the gameplay unique in it's own way, very hard to reach "end-game" power, and can change alot over the course of time, with node destruction/deleveling.
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    Whocando said:

    But it is possible to either scale the environment to the player accordingly, allow the environment to react to the player population, or not allow power creep to trivialize previous content.
     
    This also has to be carefully balanced.  Guild Wars 2 scales characters to the zone with the intent of keeping the entire game relevant.  But it's still not quite right.  If you take a max level character, with all their traits & talents and gear, into a lower zone it's still a faceroll, even though you're scaled down to the zone level.  You're still too OP.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Right. One of the reasons of having shallow vertical progression is to make it so that max level doesn't mean you're the equivalent of a god to low level characters and mobs - such that it's basically impossible for low levels to harm merely due to stats even if you were defenseless otherwise.

    That shallow vertical progression would be offset by wide horizontal progression.
    Which we have in Ashes via Religion, Social, Naval, etc.

    In Ashes, outleveling mobs has interesting consequences.
    Seems likely we will be constantly on the move to level mobs as we discover and level new nodes. Leveling and destroying nodes provides a flux in the variety of stories and events and mobs and dungeons for us to encounter.

    Regardless of whether we're max level, we still have to gather the resources and complete the quests necessary to level a node. It's not all about gaining personal xp.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    lexmax said:
    Whocando said:
    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.
    Ashes will also have deleveling too. While this is still a linear concept (just in reverse), it does tie in with the "consequences" pillar.


    The current info is that You gain negative xp not lose xp. So there shouldn't be deleveling. 

    There is also an adventuring level cap (currently). @lexmax


    Whocando said:

    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.

    .....

    The reason why I mention level progression in typical linear Endgame MMOs is that  Endgame has made leveling up an irrelevent burden typically bypassed with real world cash money. And all the focus is on max level Endgame usually instanced content.
    Examples of meaningful leveling? Leveling through a quest that teaches you about the lore of the world? The quests you do contributes to the growth of a node as well, meaning that your actions (while leveling) affects the game world. Albeit in a relatively fixed kinda manner quests leading towards progression of the node vs single player games where your 1 choice might have dire consequences in the game world. Though one could argue that if you want to cripple node A through leveling, all you need to do is to go to the nearby node B and start leveling there to push it's progression up.

    From what the developers have shared, I feel the levels are just there for progression and also there as a cap on player power through level gains. As has been mentioned, horizontal progression is what the developers are emphasizing a lot on. They also shared the different progressions and the node system etc. Since nodes rise and fall, the area you fought in when you were in level 1 might not even exist by the time you're at level 50. 

    So are you still concerned about the AoC not having enough content to do at level cap and/or only having instanced content @Whocando

    Or are you looking for something slightly different when you meant meaningful leveling experience?

    *sorry just woke up, haha, first post of the day (long edit :))
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Right. But there is a character deleveling of sorts - not from losing xp, but from losing the perks gained by certain buildings being built, etc.
    I expect we will be losing some augments based on buildings being destroyed and the impact of other players on our regions and nodes.
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    "I helped build this" = Feedback.

    From what has been mentioned by Intrepid, from a nodes epicenter undergoing development the further the reach of that's nodes influence can be felt and beyond that the severity of threat perhaps increases and pushes back.
    Where a players characters physical level will be felt or lack there of beyond the zones of influence.

    Which means that level progression will not be entirely conformed to a linear path of level specific zones in succession.
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    lexmax said:
    Whocando said:
    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.
    Ashes will also have deleveling too. While this is still a linear concept (just in reverse), it does tie in with the "consequences" pillar.


    The current info is that You gain negative xp not lose xp. So there shouldn't be deleveling. 
    Yes. Bad terminology there. Stats decrease due to negative xp which is different to deleveling

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    lexmax said:


    The main difference I see with alpha and beta test servers will be the need for manual or scripted intervention, so that as much the event and narrative content can be tested in a reasonable timeframe.
    I think either transparently or behind the scenes, the game will  need a backdoor for manual or scripted intervention well after the betas have completed. This will be in order to avoid population collapse, mono-cultures and just to mix things up.

    Some of this can be orchestrated by the major boss awakenings, that metropoles may unleash.

    As for the Alpha and Beta stages, I thought I read that they would be reset at intervals as well.

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    @AutumnWillow I don't have any concern with Intrepid handle on their passion project.
    My only concern as mentioned previously is that a very loud vocal minority might try to hijack or defame Ashes due to not conforming or providing stereotypical content (Lack of Endgame*) of the  MMO industry expectations based on bad practices as a result of profit making.

    I explained meaningful leveling already. But the gist is that is enjoyable enough to not need boosting or purcha$ing max to bypass it and make all content associated moot.



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    I just don't want to fell pressured or forced to do recycled content. I just want to have freedom of Choosing whatever i want to do, and still meet other Players along the way
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    Years to come there will be content no one has managed to touch. I'm sure there will always be stories to tell and goals to achieve. 
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    Whocando said:
    My only concern as mentioned previously is that a very loud vocal minority might try to hijack or defame Ashes due to not conforming or providing stereotypical content (Lack of Endgame*) of the  MMO industry expectations based on bad practices as a result of profit making.
    I share this concern, which is one of the reasons I want to remain closely involved with the Ashes community. If there are enough of us who understand and support their vision then I'm hoping the vocal dissenters will feature less prominently in the narrative.
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    lexmax said:
    lexmax said:
    Whocando said:
    Ashes will be implementing levels* so I personally would prefer a meaningful leveling up experience and adventure.
    Ashes will also have deleveling too. While this is still a linear concept (just in reverse), it does tie in with the "consequences" pillar.


    The current info is that You gain negative xp not lose xp. So there shouldn't be deleveling. 
    Yes. Bad terminology there. Stats decrease due to negative xp which is different to deleveling

    You have a dev quote for stat decreasing? There is xp debt which means it takes longer to gain the next level. And durability loss, which I took to mean gear; not stat loss.
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    Dygz said:
    You have a dev quote for stat decreasing? There is xp debt which means it takes longer to gain the next level. And durability loss, which I took to mean gear; not stat loss.
    From the Dungeon Crawler Network Q&A:
    While you cannot delevel from dying, you can accrue negative experience and that debt reflects certain combat effectiveness in both PVP and PVE: lower health and mana, lower stats, less gear proficiency. The more you accrue, the worse your performance. Through death, you recover that negative experience.
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    @lexmax Your just full of references, I'll just have to tag you every time i can't remember something :wink:
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    At the end of the day, we will just have to play - it will either be fun or it won't be fun. EQNext supposedly got canceled because the devs determined it wasn't as fun to play as they ad originally expected.

    If it's fun, people will try it and decide for themselves. 
    Show; not tell.
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    We all know EQNext got canceled because of all the cutbacks after the company got new owners. 
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    Whocando said:
    @AutumnWillow I don't have any concern with Intrepid handle on their passion project.
    My only concern as mentioned previously is that a very loud vocal minority might try to hijack or defame Ashes due to not conforming or providing stereotypical content (Lack of Endgame*) of the  MMO industry expectations based on bad practices as a result of profit making.

    I explained meaningful leveling already. But the gist is that is enjoyable enough to not need boosting or purcha$ing max to bypass it and make all content associated moot.




    Ah, okay. At least so far, the developers seem to have a very strong idea about what they have planned and doesn't seem very susceptible to player influence. So I'm with you in hoping the game doesn't get hijacked or defamed but so far, it hasn't raise any concerns with me yet personally. 

    Thanks for re-explaining what you meant by meaningful leveling, I read too many threads and sometimes I might miss out certain arguments, haha. I guess it would mean leveling that isn't grindy. The developers have mention their desire to stay away from daily quests and instead have quests that react to events in the world and/or are reliant on the region you're in.

    They also seem to be focusing a lot on non-filler type quests and instead, quests based on narrative node-based objectives. As heard during their interview with the Lazy Peon.

    :)


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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    @Eragale
    I expect some recycled content - especially as we rebuild destroyed nodes and buildings, but...

    Each node is supposed to generate its own stories and the villages and towns will be different based on the race that founds the camp, so...
    Players should have the means to alter the world and narrative in a variety of ways to avoid being stuck inextricably with recycled content.
    If the released game matches the promise of the design.

    Especially if the devs are able to implement DLCs on a monthly an quarterly basis - as planned.
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