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"End Game" mentality has to die and resurrect "Play Time" from the Ashes.

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    I see a lot of semantics being played on this thread. It reminds me of the people on my VR forums that was arguing about calling games AAA titles.
    I understand both sides of the coin here. A shift in terminology can, indeed emphasize and push towards a different aspect of expectations. It's much of how politics is played. Using terms such as "undocumented immigrant", rather than "illegal alien", can start to change and form a different mindset as it negates the legality of the issue. Semantics may not seem that important, and may come off as a trivial point to some, but the fact is-it works. 
    If people started referring to "end-game content" as something else, it could potentially help shape the future endeavors of gaming. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Yeah, I guess what I wanted to say was just that I personally think there isn't really a right or wrong way to play an MMORPG.

    For me, it's just play the way you feel like as long as it doesn't directly impact the fun of others (using exploits, griefing etc.)

    Some people might feel differently towards this and that's totally fine as well. There really isn't a need to label them as alpha, or non-roleplayers etc.

    There could be a million reasons why one rushes, perhaps it's vacation time and they know they'll not have time later, they could rush to path find the best way forward so they can head back to help others in the guild level up, or like in @CylverRayne 's example, one could rush because they want to feel superior to others and/or want a leg up in competition.

    I agree with play the way you like to play.
    It's OK to rush to max level.
    I'm not sure what "alpha" means. Rushing to max might be hardcore.
    No way to tell whether or not such a person is a roleplayer. They might start roleplaying at max level, for all I know.
    It's also possible they're a gamer rather than a roleplayer.

    But, as far as I've seen, the focus of the labeling is on the content.
    Specifically for a game where max level content is distinct from endgame content.
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    I see a lot of semantics being played on this thread. It reminds me of the people on my VR forums that was arguing about calling games AAA titles.
    I understand both sides of the coin here. A shift in terminology can, indeed emphasize and push towards a different aspect of expectations. It's much of how politics is played. Using terms such as "undocumented immigrant", rather than "illegal alien", can start to change and form a different mindset as it negates the legality of the issue. Semantics may not seem that important, and may come off as a trivial point to some, but the fact is-it works. 
    If people started referring to "end-game content" as something else, it could potentially help shape the future endeavors of gaming. 
    Great points.
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    Dygz said:
    Uh. Nooooo.
    Leveling is the mechanic by which we experience the Hero's Journey.
     The Hero's Journey is key for most good storytelling, but is especially crucial for High Fantasy settings.
    In the Hero's Journey, the protagonist moves from average joe to powerful hero.
    Along the lines of Harry Potter.
    You had me until you mentioned Harry Potter... :trollface:
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    I think end game is an important carrot to drive people through content but I also think its a terrible grind that invalidates too much content later.
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    Whocando said:
    the Alpha gamers will not get very far initially due to the progression of the node being dependent on population influence. with any attempts at rushing reigned in by the inputs of those around to even the lowest common denominator. High tier Node maintenance/destruction will be the perpetual engine of meaningful game play.
    The target server population is around 10,000 players. Anything below that will require scaling. This scaling would apply to Ashes servers in general as populations naturally vary with geography.

    The main difference I see with alpha and beta test servers will be the need for manual or scripted intervention, so that as much the event and narrative content can be tested in a reasonable timeframe.
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    Hmmm, with the possibility of cities being sacked and razed. Wouldn't that put a pressure on some players to... quickly get to the Max level content to ensure that their character is at least on par or better than those who might want to do harm their city.

    The world of ashes can be dangerous and there are real reasons for conflict to occur (opposing nodes). This hurry to prepare yourself... could be seen in a role playing context of urgency to prepare because war is coming. Would you find that very practical reason for rushing more... acceptable?

    This is from my view point as a high exploration, low killer motivation type player. Perhaps I'm just paranoid. Heh heh. 

    That player who rushes can still  taking the time to enjoy the rest of the game via an alt or choose to revisit areas if they choose to.
    Rushing to max level on the Adventurer role is fine.
    There will still be plenty of other content to focus on - like constructing the buildings that will provide the desired city perks... and bringing the node to max level...and bringing the ultimate Metropolis perk(s) online.... In addition to defending the city.
    It takes months to level a node to max. There is no way to rush that.
    Even without other people laying siege to your node.

    Prepping for war really has nothing to do with max level, though. We will likely be prepping for sieges well before we reach max level in the Adventurer role and well before a node reaches max level.
    Sieges become possible at Stage 3. Nodes max at Stage 6.

    It's common for gamers to blame other playstyles for the perceived ruination of their fun, even though often it's primarily the limitations of the tech and the game design.

    Not only will we have alt characters to keep us busy - for those of us who love to explore classes and races and genders in addition to geography- we will also have alternate servers to explore.
    Because even though a node in the same geographic location on a different server will be the same node type, that node might never be developed on different servers - and even when they are, they could be developed by a different race - and even when it's the same type in the same location developed by the same race, the citizens may have chosen to construct different buildings - for certain the freeholds will all be different.

     So, sure, people can "rush" to max their Adventurer level if they want to. But, it really doesn't have much meaning - that's just a fairly tiny portion of the overall gameplay in Ashes.
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    I am anti-end game. Anti-levels. I think if people have done everything, seen everything and killed everything and can improve no more then the devs stopped developing. The game is at fault. I think there should always be the possibility of turning a corner to see the thing, the portal, the cave, the npc and the god you never saw before. 

    That is expensive though in terms of production. 
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    To understand End Game we need to understand what motivates the game. If the motivation in the game is getting better loot then there will always be an end game. AoC has made it interesting with the nodes but it is still possible that the primary hook to play is to get better gear. I hated WoW expansions, hated seeing my awesome loot that took so long to get being eclipsed by weapons and armor dropped from trash mobs. It ruined my motivation. Hard earned gear needs to stay relevant, some games have weapons and armor that level and get better as you do, but that kills the motivation to get new stuff also. If AoC does it right we will see our motivation revolve around making the node stronger and our gear second to that. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Endgame is the end of dev content.
    "What motivates the game" is irrelevant.

    Ashes isn't simply about making the node stronger - rather it's about developing the nodes in a manner that it provides the perks and story content we want.
    That includes both strengthening and weakening nodes. Attacking and defending nodes.
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    Just had to bring some fun back here 

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    nagash said:
    Just had to bring some fun back here 
    In other words, "I'm compelled to make another appearance here."
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    Dygz said:
    nagash said:
    Just had to bring some fun back here 
    In other words, "I'm compelled to make another appearance here."
    Oh you know me so well 

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    I think everyone misses the point of the dynamic node based world.

    Typically people want to create a guild with the mindset of dominating the server and any opposing guilds / factions. I have done this and literally killed a server including pvping the GM's who came into the pvp area with no rules set wo there were fair game. After getting thumped they made me stop but the point is eventually we ran everyone off the server and that was the end. Pretty Dismal and the game itself deserved to be ended.

     That aside The NODE system should provide us with continuous events that change the world even to the point where there is a catastrophic event(s) that destroy a major city (node) by either pvp or the will of the gods as the earth swallows half the city and turns it into an underground labyrinth that must be rediscovered and developed. I can think of endless permutations that would challenge players, who would then have to progress back through a different method ( questing, Archeology, religion, discovery etc..)  than just the brute force supplied by their epic/legendary end game items. As an example i remember in Asherons Call when the dev's had a world event that destroyed Arwic which was a major hub in the game. The destruction was devastating and New Arwic took a long time to rise back up.  Don't limit the dev's or your selves by settling for the typical "end game" garbage. Immersive play that involves only 10 to 20% of the best players groups  (typically the absolute end games is only accomplished by that number in MMORPG's) won't keep your game alive in this generation.  A changing world that needs everyone will keep it alive and flourishing
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    nagash said:
    Just had to bring some fun back here 

    Funny, but even funnier if it was the middle finger :lol:
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    I'm in full agreement with this. There is no such thing as end game. you just chill in your node with buds and toughen yourself up and enjoy life.
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    lexmax said:
    nagash said:
    Just had to bring some fun back here 

    Funny, but even funnier if it was the middle finger :lol:
    I have that as well  but I don't want to get banned ^^
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Even in Themepark MMOs, before the dumbed down over casualised convenience creep evolved to what is now common practice.

    The endgame* objective by design then was only ever achieved by 0.1% of the population until its design duration expires.

    Now it just feels forced like a carrot dispenser after they chucked out the 10ft pole and string.

    all summed up by the "you think you do, but you don't." development cycle.



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    Carrot dispenser... I like that a lot :)
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    lexmax said:
    Carrot dispenser... I like that a lot :)
    I hate carrots. Almost all veggies, actually. Carnivores for the win.  :p
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    Uzial said:
    I think everyone misses the point of the dynamic node based world.

    Typically people want to create a guild with the mindset of dominating the server and any opposing guilds / factions. I have done this and literally killed a server including pvping the GM's who came into the pvp area with no rules set wo there were fair game. After getting thumped they made me stop but the point is eventually we ran everyone off the server and that was the end. Pretty Dismal and the game itself deserved to be ended.

     That aside The NODE system should provide us with continuous events that change the world even to the point where there is a catastrophic event(s) that destroy a major city (node) by either pvp or the will of the gods as the earth swallows half the city and turns it into an underground labyrinth that must be rediscovered and developed. I can think of endless permutations that would challenge players, who would then have to progress back through a different method ( questing, Archeology, religion, discovery etc..)  than just the brute force supplied by their epic/legendary end game items. As an example i remember in Asherons Call when the dev's had a world event that destroyed Arwic which was a major hub in the game. The destruction was devastating and New Arwic took a long time to rise back up.  Don't limit the dev's or your selves by settling for the typical "end game" garbage. Immersive play that involves only 10 to 20% of the best players groups  (typically the absolute end games is only accomplished by that number in MMORPG's) won't keep your game alive in this generation.  A changing world that needs everyone will keep it alive and flourishing
    I can't decide if I agree or disagree, lol. Your first paragraph, I think, I disagree with; most of the folk I know want to create guilds with the mindset of having like-minded people to hang out & do stuff with. But that's neither here nor there, really.

    Your second paragraph, specifically "Immersive play that involves on 10 to 20% ..."? I think that's dead on, but I also think time spans have a lot to do with what's happening in themepark MMOs. I mean, we're talking months to build up a node to a metropolis, right? So that's months of character building, node building, so on and so forth. 

    How many of today's MMORPG players are willing to commit themselves to months of gameplay for an objective, when so many have been conditioned to be level capped & raid-ready within days?
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    Isende said:
    Uzial said:
    I think everyone misses the point of the dynamic node based world.

    Typically people want to create a guild with the mindset of dominating the server and any opposing guilds / factions. I have done this and literally killed a server including pvping the GM's who came into the pvp area with no rules set wo there were fair game. After getting thumped they made me stop but the point is eventually we ran everyone off the server and that was the end. Pretty Dismal and the game itself deserved to be ended.

     That aside The NODE system should provide us with continuous events that change the world even to the point where there is a catastrophic event(s) that destroy a major city (node) by either pvp or the will of the gods as the earth swallows half the city and turns it into an underground labyrinth that must be rediscovered and developed. I can think of endless permutations that would challenge players, who would then have to progress back through a different method ( questing, Archeology, religion, discovery etc..)  than just the brute force supplied by their epic/legendary end game items. As an example i remember in Asherons Call when the dev's had a world event that destroyed Arwic which was a major hub in the game. The destruction was devastating and New Arwic took a long time to rise back up.  Don't limit the dev's or your selves by settling for the typical "end game" garbage. Immersive play that involves only 10 to 20% of the best players groups  (typically the absolute end games is only accomplished by that number in MMORPG's) won't keep your game alive in this generation.  A changing world that needs everyone will keep it alive and flourishing
    How many of today's MMORPG players are willing to commit themselves to months of gameplay for an objective, when so many have been conditioned to be level capped & raid-ready within days?

    Just curious. Are there many new games that have characters level capped and raid ready within a few days early into launch? Or is trend to this from older games trying to drum up interest by boosting new players 

    I ask this because can't think of any but I must admit that I haven't been playing many of the recent Mmos. 
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    Just curious. Are there many new games that have characters level capped and raid ready within a few days early into launch? Or is trend to this from older games trying to drum up interest by boosting new players 

    I ask this because can't think of any but I must admit that I haven't been playing many of the recent Mmos. 
    In WoW you can level a new character to max level in under 6 hours. After that you can be carried by your mates through raids and get endgame raiding gear in another few hours. 
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    I believe it;s fairly common (though correct me if i am wrong, as I am not an active player in current MMOs) now for moderate time investment to have completed* content by design in 3 months or less.
    Hardcore 1-2 months...In WoW anyway.

    I believe FFXI has a far more intricate raid structure in comparison.

    As for being raid ready... with the LFG tool implementation you can literally stand in once place and just join queue till you kill the last boss without ever interacting in a global environment.

    Gw2 you can do raids in common gear with skill. But the gear elitists will kick you out for trying.

    And yes the are all themeparks...but the only Sandbox i can think of that's relevant is Minecraft.

    Just downloading Elysium WoW legacy server currently as all my referencing might just be tinted glasses.
    So going to spend a little time with leveling up in some nostalgia.
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    Whocando said:
    I am seeing many posts making references to "End Game"
    This MMO terminology has to stop.
    It is a symptom of single player game design that has crept into the MMO genre overtime to the detriment of the true "Massive Multiplayer Online" experience, which is typically associated with the current plethora of theme park MMO games.

    All these theme park MMOs have a funneling content burst followed by a prolonged drought. Stitched together with daily crumb quests and login rewards to hopefully hold enough attention till the next expansion whereby all previous content becomes irrelevant or casualized overtime.

    Players need to realise this and understand that it is a fundamentally flawed community breaking system.

    MMO's should inherently be anti "End Game" the very notion of a final resolute is counter productive.

    There was a golden age of MMO's before "End Game" where people/players just interacted and spent time engaged with common goals, pursuits or just meeting new people.

    I get the Play Time vibes from Ashes,

    But I would appreciate the "End Game" promoters perhaps take a step back and reassess your MMO values.

    Perhaps even considering "Play Time" the true MMO motivation.



    I just made a point about this and didn't see your post! I want a long grind, I don't want this "end game" to come anytime soon
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Ashes isn't planning to have a grind.
    Ashes isn't planning to have an endgame.

    Just lots of continual, fun, gameplay.
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    Isende said:
    I think most of the folk I know want to create guilds with the mindset of having like-minded people to hang out & do stuff with.
    I think the guilds we typically hear about and know by name (other than our own) are the hardcore guilds who strive to dominate a server.

    I'm a casual challenge player. I am chaotic good. I play according to the beat of my own drums. I don't join guilds with bylaws and commitment rules.

    I think the first guild I joined was with co-workers from Activision at the beginning of WoW. We played together for about 3 weeks, but I remained a member of that guild for over 4 years. That guild message from that last week never got updated.
    I finally switched when I ran into a guild of folks on the Carebear challenge.
    Their one rule was your character had to reach Level 25 or 30 without making any kills.

    Wizard101 didn't support guilds, but we formed what was essentially a loose guild from social media: Skype, Spiral Radio podcast, the Petnome Project, and Twitter.

    In NWO, the streamer channel I followed formed a guild so all the followers could take advantage of in-game guild perks. The only rule was that you had to be a follower of that stream.

    Landmark didn't have guild perks. People formed guilds, but mostly we gathered together via daily or weekly twitch events. Swap meets, after parties, Voxelmancy tutorials, creation tours, gladiator challenges, etc.

    I generally don't pay attention to guilds other than ones that become notorious for causing other players grief. Sometimes there will be guilds large enough to recognize the name just from visiting town. So many members that the name of the guild becomes relatively commonplace.

    In Ashes, guilds will make an impact on the towns where we have citizenship.
    We will know where their guild houses are because they will take up space in the towns. We will know which guilds are fighting over nearby castles.
    We will also know who lives in a city's mansions even if they aren't part of a guild.

    In Ashes, I plan to focus more on being associated with a Thieves Guild than with a player-run guild, but I also expect to join a player-run guild comprised of head start twitch streamers.
    Not so much to dominate a server, but rather to ensure that I'm playing with like-minded people I already enjoy hanging out with - rather than playing together because there are bylaws saying we have to play together..
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    I get what you are saying, but I see Ashes as that Ice Cream Sunday flipped upside down with the cherry on the bottom. The start of this game is going to be sweet and small... And working your way to the vanilla as you probably piece meal some of that cherry into it you get to see a third of the content and how things grow. From there you can either hit the Chocolate or the Strawberry but Ashes should be providing -a large scoop- before adding any other flavors to this bowl known as Content. End Game should be the Ice Cream where it is smooth and fulfilling, the cherry that WoW has for either PvE and PvP should not be short lived for Ashes of Creation because they actually feed off of each other unlike in WoW where they are separate entities of Cherries to pick from. It is, like all things, possible to finish all of the Ice Cream and be the fastest eater.... But those people get Mind Freeze all the time and are stuck in their ways, its how they wish to play the game and GL to that when this is going to be -heavily- a Community Based Game; you can't fight the dragon if the majority or the 'stronger majority' want a Node built up somewhere else, it is out of -one- persons sole control... Which is completely not what WoW is, but kind of is how WoW -Was-.
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    -snip-

    Just curious. Are there many new games that have characters level capped and raid ready within a few days early into launch? Or is trend to this from older games trying to drum up interest by boosting new players 

    I ask this because can't think of any but I must admit that I haven't been playing many of the recent Mmos. 
    You're asking, specifically, about launch of new games. I can't answer to that, other than to say that yes, within hours, there are people who've reached level cap in several of the games I've participated in launches for. Raid ready? Well, those folk are earlier to raid-readiness than others.

    I can also speak to my experience of expansion launches; this time, there are whole guilds who push themselves to the new level cap, just so they can be the first into the new raids.

    It's that mindset that I think people speak out against; the rush to "end game" or whatever you want to call it, just to be the "first" and to be the most prepared and first to achieve things in raids, so on and so forth.
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    It's twofold:
    1: That there is even an endgame, which lasts for 12-24 months.
    2: That because endgame is so prevalent, there is a whole generation of gamers who think endgame is intended to be the "real game".
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