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"End Game" mentality has to die and resurrect "Play Time" from the Ashes.

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    I think the purpose of "End Game" content should be to provide players who have finished the leveling process with difficult and engaging process that still allows them to power up their characters. I don't believe that you have to sacrifice a fun leveling process to provide an engaging End Game experience.

    Whenever anybody plays an MMORPG the underlying goal is to power up your character and get stronger. While there are certainly people who aren't as driven to do this, it is the main goal for the vast majority of players and is what the entire genre is centered around. However, when making a game you can only have players get so powerful and you can only have so many levels. This means that an "End Game" of some sort is unavoidable. As long as all the content isn't reserved for that End Game though, it doesn't pose a problem. 

    Where MMORPG's run into problems is when the dev's focus all their time and effort on either the End Game or the leveling process. If you play a game that has awesome End Game content but a horrible leveling experience (see World of Warcraft) then you have a game that is very unfriendly and boring for new players and will start to stagnate as time goes on. If you have a game that has an awesome leveling experience but no End Game content you will get players who will quit because they are bored and feel like they have already "beat" the game. This becomes even more problematic with MMO's that use a subscription model as there needs to be a constant stream of new content in order to justify the subscription costs. 

    With the way that Ashes is approaching their payment model, I'd say that their best bet to provide a quality game is to focus heavily on the leveling process and then have a shift towards End Game content after the community is established and continue on with that content as time goes on. 
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    For me an mmorpg should be about being part of a community and the experiences that you share with said community. the whole mmorpg genre being centered on leveling the character and gaining power, is not what the genre originally was but it gravitated to that when money grabbers started to take over the genre, and I.S. is trying to change the genre back to what it is ment to be with ashes of creation
    ,
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    I think the simplest way to understand Ashes "endgame* aka max level content" is [Environment vs Player vs Player vs Environment or EvPvPvE]where leveling up the Environment is the actual prerogative with tangible consequences and risk. The player character/s are merely the flux.

    Conventional PvE and PvP segregated carrot on a treadmill systems will not be the primary drive. But will be content accessible by player gating and not script gating.

    Rather than linear scripted paths with and end* objective.
     
    We will hopefully feel compelled to play* due to an world with expansion and retraction.
    Risk and reward.

    I don't feel PvX really conveys the intricacy, it is important to make that clear distinction though.

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    Whocando said:
    I think the simplest way to understand Ashes "endgame* aka max level content" is [Environment vs Player vs Player vs Environment or EvPvPvE]where leveling up the Environment is the actual prerogative with tangible consequences and risk. The player character/s are merely the flux.

    Conventional PvE and PvP segregated carrot on a treadmill systems will not be the primary drive. But will be content accessible by player gating and not script gating.

    Rather than linear scripted paths with and end* objective.
     
    We will hopefully feel compelled to play* due to an world with expansion and retraction.
    Risk and reward.

    I don't feel PvX really conveys the intricacy, it is important to make that clear distinction though.

    I like the way you think :wink:
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    Max content should be repayable and so fun that the thought of participating doesn't just spring from a yearn for reward
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    The content doesn't change at max level. It just continues.

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    Dygz said:
    The content doesn't change at max level. It just continues.

    Agreed, The world will be forever changing. 
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    Windwaker said:
    Max content should be repayable and so fun that the thought of participating doesn't just spring from a yearn for reward
    Considering the world is dynamic, ever-changing, "replayable" isn't necessarily the focus of Ashes. Goodness knows, that's been covered lots in this thread!
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    ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
     mark 37:07
    JEFFREY:   
    Endgame is a bad word to me. I have strong feelings that  the whole game should be fun. It shouldn't be this race to an endgame where the fun actually starts.
    So, we've got a lot of focus on making a lot of the stuff extensible throughout the entire play session.
    That being said, we are going to have raids. We are going to have raids at every level. There's going to be a strong focus on epic content that takes a lot of people to overcome. And it's not going to be just one event that one guild gets to experience, but that multiple people can experience.

    STEVEN:   Right. And I think the most important reason as to why endgame is a bad term for us is because the way that Ashes of Creation is structured as a game is that so there's constantly content that's being revealed to you based on the decisions of the community on the server.

    JEFFREY:   Right. it's more about the evolution of the server than just hitting max level and then going off to the raid system and never touching the rest of the game. So we want to try to retain revelancy throughout the entire world so that, you know, the first zone you start in -hopefully, you'll be seeing it over and over and over again- it's not going to be just something you play for 10 minutes and then you go off to greener pastures. There's always going to be a reason to explore and adventure everywhere.
    And that includes raiding and that includes dungeoneering and that includes a lot of the big world bosses that we have planned.
    So, there's going to be a wide breadth of things to do. We don't want people to get bored. We want there to be different things for people to do every day. because, you know, what you want to do every day changes.

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    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:
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    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:

    My energy to game development ratio is extremely inefficient. If I put years worth of energy into game development I'd probably end up with some gif based adventure. 

    That's why I appreciate game developers. Heh. 

    Speaking of wasted energy, I've been re-watching live streams to pick up on stuff/info that I might have missed out on. Especially with the many posts starving for any form of info/confirmation/hints from the Dev's. 

    Heh heh. 
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    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:

    My energy to game development ratio is extremely inefficient. If I put years worth of energy into game development I'd probably end up with some gif based adventure. 

    That's why I appreciate game developers. Heh. 

    Speaking of wasted energy, I've been re-watching live streams to pick up on stuff/info that I might have missed out on. Especially with the many posts starving for any form of info/confirmation/hints from the Dev's. 

    Heh heh. 
    Cool. Did you uncover any hidden gems or Steven leaks?
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    lexmax said:
    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:

    My energy to game development ratio is extremely inefficient. If I put years worth of energy into game development I'd probably end up with some gif based adventure. 

    That's why I appreciate game developers. Heh. 

    Speaking of wasted energy, I've been re-watching live streams to pick up on stuff/info that I might have missed out on. Especially with the many posts starving for any form of info/confirmation/hints from the Dev's. 

    Heh heh. 
    Cool. Did you uncover any hidden gems or Steven leaks?
    I usually try to share what i find in posts. Like what you and @Dygz have been doing as well. 
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    Whocando said:
    All these theme park MMOs have a funneling content burst followed by a prolonged drought. Stitched together with daily crumb quests and login rewards to hopefully hold enough attention till the next expansion whereby all previous content becomes irrelevant or casualized overtime.

    Players need to realise this and understand that it is a fundamentally flawed community breaking system.

    MMO's should inherently be anti "End Game" the very notion of a final resolute is counter productive.

    There was a golden age of MMO's before "End Game" where people/players just interacted and spent time engaged with common goals, pursuits or just meeting new people.
    I agree with these statements. The main priority above all else should be the community and providing collective goals that people can work towards together. If I wanted to play a solo campaign there are many titles I can choose from that already exist. The MMO genre should be about team work.

    For me an mmorpg should be about being part of a community and the experiences that you share with said community. the whole mmorpg genre being centered on leveling the character and gaining power, is not what the genre originally was but it gravitated to that when money grabbers started to take over the genre, and I.S. is trying to change the genre back to what it is ment to be with ashes of creation
    ,
    It seems like once companies realized they could generate money by simply moving a goal post further away and allowing power creep to make previously "end game" content to be meaningless; many decided innovation isn't worth the risk. Very similar to what many developers are doing now by releasing F2P mobile games with ridiculous cash shop schemes.

    Dygz said:
     mark 37:07
    JEFFREY:   
    Endgame is a bad word to me. I have strong feelings that  the whole game should be fun. It shouldn't be this race to an endgame where the fun actually starts.
    So, we've got a lot of focus on making a lot of the stuff extensible throughout the entire play session.
    That being said, we are going to have raids. We are going to have raids at every level. There's going to be a strong focus on epic content that takes a lot of people to overcome. And it's not going to be just one event that one guild gets to experience, but that multiple people can experience.
    I don't mind the concept of having some content gated behind levels / time investment. But I do believe much like GW2's approach, the same content you have at the beginning should be very similar to what you'll be doing as you reach the higher levels. I don't like the idea that suddenly the whole game style is supposed to be very different.

    All that does is alienate players that enjoyed the journey through the game from what they're left to do and makes players that might enjoy the later content not be bothered to sit through and grind just to reach it.



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    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:
    Not entirely true.  The way I see it, our positive energy and enthusiasm only serves to fuel the motivation of the dev team.  So, I say we keep it up and they'll be inspired to do their part and we'll all get there together.  :)
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    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:
    Not entirely true.  The way I see it, our positive energy and enthusiasm only serves to fuel the motivation of the dev team.  So, I say we keep it up and they'll be inspired to do their part and we'll all get there together.  :)
    Agreed
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    Possum said:
    lexmax said:
    If the amount of energy spent on the forums and discord went into developing the game, maybe we'd all be playing it by now :persevere:
    Not entirely true.  The way I see it, our positive energy and enthusiasm only serves to fuel the motivation of the dev team.  So, I say we keep it up and they'll be inspired to do their part and we'll all get there together.  :)
    I don't think we are in disagreement :) 
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