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The AoC PvP / PK Corruption system ... Love it? Hate it? Please change it?

2456

Comments

  • Not a fan of open-world pvp due to ganking.
    I wouldn't mind flagged open-world pvp.
    That way there is no ganking, and hardcore pvp'ers would have more of a challenge fighting people who fight back.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I am a little worried about the stat decay you get from corruption and think it might be too much. I want pkers to be punished but I also want them to exist.
    +1

    The thing people have to realize is that in these types of games, pvp is literally essential. Someone is farming your openworld dungeon? Flag up and take back your spot. The problem with this system is that if you flag up, kill the people farming your spot, now you have a percentage of stats that you once had, and can only be removed upon death, which is utterly ridiculous.

    The stat decay is too much for an openworld game.
  • Mr.C said:
    Not a fan of open-world pvp due to ganking.
    I wouldn't mind flagged open-world pvp.
    That way there is no ganking, and hardcore pvp'ers would have more of a challenge fighting people who fight back.
    >doesn't like ganking
    >prefers flagged openworld pvp

    The system is literally flagged openworld pvp, however it is too punishing. You are the reason why democracy is a failed system.
  • So far it's all 'theoretical,' but the system proposed looks like it might be ok. As long as IS is open to feedback once the game (alpha/beta/whatever) starts, and the community is feeding back openly, then in time, an approved balance will be reached. Some may leave as a result, but perhaps many more will be attracted to stay.
  • Easy said:
    Mr.C said:
    Not a fan of open-world pvp due to ganking.
    I wouldn't mind flagged open-world pvp.
    That way there is no ganking, and hardcore pvp'ers would have more of a challenge fighting people who fight back.
    >doesn't like ganking
    >prefers flagged openworld pvp

    The system is literally flagged openworld pvp, however it is too punishing. You are the reason why democracy is a failed system.
    'The system is literally flagged openworld pvp, however it is too punishing.' - No it is not. Flagged open world pvp means you can only attack players that have flagged themselves for pvp as well.
    '
    You are the reason why democracy is a failed system.' - What an idiotic statement. Wtf are you talking about.
    1. The only way to reduce the RED Corrupt Players Corruption Score and Experience Debt is through their death. If you have a higher Corruption Score, the longer it will take to cleanse your Corruption.
    2. With death brings a chance to break the RED Corrupt Players carried equipment.

      The punishments are too much. In this case, the only way to cleanse yourself of this status is through risking losing gear, which is undeniably unfair for simply killing people who will refuse to fight back.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I agree that a green minding their own business should not have to be too concerned about being 'randomly' pked (either once or multiple times).

    I disagree that a green who is not minding their own business, but instead willfully interfering with whatever i'm trying to accomplish, should be able to do so with impunity, knowing that i can't afford to push him out of that position with force, because i will flag red if i kill him.

    The system SHOULD be designed punish those who grief pk/gank greens and low lever targets who are just trying to get by.

    The system should NOT offer protection to parasites who are deliberately trolling you.

    There are two sides to this problem, and most people are only looking at one side.

    @Mr.C

    Imagine you are a Green player, just out gathering resources, and you've found yourself a sweet spot with lots of good stuff.  You're making great headway with the gathering, but then someone else comes along and starts taking all the resources.  Maybe he's got a speed potion or something, so he always gets there faster than you.  You were there first, and its the best place you know of, but now this guy is taking everything, and your effort is just being wasted.  

    He's rude to you. He won't leave.  
    You can kill him, but you'll get corruption, and he'll be back in 30 seconds doing the same thing anyway.  The only solution is for you to give up every time someone challenges you for a gathering territory. 

    Don't be fooled by the fact that you're both still Green and nobody died.  The pvp battle still took place, and the person who gave up the spot is the one who lost. 
  • I've changed my mind. After reading the points made on both sides on all the threads dedicated to this topic and after contemplating it thoroughly by myself and with friends, I have decided that I agree that the stat decay is the wrong way to go about punishing pkers. Instead, red players should be kill on sight for npc guards in towns, cities, and metropolises. And other npcs should refuse to interact with reds. I feel like that combined with the bounty system and 3x harsher death penalties would be enough to decentivize mass murder pking while allowing for people to pk (and have the ability to properly defend themselves against bounty hunters afterward) if they so wish. This  seems fair to me at least. 
  • I disagree with the PvP / PK Corruption mechanic and feel it too harshly punishes the perpetrator.
    Players should've option to fight for spots. It differentiates player by skill level and lets them get what they deserve to get. The more skillful you are, the better you can play, the more goods you gets. That's how games work, is't it? ;) 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    To all who agreed to this system, just looking wide, put you into the place of PK. You are walking through forrest for example and all spots with mobs already taken. How you will going to get things from MOBs or make exp if nobody will care about you? You will try to fight with others but nobody will flag cause in sure that you will never PK them beacause you can loose your weapon/armor/ or something else wich not equal that you have expected to drop from MOBs/Players. If you will kill someone and  wish to stay alive and keep save your armor/weapon you have to kill all around cause nobody will turn purple attacking red one. With state degradation penalties you couldn't fight as much as  you can and the more people you kill - more Curraption scores you will get - more chances to loose your good equipment. So the scenario has defined you will loose if you even try to press out other players from spot. And thats why nobody will flag / hit back you if you wish pvp, cause of 100% sure that you will never get into unequal fight!!!!

    _____
    Dear Devs, I hope you will make balance this aspect. And thats why I suggest you one good mechanic for this. If there will be a bountry hunters - make sure that the Curruption players may also stick together through map or somekind else to fight back against Bounty Hunters  -  the proof for Bounty Hunters viewing the PK on the map and some Buffs. And the proof for PK who would kill Bounty Hunters will decrease the penalties they have or will reduce the time of this penalties and also Can drop from Bounty Hunters some equipment!!!. Don't make the mechanics a static rules!!! Just keep in mind the bet must be equivalent.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Just a quick fyi reminder, maybe someone else said it already, but something that seems to be still a common misconception is:
    "Kill one player, lose gear"
    It's just not true, first you rake up stat decay parallel to gaining corruption for each player you kill and just at a certain corruption point there is a CHANCE to lose gear on death.
    I haven't heard anything that has changed in that regard and shouldn't be talked about in any other way.
  • Grisu said:
    Just a quick fyi reminder, maybe someone else said it already, but something that seems to be still a common misconception is:
    "Kill one player, lose gear"
    It's just not true, first you rake up stat decay parallel to gaining corruption for each player you kill and just at a certain corruption point there is a CHANCE to lose gear on death.
    I haven't heard anything that has changed in that regard and shouldn't be talked about in any other way.
    We need more information from Devs!!!
  • Pretty much all we have right now is here, but please comment if I've missed anything :)

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/33075/information-world-pvp/p1
  • @J4y So stop going around spreading miss information, that's what we know. Stop spreading around that you definitely lose equipment the moment you kill someone. It is not true based on what we know.
    Balancing will come with play testing, but they don't intend to punish red players that harshly or give me a quote where they changed their mind.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    @Grisu Not harshly enought? 

    Player corruption

    • A player’s corruption score increases with each non-combatant player killed.

    • The wider the level disparity between the players the more corruption will be gained.

    • The higher the corruption score, the higher drop percentage when the corrupted player is killed (see Player death below).

    • The higher the corruption score, the more skill and stat dampening applies, until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.

    • Corruption is removed through death. Multiple deaths may be necessary to remove all corruption. There may be other mechanics to reduce corruption.

    • Corruption has a visible effect on a player’s appearance.

    • A corrupt player’s location is revealed to bounty hunters.

    Player death

    • non-combatant who dies suffers normal penalties, which include experience debt, durability loss, as well as dropping a percentage of carried raw materials.

    • combatant who dies suffers these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.

    • corrupt player suffers penalties at three or four times the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes weapons, gear, and inventory items.

    • After death, players respawn at random spawn locations.

    Asking @Lexmax to stop it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017

    The corruption system is supposed to be a deterrent to harassing other players.  It's like law in the RL.  If you decide to break it, then suffer the consequences.  

    For those that worry about greens taking over their cherished spot, I've news for you,
    Resources such as mines and dungeons are   being developed as SHARED. Your  options are to share, fight over it or leave.   Also remember everyone out in the world is going to have to go into other's far off areas to accomplish what needs to be done.    NO ONE OWNS a dungeon or resource.  

    It seems all I read from the biggest complainers the more I see insecurity and doubts of their own selves and abilities to find a way to really get involved and play a well thought out game.  It doesn't take brains to murder but it does take brains and the ability to find other ways to work things out.   

    Interesting how most were drawn to this game due to what Steven and the Devs envisioned, yet some want to change what the devs have planned before we get to see it for our selves.   We are being given the opportunity to test the system and give our input but some want to change it now instead of seeing how it will actually work. How sad.







  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    To be short, the game mechanics should punish PK players, but in the way to stop them going on killing spree. See Black Desert EU  the open world PvP is dead, see BDO RU with even more harsh penalties (PvP downgrade) it is dead as well. See Ultima Online with its unique mechanics , it is still alive after 20 years.
    Open world PvP is the best thing in mmorpg, it is a social engine , and an infinity fun generator . Open PvP is the reason to defeat the boss and get the best gear, it is the main thing why people stay in game after CAP.
    I saw too many people who pretend that they care about the balance but actually they want to avoid PvP as far as possible, and want to play the game as if it was offline fun farm.
    RISK=REWARD=PvX
  • And the hate and vitriol already raising it's ugly head in these posts is exactly why I voted to make the restrictions even stronger. Start out from a position of strength, then reduce penalties once proven too harsh. Many of the Russians screaming here for fewer penalties and even open loot should be used to the caress of the velvet glove. Poll has been up all day, and there are less than 100 responses. But I guarantee you there is a subset that believes that if they scream the longest and loudest that they will win out. What do you think is going to happen? That next week in the middle of PAX Steven is going to have an epiphany and realize that they have been going about it all wrong and wipe away any penalties for griefing? That there is going to be a discussion around a conference table with them going "Well, I saw some really well thought out forum posts by 4 or 5 guys, let's scrap what we have been working on for the last year and half and go with what they wrote, cause they some insightful guys." That is the problem with the internet, you sit there all day in the echo chamber, and eventually you begin to believe your own bullshit smells like candy.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    @UnknownSystemError Your post is racist , and you are alone in your opinion. Chill dude.
  • Actually you could claim it be jingoism, since Russia is a country and not a race, hard as they may try to justify that.
  • Wraeven said:
    in some mmos there will be a particular area that is good for one person to occupy... let's call it a farm. A resource farm, a creature farm.. whatever.


    now a farm will provide 100 units of mcguff to one person. Cool I'm getting tons of mcguff this way!

    suddenly a wild scavenger appears and starts farming in the same field.  Before you were getting 100 units.. now your lucky to get 50, in the same time with twice the effort cuz the newcomer isn't any keener on sharing than you are.

    hey can you go somewhere else plz? I'm farming here.

    So, this is the gist of what I'm seeing, and I gotta admit, I'm now laughing.

    Again, younger crop of players. You're like children in a sandbox screaming "Don't take my sand!"

    For what it's worth, sand in a sandbox was put there to promote social play, not to promote one child's having all the sand. In the same way, the resources out in the world are there for everyone. This ain't that game where you stalk and then stake out "your" little private section of the world and then refuse to allow other players. If I'm out gathering and someone else comes along? Ok, I'm gonna go find another spot to get what I need, or maybe I'll see if that person and I can trade, or even maybe something like "Hey, man, are you farming that to sell? Cuz, like, if so, let's talk."

    MMORPG, for those who forget, means massively mulitiplayer, not single player. If you want your own spot in your own little world, go play a single player. If you want to play an MMO, then let's relearn how to behave in a sandbox, hmm?
  • I think the way it is is the best system for the game at the moment. We have yet to see if it really works or not. Wont know till the game goes live.
  • The bounty hunter mechanic is amazing in my opinion and i foresee many ppl participate. However with red players loosing gear and get stat debuffs, i imagine very very few ppl will decide to go red..
    So if someone goes red he will immediatly be chased down by dozens of players.
    I dont really care for the poor red player, but i want to spend most of my time bounty hunting and i want fair fights instead of twenty vs one debuffed guy.
  • I was on the receiving end of the bounty system in SWG and I can tell you it is no fun for the red player. And that is the point. Bounty hunting is not going to be something you do as a career, but more of a side thing that pops up occasionally. You will have to be part of a military node to even join. Though they haven't clarified if you can retain BH status and be a citizen of say a scientific node. Don't expect hordes of red players to be available to be your content every day when you log on. However, there will be plenty of regular flagged pvp to scratch that itch. The flagging mechanic is meant to be meaningful, so you have to think hard about the choice you are making, not just "Whhheeeee, gonna get me some green today!!"
  • Uao said:
    The bounty hunter mechanic is amazing in my opinion and i foresee many ppl participate. However with red players loosing gear and get stat debuffs, i imagine very very few ppl will decide to go red..
    So if someone goes red he will immediatly be chased down by dozens of players.
    I dont really care for the poor red player, but i want to spend most of my time bounty hunting and i want fair fights instead of twenty vs one debuffed guy.
    Fix, no one will go red, and no one will play AoC. 
  • How do I see the punishments for PK. A bit more xp loss, guards are aggressive to you, if bounty hunter kills you , you send to jail for couple of hours ( but remove the location on the map , too op) , special cities for PK , a possibility to spawn in your house. 
  • Eleanc said:
    Uao said:
    The bounty hunter mechanic is amazing in my opinion and i foresee many ppl participate. However with red players loosing gear and get stat debuffs, i imagine very very few ppl will decide to go red..
    So if someone goes red he will immediatly be chased down by dozens of players.
    I dont really care for the poor red player, but i want to spend most of my time bounty hunting and i want fair fights instead of twenty vs one debuffed guy.

    Fix, no one will go red, and no one will play AoC. 
    Since when do you speak for everyone?  lol  

    Eleanc said:
    @UnknownSystemError Your post is racist , and you are alone in your opinion. Chill dude.

    UnknownSystemError  stated:
    "Many of the Russians screaming here for fewer penalties and even open loot should be used to the caress of the velvet glove."

    That is not a racist  remark.  It is  "jingoism".  Look the word up if you don't know what it means.   

    You cry loud and foul yet your facts are lacking.  You are here to criticize a game you haven't even tried yet.   Children throwing tantrums do the same thing.  When they have parents that give into them they also grow into immature adults who think they can bully others into giving into them also.   Sad.

  • Isende said:
    Wraeven said:
    in some mmos there will be a particular area that is good for one person to occupy... let's call it a farm. A resource farm, a creature farm.. whatever.


    now a farm will provide 100 units of mcguff to one person. Cool I'm getting tons of mcguff this way!

    suddenly a wild scavenger appears and starts farming in the same field.  Before you were getting 100 units.. now your lucky to get 50, in the same time with twice the effort cuz the newcomer isn't any keener on sharing than you are.

    hey can you go somewhere else plz? I'm farming here.

    So, this is the gist of what I'm seeing, and I gotta admit, I'm now laughing.

    Again, younger crop of players. You're like children in a sandbox screaming "Don't take my sand!"

    It would be awesome if this sort of reply didn't have to be phrased as an insult.  

    Im not from a younger crop. I was playing telnet muds while the internet was still learning how to crawl.

    it is exactly because of all my previous experience that this idea concerns me. And don't get me wrong, I absolutely hope you're right, and that this game is designed in a way where the problem I've described doesn't happen. That would be awesome.

    but speaking from experience in a hundred different games, it is a very very common issue, and not one that strangers tend to play nice with each other about.

    if there is no punishment for pvp than yes, decent people just trying to play the game will get bulldozers by jerks.

    but if the punishment for pvp is too high, decent people just trying to play the game will get trolled by jerks instead. 

    It might take a different form than I've suggested, but people are people and if there is a way to abuse a mechanic unfairly, they will use it.

    Don't take my word for it. Ask the devs.  

    In the latest livestream they said no to implementing a betting system on arena battles, because, while it would be nice for honest players, it would be too easy to abuse by trolls who would throw the game.

    The issue is not as one-sided as you say. And the people on the other side of it are just trying to be realistic based on what they've seen in the past.
  • @Eleanc
    Absolutely no.
    It would be enough to remove the debuff but instead prevent red players from creating groups with a greater size of 2.
    Beeing chased by bounty hunters + loosing gear is enough of a penalty. Also getting a debuff that makes u unabel to defend urself is just certain death - u could just disabel open world pvp from beginn with.
    The limited group size would prevent pk groups who camp points of interests. Because the usual strategy there is to aoe everything down which doesnt work if u kill ur own team by doing so. However even red players may dont want to play alone all the time: so group size of 2.

    @UnknownSystemError
    with 10000 online players im sure there will regulary be red players + it takes much time to get to them without fast travel, so it doesnt even need to be too frequent to keep me busy.
    If the penalty is too hard, red players will most likely just log out to prevent getting killed and let a friend come to kill them without looting later.
    That would be very frustrating for me particulary if i spend much time chasing him and he just pushes alt+f4 when i finaly reach him.

    Btw in addition to the flagging system id like to see green players beeing invulnerable if they didnt perform any action for 3+ minutes. Otherwise naked red players will kill afk players all day without reciving any penalty.
  • Karthos said:
    You dont get it; you are not purple you are both green and you have the resources first and, say you are on a slow class, and going about your business and a fast class comes, who is also green and starts taking the resources right from under you. So because you are not a fast class or may not have the gathering level you just have to concede to the other guy or you can fight over it. So if a green person just gathers resources and never fights back there is never a way to clear him off the node he always gets it it is his because he never has to fight
    Why are you purple to begin with?

    I don't think you understand that a system you advocate doesn't promote PvP like you think it does. Because the people who benefit from it won't be out looking for meaningful PvP, they will be looking for easy target and ganking. 

    The simple concept here is "actions have consequences".  So you turned purple. That means you initiated combat. You brought it on yourself. You didn't attach someone flagged up of combat, you found someone no ready or willing to fight. 

    And now you're purple. Because of actions YOU did. And actions have consequences.

    What charmed life do you lead where you feel this doesn't apply to you?

This discussion has been closed.