Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
World of Warcraft has long been the largest game for a PvP MMO community, don't fall down the same path they did. When they pruned (removed) a lot of class abilities in a previous Xpack, they lost a ton of players and had and still have complaints of pruning.
If they aim for 30 total skills as someone claimed somewhere above, the highest amount of possible variations would occur at 15 active skills.
Just 1 active skill more or less would reduce the amount of variations by exactly 9694845 (6,25%).
+- 2 skills would reduce variation by 22,79%
+- 3 skills by 44,24%
+- 4 by 64,78%
+- 5 by 80,63%
All based on the assumption that one could choose freely between all 30 skills without talent tree limitations.
Tree limitations quickly reduce the total numbers of variations from multiple millions to a few dozen depending on implementation. Usualy the percentage rankings dont change too much but get more linear.
Btw, with 40 total skills to choose from and 20 active skills, there would be 88865,87% more possible variations than with 30 total and 15 active skills.
This is no opinion, just facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient
One might think that reduced number of skills you can slot increases build diversity, but that's not really the case.
In PvE, people will quickly figure out which skills provide you the most DPS/best heals or grp buffs etc, and in PvP you also have "must slot" skills on every class and wind up with maybe only one or two flexible skill slots.
In the end, you end up spamming the same skill over and over again and it gets really bland, really quick.
The idea might be good, but it doesn't work in practice.
Majority of the Folks here want fewer abilities ... yet you think that'll SOMEHOW increase the amount of options ?! You think have fewer skills is better ... because the Rotation dictates so much ?!?
#facepam#
Combat doesn't have to relative to anything we've seen in any MMO before - it doesn't need to copy any of the Current-trash MMOs out there,
How about ..." think outside the box " ?!??
I mean .. ffs, Devs are being unfathomably transparent to its Community of the Production ... even gladly wanting to hear our Opinions about the MMO's Combat BEFORE Alpha ?!!? ( which is near unheard-of )
.... And you want the Combat to copy other MMOs ?!
The way i see it, if the Devs are willing to listen & consider its Communities' ideas, I'd say make better use of it & think carefully about it ... because so far it looks like
" it's digging its own grave "
Its Logic:
- Less Abilties = Fewer options >> not enough Diversity of player Builds >> " Meta " begins to exists in AShes of Creation >> Some Player Builds will not be accepted by other players because of " that same Meta " >> Less Diversity in Races/Archetypes ( etc ... ) because they'll be a preference in Stats ( Just like Pokemon HandHeld Games ) >> No longer any fun due to ... " Elitest-types "
- More Abilities = Far more versatility/ options for many viable Builds >> Meta will NEVER exist >>leading to a " True -Freedom of Choice " without worrying about the Acceptance of other Players in group-content - Each Build having its own Unique Pros & Cons but none of them being Perfect ... all the while still being allowed to make you're own " small-tweaks "
(Not referring to Archetype Combinations, but rather additional Tweaking )What keeps people from dragging the 12 most shiny skills into their actionbar and let others enjoy indepth combat with 40+ abilitys?
One could totaly do basic pve rotations+some evasion with 12 skills anyway, it wouldn't have any downside compared to limiting everyone to 12 abilitys.
The main arguments of the 10 skill limit crowd are, that they dont want to read and remember so many abilitys/keybinds as well as quickly moving fingers across the keyboard.
Its just a natural thing that better player who spend much time to optimize builds and practice are better in pvp, dont demand to easily beat others without beeing superior/putting more effort into the game.
The argument there would be more strategy with less skills is a simple lie.
The more skills, the more can be used for new strategies.
The last main argument is that they dont want to overload the ui with buttons.
However its easily possible to design a ui that provides you all the abilitys without displaying every skill across the screen.
Its one check box click to hide parts of the actionbar.
One move on the UI size slider.
One move on transparent UI slider.
Maybe some active UI that doesnt show skills that are/arn't ready.
A mmorpg is ment to be played for months/years, dont be too lazy to setup your option settings within 20 min.
There are games that have (aoe) spamfest combat, but thats a complete diffrent topic.
Its not to blame the amount of abilitys but the lack of diversity of ability types or balancing between types and mana pools within those particular games.
The only thing thats somehow arguable is that 12 skill players would be in a major disadvantage in pvp. But not really because this game isn't for 6 year olds that have to get everything without effort.
Especially since in Ashes combat, you can't spam abilities.
Also, if you choose to only use the same 10 skills regardless of the situation - the choice of boring gameplay is on you; not the devs.
Overrides the RPG aspects of the game.
You don't have to spend time optimizing builds when everyone has the same 40 skills available.
With the 10-slot hotbar, we will have access to 23+ active abilities.
That is sufficient for adding variety without having to swap abilities on the hot-bar too often.
One easy way to swap abilities on the hot-bar fairly quickly during combat, if 23 is not enough, is to switch weapons.
Players will be using a different set of skills to have access to more than 23 active abilities - still challenging, but in a different way than in previous MMORPGs.
40 active skills is unnecessary bloat. Trim the fat.
Perhaps the maths is troublesome.
There are 2 option to be chosen out of a pool of 100 to place on the toobar .....odds 2/100 of people duplicating the choice of those 100 skills.
There are 10 option to be chosen out of a pool of 100 to place on the toolbar.....odds 10/100 of people duplicating the choice of those 100 skills.
How do you figure options 2 leads to more build variety where there is a 1/10 chance instead of a 1/50 chance of build duplication ?
ESO hopelessly failed ot balance anything, which is why they Have a new FoTM build every update and why there is only ever a tiny narrow pool of 'viable' skills.
if they increase the number of active skill they should also increase the Pool Size of skills ... ; ))
There's no way you'd ever slot a situational skill in ESO for example, because there's simply no room for them.
And that's with zero cooldowns.
In Ashes it's even more imperative to have many skill slots, as skills will have cooldowns (thank god).
Ideally you'd have those 8-10 semi-spammable skills with relatively short cooldowns, and then another 10-12 powerful, longer cooldown skills as well as situational ones that you really have to think before using.
Or atleast that's how I'd imagine an ideal skill system to be.
I'm not the biggest fan of the screen full of skill bars & icons either, but having played games like ESO & GW2 that restrict the amount of skills you can use, I'd take that system any day over having just a handful of skills to use.
but i dont get why somebody prefer LESS available Skills .. i mean JUST 10 active skills ... thats boring as f*** .
i just dont get it .. every argument im reading is just an ANTI argument why things are still ok with a 10 skill hotbar.
and fack the build variety ... i rather have just 6 "unigue" Builds (with a lot if skills )for a Class than hundreds of Builds and just 10 active skills !!!!!!!
solo and multiplayer is completly independent from amount of skills, wow indeed had a problem with lack of unique ideas but ashes has another game design that makes it easier for unique skills. They want you to be abel to choose action combat skills and tab target skills - that increases the ideas for possible skills by a huge degree and provides unique skills even with big skill pool.
@Dygz
One will always be abel to spam abilitys if you loosen the semantics of the word 'spam' a little. In fact its easier to literally spam something when theres less choice.
I dont know how 1242955257000000 times! more options could result in less time to create the build. (80 total+40 active vs 30 total+12 active)
Thats no number i made up, that is an actual hard fact and u just need to create 2.67 as many skills to reach that crazy amount of options.
This doesnt mean a player would be abel to do everything on his own. The fighter would still only be abel to choose from attacks that are typical for said fighter. No tanking or healing abilitys or what ever.
And it doesnt matter how many names you put into the combo mechanic to imaginary increase the amount of abilitys, in the end your still clicking the 1 button which smh makes it the same ability regardless its name or animation. Thats pure button spamming at its best to make various attacks trigger all from same shitty button. The QTE doesnt change that fact to any degree at all.
40 abilitys may be too much for some people, but as i said before and @Jubilum said it too, if there are too many skills for you just use as many as you are comfortable with.
Analogically if you want to play a crafter, you wouldnt demand to remove combat from the game because you dont need it.
@Rune_Relic
the possibilitys resulting of 100 choose 2 is 4950,
while the possibilitys of 100 choose 10 is 17310309460000.
(...and 100 choose 50 is 1*10^29. Yea thats a 1 with 29 zeros behind. GL finding 2 players that come up with the exact same build without intentionaly copying each other)
Your math makes no sense. Your assuming people would need to pick one of 10 sets of 10 skills// one of 50 sets of 2 skills. But you excluded all possebilitys like someone choosing skill nr 1,2,3,4,5,33,66,77,88,99. Instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.
thats how you get the real numbers. Pay more attention in school guys...
Spamming buttons has one specific meaning.
Clicking the 1 button provides access to 5+ abilities on the weapon.
The names of the 5 abilities on the weapon don't matter, true.
That they are 5 different abilities which trigger 5 different results does matter.
The key that triggers the abilities is not synonymous with the ability itself.
Spamming the 1 key will result in you missing the sweet-spot the vast majority of the time. Which means you won't build Focus and you will be stuck only triggering the basic weapon ability at a slower rate than if you purposefully hit the sweet spot.
Spamming the 1 key will have the same effect as ignoring the QTE.
Which, again, is why the sweet spot is random rather than fixed.
The sweet spot being random makes spamming the key useless.
Having 40 skills on the hot-bar makes combat too easy, reduces challenge, and creates cookie-cutter builds.
The devs want combat to be more strategic - with a key aspect of the strategy being ability choice on a limited hot-bar.
people say spamming even if they mean to push the button repeatedly at a slower time observing speed, theres just no word for it (that im aware of) and it takes more time to write that sentence. Picking on other people's semantics even after they told you what they initially meant is childish. Also it doesn't change any of my arguments.
And i never said to change its meaning 'completly', all i wanted was you to remember what i told you, what i mean when i use the word spamming, days ago...
So, again, yea, literaly spaming the 1 key at all times is a stupid idea, but honestly who would do that? Even while playing games like wow, you spam the ability until you see it start casting than stop for 0,9 seconds and right before the gcd runs off you start spamming again.
This works for the qte combo just as well, start the attack, wait till you reach the sweetspot and start spamming until the next chain starts/ make another little break if the sweetspot wasnt close to the end of the bar.
Usualy when people complain about spamming abilitys, theyre talking about the 'use some random second attack right away when the gcd runs off'
Noone is so stupid to keep pushing the same button 15 times a second even if it has no effect for at least 0,9 sec, thats bad for your keyboard aswell as your fingers and doesnt affect any combat mechanics since the inputs would just be ignored by your computer.
The only way to stop the real spamming problem would be to punish the player if he mindlessly uses a ability, like the example i describe with the tera combat system below.
While i always try to provide reasonable logic to my arguments with an as honest as possible background, you just seem to make bold statements that make no sense without explanation. How would the increase of skills reduce challenge without additional boundary conditions and how do you intend to have better strategic choices with less options, explain yourself.
I make a simplistic example why many abilitys wouldnt reduce difficulty:
A: Player X has 3 skills at a time.
Player X uses attack 1.
While using attack 1, he has to think about if he uses attack 2 or attack 3 next.
He chooses attack 2 because its situationaly better than attack 3.
(maybe he has to use attack 3 first w\e)
After that he use attack 1 again because its cooldown run off.
(you cant have long cooldowns on basic attacks if theres no big attack pool)
combo chains and QTE dont change anything about the fact that your just abel to use 1212123 or 123123123 or with combochain: 11111231111123.
There is no freaking other option.
B: Player Y has 15 skills at a time. (the actual numbers arnt important and could be easily replaced with any other numbers, just 15>3 is meaningful)
Player Y uses attack 1.
Meanwhile he has to think about if hes going to use attack 2-15.
A choice between 14 options is harder than a choice between 2 options, thats just logical. If attack 1 has a attack chain it doesnt change anything, my statement would just change to a choice between 15 options is harder than 3 options until the chain is done.
After his next attack he still has a big choice to make since there are still 13 options instead of 1.
The attack after that would still have 12 options for player Y while player X already repeats his initial rotation and thus has no more penalties for a potential wrong choice he may have done, while player Y still needs to deal with potential misstakes for a long time.
The more skills you have the more situational and with longer cooldown they can be. Which means if you make a wrong decision it would be worse because you loose a situational skill that would be important at another time.
Or do you think with 12 aviable skills there will be 6 of them with 3 min cooldown so if you use them you will run around with 6 skills remaining that probably have a cooldown too so after 12 attacks you keep using the idk 0.5 sec cooldown combo skill for 20 seconds and call it more strategic and not button spamming?
Thats why there couldnt be many impactful strategic long cooldown skills with a small amount of aviable skills.
And no, not using all the long cooldown skills right away doesnt change that problem at all. You would just repeatedly use the combo right away and use the cd skills later, if you didnt get roasted already bec someone else did use all the cds right away.
So less long cooldown abilitys?
Thats totaly strategic and would totaly not lead to button spamming - irony off.
Tera is a perfect example of how to design skills in a way that makes spamming impossible and it hasn't much to do with the amount of skills,
(beside choices have to be more carfully thought out not only because a bigger ability pool allows for longer cooldowns which give misstakes a long term penalty).
The secret is to lock the attack direction the moment the button is pushed and delay the attack impact by 0.3-1.5 seconds. That way every missplaced attack is punishing and cooldowns make it even worse. It requires deep strategys to beat your enemys, good aiming skills and !most importantly patience! not to push buttons too early.
The first time i played that game i had a duel with a friend and we didnt hit each other for ~3 minutes because we've been too used to button spam mechanics of games like wow.
But wow doesnt have a button spam mechanic because of its many skills, its because of the way tab targeting works and because the main abilitys still didnt have long cooldowns.
Actualy im not even a fan of simple cooldowns. A certain amount of charges would make even more sense. The cooldowns behind these could be even way longer (maybe refill faster [or even partialy only]through food that could only be eaten in a tavern). Which makes the perfect timings even more meaningful. All these cannot work with 10-12 skills.
The 5 diffrent abilitys within a combo are just part of one qte mechanic, they always have the same outcome if you dont do mistakes, and mistakes arnt desirable at any time.
They may do diffrent amount of dmg/various effects seperately but in the end you will try to use them all since the further you get into the combo the stronger it gets. And after its completion you have x dmg dealt and y effects applied. One channeling attack that deals 1,2,3,4 dmg every second would do exactly the same. The qte may increase the difficulty to channel this attack to its end, but it is really just one attack even if the dmg is split and you could stop it at any interval.
Your argument that the key wouldnt be synonymous with the ability itself, is only true if there is a choice for the next attack within the chain.
As example there could be a blue and a red sweet spot within the qte. And triggering the blue spot would return into another following attack as triggering the red sweetspot.
If i wouldnt dislike the overall idea of that particular qte that much, i would agree that the implementation of many combos that include these choice system could be abel to replace the need of a huge amount of skills to some degree, it would be incredible difficult to maintain a consisten rotation however. That would probably lead to frustration instead of enjoyment about the everchanging appearance of unplaned rotations.
But since theyre still improving the qte alot, my assessment could change. The qte would need to be a little more predictable as example. Maybe by making the blue sweetspot alwas trigger at a size of 10% within 15% and 40% of the charging bar, and the red sweetspot (aswell at a size of 10%) trigger somewhere between 50% and 75%.
Usualy the strategic choice that happens while selecting the active skills, is just a tiny part of the actual game so i cant imagine how they're trying to make that the key strategic part as you say.
They dont want you to change specs regualry and they want you to participate everywhere (within your choosen role) after all, that are stated goals.
And as i calculated in previous comments, there are way way way way more strategic choices to make with big abilitys pools and 50% active abilitys.
Every logical argument so far crys for bigger skillbars to serve all aspects that make combat more engaging and serve all stated developer goals. The only thing that doesnt fit is the stated goal of a small skillbar.
The risk vs reward goal cannot be part of the ability setup btw, because risk vs reward means to decide how much of something your going to gamble and depending on that youre going to be rewarded/punished.
But you never know what abilitys your next opponent may have. That makes it always the same risk to have a situationaly good suited build or not, you cant make a low risk build. The risk can be condensed into 'thats the risk to play the game'. There doesnt need to be a risk vs reward foundation for that. The chance to loose a fight is always present while playing a multiplayer game by default.
Being as though I'm used to having abilities all over my bars because I played WoW for so long, I find myself enjoying having only the necessary on my bars.
Me personally, I want to have the ability to make an ability "action combat" by changing it from push to activate to a combination of keys to make the ability to go off.
The phrase for Ashes combat would simply be "pressing the weapon key" or "repeatedly pressing the weapon key"; not spamming and not button-smashing.
Spamming means that keys are frantically being (s)mashed as quickly as possible.
Steven has said, "You generate Focus through the use of your #1 skill, which is your weapon ability, in place of what would normally be found in a lot of MMORPGs which would be an auto-attack feature or a button-mashing feature."
So, as I've stated many times now, the whole point of the QTE is to replace spamming/button-(s)mashing.
In baseball, you swing your bat; you don't wave your bat. Waving your bat is not going to help you. Just as spamming the #1 key is not going to help you in Ashes.
You have to press the #1 key with focused deliberation in order to effectively hit the sweet spot of the QTE - just as you have to swing a bat with focused deliberation in order to effectively hit the ball in baseball.
It's not a matter of semantics. Words do have meanings.
Just as in baseball the difference between waving the bat and swinging the bat is not mere semantics.
I suppose OCD folk spam keys that are on cool-downs - but it's silly and ineffective to do so.
If you try to spam the QTE, it will fail and you will be locked in the slowest time for the basic weapon attack. No one is so stupid to keep pushing the same button 15 times a second even if it has no effect for at least 0,9 sec and doesn't affect any combat mechanics since the inputs would just be ignored by your computer. Which is entirely my point because that is precisely what happens when you try to spam the weapon key in Ashes.
Spamming the weapon key in Ashes will be as effective as wildly waving a bat at base and hoping to have a meaningful connect with the ball.
In order to be effective, you have to prepare, focus and time your key press like you would focus and time your bat swing in baseball.
You don't have to punish people to prevent them from spamming, you simply have to make spamming ineffective. People can continue to spam if they wish, but as you stated, no one is going to do that if it has no effect. Especially if it is more rewarding for them not to spam - as in gaining an extra attack and building Focus if they successfully hit the sweet spot.
Having 40+ skills means that you have everything you need at your fingertips. That reduces challenge. You increase challenge by reducing available tools. You have to plan more strategically, both in advance and during combat, with limited abilities than if you have a wide variety of abilities at your fingertips.
Is it more challenging to hang by a rope with 5 fingers or more challenging to hang by a rope with 3 fingers? That's not rocket science.
If you have 40+ skills on a hot-bar, really all you have to do is face-roll and trigger all the abilities that aren't on cool-down. You don't have to think at all.
You get to spam-spam-spam...there will always be some abilities not on cool-down.
It's when you are limited to 10 abilities on the hot-bar that you have to be more strategic about which abilities to use and when. And that is compounded more in action combat when your opponents can move in and out of range of you abilities.
You can't simply activate Sniper's Eyes every time it goes off of cooldown - you have to be strategic about timing and placement on the field because you have to stay within that AoE zone or lose the buff - and your opponent may very likely move out of range of your attacks - especially if they see you're using Sniper's Eyes.|
Having fewer tools is more challenging than having more tools.
If I have 15 tools, it's more likely that I will have the right tools for a wide range of situations and I can easily choose the tool that fits the situation than if I only have 3 tools. If I only have 3 tools, I have to figure out how to improvise for not having the appropriate tools for a specific situation. That is only logical.
If I have a Phillips-head screwdriver and a flat-head screwdriver, it's not challenging to figure out which one to use for the appropriate situation. If I only have a Phillips head and the screws are flat-head, dealing with those screws are going to be more challenging than if I had both types of screwdrivers. And dealing with those screws will probably be more challenging if I only have a total 3 tools (sans flat-head) than if I had 15 tools (sans flat-head).
That is not an example of Ashes combat.
In Ashes combat, using the 1 triggers up to 5 different abilities in a combo chain for your weapon.
The 1 key does not have a cool-down.
In order to trigger the other weapon abilities, you have to successfully hit the sweet-spot on the QTE.
The QTE changes all kinds of things about what you're able to use.
If you use 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, you're ignoring the QTE and purposefully missing an extra weapon attack. Better to try for 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 3. Unless you think you suck at the QTE and you'll still only end up with 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3 regardless.
With 11111231111123, which combo-chain will you be going for:
1a, 1a, 1a, 1a, 1a, 2, 3, 1a, 1a, 1a,1a, 1a, 2, 3 ?
1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2, 3, 1a, 1b, 1a,1b, 1a, 2, 3 ?
1a, 1b, 1c, 1a, 1b, 2, 3, 1a, 1a, 1a,1a, 1a, 2, 3 ?
1a, 1b, 1a, 1b, 1c, 2, 3, 1a, 1b, 1c,1d, 1a, 2, 3 ?
1a, 1b, 1a, 1b, 1a, 2, 3, 1a, 1b, 1c,1d, 1e, 2, 3 ?
1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2, 3, 1a, 1b, 1c,1d, 1e, 2, 3 ?
All depends on which weapon ability you're hoping to trigger, how far up the chain you wish to go and whether you successfully hit the sweet spot on the QTE.
You are too obsessed with cool-downs.
Cool-downs may be your preferred method of limiting abilities, but the Ashes designers are better game designers than you are.
The 5 weapon abilities don't always have the same outcome if you don't do mistakes.
Same as with the non-weapon abilities, you choose which weapon ability in the chain you wish to use to best fit the situation.
Not every situation in a battle calls for every weapon ability - so players will be choosing which weapon abilities they wish to trigger and which they wish to forego, based on the moment-to-moment situation.
Weapon abilities in the combo chain won't always build in strength - all depends on how your weapon is crafted.
One channeling attack would not have the same outcome as the QTE - especially since the skill/challenge for maintaining channeling is significantly different.
The weapon key is the weapon key - it is not synonymous with the weapon ability because different abilities along the combo-chain of the weapon will be triggered by the same key.
The Ashes combat system is replacing the EQ/WoW system of having a 40+ ability bar. Doesn't matter whether you like it or not.
In Ashes, with the 10 slot hot-bar, we will have access to around 23 abilities.
You could probably increase that to 28 if you're proficient at switching weapons.
The devs don't want the QTE to be predictable because that leads to spamming.
The QTE will be easier depending on the weapon you use because the sweet-spot is larger on different weapons than it is on others - so you don't have to be as precise with your timing.
Strategic choice as in, I'm not going to use Fleeting Shot to Dash away from an opponent until the situation occurs where I feel a need to dash away from my opponent. I'm not going to use Sniper's Eye simply because it's off cool-down - I'm going to first make sure I'm in a spot I'm not going to leave for the duration of the effect... I'm going to wait to use it until I feel like I can take full advantage of the ability - otherwise I may only get off one shot and still have to wait for the cool-down rather than getting off 4 shots and waiting for the cool-down. Especially true if my target is already out of my range.
I'm not going to use my Snare while the Mage already has my target encased within Ice Prison.
There are way more options when you have a large pool of abilities at your fingertips, but they aren't really strategic choices. If I have a flat-head screwdriver among my 15 tools to deal with the flat-head screws, I don't need to devise a strategy. I don't have to give much thought about which tool to use.
If I only have 3 tools and one of them is not a flat-head screwdriver, I have to devise a strategy to deal with those flat-head screws. And it's going to be more challenging to devise a strategy with only 3 tools than it will be with 15 tools.
It is better/easier to be prepared for whatever fight comes along with 40 abilities than it is with 10. Yes.
But, being limited to 23 abilities instead of 40 is sufficient and more challenging.
And, I'm going to end here because, again, the Ashes devs are better game designers than you are.
You don't have to understand the reasoning behind their methodology.