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Microtransactions

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  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Eragale said:
    Hatred said:
    " ... I would prefer not to see a CS at all, period, without exception ... "
    I'm surprised no one said this yet - any & everything put in the cash shop ... Can literally be  added to the Game-World - an In-game economy Vs. ❝Breaking-the-4th-Wall❞ Cash shop Economy

    (breaking immersion since cash shop items can't be found anywhere in-game)

    Oh gee ... I can get that sweet chest piece ... I'll just go to the cash shop and spend Real-world currency

    That's how ❝ it ❞ starts
    •  when players starts to become more concerned with the Cash Shop, 
    • Devs begin to cater cash shop more than the content, 
    • 80% - 90% of the Community that WAS here ... Are now gone
    • Those that remain, sooner-or-later,  slowly becomes the Majority - and then the Cash Shop is catered even further ( ... more so than before ... ) than the actual MMO itself ... 
    • because the Small 20% that remained predominantly wanted the cash shop to change

    Don't believe me ? ... Look at SWTOR (-.-〆)

    Again ... Any & everything put into the cash shop can be implemented in the in-game world itself (๑•̀ㅂ•́)و✧

    Unfortunately this has been my experience since RMTs began, and when they were just thinking about them, this is what I predicted along with the creeping in of the stat items.  I am hoping that Ashes will be different.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    @Ziltch
    Not sure what you're insinuating, but that's not at all what i'm saying.

    I've seen stuff like this happen before. And things like this is entirely up to the Community to decide.
    • The Cash Shop is just a  " Plan B " in case if the P2P Model Fails - if you want to get rid of the Cash Shop permanently , then that'll be decided on the Subscription(s) ... which also intertwines in how Community feels about the Overall-Content and any ( potential ) future expansions
    • And more things not worth mentioning
    • In short, If you want the Cash Shop to leave, its up to the Community. If the Community don't want Ashes of Creation to die-out due to the Cash Shop ... don't think i need to say anything else
    Don't try to " interpret " what I'm saying -  I'm not trying to be evasive nor vague, rather succinct & entirely lucid  ... and utterly honest with you.

    And I already brought-up points - you failing to recognize/ except it is up to you. But in actuality ... the proof is already there ... you just have to open your eyes & observe. 
  • Eragale said:
    Hatred said:
    " ... I would prefer not to see a CS at all, period, without exception ... "
    I'm surprised no one said this yet - any & everything put in the cash shop ... Can literally be  added to the Game-World - an In-game economy Vs. ❝Breaking-the-4th-Wall❞ Cash shop Economy

    (breaking immersion since cash shop items can't be found anywhere in-game)

    Oh gee ... I can't* get that sweet chest piece ... I'll just go to the cash shop and spend Real-world currency

    That's how ❝ it ❞ starts
    •  when players starts to become more concerned with the Cash Shop, 
    • Devs begin to cater cash shop more than the content ( they do so if the Revenue from the Cash Shop is higher than Subs )
    • 80% - 90% of the Community that WAS here ... Are now gone
    • Those that remain, sooner-or-later,  slowly becomes the Majority - and then the Cash Shop is catered even further ( ... more so than before ... ) than the actual MMO itself ... 
    • because that Small 10% - 20%  that remained ... predominantly wanted the cash shop to change

    Don't believe me ? ... Look at SWTOR (-.-〆)

    Again ... Any & everything put into the cash shop can be implemented in the in-game world itself (๑•̀ㅂ•́)و✧
    Unfortunately this is the view point of the silent majority. That is why you are not seeing more posts like this. (This can be proven by adding P2W or $30 cosmetics to the CS and watch how fast support for this game tanks)

    Why even have a CS? If there is going to be only cosmetic items available, why have a CS at all? The primary purpose of a CS is to generate post launch revenue by selling over priced pixels or game advantages...... err convenience items. I do not feel that a CS fits in with the idea of Ashes. Lets be honest, the vast majority of the Kickstarter support and presence on the forums pre-launch are from people who are are jaded and have been burned by games that claimed no P2W and then lied about it. Hell, Ashes supposedly came about because Steven himself was tired of the P2W trend in the genre.

    If the primary purpose of a CS is to generate post launch revenue and Ashes will only offer cosmetics,  how is this CS going to generate any substantial revenue without over pricing the items? If the CS is not going to generate any substantial revenue why waste the money and man power creating and maintaining it? From my view, unless the CS is going away, or game advantages are added (P2W), or loot boxes added (CS gambling), expect to be paying more than a couple dollars for a cosmetic. I fully expect to see BDO prices for cosmetics. That is the only way a cosmetic only CS is going to generate any significant revenue.

    I would prefer that IS scrap the CS. Let the community support the game and company based on the merits of their product.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017

    As long as these are crafted in game and "nothing in the CS is larger or unobtainable in game" then it won't break that P2Win promise.

    Let me stop you right there cause you are quite wrong.

    As long as you would be able to buy ANY BAG in the CS that WOULD be P2W.
    Buying it in the CS would mean that you don't have to spend time crafting it (and time is money) or that you don't have to spend in game currency to purchase it from crafter, which leaves you more in game currency to spend on other items (such as gear).

    So the very existence of any backpacks in CS would be P2W. Becasue gaining time IS P2W.

    This includes bags, EXP potions, crafting bonuses, and everything else that essentially buys you time. All that would be P2W.


    The only things that aren't P2W are pure cosmetical items like (purely aesthetic) costumes, mount or pet skins, extra character emotes, and stuff like that.

    As long as you get into area of buying time or "convenience" (which also really IS time as well - for example pet looting your loot instead of you so you don't have to), you are on the road of P2W. Something that I doesn't want to see.
  • Gothix said:

    As long as these are crafted in game and "nothing in the CS is larger or unobtainable in game" then it won't break that P2Win promise.

    Let me stop you right there cause you are quite wrong.

    As long as you would be able to buy ANY BAG in the CS that WOULD be P2W.
    Buying it in the CS would mean that you don't have to spend time crafting it (and time is money) or that you don't have to spend in game currency to purchase it from crafter, which leaves you more in game currency to spend on other items (such as gear).

    So the very existence of any backpacks in CS would be P2W. Becasue gaining time IS P2W.

    This includes bags, EXP potions, crafting bonuses, and everything else that essentially buys you time. All that would be P2W.


    The only things that aren't P2W are pure cosmetical items like (purely aesthetic) costumes, mount or pet skins, extra character emotes, and stuff like that.

    As long as you get into area of buying time or "convenience" (which also really IS time as well - for example pet looting your loot instead of you so you don't have to), you are on the road of P2W. Something that I doesn't want to see.
    I agree with this.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    See there is the quandary.

    If there's no continual production of regular new cosmetic content I (and possibly other players too ) might feel a tad disappointed.

    So from that pov It'd be worth showing support for such by buying through cs.

    However there's no way I'd view it as anything other than a cash grab if they did decide to charge the same price for an outfit as they will do for a monthly sub.

    Yet how can we ensure that any demand for cosmetics exist, unless we can show that the demand for the cosmetics are there through cs purchases?

    I've already spent a lot of time talking about the vast size of the virtual hard-core rp crowd, but I got the feeling (by Intrepid ignoring a direct email letter regarding such I sent back in June) that they just cannot afford to invest time into something intangible to them right now....think, call to extend the Kickstarter vs actual realised extra accounts \ sales generated.

    As to Over pricing the items... maybe you're thinking about it the wrong way...
    I don't think the ks backers are jaded, not that much, I know many people who are to jaded to have backed, the backers who pledged were the hopeful.

    I agree that the only reason to have a cs is for ongoing revenue...but as intrepid have subs, and they state that they're not in it for a quick buck, I'm hopeful that any cs should be pin money only.
    There Is no reason for cosmetics not to be part on ongoing game development and design, assuming that you stop designing just because you've 'finished' clothing or weapons skins, well that strikes me as very traditional mmo thinking...and ashes wants to stay fresh and relevant.

    So make the cs, rather than financially sustaining the work of the designers through costumes sales, It'd be more about getting reward for keeping on building the world the public are seeking.
    Providing players with the accoutrements they desire

    And they don't have to charge an arm and leg to do so, they are pixels, if they are retaining designers and producing continual content, why can't cosmetics be one of those aspects?
     And If some people choose to show added support for the team by making SMALL continual purchases, why not? 

    As yet, we DONT know if cosmetics through CS will be CS exclusive or in game accessible aswell.

    We don't know if intrepids plan includes continual cosmetic evolution.

    As an aside, one of the first lessons about fund raising is that people only really donate if your request appeals to their 'happiness'.
    You want to raise funds through the cs? You'll have to keep the punters happy about splashing their cash...$30 a costume doesn't speak to the majority of the public's happiness.
  • Also, given there is NO in game advantage for cosmetics, you're stretching it a bit too say that they could be seen as pay to win because of 'time saved'


  • Megs said:
    Also, given there is NO in game advantage for cosmetics, you're stretching it a bit too say that they could be seen as pay to win because of 'time saved'


    I was saying this only in case there would not be only cosmetics in shop, but in case they would implement inventory bags and similar other things.
  • So why can't crafters make costumes?  why can't breeders develop skins for mounts and pets? Other ways of obtaining cosmetics could be drop items as loot or recipes. Why do we really need a Cash Shop?  I would love for all the goodies to be obtained in game with a subscription.
  • To be honest I would be willing to go for a slightly increased subscription if that meant no cash shop.
  • It is funny how you are all going off like "OMG, Cash Shop = P2W" when there are actually no real items confirmed yet.
  • FliP said:
    It is funny how you are all going off like "OMG, Cash Shop = P2W" when there are actually no real items confirmed yet.
    Any thing with substance to contribute? You might have to actually read the thread rather than generalizing.
  • Hatred said:
    FliP said:
    It is funny how you are all going off like "OMG, Cash Shop = P2W" when there are actually no real items confirmed yet.
    Any thing with substance to contribute? You might have to actually read the thread rather than generalizing.
    I've read too much, hence the comment.

    You're overreacting.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    FliP said:
    It is funny how you are all going off like "OMG, Cash Shop = P2W" when there are actually no real items confirmed yet.
    Actually, Cosmetics (skins) have been confirmed, and "Monster Tokens" have been confirmed.

    And for the rest of you:
    (Transcript of Q&A's, taken from the #questions channel on their Discord)

       
    So. As you can see.--

    Some of the things in cash shop can be gained through gameplay,
    Confirmed.

    Cash Shop purely cosmetics,
    Confirmed.
    (I'd once again like to point out to the 2nd picture, 1st line
    And 1st pic, point F)

    Bonus pic:

  • FliP said:
    It is funny how you are all going off like "OMG, Cash Shop = P2W" when there are actually no real items confirmed yet.
    I agree it's all speculation, but we must make it known now, while the game is in development that a CS with anything other than cosmetic items would not be acceptable.  Too many times developers have started with good intentions, and then started "sneaking" in other items into the CS.  Look at PUBG "oh here's some loot boxes for such and such event, to raise money for the prizes", next thing loot boxes are confirmed as a permanent feature of the game.  Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
  • @Iscoed1815
    I like how you did not even read my comment 3 comments below that one.
  • I did, and going back to my point, just because they say it won't feature "such and such" doesn't make it fact.  And yes while it's all speculation, we need threads like this to remind them "we're watching and reading" what they are saying, and will hold them accountable should the go back on their promises.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    So, again it all boils down to
    "I don't trust them." vs "I trust them." - Which is personal opinion and can't really be discussed in itself
  • Ziltch said:
    So, again it all boils down to
    "I don't trust them." vs "I trust them." - Which is personal opinion and can't really be discussed in itself
    I would think anyone who is backing the game from Kickstarter or the website would have trust in the company. I'm not saying unconditional trust, but I'm not sure what they have done to shake the faith of so many people I just find it odd. If you do not have trust then whats the point in playing?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    nagash said:
    Ziltch said:
    So, again it all boils down to
    "I don't trust them." vs "I trust them." - Which is personal opinion and can't really be discussed in itself
    I would think anyone who is backing the game from Kickstarter or the website would have trust in the company. I'm not saying unconditional trust, but I'm not sure what they have done to shake the faith of so many people I just find it odd. If you do not have trust then whats the point in playing?
    I have no clue. I have not seen anything so far that gives me a reason to distrust them. I mean, going by how hard Steven has been on the phrase "I hate P2W" 
    "There will be no P2W", he would either have to be a ****, or the biggest troll ever if he then goes and impliments P2W systems.
    (At least those are the only two conclusions I can draw from it)
    And he seems like neither to me.

    People are hopeful I guess, even if they do distrust. 
  • nagash said:
    Ziltch said:
    So, again it all boils down to
    "I don't trust them." vs "I trust them." - Which is personal opinion and can't really be discussed in itself
    I would think anyone who is backing the game from Kickstarter or the website would have trust in the company. I'm not saying unconditional trust, but I'm not sure what they have done to shake the faith of so many people I just find it odd. If you do not have trust then whats the point in playing?
    I would say most are hopeful. However hopeful people are, they should rightfully be skeptical. Micro transactions have profoundly spread throughout the games industry and when you look at all the cash shops out there, how many companies are using them reasonably and positively without milking the crap out of the player base? I can only think of 1 or 2 out of hundreds. Those are not good odds and give reason to be rightfully skeptical.

    I believe that Steven will not add P2W elements to the CS. However I do not see IS selling cosmetic items for a reasonable price and making enough revenue from that to make the cash shop worth their time and effort. That is just basic math.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Hatred said:
    I believe that Steven will not add P2W elements to the CS. However I do not see IS selling cosmetic items for a reasonable price and making enough revenue from that to make the cash shop worth their time and effort. That is just basic math.
    How I see it:
    (Rooooooough example)
    Selling skin for 15$
    15x5000 = 75 000$
    Selling skin for 5$
    5x10000 = 50 000$

    Overly pricing them will not make them sell better.
    Because as you said, people won't want to buy them.
    Lower the price, and more will want to buy them, and more can afford them.
    Higher price does not equal higher profit :P 
    I think there will be both low priced skins (Majority)
    And some high priced skins (Minority)
    Point being, revenue doesn't equal the price alone, it also depends on how many would want to buy it for the set price. 
    I think Steven, as a MMO player and Guild leader himself, is quite aware of this. 
    (Also considering how they have a Ph.D in Economics as an employee)

    Tbh, based on the variety of types of skins they plan to sell, I don't see them cost that much. Maybe a few $ at most for character/mob skins while housing skins will cost more etc. 
  • Ziltch said:
    Hatred said:
    I believe that Steven will not add P2W elements to the CS. However I do not see IS selling cosmetic items for a reasonable price and making enough revenue from that to make the cash shop worth their time and effort. That is just basic math.
    How I see it:
    (Rooooooough example)
    Selling skin for 15$
    15x5000 = 75 000$
    Selling skin for 5$
    5x10000 = 50 000$

    Overly pricing them will not make them sell better.
    Because as you said, people won't want to buy them.
    Lower the price, and more will want to buy them, and more can afford them.
    Higher price does not equal higher profit :P 
    I think there will be both low priced skins (Majority)
    And some high priced skins (Minority)
    Point being, revenue doesn't equal the price alone, it also depends on how many would want to buy it for the set price. 
    I think Steven, as a MMO player and Guild leader himself, is quite aware of this. 
    (Also considering how they have a Ph.D in Economics as an employee)

    Tbh, based on the variety of types of skins they plan to sell, I don't see them cost that much. Maybe a few $ at most for character/mob skins while housing skins will cost more etc. 
    you underestimate the power of collectors 
  • No, I know exactly how collectors are xD
    (I am one xD)
  • I would (personally) sell the most cosmetics in CS for lower affordable price, so everyone can afford it.

    However I would add few expensive cosmetic items, for those people that like to show how they "cashed out". Some people like to show the luxury, so why not, it's good for the game development income.

    As long as most CS stuff is lower priced so all players can afford it.
  • Gothix said:
    I would (personally) sell the most cosmetics in CS for lower affordable price, so everyone can afford it.

    However I would add few expensive cosmetic items, for those people that like to show how they "cashed out". Some people like to show the luxury, so why not, it's good for the game development income.

    As long as most CS stuff is lower priced so all players can afford it.
    Same as I would do. Nothing to lose on it, Its very likely that they can cover the artist's time (and more) on the purchases alone even with a low price so.
  • Ziltch said:
    No, I know exactly how collectors are xD
    (I am one xD)
    Knew it. Had a hunch 
  • Eragale said:
    Ziltch said:
    No, I know exactly how collectors are xD
    (I am one xD)
    Knew it. Had a hunch 
    How did you know? :open_mouth:
  • nagash said:
    I would think anyone who is backing the game from Kickstarter or the website would have trust in the company. I'm not saying unconditional trust, but I'm not sure what they have done to shake the faith of so many people I just find it odd. If you do not have trust then whats the point in playing?
    I don't have trust. I have some hope.
    I backed because I want the devs working on the development so that even if the game becomes vaporware, the devs still gain experience and know-how from working to implement the designs I support and hope to one day play... even it's some future, non-Ashes game.
  • Thanks @Ziltch for adding those quotes, got me feeling good about things!
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