I would rather expect the worst and be proven wrong, then be assured the best and receive disappointment.
the ultimate thief is death. therefore not all thieves are alive, but they will all eventually die.
I've been promised the same game on many occasions, so please forgive a skeptical old fool for cynically scrutinizing and perhaps being overly critical, I am not doing it out of spite.
If i didn't have some overall level of confident optimism regarding Intrepid/Ashes I wouldn't have backed the game.
I want it to succeed too.
I know, but my point was: If all your argments really comes down to is trust issues, it's not really something that is discussable, since it becomes a Personal View vs Personal View
Actually I am beyond trust, faith or hope as arguments*
I am making criticisms based on observational facts using industry trends and outcomes and the current information provided in conjunction with the actions of Intrepid Studios.
I respect Intrepid and Steven's vision, but only fools latch on to the heels of sandals with blind faith.
So far your only rebuttal to a debate is the "No p2w/cosmetic only" Steven Statement and anything questioning this premise is a trust issue that makes any alternative concerns irrelevant.
I have elaborated extensively why there are potential flaws in having cash shop in a subscription payment system.
I have referenced the actions/outcomes of Intrepid during the crowd funding period as a determining factor towards how the cash shop will be likely be handled and managed thus far....I am not encouraged.
That having cash only content can be interpreted as unfair to subscribers and its residual negative impact.
that cosmetic only* can still potentially provide a competitive edge, ergo a pseudo p2w aspect.
So until there is more actual evidence other than PR it's hypothetical reasoning, not an antitrust issue.
I have provided solutions to most concerns raised.
So far your only rebuttal to a debate is the "No p2w/cosmetic only" Steven Statement and anything questioning this premise is a trust issue that makes any alternative concerns irrelevant.
Because I see no reason to distrust them, and that is their official statements. So why would I need to have any other points if I trust them?
Whocandosaid: That having cash only content can be interpreted as unfair to subscribers and its residual negative impact.
Neither do I see any reason as how it is unfair to subscribers and leaves a negative impact if they use their concept artists and designers to create some extra content in spare time that they have. My job is in system development and my experience so far is that there will be some periods where some people have extra time to spare, so why not use it?
Whocando said: that cosmetic only* can still potentially provide a competitive edge, ergo a pseudo p2w aspect.
Pleaaaaaaaaaase elaborate on this, I'd love to know how cosmetics can create a pay2win aspect, seriously, I'd love to hear this answer! xD
Whocando said: So until there is more actual evidence other than PR it's hypothetical reasoning, not an antitrust issue.
I have provided solutions to most concerns raised.
Exactly, when there is lack of evidence and you judge based on statements alone, it comes down to 'trust'. So yes, it is an 'anti-trust' issue xD
This had nothing to do with Trust - please stop resorting to that response.
What a Player looks like should reflect on the adventures that Player have been through - not how much money they spent
Everything in a Cash Shop can be put into in-game vendor(s) - literally content-material being separated via money
His argument of it possibly becoming P2W is a trust issue Your argument about disliking not being able to get all content without paying real money for it is another story :P
@ziltch please refer to all my previous posts in this thread for your elaboration or supposed lack thereof...You seem to be lack attention to detail.
But for your sake I will reiterate how cosmetics can facilitate potentially a p2w state.
cosmetics change appearance, visuals effects, animations and audio...by doing so you can in effect alter competitive game play interactions most often subtle, but not always for the majority to notice or complain. Lets say a particular skin* blends into the environment better, makes less noise, or masks important combat feedback mechanics. these can be abused to create an unfair advantage and if they are cash shop specific...then you have cosmetic only p2w
Please don't request more elaboration....as it's more of a failure on your part i am sorry to say.
Your occupation is irrelevant.
I would however prefer employees @intrepid do other non work related activities in their spare* time to invigorate themselves outside of work commitments, with the benefits of better core game values than pander cash shop stocking filler pap.
There is no reason why your "spare time cosmetics" couldn't be better utilized in the core game giving a far more enriched experience for all participants than a few $ on the side. refer to cash shop devalues subscription post.
I get the impression however that you are more inclined to trust* everything while putting you fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalalala.
... That is why I'm so torn on this subject ... Something like GW2 has a nice middle-ground where you can convert your currency into cash shop funds. Idk... MTs make me hurt all over.
@Hatred it really depends on what qualifies as p2w and where that line is drawn. We can all agree gaining any stats from a cash shop is outright p2w. But convenience? I doubt that. I wouldn't say that having to take less trips to the vendor as p2w. I wouldn't consider access to more colors as p2w either.
I would like to say that it is bad practice to remove stuff just to put it in the shop. Like it would be despicable to take the standard weight carry from 80lbs and nerf it to 50 just so you can add 3 10lb strength packs to the shop. It should be a bonus that helps out but not in any game changing way.
@Hatred it really depends on what qualifies as p2w and where that line is drawn. We can all agree gaining any stats from a cash shop is outright p2w. But convenience? I doubt that. I wouldn't say that having to take less trips to the vendor as p2w. I wouldn't consider access to more colors as p2w either.
I would like to say that it is bad practice to remove stuff just to put it in the shop. Like it would be despicable to take the standard weight carry from 80lbs and nerf it to 50 just so you can add 3 10lb strength packs to the shop. It should be a bonus that helps out but not in any game changing way.
I was really trying to direct the conversation away from P2W talk but ehhh it is what it is I guess. So to respond I would suppose that the first thing we need to do, is define what would be considered P2W in a cash shop.
As you said anything that affects stats would be an obvious P2W. But its not limited there, most would include anything that gives a player an advantage no matter how slight it might be outside of normal game play performed outside of the cash shop such as, items that save players time / effort on tasks or activities regardless of how mundane that they might be. Items that give players an edge via color schemes / outfits such as allowing players to blend into the surroundings or to hide the appearance of their class or have the appearance of being another class type that they are not.
Just to provide a very specific detailed example that was mentioned earlier in the thread in regards to convenience:
How about bags? Being able to buy bags would be a convenience right? Sure you could craft them yourself or buy them from another player..... but if you could just outright buy them from the cash shop how would that not be a leg up on players who make their own? Out right buying bags means not having to waste ingame currency thus freeing up said currency for other needs or goals and thus diminishing the economy and a segment of crafting. How about the time / effort saved not having to gather materials or to level the crafting skill to be able to make your own bags? Is that not an advantage?
See the direction my response is going? Really when you get down to it and really boil micro transactions down to the most basic level, it could be summed up as this..... anything offered via micro transactions will affect players and the game via resources / time / appearance / pay walled content, all of which represent advantages. Even if you try to make the case that one thing or another only has the smallest measurement of advantage, it is still an advantage on what should be a level playing field.
Keeping with the P2W response here, of course this is all assuming that we luck out and end up with the greatest 1 in a million of cash shops unlike any cash shop that has been or is currently in the gaming industry..... oh wait... it has already been hinted that there will be at least some cosmetics in the cash shop that will only be obtainable with real money. Humph, there went that 1 in a million, looks like we are gonna have to settle for the next best thing or attempt to influence this micro transaction decision.
Now I would really like to move on from P2W talk and hit the whole why have micro transactions at all talk.
... That is why I'm so torn on this subject ... Something like GW2 has a nice middle-ground where you can convert your currency into cash shop funds. Idk... MTs make me hurt all over.
in case you missed it.
I missed it, but it doesn't answer my question.
Ok, in game currently to cash shop currency, that's great. What would you suggest to be in the cash shop instead of cosmetics that you would like to get for donating?
@LoyhetaI I play* Gw2 aka fashion wars myself, Firstly Gw2 is a non subscription game. It is heavily reliant on cash shop itemization for the majority of its consistent upkeep costs. this necessity results in periods of content drought and lackluster balance* patches, bug fixes intermittently.
Its has boosters... Insta level cap...
Convenience/quality of life itemization which is so prohibitive its almost a forced purchase... Novelty toys/items...some of these were exploited for additional utility skills bypassing content. These do offer an advantage so technically they are a potential p2w issue
Lootboxes gambling garbage... Outfits/non combat cosmetics/skins..potential p2w advantage Additional Character slots.... added inventory space/bank alts Character makeover kits... Renaming contracts.... These are less inclined to violate p2w thresholds however there are risks.
direct currency exchange $->crystals<->game gold This is basically buying gold and removing power from 3rd party gold sellers...it works mostly and it does allow the purchase of crystals* with in game currency, however it does effect the in game economy so...p2w
Now remember it is a restricted f2p MMO with buy box expansions. but no subscription.
Now Ashes is so far a subscription only game access with an additional cash shop* 'no p2w, cosmetic only' policy.
But as you can see by Gw2 good but not perfect system it has multiple p2w violations, i however tolerate Gw2 cash shop as i acknowledge it's non subscription model.
It kind of narrows the options down, when you really think about it or are confronted by it.
cosmetics change appearance, visuals effects, animations and audio...by doing so you can in effect alter competitive game play interactions most often subtle, but not always for the majority to notice or complain. Lets say a particular skin* blends into the environment better, makes less noise, or masks important combat feedback mechanics. these can be abused to create an unfair advantage and if they are cash shop specific...then you have cosmetic only p2w
Yeah I can understand your point on the visual/audio FX for skills. But I think you forget that there are already mechanics in game for altering that. Skill augments, skins. So all that means, is that you'd need to learn a few more variations, if you play on the "I need to remember how every skill sound and looks to reflex counter them" And for now, I have heard nothing about those kind of skill skins being in the shop itself too, only KS Backing Goal had an additional FX thing like that for backers.
So I still don't see the problem. The game already has mechanics that alter the thing you're afraid of, even without the Cash Shop and KS reward.
I also don't think that they'd create FX skins that does that
I get the impression however that you are more inclined to trust* everything while putting you fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalalala
Ofcourse you do, I disagree with you so it's only logical that you attack my person to make my arguments hold less value in your head. Just a common mental reaction. I merely go by these two simple lines: I trust them, as they have given me no reason to distrust them. Because I trust them, I take their statements about the game as temporary facts, until they state otherwise.
The KStarter outcomes were part of the reason for concern regarding the direction of the cash shop which i previously stated. The Summer campaign exclusivity* fumble, is a perfect example of why I do not have complete trust* in them...
I'ts not even about the p2w aspects or potential risks, or how having visual/audio FX in the core game justifies the segregation of similar content for potential financial gain. that's just making excuses and circumvent the risks that having any* micro transaction separate to the core payment model. Given the OP
But i am glad you finally understood the premise of cosmetic p2w risks.
You called me out to elaborate on multiple occasions, I responded rationally and now you are defending yourself from apparent 'personal attack'
The KStarter outcomes were part of the reason for concern regarding the direction of the cash shop which i previously stated. The Summer campaign exclusivity* fumble, is a perfect example of why I do not have complete trust* in them...
You called me out to elaborate on multiple occasions, I responded rationally and now you are defending yourself from apparent 'personal attack'
That's defensive denial... get real.
So explaining how your 'impression' (your word) is different from reality is defensive? Hmm, guess you're not really interested in other people's point of view if that is the case
your point of view was acknowledged without any request of elaboration on your part. hence my lack of interest.
Conclusion being that 99.9% of all games that adopt an alternative micro-transactions system end up incurring a detrimental outcome and the inevitable geed that it induces becomes a cancerous curse on what ever it touches. You are welcome to give an example that proves otherwise...good luck.
My word has no more significance or emphasis than you or any one else including Steven @ Intrepid. Good intentions are a fickle thing and actions often speak louder than words do they not?
So yes, I believe my concerns are justified based on experience. impressions* or otherwise
@Hatred whilst you make a decent point regarding the hope to start with a level field, we will never have that, you are not taking into account the fact that people are all different, and through circumstances not of their own construction.
Some will have a greater advantage than others, it could be time limitations: casual players are normally disadvantaged against hardcore. Mine is physical.
You want to create a level playing field just with myself wear heavy woollen gloves under rubber gloves and randomly shock your hand every few minutes... THATS why creating a level field can't ever happen, putting aside that some people are just more naturally skilled than others.
To my mind, a convenience shop actually reduces the gap between the majorities, as the majority of time rich players have lower available funds and the majority of cash rich players have to spend their time elsewhere, sure there are exceptions.
And taking this one step further, @Whocando , if you seriously think that cosmetics fashion makes that much difference between two identically skilled players, one who had a certain outfit and one who doesn't, I think you're daft, the camouflage advantages would be minimal once combat begins and different environment \ seasons \ weather conditions would seriously limit any costumes usefulness. Its just picking hairs.
All of this talk has got me thinking, whilst for convenience I need costumes for my random briefly lives rp toons, and whilst I want to support the game further, and would just ask that everything in a cash shop is also in game, ultimately you guys have me convinced that it's really not essential ( I am still unconvinced about potentially harmful or detracting from the value of your sub, its not chopping an arm off, its just an itch to scratch)
..but it's also obvious however that this is the model that Intrepid is currently aiming for
So just for one second, is there anything that Intrepid could EVER sell through a cash shop that you think wouldn't significantly affect the quality of the game as a whole... ?
For instance I hope that the player toon angels/ demons /elementals add to the immersiveness and feel of the world as a whole...Id see no reason not to do similarly limited, RIDICULOUSLY expensive cash shop special cosmetics. After all, if its only something one person has, what's the harm? If one person spends 5k on a slightly ridiculous hat, whats the problem
@Hatred whilst you make a decent point regarding the hope to start with a level field, we will never have that,
Why not? Why would the game itself not be a level playing field? Is that not the definition of a game?
game - noun a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
A level playing field is all participants playing by the same rules with those who are seen as successful being decided by their skill, strength or luck.
you are not taking into account the fact that people are all different, and through circumstances not of their own construction.
Some will have a greater advantage than others, it could be time limitations: casual players are normally disadvantaged against hardcore. Mine is physical.
Don't take me the wrong way here I am not being insensitive. It is 100% impossible to create an ingame level playing field that incorporates real life advantages / disadvantages. If it were possible then it would be in my personal best interest to promote a P2W system as I have limited time and excess income (a common argument for a pro micro transaction stance).
All of this talk has got me thinking, whilst for convenience I need costumes for my random briefly lives rp toons, and whilst I want to support the game further, and would just ask that everything in a cash shop is also in game, ultimately you guys have me convinced that it's really not essential ( I am still unconvinced about potentially harmful or detracting from the value of your sub, its not chopping an arm off, its just an itch to scratch)
Not sure I follow everything here. Someone wants to further support the devs... continue buying their products i.e. real life apparel / future expansions / games / continue your subscription / pay for a second account. For that matter put a check in the mail, or send edible arrangements to their office. Arguably the best support you could give the devs is to promote their game to other people.
I would also ask that if we are absolutely stuck with a cash shop that all the items be available in the game rather than a pay wall.
So just for one second, is there anything that Intrepid could EVER sell through a cash shop that wouldn't significantly affect the quality of the game as a whole... ?
Would prefer no cash shop at all. That being said if there was a cash shop.... fire works maybe?
For instance I hope that the player toon angels/ demons /elementals add to the immersiveness and feel of the world as a whole...Id see no reason not to do similarly limited, RIDICULOUSLY expensive cash shop special cosmetics. After all, if its only something one person has, what's the harm?
This is already going on. I would refer you to the LIMITED – PAX Exclusive Digital Cosmetics. $40 for only 4 items... at $10 per item that is a RIDICULOUSLY poor deal for some pixels. (A sign of things to come?)
My stance has been and will always be that micro transactions are not in any consumer's best interest.
@Megs I already expressed the only compromise being that all shop* items are obtainable via game currency and real world currency. Rich* people get their items, poor* subscribers get a realistic grind goal/progression element.
at a competitive level any advantage is still an advantage, and any elitist* player will do whatever it takes to have a competitive edge even if it's just a hair different. I expressed that the Majority* of player base probably wont care. but I was asked to explain how cosmetics* can effect competitive outcomes. If its facilitated by real world $ input then it becomes a p2w element...that is just fact.
I have nostalgia for MMOs not microtransacitions.
The harm is will there be pop ups, New* skin advertising. item scarcity* sales. on my login page, in my email, in my game mail or talked about in game... this can break immersion for some people... So you end up with a split opinion and community, Some will stop playing some might start which may swing the payment model in a particular way.
That there will be to many 5k hats and asset flips rather than overdue balance patches and bug fixes....
The primary example of how a cash shop detracts from the sub is that cosmetic* assets that are sold specifically in the cash shop could have been used to better effect in the game world to facilitate quests, lore, environment, progression, motivation, player to player interactions, which gets sacrificed towards making a financial gain. because the industry knows the rich* people will circumvent the game time* investment or ego impulse buy anything new* to differentiate themselves from the poor* players....
It all started with "what's the harm with micro transactions" and devolved into a games industry as a whole blatantly holding back content to maximize profit at the expense of gaming*
You need* your RP cosmetics but now have them behind a paywall. Not all players who RP are going to agree with you that it's ok and harmless.
Intrepid is slack rope walking its balance between subscription and cash shop, they feel they can do it.
I understand your apprehension. The state and direction of other Mmorpg's is why I started Ashes. You don't have to agree with the pricing structure of the crowdsourcing add ons, but rest assured Ashes will never include monetization practices that require players to pay to win or stay competitive. And there will be an abundance of in game cosmetics that are achievable and rare, some on par with marketplace cosmetics
I understand your apprehension. The state and direction of other Mmorpg's is why I started Ashes. You don't have to agree with the pricing structure of the crowdsourcing add ons, but rest assured Ashes will never include monetization practices that require players to pay to win or stay competitive. And there will be an abundance of in game cosmetics that are achievable and rare, some on par with marketplace cosmetics
Appreciate digging up the quote. This line right here shines the light on what we can expect from the cash shop.
"And there will be an abundance of in game cosmetics that are achievable and rare, some on par with marketplace cosmetics"
Out of the "abundance" (meaning many) of cosmetics outside of the cash shop, only "some" (meaning few) of those many will be on "par" (meaning equal) would imply that the majority of cash shop cosmetics would be either above "par" or below "par". Given the context and the fact that cash shops are by definition designed to generate revenue which would imply the sale of above "par" cosmetics to generate said revenue means...
...yeah expect to see some (meaning few) of the flashy outfits in the world and the rest / best flashy outfits in the cash shop.
P2W to be determined. Pay to look like a bad ass, highly probable.
Glad to help @Megs. Don't let being a convert stop the debate, you had some pretty good points and concerns. The more debate going on, the more this might get addressed by Intrepid.
I dislike cash shops. I have never stayed with FTP cash shop focused games longer than 9 months.
Too often once a game implements them; it becomes ABOUT them and regular content ( something that is to be expressed through some medium, as speech,writing, or any of various arts:) is sacrificed.
Rather than the ability to get a cool new sword or armor through in game effort to show my achievements; others pay $4.99 for something that looks, "better." My satisfaction is lowered or at least detracted from.
Too often entire game art departments have to maintain constant churn to keep the cash shops fresh; which means in game aesthetics; that look or feel that makes a game unique is sacrificed upon the altar of popular culture. All of a sudden you are getting santa outfits, hoodies, nurse uniforms and all sorts of anime dress up options that have nothing to deal with the game world.
I dislike the vehicles normally used to implement cash shops; the irritating pop ups; constant ads; the space taking loot chests that require keys; the in game cash shop vendors that take up a corner of the game world.
A huge fan of in game immersion; I would rather buy cool armor crafted through rare recipes that players find in the explorations than anything a cash shop could offer.
Give me a wardrobe; but give the in game tailors/armorers/blacksmiths cosmetic recipes as drops particular to their trade skills on top of regular drops.
Give me a flat subscription fee any day. You keep the game fresh; you keep my money. If you are relying on me to by a leather kilt to keep your game alive; you have already lost the elements that brought me to the game in the first place.
Good post @Pogybait . I agree with everything said in it. Do you agree with applying micro transactions in Ashes as the game has been presented up to this point? Is there a threshold or line in the sand regarding a cash shop in Ashes that would cause you to turn away from the game?
It is only logical and to be expected that cash shop costumes will look better (although the definition of "looks better than" is subject for every individual to decide for himself) than free costumes obtainable in-game.
What would be the point of paid costumes if the free ones look better?
The cash shop will be in place to generate additional funds alongside the subscription cost, I don't see why everyone is so worked up about it. We are all benefiting from it.
And I don't want to hear about your trust issues anymore.
Comments
If all your argments really comes down to is trust issues, it's not really something that is discussable, since it becomes a Personal View vs Personal View
I am making criticisms based on observational facts using industry trends and outcomes and the current information provided in conjunction with the actions of Intrepid Studios.
I respect Intrepid and Steven's vision, but only fools latch on to the heels of sandals with blind faith.
So far your only rebuttal to a debate is the "No p2w/cosmetic only" Steven Statement and anything questioning this premise is a trust issue that makes any alternative concerns irrelevant.
I have elaborated extensively why there are potential flaws in having cash shop in a subscription payment system.
I have referenced the actions/outcomes of Intrepid during the crowd funding period as a determining factor towards how the cash shop will be likely be handled and managed thus far....I am not encouraged.
That having cash only content can be interpreted as unfair to subscribers and its residual negative impact.
that cosmetic only* can still potentially provide a competitive edge, ergo a pseudo p2w aspect.
So until there is more actual evidence other than PR it's hypothetical reasoning, not an antitrust issue.
I have provided solutions to most concerns raised.
What a Player looks like should reflect on the adventures that Player have been through - not how much money they spent
Everything in a Cash Shop can be put into in-game vendor(s) - literally content-material being separated via money
Your argument about disliking not being able to get all content without paying real money for it is another story :P
But for your sake I will reiterate how cosmetics can facilitate potentially a p2w state.
cosmetics change appearance, visuals effects, animations and audio...by doing so you can in effect alter competitive game play interactions most often subtle, but not always for the majority to notice or complain. Lets say a particular skin* blends into the environment better, makes less noise, or masks important combat feedback mechanics. these can be abused to create an unfair advantage and if they are cash shop specific...then you have cosmetic only p2w
Please don't request more elaboration....as it's more of a failure on your part i am sorry to say.
Your occupation is irrelevant.
I would however prefer employees @intrepid do other non work related activities in their spare* time to invigorate themselves outside of work commitments, with the benefits of better core game values than pander cash shop stocking filler pap.
There is no reason why your "spare time cosmetics" couldn't be better utilized in the core game giving a far more enriched experience for all participants than a few $ on the side. refer to cash shop devalues subscription post.
I get the impression however that you are more inclined to trust* everything while putting you fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalalala.
in case you missed it.
I would like to say that it is bad practice to remove stuff just to put it in the shop. Like it would be despicable to take the standard weight carry from 80lbs and nerf it to 50 just so you can add 3 10lb strength packs to the shop. It should be a bonus that helps out but not in any game changing way.
As you said anything that affects stats would be an obvious P2W. But its not limited there, most would include anything that gives a player an advantage no matter how slight it might be outside of normal game play performed outside of the cash shop such as, items that save players time / effort on tasks or activities regardless of how mundane that they might be. Items that give players an edge via color schemes / outfits such as allowing players to blend into the surroundings or to hide the appearance of their class or have the appearance of being another class type that they are not.
Just to provide a very specific detailed example that was mentioned earlier in the thread in regards to convenience:
How about bags? Being able to buy bags would be a convenience right? Sure you could craft them yourself or buy them from another player..... but if you could just outright buy them from the cash shop how would that not be a leg up on players who make their own? Out right buying bags means not having to waste ingame currency thus freeing up said currency for other needs or goals and thus diminishing the economy and a segment of crafting. How about the time / effort saved not having to gather materials or to level the crafting skill to be able to make your own bags? Is that not an advantage?
See the direction my response is going? Really when you get down to it and really boil micro transactions down to the most basic level, it could be summed up as this..... anything offered via micro transactions will affect players and the game via resources / time / appearance / pay walled content, all of which represent advantages. Even if you try to make the case that one thing or another only has the smallest measurement of advantage, it is still an advantage on what should be a level playing field.
Keeping with the P2W response here, of course this is all assuming that we luck out and end up with the greatest 1 in a million of cash shops unlike any cash shop that has been or is currently in the gaming industry..... oh wait... it has already been hinted that there will be at least some cosmetics in the cash shop that will only be obtainable with real money. Humph, there went that 1 in a million, looks like we are gonna have to settle for the next best thing or attempt to influence this micro transaction decision.
Now I would really like to move on from P2W talk and hit the whole why have micro transactions at all talk.
Ok, in game currently to cash shop currency, that's great.
What would you suggest to be in the cash shop instead of cosmetics that you would like to get for donating?
It is heavily reliant on cash shop itemization for the majority of its consistent upkeep costs. this necessity results in periods of content drought and lackluster balance* patches, bug fixes intermittently.
Its has boosters...
Insta level cap...
Convenience/quality of life itemization which is so prohibitive its almost a forced purchase...
Novelty toys/items...some of these were exploited for additional utility skills bypassing content.
These do offer an advantage so technically they are a potential p2w issue
Lootboxes gambling garbage...
Outfits/non combat cosmetics/skins..potential p2w advantage
Additional Character slots.... added inventory space/bank alts
Character makeover kits...
Renaming contracts....
These are less inclined to violate p2w thresholds however there are risks.
direct currency exchange $->crystals<->game gold
This is basically buying gold and removing power from 3rd party gold sellers...it works mostly and it does allow the purchase of crystals* with in game currency, however it does effect the in game economy so...p2w
Now remember it is a restricted f2p MMO with buy box expansions. but no subscription.
Now Ashes is so far a subscription only game access with an additional cash shop* 'no p2w, cosmetic only' policy.
But as you can see by Gw2 good but not perfect system it has multiple p2w violations, i however tolerate Gw2 cash shop as i acknowledge it's non subscription model.
It kind of narrows the options down, when you really think about it or are confronted by it.
But I think you forget that there are already mechanics in game for altering that.
Skill augments, skins.
So all that means, is that you'd need to learn a few more variations, if you play on the
"I need to remember how every skill sound and looks to reflex counter them"
And for now, I have heard nothing about those kind of skill skins being in the shop itself too, only KS Backing Goal had an additional FX thing like that for backers.
So I still don't see the problem. The game already has mechanics that alter the thing you're afraid of, even without the Cash Shop and KS reward.
I also don't think that they'd create FX skins that does that
Ofcourse you do, I disagree with you so it's only logical that you attack my person to make my arguments hold less value in your head. Just a common mental reaction.
I merely go by these two simple lines:
I trust them, as they have given me no reason to distrust them.
Because I trust them, I take their statements about the game as temporary facts, until they state otherwise.
The KStarter outcomes were part of the reason for concern regarding the direction of the cash shop which i previously stated. The Summer campaign exclusivity* fumble, is a perfect example of why I do not have complete trust* in them...
I'ts not even about the p2w aspects or potential risks, or how having visual/audio FX in the core game justifies the segregation of similar content for potential financial gain.
that's just making excuses and circumvent the risks that having any* micro transaction separate to the core payment model. Given the OP
But i am glad you finally understood the premise of cosmetic p2w risks.
You called me out to elaborate on multiple occasions, I responded rationally and now you are defending yourself from apparent 'personal attack'
That's defensive denial...
get real.
your point of view was acknowledged without any request of elaboration on your part. hence my lack of interest.
Conclusion being that 99.9% of all games that adopt an alternative micro-transactions system end up incurring a detrimental outcome and the inevitable geed that it induces becomes a cancerous curse on what ever it touches. You are welcome to give an example that proves otherwise...good luck.
My word has no more significance or emphasis than you or any one else including Steven @ Intrepid. Good intentions are a fickle thing and actions often speak louder than words do they not?
So yes, I believe my concerns are justified based on experience. impressions* or otherwise
Some will have a greater advantage than others, it could be time limitations: casual players are normally disadvantaged against hardcore. Mine is physical.
You want to create a level playing field just with myself wear heavy woollen gloves under rubber gloves and randomly shock your hand every few minutes... THATS why creating a level field can't ever happen, putting aside that some people are just more naturally skilled than others.
To my mind, a convenience shop actually reduces the gap between the majorities, as the majority of time rich players have lower available funds and the majority of cash rich players have to spend their time elsewhere, sure there are exceptions.
And taking this one step further, @Whocando , if you seriously think that cosmetics fashion makes that much difference between two identically skilled players, one who had a certain outfit and one who doesn't, I think you're daft, the camouflage advantages would be minimal once combat begins and different environment \ seasons \ weather conditions would seriously limit any costumes usefulness.
Its just picking hairs.
All of this talk has got me thinking, whilst for convenience I need costumes for my random briefly lives rp toons, and whilst I want to support the game further, and would just ask that everything in a cash shop is also in game, ultimately you guys have me convinced that it's really not essential ( I am still unconvinced about potentially harmful or detracting from the value of your sub, its not chopping an arm off, its just an itch to scratch)
..but it's also obvious however that this is the model that Intrepid is currently aiming for
So just for one second, is there anything that Intrepid could EVER sell through a cash shop that you think wouldn't significantly affect the quality of the game as a whole... ?
For instance I hope that the player toon angels/ demons /elementals add to the immersiveness and feel of the world as a whole...Id see no reason not to do similarly limited, RIDICULOUSLY expensive cash shop special cosmetics. After all, if its only something one person has, what's the harm?
If one person spends 5k on a slightly ridiculous hat, whats the problem
game - noun
a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
A level playing field is all participants playing by the same rules with those who are seen as successful being decided by their skill, strength or luck.Don't take me the wrong way here I am not being insensitive. It is 100% impossible to create an ingame level playing field that incorporates real life advantages / disadvantages. If it were possible then it would be in my personal best interest to promote a P2W system as I have limited time and excess income (a common argument for a pro micro transaction stance).
Not sure I follow everything here. Someone wants to further support the devs... continue buying their products i.e. real life apparel / future expansions / games / continue your subscription / pay for a second account. For that matter put a check in the mail, or send edible arrangements to their office. Arguably the best support you could give the devs is to promote their game to other people.
I would also ask that if we are absolutely stuck with a cash shop that all the items be available in the game rather than a pay wall.
Would prefer no cash shop at all. That being said if there was a cash shop.... fire works maybe?
This is already going on. I would refer you to the LIMITED – PAX Exclusive Digital Cosmetics. $40 for only 4 items... at $10 per item that is a RIDICULOUSLY poor deal for some pixels. (A sign of things to come?)
My stance has been and will always be that micro transactions are not in any consumer's best interest.
at a competitive level any advantage is still an advantage, and any elitist* player will do whatever it takes to have a competitive edge even if it's just a hair different.
I expressed that the Majority* of player base probably wont care. but I was asked to explain how cosmetics* can effect competitive outcomes. If its facilitated by real world $ input then it becomes a p2w element...that is just fact.
I have nostalgia for MMOs not microtransacitions.
The harm is will there be pop ups, New* skin advertising. item scarcity* sales. on my login page, in my email, in my game mail or talked about in game... this can break immersion for some people...
So you end up with a split opinion and community, Some will stop playing some might start which may swing the payment model in a particular way.
That there will be to many 5k hats and asset flips rather than overdue balance patches and bug fixes....
The primary example of how a cash shop detracts from the sub is that cosmetic* assets that are sold specifically in the cash shop could have been used to better effect in the game world to facilitate quests, lore, environment, progression, motivation, player to player interactions, which gets sacrificed towards making a financial gain. because the industry knows the rich* people will circumvent the game time* investment or ego impulse buy anything new* to differentiate themselves from the poor* players....
It all started with "what's the harm with micro transactions" and devolved into a games industry as a whole blatantly holding back content to maximize profit at the expense of gaming*
You need* your RP cosmetics but now have them behind a paywall. Not all players who RP are going to agree with you that it's ok and harmless.
Intrepid is slack rope walking its balance between subscription and cash shop, they feel they can do it.
I wouldn't.
Steven-07/17/2017
"And there will be an abundance of in game cosmetics that are achievable and rare, some on par with marketplace cosmetics"
Out of the "abundance" (meaning many) of cosmetics outside of the cash shop, only "some" (meaning few) of those many will be on "par" (meaning equal) would imply that the majority of cash shop cosmetics would be either above "par" or below "par". Given the context and the fact that cash shops are by definition designed to generate revenue which would imply the sale of above "par" cosmetics to generate said revenue means...
...yeah expect to see some (meaning few) of the flashy outfits in the world and the rest / best flashy outfits in the cash shop.
P2W to be determined.
Pay to look like a bad ass, highly probable.
**sigh**
Looking at that quote I will keep this handy come launch.
No cash shop does definitely sound the better option now.
Too often once a game implements them; it becomes ABOUT them and regular content ( something that is to be expressed through some medium,
as speech,writing, or any of various arts:) is sacrificed.
Rather than the ability to get a cool new sword or armor through in game effort to show my achievements; others pay $4.99 for something that looks, "better." My satisfaction is lowered or at least detracted from.
Too often entire game art departments have to maintain constant churn to keep the cash shops fresh; which means in game aesthetics; that look or feel that makes a game unique is sacrificed upon the altar of popular culture. All of a sudden you are getting santa outfits, hoodies, nurse uniforms and all sorts of anime dress up options that have nothing to deal with the game world.
I dislike the vehicles normally used to implement cash shops; the irritating pop ups; constant ads; the space taking loot chests that require keys; the in game cash shop vendors that take up a corner of the game world.
A huge fan of in game immersion; I would rather buy cool armor crafted through rare recipes that players find in the explorations than anything a cash shop could offer.
Give me a wardrobe; but give the in game tailors/armorers/blacksmiths cosmetic recipes as drops particular to their trade skills on top of regular drops.
Give me a flat subscription fee any day. You keep the game fresh; you keep my money. If you are relying on me to by a leather kilt to keep your game alive; you have already lost the elements that brought me to the game in the first place.
But Ashes is still better than any MMO right now
What would be the point of paid costumes if the free ones look better?
The cash shop will be in place to generate additional funds alongside the subscription cost, I don't see why everyone is so worked up about it. We are all benefiting from it.
And I don't want to hear about your trust issues anymore.