Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
If you want this MMO to Thrive, then be more considerate & mindful as to how Cash Shop starts & utterly ruins MMOs.
" What you think, and what you know are 2 completely differently things "
- Do you " know " its trust issues ? Or are you assuming it's Trust issues ?
( Rhetorical Question ) Of course you don't, because no one else knows me ... more than me.But they are not free* are they....they are inclusive to the value of your subscription fee.
So if they are subjectively* better in appearance or otherwise and only 'Some" of our subscription apparel is on "par" then at what point does the amount of shop content begin to feel like a cash grab rather than "additional funds"
Not everyone* benefits...
Ok then, let me elaborate. "Free" costumes have no additional cost other than the required subscription fee, therefore "free" as you are not paying any additional fees to get them, except your playtime.
As for Eragale: Yes, I am assuming with strong points that your problem are trust issues.
If you're worried that a cosmetic only cash shop might turn into a P2W one at some point, that sounds like trust issues to me. Intrepid Studios has done nothing to make us distrust them. It's quite the opposite.
As for your quote "If you want this MMO to Thrive, then be more considerate & mindful as to how Cash Shop starts & utterly ruins MMOs. ", this 100% sounds like trust issues, as you do not want a cash shop to ruin a game like many other games in the past.
One of the strong points they made about this game was "NO P2W" whatsoever. If that still makes you doubt IS, then it can only be trust issues.
Ofcouse, people can twist words again and come up with their excuses "How is the game not P2W when you need to pay montly just to play it and therefore can potentially win".
- Please, we are past this childish internet era.
cosmetic items, i don't mind paying a bit extra for. it's an additional content to dress the character up, and in most cases can be really worth it. it's optional, so you aren't forced to buy it, but it'll depend a lot on the look of the gear in game in the end. they do have to pay for the servers too, remember that part. regarding dlc, if it isn't costing more, that's great. as long as they don't decide to sell the game to someone else to develop and they start charging exorbitant amounts for what wasn't meant to be costing that much. i've seen that happen before and it's annoying, let alone a betrayal for those that remained loyal to the game in question.
seriously, some people like to rp dress ups, and if the devs work on a specific look external to the game they should receive some compensation for their time for it. but the cosmetic items has to be, and remain to be, something separate from the main game. all core content should take precedence over any and all cosmetics, as we aren't buying the game for the sole purpose of a wardrobe. i like the character to look good, but i prefer the gameplay to be far superior and immersive enough to be worth my time.
We moved passed p2w ages ago and focused attention towards how micro transactions in general tend to have a number of negative issues, other than just p2w which can be attributed to negatively impacting the game.
So the "No p2w" sales pitch is not the be all and end of all non offensive cash shops*
Because there would be no point of a cash shop if the free* costumes were better* That's basically hitting the nail on the head.
So just as "No p2w" I would like to have affirmation of:
No advertising*
No limited sales*
No cash only*
No intermediary currency*
No exchange*
No Asset flips*
No colour/palette shifts*
Also @Whocando
There will be Limited Sales
There will be Cash Only Cosmetics
You cannot trade Cash Shop items
These 3 points have already been mentioned in past streams
And with that, I'm out as I see no point in arguing about the personal opinion about if one trusts or not \o
So those 3 points are established* as you have specified repeatedly.
there is a problem with the first 2.
Because the limitation* of content is arbitrary in the digital format, it is false scarcity for the sake of maximizing impulse purchasing and profit.
Cash only* specific itemization creates segregation in both content and player base population...it's pandering to harpoon whales* at the expense of consistent subscriptions.
They may not be traded* but can they be gifted*?
So your evidence @Ziltch suggests that the cash shop* is not just facilitating additional funds* but is cashing in on whales* with known exploitative marketing strategies
Lets not forget the loose "exclusivity" of the crowd funding came down to price* not itemization* and when it was compromised the damage control came down to additional small purchase fees and free* handouts to appease and silence.
Top notch trust* building right there....
'Absolutely no reason to doubt Intrepid'...let me just get my gullibility detector.
The PR wordplay wouldn't be required if there was not a underlying problem and discrepancy.
It's not a trust issue.... It has always been a respect issue.
It's not a personal opinion, it's a shared perspective.
Also I am waiting for my requested example of a non offensive cash shop* @Ziltch, but it's ok it was a baited request.
I will never understand how players defend this. The education system? Paint chips? Fluoride + water? Sincerely want to know, please justify it.
I honestly do not understand how people can support the CS. "Yes please nickel and dime me"-- it's only good for IS in the short term and not good for anyone in the long run. I understand IS is a business and they are looking to make money, but if you focus on building a good game then the subscription model alone can make them plenty of money.
I read through this whole thread and can't remember one point as to why a CS is a good thing. I saw lots of "its only cosmetics so i don't care" and many people have posted many reasons on why it's a bad idea, but not one reason why there should be a CS.
BDO micro transactions are some of the worst available. $20 - $30 for 1 cosmetic set..... that is half box price for a AAA game or full box + extra for an indie game........ for 1 cosmetic set.
"Here is your potato sack for the rest of the game. Of course you can play our game from start to finish without touching the cash shop. Oh you want to look good? We gave you a potato sack.... if you want something more than that you are going to need to pay us a lot more than the box and subscription price to look good."
@CylverRayne your view point leads to:
A ) diminished game play unless money is dumped in to micro transactions.
B ) cheapened player earnings and achievements.
C ) diminished content value of box / subscription
D ) stepping stone for convenience and P2W.
I would be interested in hearing this view point defended further. Just how far down does the rabbit hole go?
I would like to see people rationalize the need for a cash shop as well. Please white knights of the cash shop tell us how micro transactions are going to enhance the game. Tell us how our game experience is going to be soooo much better while costing us more $$ and giving us less content.
Don't expect an answer Rumlox. There isn't one. Micro transactions are not pro consumer.
The best you will get out of them is "but I wanna support the company and devs outside of my subscription fee."
But even this excuse is hollow and shallow, easily put to the test when they expect a return for supporting the game. How many of the people using this excuse are eager to send their hard earned money knowing they get nothing in return...... no pixels.... no pat on the back, perhaps a mention in the credits. A select very few maybe, but not many. Even those select few, would only do it to varying degrees, lines in the sand so to speak.
C) The value of the subscription is what a person makes of it. The value and what it contains does not change because someone buys a cosmetic.
D) People are backing this game because of Steven's promises which include no F2P and no P2W. He also said that cosmetics from the store will not diminish what is obtained in the world.
I find your name interesting.
I don't see why you are defending this. If you don't care then why comment at all? If you are pro CS then why?
I don't think its bitching to say that the game would be much better if every item is attained in game, and to state the reasons why we feel that way.
A ) Cosmetics do add to game play. The appearance of a character should reflect the accomplishments and the trials a player has been through. I will say that from my experience with BDO, BDO's gear system fails horribly to represent increases in upgrades of gear. Each upgrade piece looks almost exactly the same as the starter newbie gear and this is done by intentional design to pressure players to hit the cash shop. That is not good game design. How about RP players? I think it would be hard to argue that RP players don't find added value in cosmetics.
B ) Being able to whip out a CC and buy cosmetics does cheapen player earnings and achievements. Why spend time and effort killing boss XXXX or completing quest XXXX to increase the look of your character when said time and effort can be saved and utilized else where, simply by out right buying what you want rather than earning it. Out right buying cosmetics cheapens and diminishes the effort and time of players who killed boss XXXX or completed quest XXXX.
C ) This is somewhat true. I also believe that a subscription is what you make it. However I disagree that value does not change due to the cash shop. The second available content is placed behind a pay wall, it devalues what you are getting in return for a subscription. That is content that should be available in the game or offered via expansion. Once it is behind a pay wall, it is not available to players unless they throw more money to the game.
D ) Again somewhat true. People are buying into Stevens promises. However his statements are at conflict with each other. I would refer you to a comment that was discussed over earlier in the thread. This statement would imply that only some of the in game cosmetics are on par with those available in the cash shop. Meaning most of the cash shop cosmetics will be superior to those found in game.
Steven-07/17/2017
"but I have called them out on what I have seen as them acting dodgy. The KS exclusive issue, the KS "earliest access to Ashes" tagline, and the MAGA hats which basically cry out to me "I'm a racist idiot." They have no obligation to listen to me, but I will point it out."
In your own words @UnknownSystemError, IS has no obligation to listen to me, but I will point it out. As an individual they might not hear me or give me any consideration. However I am not alone and it would be in the best interest of IS not to disregard a large segment of their potential customer base who share my sentiments and vote with their wallets.
The MAGA hat made me lol.
B - Disagree. It cheapens the gear for those who did spent time and effort and feels like it cheapens their effort, that's all.
C - You are paying for a service, if they chose to make additional things outside of it, that does not lessen the value of your subscription. You are getting your value's worth, you are just not getting access to everything. And this time, you are getting access to ALL content with the base subscription, no DLC or Exp costs. So I cannot agree with you on this point.
D -
"There are cosmetics that are achieveable in the game, and they will be on-par with cosmetics that are achieveable through the cash shop."
"Will we just gut the cosmetics in the game so that we can incentivice and monetize the cosmetics in the Cash Shop? No. That's a version of cash-grab that we don't want to do."
Source
As you can see (hear), your point A is already been said they will not do. So your point A is not discussable/argueable. (As arguing personal trust is not really something that can be argued in itself, either you do or you don't)
But back to point D.
I saw/heard no meniton of the word "some" in there.
A ) This is an opinion, no less valid than anyone else’s, but bolding a word does not make it fact. The appearance of a character can reflect the accomplishments of the player, if the player so wishes.
If I want to wear a big straw hat that I bought from a peasant for a potato, then I can – and will. Many people will choose to display their accomplishments through gear, if they can, but just as many will choose a look based on what they like that will have nothing to do with their accomplishments.
With the addition of skins and transmogs in MMOs, the wearing of a piece of gear for prestige purposes has lost its impact. There is a good solid mix of choice for people to make on how they look and people have shown in games that already exist how willing they are to make decisions on their look that satisfy their own desires.
B ) This is a highly subjective point. It only cheapens that if you feel that way. I won’t feel that way. I don’t judge my accomplishments against others, and I also don’t look for validation by others. How will you ever know that another person wearing that bright blue breastplate bought it from the cash shop? Will you ask? This point may feel very important to you, but it is completely meaningless to me.
My take on a cash shop is that I am completely fine for cosmetic items to exist for purchase only if they are also available in game. If they are only available in the cash shop then I will be disappointed (and I am prepared for disappointment as this is the way it seems to be going based on statements already made by the devs).
I don’t care if someone decides to spend $5 on a hat that I spent 50,000 in game gold for – that is choice and it means that I can achieve and own everything that Intrepid designs for the game. If, however, there are items that I can only ever get through paying real money on top of my sub, then I will be disappointed - just like I have been disappointed in every MMO I have played in the last 3 years. I would like Intrepid to be different on this point, but it seems like they will not be.
In my opinion, my sub should provide me access to ALL content that Intrepid create. It then becomes my choice if I want to spend the time and effort on that content.
My take of your opinion could be wrong, you seem to be in the "don't care either way about micro transactions for as long as I can find / earn everything in game," kinda camp. If correct, my question to you would be, what benefit is there to players by implementing micro transactions in the first place while taking your view? Is there an enhancement of game play among players as a result of having access to the cosmetic only cash shop?
I ask with this plausible scenario in mind:
You and your guild decide to farm for however long it takes each of you to get the 50,000 gold for matching hats. A rival guild all pay $5 for those same hats and then each spends the 50,000 gold they didn't have to use buying hats, to instead buy swords, declare war against your guild, and proceed to kill your guild and take over your guild's castle.
An over simplified scenario for sure. However each guild in the scenario had the same time spent farming up those 50,000 gold coins. Both guilds got hats. One guild got the upper hand. Thoughts?
Completely fine with that scenario. If I was dumb enough to spend my money on a hat before I had properly kitted out my character with gear to survive then I get what I deserve. Nothing is making anyone spend in game gold on cosmetics, just like there is nothing making anyone spend their real life money on them either. I will never spend a single cent on cash shop cosmetics.
I don’t care if they create the most amazing warhammer skin that will fit my cleric absolutely perfectly and I sit and drool over it. If it is even $1 I will not purchase. I will however spend hours in the game for gold to spend to buy that warhammer – I will do this because it is my choice to spend my game time on something I enjoy.
If this somehow gives another player an advantage then so be it. It is no different than me riding around exploring, just looking at the vistas (so many vistas!) instead of levelling or crafting, or any activity that can make me gold. It is my choice on how to spend my game time and with every choice that is made come consequences.
What a cash shop that has exclusive content does do, is breed resentment. It might only be in 20% (or even only 5%) of the playerbase, but it generates resentment nonetheless. Any computer game is a business first and foremost and if the business decision is to add a cash shop (even if just for cosmetic items) then I don’t really have a problem with that.
I have stated how I wish it to work, and how a cash shop will make me happy – a lot of people have more money than time and will gladly spend $5 or $10 on a cosmetic item, mount or pet. While I might never waste my money, they may think that they would never waste their time in game. It is all preference.
Intrepid have all been about player choice and player agency. I think a cash shop with exclusive items goes directly against this design paradigm. Cash shops can generate a lot of revenue for a company with relatively small outlay so I see the attraction. Yes, someone like me will potentially play the game longer because I am using a chunk of my time to achieve things in game that other people have spent money on, but then again the people who purchase from a cash shop will also pay the same sub as me, and potentially play for just as many months. So Intrepid will get a lot more revenue out of those people, and those players that are happy to part with their money, than they ever will out of me.
Not everyone can be happy with whatever system is implemented but there are ways to make a majority happy without compromising the goals that Intrepid have been so clear in communicating. These goals are the reason the majority of us are here, passionate about the game with at least 2 years until release.
I don’t want to dissuade Intrepid from introducing a cash shop (as I think that is a forlorn hope) but I would very much like to dissuade them from cash shop exclusivity.