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Lets talk about the Elephant in the room(PvP), slowly creeping up on us

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Comments

  • Sikuba said:
    Well, based on that logic, we don't know whether or not anyone will ever attack anyone at all in any situation. Everything here is hypothetical, you can't just write off one point out of a discussion that is all theory because we don't know that we'll be seeing people do it.
    But, we can (and should) refrain from asserting things we know nothing about - like how prevalent attacking greens will be in the game - as if it were factual rather than an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

    Sikuba said:
    If you do not believe this to be enough to reduce this kind of harassment to where it will not be an issue, or at least be uncommon, then that is your opinion. You are entitled to this opinion, although I would hope that you could support it with solid logic. I, for one, do not feel as though this method will be viable, as it is both inefficient for acquiring resources and potentially dangerous for the one harassing.
    Burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim.
    And it's up to the person making the positive claim to provide sufficient evidence to convince the non-believer.
    It's not possible to provide sufficient evidence in the situation because we have no access to the data that could support the assertion. That is fact.

    Sikuba said:
    Entering a game with world PvP almost ensures that you will encounter it at some point. 
    I'm sure Lateana, as well as the rest of the PvE crowd will be perfectly happy. 
    Being sure that Lateana and the rest of the PvE crowd will be perfectly happy is an irrational conclusion. Especially since Lateana continues to express her concerns about PvP combat in Ashes.
    My understanding of Lateana's perspective is that she would prefer a game that has PvP combat either regulated to instances, a separate server or PvP immunity flags. It may very well be that Corruption is not a sufficient deterrent preventing other players from attacking her while she is minding her own business - we won't know until we play the game and see how people actually respond to the Corruption mechanic.

    You could be sure that the Earth is not round and that people did not travel to the Moon. But, that would not mean your surety comports with reality.
  • Atleast they are trying to do something against grievers. I hate doing PvE, and i would always get attacked from behind, while i was doing something else
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    What he described didn't sound like mindless ganking to me. Mindless ganking is attacking someone because you can, which is something the system discourages. Coordinating an attack to weaken a enemy node's economy isn't mindless. If you look at the fact resources drop on death and how the caravan system is set up, you can tell the flagging system encourages us to fight over resources.

    I look forward to raids and being raided because those are how big battles are started.

    I don't think the flagging system will affect zergs and "anti zerg" mechanics will come from other places. I can see the lack of fast travel and open world nature of the game having a huge affect on zergs but only time will tell. That said, this is an MMO where you are supposed to play with others. Encouraging people to work together for protection is a way of getting players to play together.

    Hmmmn. For me, it's really semantics.
    I would say what Davlos described was pretty weak, lame and thoughtless - one step below mindless in my personal hierarchy.
    It's akin to people who are all, "Elves killed my parents so all Elves are KOS to me (see, I'm roleplaying. RAWR!)"

    Davlos' scenario: It can be in my interest to reduce the earning potential of a neighboring node, and I can send in two dozen PVPers with decent (and not their top-tier) gear. They can then rampage and burn their way through the node while racking up corruption until they eventually die and drop the expendable gear, and it's still not griefing because it satisfies a legitimate political goal - is griefing.
    If it weren't griefing, there would be no penalty for the behavior. But, there will be a penalty for that behavior (Corruption), as an attempt to minimize griefing.
  • @Dygz

    You're refusing to acknowledge my points and are falling back to the "it's all hypothetical" argument that I mentioned in the passage. The conclusion that she will be happy is entirely rational given my arguments, which again, you failed to acknowledge or refute. You have yet to refute a single point of mine and insist on arguing instead of discussing and addressing the various points I have made, a courtesy I have afforded you time and again.

    Honestly, with that quantity of comments behind you, I was expecting to have higher-quality discussion with you, but it's like you don't even read what I post before you type.

    There's no substance to your response:
    Dygz said:
    Sikuba said:
    Well, based on that logic, we don't know whether or not anyone will ever attack anyone at all in any situation. Everything here is hypothetical, you can't just write off one point out of a discussion that is all theory because we don't know that we'll be seeing people do it.
    But, we can (and should) refrain from asserting things we know nothing about - like how prevalent attacking greens will be in the game - as if it were factual rather than an unsubstantiated hypothesis.
    Here is the first example of an abstract, unsubstantiated claim - that I was speaking of things I didn't know about. Better yet, the following sentence is completely unrelated to what I wrote, and contradicts your points more than it does mine. I was not talking about how often Green players will be attacked - it was you who stated your concern about PvEers being attacked or harassed to begin with. I gave a very detailed response of Incentives and Deterrents (risk vs. reward), which you chose to ignore instead of addressing, much less refuting.
    Dygz said:
    Sikuba said:
    If you do not believe this to be enough to reduce this kind of harassment to where it will not be an issue, or at least be uncommon, then that is your opinion. You are entitled to this opinion, although I would hope that you could support it with solid logic. I, for one, do not feel as though this method will be viable, as it is both inefficient for acquiring resources and potentially dangerous for the one harassing.
    Burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim.
    And it's up to the person making the positive claim to provide sufficient evidence to convince the non-believer.
    It's not possible to provide sufficient evidence in the situation because we have no access to the data that could support the assertion. That is fact.
    I made my proof through many arguments, all of which you chose to ignore. If you could counter my arguments instead of making broad claims that basically just say "You're wrong because it isn't out yet and you can't know for sure". Nothing on this thread deals with absolutes. We are discussing theoretical systems that could change on a whim. You expect the impossible when looking at the opinion of others, yet have the gall to assert your own claims as correct and undebateable. Your understanding of Burden of proof is extremely flawed. I would suggest doing some research before making such an assertion. Burden of proof applies to both positive and negative claims - skepticism does not warrant entitlement. You need to back up your assertion just as much as I do mine, which you haven't in the slightest. You also still need to be able to refute the claims I make in order to rationally hold the opposing opinion. Otherwise there is no discussion, as is clearly the case here.
    Dygz said:
    Sikuba said:
    Entering a game with world PvP almost ensures that you will encounter it at some point. 
    I'm sure Lateana, as well as the rest of the PvE crowd will be perfectly happy. 
    Being sure that Lateana and the rest of the PvE crowd will be perfectly happy is an irrational conclusion. Especially since Lateana continues to express her concerns about PvP combat in Ashes.
    My understanding of Lateana's perspective is that she would prefer a game that has PvP combat either regulated to instances, a separate server or PvP immunity flags. It may very well be that Corruption is not a sufficient deterrent preventing other players from attacking her while she is minding her own business - we won't know until we play the game and see how people actually respond to the Corruption mechanic.

    You could be sure that the Earth is not round and that people did not travel to the Moon. But, that would not mean your surety comports with reality.
    The icing on the cake is when you cut out the first line of my paragraph, as well as the conclusion, and completely ignore the points I made within the paragraph. You take the claim and conclusion and cut out my proof as though I did nothing to connect the two. Honestly, you have some nerve. I spend time and energy on each of my arguments, only for them to be ignored half the time on a regular basis. But with you, I have made multiple comments, all of which you have failed to appropriately address. That right there is a broad claim. All. But I am absolutely confident in that assertion. I sincerely hope that the rest of your posts on this forum contain a higher level of discourse

    Now I want you to actually try to refute the points I made above in a valid manner that shows a greater capacity for discourse than you have heretofore exhibited. More than just "because we don't have enough information", or "because you're wrong". If you fail to do so adequately, I will consider further discussion pointless.

    No one knows how a discussion works anymore. We can probably thank the internet for that - far too many people think that they're entitled to an opinion without having to offer any evidence or reason, or refute that of others. So give me some valid points. Or if you disagree that lacking information is invalid, refute my reasoning behind that. Do something besides repeat yourself. Please.

    Sikuba
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    That's a huge wall of text for completely missing the mark.
    You don't have to convince me.
    You have to convince Lateana and the rest of the PvE crowd.

    And, I'm done with this derail.
  • Sikuba said:
    Words
    The first rule to residing in these forums is to realize @Dygz is only here to engage in circular arguments, and view his/her/pronoun posts as emote spam in any Twitch stream. Hell, Dygz isn't even relevant in any testing at the moment.

    Do that, and 50% of the chaff around here is already filtered out.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    By the way, does anyone know how looting works in regards to mobs? Is it based on who did the most damage, who got the last hit, etc.? I don't know if they've released that yet. I'd hope that they would make it so that the higher damage % gets all of the loot dropped. I don't want someone popping by last second and taking the kill and loot from me :grimace:
  • Sikuba said:
    By the way, does anyone know how looting works in regards to mobs? Is it based on who did the most damage, who got the last hit, etc.? I don't know if they've released that yet. I'd hope that they would make it so that the higher damage % gets all of the loot dropped. I don't want someone popping by last second and taking the kill and loot from me :grimace:
    Put that down for a question for the next livestream?
  • It's not going to be locked to the higher damage %, but you will still be happy with the loot mechanics.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    @Davlos 

    Oof, repping Imperium - that's intense. Checked out your guild's website a while back and you all look super legit. Glad to see you guys are also present in and around the forums, despite having such a presence in so many games.
  • Sikuba said:
    @Davlos 

    Oof, repping Imperium - that's intense. Checked out your guild's website a while back and you all look super legit. Glad to see you guys are also present in and around the forums, despite having such a presence in so many games.
    Yep, there are many of us. Join the Borg, we will assimilate you. 
  • Davlos said:
    nagash said:
    Do you understand that not everyone who is part of a node is an enemy? Attacking a nodes people just to bring it down is fine in war, but as part of everyday life it's just going to make people hate you and in some cases the game. If all you see is PvP or guild vs guild then you are the one who does not understand what this game is meant to be.

    Then despite your ridiculous level of posting on these forums, you exhibit a poor interpretation of design philosophy in this node system. If Node A levels up to 4, neighboring Node B will only get to stay locked at 3 and can't go any farther until Node A is knocked down to 3. Even if Node A gets knocked down to 3, who knows if another neighboring Node C, also at level 3, will quickly work its way to 4? Staying still in node progression means even PVE progression will come to a halt. There's nothing else even for PVE players to do if the node level is locked at 3, and hungry for content, they will leave to the level 4 node. The dozen-players-with-decent-gear-raid scenario I outlined was an unconventional 

    This system is deliberately designed to encourage Hobbesian conflict of all against all. It's frankly embarrassing on your part that for the amount of time you spend around these forums, you sound like someone who only just discovered this game two days ago. I genuinely feel embarrassed for you.
    I am fully aware how the game is meant to work, but that still does not take away from what I said. Not everyone who is part of a node wants to help build the node or heavens forbid fight you. Some people just want to be left to their own devices and have fun hunting mobs or gathering. In my post I even state that when you are at war with a node, trade e.g. PvE player is fair game but what you are saying is just banditry in the name of progress.

     On a side note I may post a lot on the forums but I'm not sure what that has to do with my ability to understand what the devs plan is?
  • Davlos said:
    OnyxTN said:
    But most people should not be worried about corruption. I'd say if you've killed someone twice and they're still not attacking back. Stop. Because that is no longer PvP regardless of how you see it. If a player does not want to partake in PvP and you continue to kill them, that is griefing and is of no benefit to you. Hence the stacking penalty.
    Eh, there's another angle to this. It can be in my interest to reduce the earning potential of a neighboring node, and I can send in two dozen PVPers with decent (and not their top-tier) gear. They can then rampage and burn their way through the node while racking up corruption until they eventually die and drop the expendable gear, and it's still not griefing because it satisfies a legitimate political goal (see: Clausewitz on war is the continuation of policy by other means).

    If the receiving end of the raid suffers heavy losses, then it's their fault of being unable to handle players wearing merely decent gear.
    It was late and I worded it wrong. Yes, you obviously will have some form of benefit for killing that player because of the way the game works.

    However I standby and will always standby the fact that regardless of whether I gain something, repeatedly killing someone who does not want to fight is griefing (whether unintentional or not).
    They're paying to play the game just like me and I am potentially ruining their experience and time. If this happens to them regularly, they might quit the game.
    (this happens a lot more than you might think.)
    Which is a detriment to the game I wish to survive. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    nagash said:

    banditry in the name of progress.

    And what is so morally reprehensible about it? It can be considered a politically expedient method of weakening a neighbor without arousing suspicion of whom the perpetrator is, and I don't need to declare a war. What's to stop me from hiring a mercenary guild to conduct that raid, and to pay extra for the confidentiality of their client's identity? If they leak my identity anyway, then it becomes my fault for hiring the wrong mercenaries. 

    My line is drawn at DDOSing a rival guild's Mumble/TS server or exposing the RL identities of other people, but I don't care about your feelings on what you feel constitutes "griefing".
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Davlos said:
    nagash said:

    banditry in the name of progress.

    And what is so morally reprehensible about it? It can be considered a politically expedient method of weakening a neighbor without arousing suspicion of whom the perpetrator is, and I don't need to declare a war. What's to stop me from hiring a mercenary guild to conduct that raid, and to pay extra for the confidentiality of their client's identity? If they leak my identity anyway, then it becomes my fault for hiring the wrong mercenaries. 

    My line is drawn at DDOSing a rival guild's Mumble/TS server or exposing the RL identities of other people, but I don't care about your feelings on what you feel constitutes "griefing".
    You probably shouldn't be allowed an internet connection.
  • Davlos said:
    Ferryman said:
    Davlos said:
    Ferryman said: Even hardcore full loot PvP games has anti-zerging mechanics, so why on earth Ashes should not have any? You are clearly at wrong game.   
    What, Albion? I know where you borrowed that minimap ping from. Albion likes to think of itself as hardcore, but isn't hardcore enough. Hell, watch the public AOC Alpha Zero streams and you won't see any minimap to speak of.

    Come play Eve, join an established alliance, observe the infrastructure set up with intel channels where fellow members notify others of enemy movements and when to get safe + standing orders on how to get safe.

    That's the kind of emergent gameplay IS are gunning for with Node vs Node warfare and intrigue, and you shouldn't expect to be coddled by IS with mechanics to keep you safe.
    Yes i borrowed minimap idea from Albion, but i would prefer that you could actually hear larger group coming like in real life. And because in Alpha zero does not have minimap it automatically means there wont be one in full version? Right..

    Albion may not be hardcore enough to ultimate hardcore players, but it is still ten times more hardcore than Ashes. And thanks for inviting to take part of EvE, and even i love sandbox games, i dont like to fly with space rockets so i will pass. 
    If you won't expose yourself to what many developers consider to be the gold standard of the sandbox MMO which facilitates emergent gameplay, then you don't love sandbox games enough as you claim.
    You are wrong person to tell what i like or not. I am not a person who wants every game be the same or i want only play sandbox games, even i like the base idea of those. I like different kind of concepts and i accept the maincore as it stands and if the game does not feel right to me then i will just pass it. At least i am not trying desperately change Ashes core mechanics to favor my playstyle or personal interests.
  • Noaani said:
    Davlos said:
    nagash said:

    banditry in the name of progress.

    And what is so morally reprehensible about it? It can be considered a politically expedient method of weakening a neighbor without arousing suspicion of whom the perpetrator is, and I don't need to declare a war. What's to stop me from hiring a mercenary guild to conduct that raid, and to pay extra for the confidentiality of their client's identity? If they leak my identity anyway, then it becomes my fault for hiring the wrong mercenaries. 

    My line is drawn at DDOSing a rival guild's Mumble/TS server or exposing the RL identities of other people, but I don't care about your feelings on what you feel constitutes "griefing".
    You probably shouldn't be allowed an internet connection.



  • @Davlos

    It isn't a sensitivity thing, it's a business thing.

    There is nothing good you could do on the internet with your attitude, and any community you become a part of, you will have a hand in destroying.

    Based on that, you are a financial liability.
  • Davlos said:
    nagash said:

    banditry in the name of progress.

    And what is so morally reprehensible about it? It can be considered a politically expedient method of weakening a neighbor without arousing suspicion of whom the perpetrator is, and I don't need to declare a war. What's to stop me from hiring a mercenary guild to conduct that raid, and to pay extra for the confidentiality of their client's identity? If they leak my identity anyway, then it becomes my fault for hiring the wrong mercenaries. 

    My line is drawn at DDOSing a rival guild's Mumble/TS server or exposing the RL identities of other people, but I don't care about your feelings on what you feel constitutes "griefing".
    That's where we differ I suppose.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018


    Moving past morality, perhaps I am incorrect, but from what I understood from having read a bit into the node system, the only nodes that are locked in level are those beneath a Parent node, and Metropolis nodes. Neighboring nodes can be equal levels, so long as one of them is not the Parent of the other. The conflict arises when you try to turn a City into a Metropolis, as there can only be 5* Metropolises per server.

    I could very well be incorrect, but that has been my understanding of it.

    Edit: Question related to: "If Node A levels up to 4, neighboring Node B will only get to stay locked at 3 and can't go any farther until Node A is knocked down to 3. Even if Node A gets knocked down to 3, who knows if another neighboring Node C, also at level 3, will quickly work its way to 4? Staying still in node progression means even PVE progression will come to a halt. There's nothing else even for PVE players to do if the node level is locked at 3, and hungry for content, they will leave to the level 4 node."
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    I'm not really sure what you mean.

    1: Each server can have a max of 5 Metropolises.

    2: The nodes within the ZOI of the Parent node are all part of the hierarchy of the ZOI. So, there will be a limit on how many Stage 4 nodes are possible and how many Stage 3 nodes are possible in a ZOI based on the current Stage of the Parent node.

    3: Nodes in neighboring ZOIs could have a range of levels based on what is happening elsewhere on the server.

    4: Part of the PvP conflict arises from which racial themes the players wish to have reflected in the local nodes. And which node type(s) the players wish to have greatest prominence locally. In addition, to the types of buildings and services people in the community wish to be implemented in the village, city, etc.
  • Everybody should remember, that at this point we cannot be sure how the corruption system will really work out. What if it turns to be too soft or too easy to work around in practise? So the corruption system can also be more penalizing in future. It only depends how the players will play within the rules and how much there will be ganking or even griefing. I am not saying the system should be any more penalizing, just saying it can be. 
  • @Dygz

    It was based on the comment Dalos made earlier - I should have quoted it, I'll change that. The 4 for the Metropolises was just a misrememberance on my part. I did some digging through the archives and found the post by Lexmax that says "After every advancement, an increasing ring of neighboring nodes are locked out from progressing to the next stage. The advancement of a node unlocks its unique content, which comes at the cost of locking out unique content available in neighboring nodes."

    That's what I had been wondering about. I had either missed or forgotten that part.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Ferryman said:
    Everybody should remember, that at this point we cannot be sure how the corruption system will really work out. What if it turns to be too soft or too easy to work around in practise? So the corruption system can also be more penalizing in future. It only depends how the players will play within the rules and how much there will be ganking or even griefing. I am not saying the system should be any more penalizing, just saying it can be. 
    True, but I think that most of us are discussing this with the knowledge that it's all speculation at this point. There aren't any tangible issues yet because there isn't much of a game right now.

    But it's still interesting to talk and think about the plans that have been made and try to anticipate potential issues - it's what the devs have to do. Any discussion we make towards that end can only make it easier for them to find and work around potential issues  :3
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    Sikuba said:
    @Dygz

    It was based on the comment Dalos made earlier - I should have quoted it, I'll change that. The 4 for the Metropolises was just a misrememberance on my part. I did some digging through the archives and found the post by Lexmax that says "After every advancement, an increasing ring of neighboring nodes are locked out from progressing to the next stage. The advancement of a node unlocks its unique content, which comes at the cost of locking out unique content available in neighboring nodes."

    That's what I had been wondering about. I had either missed or forgotten that part.
    Right, it's an increasing number as the ZOI spreads to include more nodes.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited May 2018
    It will be interesting to see what adjustments are made as development continues...
  • Personally, I look forward to the challenge of a dynamic world.  I despise mindless NPCs who offer no challenge in combat; who can be "controlled" based upon aggro to mitigate any real threat.  

    Playing against other players offers a more real setting.  I have always stated that the role of society is to foster peace among it's inhabitants.

    If you are in relatively civilized area you should be able to be assaulted; BUT the penalty should be neighboring guards/civilians leaping to the rescue.  The further you get from society the response should be delayed but those guilty of criminal act should gain a reputation which starts locally, expands regionally until hitting a point of infamy.

    Infamy should cause you to lose access at the applicable local, regional, national level to merchants, markets, services and offer bounties to others who desire to "enforce the laws of civilized society"  Resetting the infamy of the guilty upon meting out punishment.

    For there to be wolves there must be sheep; but lets create a system that rewards being a sheep dog.

    I do not like who hit whom first systems... I can create a level one player and run into anyone's PVE AOE and cause him to be flagged if we do not look carefully look at the mechanics.

  • Pogybait said:

    I do not like who hit whom first systems... I can create a level one player and run into anyone's PVE AOE and cause him to be flagged if we do not look carefully look at the mechanics.

    I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have - it's not about who hit whom. In fact, I don't think AoE can hit other players unless you flag yourself. And even if you flag or are already flagged and attack someone, you are only penalized if they don't attack back.
  • I should point out that I belong to a gaming cooperative that spans many games. Most of us are following what happens here and might join if the game meets our needs, either individually or as a group. If we decide to come here as a group we will have a full contingent of players. As it currently stands, we are still watching to see what happens.
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