How fast should a player get to Level 10 ?

ArchivedUser

title speaks for itself  ~.~

ArchivedUser

I always like the idea of having an XP system where you have to get the same amount of exp but at every level, it multiplies by that level so

level 1 = 10000 xp
level 2 = 10000 xp x 2 = 20000
level 3 = 20000 xp x 3 = 60000
level 4 = 60000 xp x 4 = 240000
level 5 = 240000 xp x 5 = 1200000
level 6 = 1200000 xp x 6 = 7200000

And so forth it may seem like a lot of grinding, but I want the game to last as long as it can plus from a role-playing perspective we have no idea about this world so a mage should take months if not years to become a master. That how I see it anyway.

p.s I meant to press 4-5 month not 1-2 months
 

ArchivedUser

I don't remember which livestream it was, someone else can go hunting, but they touched on this. They have to find that sweet spot where people feel that they are gaining power in a meaningful way, but not so fast they burn to max vertical level in a week and quit. If I remember correctly the plan is for the early levels to go fairly quickly to give you a sense of your archetype and possible options, then to become a much slower process. Thing they are going to try and avoid is the mid level plateau where say if 50 is max, everyone just hates the levels 20-40.

ArchivedUser

I think it should be time invested and almost exponential similar to what @nagash posted.

Play time (accumulative)
2 Hr - lvl 2
4 hr - lvl 3
8 hr - lvl 4
12 hr lvl 5
18 hr - lvl 6
24 hr - lvl 7
36 hr - lvl 8
48 hr - lvl 9
60 hr - lvl 10

Then 12 hours of play time per level after that, although if that slowly grew to 18, then 24, then 36 and so on I would be happy. I think by level 50 the time frame would be huge and I would be okay with that, but I doubt most of the player base would be.

This is just my opinion though, and I would prefer to stay at the earlier stages longer while being able to quest and explore. When I play D&D, the first 4 levels are generally my favorite though.

ArchivedUser

I'm not sure how I would figure it in time, I just know I don't want it to be fast, where we are seeing 50s in the first week.  Heck, I don't want to see 50s in the first month. 

I'm hoping that with a complex system that Ashes seems to offer that it will be a game I can play for years, and that there is enough content to keep people interested in many areas that a slow progression will be meaningful. 

ArchivedUser

Just keep in mind that dual-classing does not kick in before Level 30.

I don't necessarily care about levels as long as there is a decent supply of augments available.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Just keep in mind that dual-classing does not kick in before Level 30.

I don't necessarily care about levels as long as there is a decent supply of augments available.

@Dygz Was this confirmed?
I thought they were still playing with the idea and didn't even know the max level yet.  I believe they tossed out level 40 as max, but I don't even know how far people got in Alpha 0 for testing.

ArchivedUser

The speed of leveling is not as important to me as having enough diverse content to keep me engaged during the leveling process

ArchivedUser

Caelron said:

Dygz said:

Just keep in mind that dual-classing does not kick in before Level 30.

I don't necessarily care about levels as long as there is a decent supply of augments available.

@Dygz Was this confirmed?
I thought they were still playing with the idea and didn't even know the max level yet.  I believe they tossed out level 40 as max, but I don't even know how far people got in Alpha 0 for testing.

Level 30 before being able to pick your secondary was indeed mentioned. Like anything, that was all said before they had any systems in place, so while we have 50 as their max vertical level and 30 before secondary class that will provide augments, that can all change at their whim. While much of A0 is still under NDA, stuff they have said is not. And tests of "backend systems and server loads" should be indicative of larger concepts having not been explored.

ArchivedUser

If I hit max level in under a year I will be disappointed. In 2 years, I'd be happy.

I think it really takes away from the engagement and satisfaction when, like in other MMOs, you can grind for 3 months and max out and then.....start over? This is a shortsighted approach to a game that should have a solid 10 year life span.

As a side note, when numbers get bigger small things matter more. I'd prefer to not see, say a certain damage class, be capable of grinding at a considerably faster pace with large time lines. 

Example
If it takes 100 days to max lvl for most, and a class "x" can do that in 50, that's kinda lame for those not that class.

However if it takes 1000 days to max lvl for most, and that class "x" can do it in 500, that's a terrible gap that can't be surmounted on any meaningful time line.

ArchivedUser

My understanding is that the max for A0 is Level 10.
Lots of stuff are not in A0 yet.

But, as we contemplate the design and how quickly we think it should take us to reach Level 10 or Level 30 or Level 50 - just keep in mind the associated repercussions of reaching the point when we can dual-class.

As JWetze1 stated, I don't necessarily care as long as there is plenty of diverse content and I don't feel stuck doing the exact same thing day after day after day.

As I play Bless Online, I feel like I'm basically using the same handful of skills in every battle. And there is very little risk of losing a battle.
Somehow the variety of mobs and tasks is still interesting enough to not feel monotonous...yet.

In Ashes, it seems as though progressing the nodes should provide a decent variety of mobs and tasks - so the world won't feel stagnant even if our basic skills were relatively static... but, we should be able to change the monotony of "static" skills via augments.
Also, in addition to class progression, we have racial progression and social progression and religious progression.

I want to feel like I am making progress.
As long as that is possible via node, racial, social, and religious progression... it may not matter much to me how long it takes to reach Level 10 of class progression.

I think the key is that class progression needs to feel as though it's balanced with node progression - to the extent that we're able to successfully combat local mobs.

ArchivedUser

JWetze1 said:

The speed of leveling is not as important to me as having enough diverse content to keep me engaged during the leveling process

Well said.

Leveling should feel engaging enough that the players forgive the grind. Exploring, researching, experimenting, and an engaging story plot will allow the hours to flow past without the players ever feeling burnt out by max level or, worse, in the mid levels.

ArchivedUser

@Dygz You made some great points, but nobody has mentioned anything about the actual meaning or impact of a level.

In Dungeons and Dragons, there was no "max level", but it was all assumed to be level 20 before you get in to the "epic" levels, or craziness, and start picking fights with Gods.  The whole concept of "experience" is what allows you to become stronger.

For example, a Wizard - until he learns the crazy spells at higher levels, is pretty much threatened by any person sneezing in his direction until his hit points get high enough.  And even then, if he's not prepared, almost anybody can still be a threat.  But, with very clever uses of those spells and proper preparation, he can threaten some unbelievably powerful opponents that are way stronger, or a higher level, than he is.

In the same way, as much as I would love leveling to be way more meaningful in the experience, I still want the real challenge of facing somebody with a different skill level or different situations.  To pick a number - if there was a level 13 rogue fighting a level 20 mage, I would reasonably expect the rogue to have the upper hand if he can sneak up on the mage and get in a good first sneak attack.... But, if the mage is prepared or expecting it, I imagine the mage to blow him to pieces before he gets close.  The mage shouldn't be that much stronger, if at all - but his repertoire of spells and skills should give him a larger advantage. 

ArchivedUser

I think there should not be something like max lvl. I like the softcap-hardcap concept. While the hard cap can be expanded by server progresion and unlocking new dungeons, hunting grounds(new mobs should be stronger but also yell way more exp) ect. not like it was in BDO where admins just changed exp rates and caps on thier own free will..

ArchivedUser

And so the great level debate started ^^

ArchivedUser

SaintJoanna said:

nagash said:

And so the great level debate started ^^

Oooh realy no like??? We disagree....

when has the ashes forums never had a debate when it comes to multiple ideas I mean its in your blood ( I would say mine as well but you know, bones and all) ^^

but in truth its always nice to see what everyone thinks 

ArchivedUser

SaintJoanna said:

I would like to spend less time leveling, and have more rare gear in the world and other stuff to build my character up.

Leveling can be such a bore, not everyone likes to grind 24/7, or have levels be more of a statement, a show of piece rather than it effecting your stats.

I'd take the exact opposite stance. Gear should have as small as possible effect on the combat. Dont get me wrong, it should have stats and grades etc, but small numbers. 

But this isn't  a Diablo game.

I'd prefer the skill of players to outshine the luck or wealth of players. By that I mean, if you get lucky and some badass gear drops for you, and I have crafted normal gear, I should still have a solid chance of beating you based on skill selection, timing and footwork. 

I can always go grind more levels to increase my power. And so can everyone else with equal opportunity. But if I never get that lucky drop, I shouldn't be relegated to a default loss to those who do. Leave luck in the casinos and skill in the games. 

Also, it should be a moot point, but lots of awesome gear is a key mechanic that p2w games turn to. Buy that gear, beat everyone who didn't. Not even having that possibility sound great to me.

-CS

ArchivedUser

From what i know about leveling, I think the first 10 levels should be doable in roughly 8-10 hours of playtime. I'd rather the more horizontal forms of progression like religion and social organizations be time sync instead of the vertical progression.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

I don't remember which livestream it was, someone else can go hunting, but they touched on this. They have to find that sweet spot where people feel that they are gaining power in a meaningful way, but not so fast they burn to max vertical level in a week and quit. If I remember correctly the plan is for the early levels to go fairly quickly to give you a sense of your archetype and possible options, then to become a much slower process. Thing they are going to try and avoid is the mid level plateau where say if 50 is max, everyone just hates the levels 20-40.

i personally was not too sure if Intrepid has discussed this before - so thx 

I truly feel as though that it should take longer than ... " 1 week = LvL 10 "
I'm hoping that it'll feel almost like RuneScape

• Only difference from RuneScape is that .. each " category " won't be given to the Player at the Start of the Game. Rather, I'm hoping that Intrepid allows Players to EXPLORE & FIND-OUT about the Secretive-Aspects of Ashes of Creation.
• Along side the fact that Node-Progressive will also be slow ... the Unknown could be Vast. Some things aren't accessible until after a Node Levels-up. And the ZOI of that same will also react to the Node Leveling-up. Plus, each ZOI will have a mixture of NPCs Level - meaning that not every NPC will be at a set-level range
•  ( via such as having one area being NPCs at from Lvl 10 - 15 ... rather it vary ; you might see LvL 8, a Lvl 27 and a LvL 16, all in one spot ... or i think )
• (and other things )

in short, if the Leveling is not long it, won't fit with the Environment & ideas that they have set-out. But it'll ultimately be dependent on how much emphasis LvL has on the of the Victor of PvE NPCs &  PvP

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

I would prefer to stay at the earlier stages longer while being able to quest and explore. 

^

ArchivedUser

@Azathoth
Because i was thinking more of Original EverQuest leveling

• Original EverQuest Leveling + RuneScape " Leveling " / Variety ... yet most of the " variety " being Unknown to the Player = the Golden Spot IMHO

ArchivedUser

Depends how many levels there are or will be added but I'd say the first 10 should be no longer than a few days and less than a week, obviously depends on game time.

ArchivedUser

Caelron said:

In the same way, as much as I would love leveling to be way more meaningful in the experience, I still want the real challenge of facing somebody with a different skill level or different situations.

^ why not both ?   

Caelron said:

 if there was a level 13 rogue fighting a level 20 mage, I would reasonably expect the rogue to have the upper hand if he can sneak up on the mage and get in a good first sneak attack.... But, if the mage is prepared or expecting it, I imagine the mage to blow him to pieces before he gets close.  The mage shouldn't be that much stronger, if at all - but his repertoire of spells and skills should give him a larger advantage. 

How much emphasis should LvL have on the Player(s) Winning via PvE & PvP ?

SaintJoanna said:

I would like to spend less time leveling, and have more rare gear in the world and other stuff to build my character up.

Leveling can be such a bore, not everyone likes to grind 24/7, or have levels be more of a statement, a show of piece rather than it effecting your stats.

How much emphasis should Gear have on the Player(s) winning in PvE & PvP ?

ArchivedUser

It will take as long as it takes...

ArchivedUser

Level cap in 7-8 months with 3-5 hours per day playing.

ArchivedUser

Caelron said:

@Dygz You made some great points, but nobody has mentioned anything about the actual meaning or impact of a level.

In Dungeons and Dragons, there was no "max level", but it was all assumed to be level 20 before you get in to the "epic" levels, or craziness, and start picking fights with Gods.  The whole concept of "experience" is what allows you to become stronger.

For example, a Wizard - until he learns the crazy spells at higher levels, is pretty much threatened by any person sneezing in his direction until his hit points get high enough.  And even then, if he's not prepared, almost anybody can still be a threat.  But, with very clever uses of those spells and proper preparation, he can threaten some unbelievably powerful opponents that are way stronger, or a higher level, than he is.

In the same way, as much as I would love leveling to be way more meaningful in the experience, I still want the real challenge of facing somebody with a different skill level or different situations.  To pick a number - if there was a level 13 rogue fighting a level 20 mage, I would reasonably expect the rogue to have the upper hand if he can sneak up on the mage and get in a good first sneak attack.... But, if the mage is prepared or expecting it, I imagine the mage to blow him to pieces before he gets close.  The mage shouldn't be that much stronger, if at all - but his repertoire of spells and skills should give him a larger advantage. 

In D&D, it was rare for characters or player groups to last long enough to reach Level 20. So, really not much reason to contemplate a max level. Max level in MMORPGs typically means - until more content is released. Which was initially the case for D&D, too.
Basic set [1-3] --> Expert [4-14] --> Companion [15-25] --> Master [26-36] --> Immortal [Transcended beyond levels]. With a couple years in-between while the devs worked on fleshing out the rules. I think AD&D 1E topped out around Level 20.

With D&D, you couldn't really do very much at lower levels.
Very few abilities available to the Mage or Cleric or Thief per day.
But, online RPGs give us access to a wide range of combat abilities - seemingly at the expense of a derth of non-combat abilities. Especially, MMORPGs.
I typically prefer using Charisma and Dexterity to avoid combat.

But, it's really not necessarily all about vertical power - horizontal power can be just as good. A variety of tools in the tool belt to overcome challenges can be jest as fun as immense power.
In MMORPGs, it's typically about gaining crazy powers to become a Superman. But, Batman can be just as fun to play - just different.

A Level 20 Mage should have enough magical armor to avoid being taken out by a Level 13 Rogue... as well as plenty of minions and warning spells.
But, that's a derail from the topic.

I want to be able to log into the game and feel like I'm progressing through an entertaining story rather than being stuck repeating the same content or the same tasks day after day. 
Typically that's going to be by gaining new skills/abilities. And that needs to happen at a reasonable pace. But, the skills don't necessarily have to be vertical in power.
New could be acquiring Ice spells to trap opponents rather than using Fireball to incinerate opponents.
New could be Turning Undead rather than destroying them via melee.
In Ashes, preferably, whatever is new still fits the roles of my class, race, religion and social organization. But, doesn't necessarily have to be an increase in power.

ArchivedUser

i'm in favor of 1-2 months but that might deter people from the game to progress so slow. Therefore 2-3 weeks

ArchivedUser

Really this is a hard survey to answer, unless we know what the level cap is going to be.  If there are only 20 levels for example, then it should take quite a bit of time, but if there are a 100 levels, then it should be pretty quick.

ArchivedUser

VoidShadow said:

i'm in favor of 1-2 months but that might deter people from the game to progress so slow. Therefore 2-3 weeks

But if its too quick, then each level will, practically, have no meaning 

• Whats the point of being at LvL 1 if some activities are meant to be done at LvL "x" ? Whats significance does Lvl 1 have, if its constantly treated as another stepping-stone with nothing noteworthy ? 
• What can I do at LvL 1 ?  
• Will LvL prevent me from doing activities ?
• How much of a Difference will being at Lvl 1 vs LvL 7 be ? Does a LvL 1 has any sort of chance of beating/ defending against Player who has a higher LvL than he/she ? If so, what sorts of options do i have
• ( in which case, I quote myself from above ... )

• Original EverQuest Leveling + RuneScape " Leveling " / Variety ... yet most of the " variety " being Unknown to the Player = the Golden Spot IMHO

Feels like a no brainier to me
But I've definitely thought of that too though 

ArchivedUser

i think the first 10 levels should come fairly quick. you want new players to get a quick feel of the game and get hooked with their time investment. afterwards, however, i agree with most where the exp needed increases exponentially. I don't want to reach cap too quick, yet i don't want to spend 1 year of 5+ hours a day to reach it either...

gear should have a meaning as you receive it. what is the use in farming materials or dungeons for crafting materials or gear while leveling if the gear you receive only stays on your character for 1 hour or a day? upgrades should feel rewarding and legitimate.

Final fantasy 11 was my first MMO, and because of that, i may be a little biased, but the work involved made me want to be good at what i did. what i didn't appreciate, even with my rose tinted nostalgia glasses- was the hours of grinding the same 3 types of monsters for hours on end. Dungeons will be nice, but running the same dungeon 100s of times for later levels will burn people out quickly. Hopefully there will be a plethora of ways you can get said experience.

Quests you can pick up to turn in after dungeons, area quests, etc. would help keep it fresher and less tedious. maybe let the quests available throughout the world be available to most people, yet the exp rewarded be relative to the level your character is?

Maybe exp can be available through other means as well? like exploring, lifeskilling, pvp and/or nodewars? in ff11, getting to that cap felt like a real accomplishment, yet in black desert and aion, it felt like such a chore to grind so much that i would get burnt out easily. especially after reaching that next level.

Hopefully, there can be a balance between the two.

ArchivedUser

To me hitting max level in about ~15 days played (in game) is reasonable. That's similar to how it was in Classic WoW and I always liked the speed of leveling in that game. So if you're casual maybe it would take ~20-30 days played instead.

Ideally id want the first couple of levels to be fairly fast and the mid point semi fast and the last levels the slowest. So if you have 50 max levels, 1-20 could be fairly fast, 20-40 it starts to slow down but it's not daunting. Then 40-50 can be the slowest part of the leveling.