They probably won't allow addons, such as damage meters. Combat log API can be used to gauge health pools to get the total HP of enemies. I remember Steven saying that he wasn't even planning to have health meters on enemies, but rather a sort of other vague health indicator. If this goes how I think it could go, a client wouldn't even need to receive much combat information, except for floating combat text. If they wanted to, they would only need to send the exact damage value of an attack to the player who had dealt the damage. This would fit in line with Steven's wants for the game.
Could the information a player receives from floating combat text lead to 3rd party software creating overlays for the game, such as an overlay containing health bars? Maybe. There have been games that have done this with things like the client side combat log. Guild Wars 2 for example has 3rd party DPS meters sharing data between users to form a whole picture. Once the total health is formed after the death of the enemy, a health bar could be produced if users of such 3rd party software have their damage dealt synced up through a server that hosts such data.
The interesting thing about the 3rd party DPS meter approach is that a person could probably spoof data to send to a server that's running the 3rd party damage meters. A person could bump their numbers up to make it appear as though they are doing better than they actually were. If there were to be no API to prove that you are authentically a specific player, a person might even be able to spoof others and send wrong data on the behalf of another to make them look weaker, if somebody really wanted to be a pooper.
This is all basically true, and what I have been saying for a while.
All it takes is floating combat feedback - or even chat window feedback - and players will have a combat tracker.
Basically, the only way to not have a combat tracker is to not give players any kind of accurate combat feedback. If you do that, you are all of a sudden playing a a game with a totally different feel to it.
Having players all connect to a server has been a thing that some combat trackers have done since at least 2008. Even in games with combat log access, it is the best way to get the most accurate figures possible. I saw a few back then that even combined voice communications on the same server.
You could look at it as there being four possible scenarios for Ashes when it goes live.
The worst is that players have absolutely no combat feedback at all. Literally nothing. This would need to be taken to the point where the only way we will know how well we are doing on an encounter is when that encounter dies.
The next worst of these is that the game has either floating combat feedback or chat window feedback. This will see players have access to fairly accurate combat trackers.
The second best is to have either log files or an API for combat trackers. This is the option I consider to be least likely.
The best option is for Intrepid to implement a combat tracker right in to the game, and place what ever restrictions they see fit on to it.
In terms of what impact each of these would have on the game... that worst option would basically require the population to retrain how to play MMO's.
In most games, if you attack a character (player or NPC) and the attack does significantly less damage than normal, then you know you are in for a hard time. Take away that feedback to players and, well you are taking away that feedback. This leaves players having no idea what is going on - and if there is a way in which players can see what is going on, that can be used as a means of introducing data in to a combat tracker.
This would be a really odd situation to be in. Ashes is a game where Intrepid want player decisions to be meaningful and important, yet without combat feedback, decisions in regards to combat, class and build are literally meaningless, as you have no way of knowing if your decision was a good one or not.
While it is technically possible to have a game with literally no combat feedback, I don't think many people would enjoy playing it.
The next option would basically result in a GW2 situation. There would be combat trackers, they would start off behind the scenes and become more and more obvious as the game ages. Chances are, eventually Intrepid would have to acknowledge them and design with them in mind - as GW2 did.
The next option is basically WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, Aion and Rift. This is a fairly wide variety of possibilities, and if this option were taken by Intrepid (which again, I consider the least likely), they would be able to chose exactly where on this spectrum they want the game to fall.
The last option, the one I want to see, is a combat tracker as a part of the game itself - with restrictions. It kills off all of the issues that have been presented so far.
If people being kicked from raid guilds due to dps meters is an issue, why don't you scrubs discerning gentlemen of skill start a new guild of all those other discerning gentlemen of skill that will be made guildless? Or is it that you know there are only a few people that suck that bad, and you know you are one of them?
If people being kicked from raid guilds due to dps meters is an issue, why don't you scrubs discerning gentlemen of skill start a new guild of all those other discerning gentlemen of skill that will be made guildless? Or is it that you know there are only a few people that suck that bad, and you know you are one of them?
This is hardly a valid argument in either direction, nor overly helpful to the general discussion.
The issue around combat trackers is one of perception. Combat trackers do not cause things that many people want to blame on them. People see very real and very major issues in MMO's, and sometimes blame combat trackers as being the root cause of it, even though that isn't the case. This has taken such a hold in some peoples mind, that even the founder and CEO of a specific MMO development studio perceives combat trackers as being the root cause of an issue that they are clearly and obviously not the root cause of - an issue that has a more specific, more logical, more definite and far more accurate root cause.
However, this perception of combat trackers is not something to be taken lightly. Just because it is obvious to most of us that these issues are not caused by combat trackers, doesn't mean that their perception in the eyes of some people is not an issue that needs to be taken seriously.
However, this is an issue of perception, not an issue of function. As such, the remedy to the issue is to alter the perception of combat trackers, nothing more.
Being toxic on the forums in defense of combat trackers doesn't really go a long way to pointing out that combat trackers are not a root cause of toxicity in MMO's in general.
So I keep seeing this thread pop up but never really read into it seems like a touchy spot for a lot of people and I'm fairly neutral about it. I read over some of the points, but not the whole thread as there is a lot, but I just wanted to add in my own experience cause why not.
So I never used trackers or logs until last year because I was always pretty casual, or at least not concerned about being the best, when it comes to MMOs. However, last year I decided I wanted to try and join some of the high end content for FFXIV with a static group.
I knew meters and such weren't allowed in game and I'm always super scared about doing anything that could get me banned, but I started to realize that it was less of a "don't use this" situation and more of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of deal. FFLogs is super popular for tracking DPS, Healing, Skill usage and timing, and a bunch of other things. When I first was introduced to it I came to find out that when I thought I was doing amazing at my rotation, I was actually about 4-5K DPS off of where I should've been in order to do the content I wanted to (which is a looooot).
My raid leader was experienced with this level of content and intentionally recruited newer raiders in order to teach and train them. He used these logs and meters not to belittle or berate how bad we were, but to show us where we could improve and how to do it. I never once felt bad about my DPS with my group or my guild when I told them how I was doing. Instead I actually only ever felt elated when I saw my numbers improving because I realized I was actually starting to get the hang of things. If my numbers ever dipped or dropped it didn't make me feel bad, but made me curious or attentive as to what changed or what I could change.
If I hadn't had those logs I think I would've been missing out on not only higher DPS, but a better general understanding of how my class worked. In a lot of the raids they have DPS checks where if you can't kill something quick enough you're insta-wiped. If no one was using meters I can guarantee I would have rage quit long before seeing the finish line because I wouldn't have known what was going wrong or where to improve.
I was actually pretty good at reading them on the fly/during the fight too and figured out different tricks we could do friggen mid-combat and when that started to help the entire group I felt like a genius. Not to mention when you start experimenting with cooldowns vs boss transitions to see how it plays out with the rest of the party and you finally find that sweet spot it's *chef's kiss* oh so perfect.
However, I've also seen the dark side of knowing other people's DPS when someone was absent and we needed a stranger to fill in. They were truly toxic a****oles and one raid day I even quit for the weekend because I hated how nasty this random stranger on the internet was making me feel about how insecure I was about how much DPS I was doing. But that's the thing about the "don't ask, don't tell" situation. They were a random stranger that we didn't invite to our voice chat so we had written evidence that they were using a meter. My leader told me later they reported the person and it made me a little happy because I'm usually not one to take action or by the time I think of it the moments passed.
Basically, I'd love to see how I'll perform in AoC, even amount of healing, as I'll most likely be going support as usual. I'd love to be able to see the nitty gritty about how I'm doing and adjust myself to be the best I can be. I think I would've probably been content not having one ever as well if I hadn't gone into the hardcore FF raids using a meter, but now that I've tasted that knowledge I think it'll be a little less sweet. Of course this won't be a problem to me for a long time at least because I'll be so busy leveling, exploring, and gathering. But come the day when I want to go hardcore into raids, dungeons or whatever I think I'd miss not being able to track myself. I'm afraid I'll be stuck using the "meta" version of a class and rotation because some youtube video somewhere says it's the right way to do things and there's not a good way to verify it one way or another. A few of the times I managed to pull off more DPS than the FF guides was because I experimented and tried different things and although the increases might not have shown up during a fight itself, they were obvious when I was looking over the actual data.
Do I understand why meters aren't allowed in this game? Of course. Completely.
Do I hope that if meters are ever invented/produced by outside sources that this turns into a don't ask, don't tell situation? That'd be nice.
So I keep seeing this thread pop up but never really read into it seems like a touchy spot for a lot of people and I'm fairly neutral about it.
This seems to me to be exactly what many of us have been saying for a few years now, over several threads.
Combat trackers in the right hands make the game far, far better. The benefits from them go well beyond people just being able to see how well they are performing.
I'd also like to point out that under the suggestion being made in this thread, that negative situation you encountered wouldn't happen, but the positive ones still would. With the suggestion being made, since that player was not from your guild, he wouldn't be able to use a combat tracker on you, and none of you would be able to use one on him either.
I do feel dps meters are beneficial to most ppl and id like to see them myself, but if there is a way to completely hide and encrypt the damage data so that it would be impossible to make one.. i kinda feel that would neat. Just because that would limit the meta gaming, it would take long time for ppl to figure out the best options.
And isnt that the point of this game, experience whole new world with everything being discovered?
Then on the other hand player feedback like damage numbers or what was that skill that killed me or did so much damage is important too.
DBM or similiar addons are big no for me tho, ruins the whole experience if you can just have everything you need to know pop in text into your face when fighting a boss
And isnt that the point of this game, experience whole new world with everything being discovered?
I'm not sure I agree with your premise, but this part here I have an immediate comment on.
The vast majority of players are not willing to "explore" when it comes to their class build. They want something that they know will function, and that they know will be competitive. Combat trackers only assist in that.
If somehow Intrepid managed to make it impossible for combat trackers to exist for Ashes (which would be a first), that wouldn't suddenly mean all of those players would suddenly go out and explore their class more - they would still go to the forums and find a build, then use it exactly as it was written.
The difference in this situation between combat trackers existing or not is in how often that build would need 5o be changed. The more accurate it can be, the less often it would need to be changed. Since players not interested in exploring class builds are not usually that keen on having to respec in to another build, the more accurate their original build is, the happier they will be.
Now, for the players that do enjoy exploring class builds and such, a game like Ashss will have a constantly evolving PvP meta. People that enjoy this kind of thing will always have a given build of a specific class that they want to counter using one of the other specific classes, so attempting to extend the initial meta for them seems pointless.
Further, those people that do enjoy working on builds, it is always much more fun doing so when you have actual accurate information to work with - information that can only come from a combat tracker (either first or third party).
So really, I'm unsure who it would benefit to attempt to stretch out any initial meta game any longer than is necessary.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Edit: on phone this forum likes to do some fuckery, sorry for bad quoting
Those who want something that works and want to be competetive will anyways swap to FotM class or pick something that they have seen works. Combat tracker or no
But the true Meta for everything wont be so cookie cutter, maybe for small scale pvp it will be easy to find but larger group comps it wont be.
If we are unsure what the actual dps/spike dmg numbers are, more build variety there will be. Ppl wont be pressured to play "the dps class"
At some point sure there might be guilds trying to min max and test combinations to speedrun or whatever but there will be more build variety since everything wont be clear to the players.
Point being we dont have to know everything, we can work with less information just as well.
Because the developers said no. They kinda have control.
If you build your own game, you can control whether meters are in it or not.
I agree with this stance in every aspect of Ashes other than combat trackers.
The reason I disagree with it here is because it isn't up to intrepid.
The developers of FFXIV and GW2 thought they had control of whether a combat tracker existed or not, but they were wrong.
A combat tracker will exist for Ashes. This is a given. There are two ways for this statement to be proven untrue - the first is to not have PvE content that is worth a damn, the second is to not give players any information at all about what they are doing in combat, so not floating damage numbers, no chat window text, no health bars and potentially, not combat animations that are unique to specific abilities. Each of these could be used to create a third party combat tracker, and when you remove them all from the game, you are left with a very, very different experience - one that I would argue most players would not enjoy.
The question here is whether Intrepid should have control of that combat tracker or not.
I personally say they should - and the only way for this to happen is for them to add it to the game themself.
If we are unsure what the actual dps/spike dmg numbers are, more build variety there will be. Ppl wont be pressured to play "the dps class"
This is deonstraibly untrue.
The one MMO that has had very little combat tracker use, Archeage, had the highest rate of cookie cutter builds of any game I have ever played.
People posted a build, others saw that it worked, people kept that build for 5 years.
Because there were no popular combat trackers, those builds were rarely challenged in terms of their effectiveness, and any time the players running one of those builds were beated in PvP, they put it down to the rock/paper/scissors effect rather than considering if their build needed to be updated.
In terms of PvE, if we get to a situation where there is "the DPS class", then we can all turn to Intrepid and ask them wtf they are doing, because that is obviously poor/lazy class design (looking at you, Blizzard).
If the use of a combat tracker results in one build being required, then all the combat tracker has done is pointed out issues in the design of the game - issues that would have gone unnoticed if not for combat trackers. This is an inherently good thing for players and for the game - and it then leaves the ball in Intrepids hands to see if they will fix it.
Knowing the actual objective truth is never a bad thing, and all combat trackers do is tell you the actual objective truth.
Seeing how WoW classic has become, I am against meters and add-ons.
I definitely do want to have a stat window that shows not just base stats, but things like my own average dps, crit, hp regen and that kind of stuff. I think that is something they already have or are working on, but that is important for me to be able to see the changes whenever I equip new gear to compare.
If we are unsure what the actual dps/spike dmg numbers are, more build variety there will be. Ppl wont be pressured to play "the dps class"
This is deonstraibly untrue.
The one MMO that has had very little combat tracker use, Archeage, had the highest rate of cookie cutter builds of any game I have ever played.
People posted a build, others saw that it worked, people kept that build for 5 years.
Because there were no popular combat trackers, those builds were rarely challenged in terms of their effectiveness, and any time the players running one of those builds were beated in PvP, they put it down to the rock/paper/scissors effect rather than considering if their build needed to be updated.
In terms of PvE, if we get to a situation where there is "the DPS class", then we can all turn to Intrepid and ask them wtf they are doing, because that is obviously poor/lazy class design (looking at you, Blizzard).
If the use of a combat tracker results in one build being required, then all the combat tracker has done is pointed out issues in the design of the game - issues that would have gone unnoticed if not for combat trackers. This is an inherently good thing for players and for the game - and it then leaves the ball in Intrepids hands to see if they will fix it.
Knowing the actual objective truth is never a bad thing, and all combat trackers do is tell you the actual objective truth.
it could go the other way around too, im not sure your example of archeage can be hold as a proof. In gw2 wvw ive made countless builds that "work" when looking at the dps they output but in reality it doesnt.
Good example from gw2: Damage over time builds tend to do more dmg than power builds, but if meta is more sustain and dot removal, that build could perform on the metrics really well but in reality it doesnt work.
This can be learned by experience throught gameplay and not looking at the numbers.
So ofc combat trackers can and will help speeding up the conclusion but it is not required.
I'm fairly sure we will have some sort of dmg meter which is fine for me but all im saying we can work without it.
So ofc combat trackers can and will help speeding up the conclusion but it is not required.
I'm fairly sure we will have some sort of dmg meter which is fine for me but all im saying we can work without it.
We absolutely will have a combat tracker for Ashes - that is essentially a given at this point and isn't really what the debate is about.
The debate is about whether the combat trackers we have should be given the green light by Intrepid or not, and whether Intrepid themself should implement the combat tracker that we are absolutely going to have, so that they can maintain control over it.
As to your point about damage over time builds- a combat tracker may have told you that the build should be good, but a combat tracker also told you that it wasn't. This means that having a combat tracker speeds up the iterating that goes in to always being on the edge of a games meta, as I said above.
So again, a combat tracker means people not wanting to keep up with the meta can settle on a good build earlier, making them happier, and people that like to stay on the edge of the meta (or who like to push that edge) will be able to iterate faster, keeping that edge on the move even more, making them happier.
Technically speaking, we could do without a combat tracker in terms of the PvP meta - but I don't see who that would help. To me, all groups end up better off with a combat tracker than without.
Seeing how WoW classic has become, I am against meters and add-ons.
I definitely do want to have a stat window that shows not just base stats, but things like my own average dps, crit, hp regen and that kind of stuff. I think that is something they already have or are working on, but that is important for me to be able to see the changes whenever I equip new gear to compare.
The WoW type of combat tracker is completely out of the question for Ashes. That would require opening up specific pieces of information in an API, which Intrepid have specifically stated they won't do.
Seeing how WoW classic has become, I am against meters and add-ons.
I definitely do want to have a stat window that shows not just base stats, but things like my own average dps, crit, hp regen and that kind of stuff. I think that is something they already have or are working on, but that is important for me to be able to see the changes whenever I equip new gear to compare.
The WoW type of combat tracker is completely out of the question for Ashes. That would require opening up specific pieces of information in an API, which Intrepid have specifically stated they won't do.
To be more specific, I am against meters because of the culture it has created in WoW. Even things like Discord to create premades for everything has ruined a lot of the original elements people enjoyed about the game.
Meters force everyone to spend half their time gathering world buffs just blow through a dungeon in an hour and then logging off. It just isn't fun when everyone is obsessed over their pars instead of the execution of the game mechanics (people ignoring their aggro or ignoring the raid lead's calls just for extra dps).
I agree there are other problems like the information APIs might gather that are not part of Intrepid. Definitely not something I want to see. I think that is just a gate that will open it up to bots and more automated software to negatively impact the game.
Seeing how WoW classic has become, I am against meters and add-ons.
I definitely do want to have a stat window that shows not just base stats, but things like my own average dps, crit, hp regen and that kind of stuff. I think that is something they already have or are working on, but that is important for me to be able to see the changes whenever I equip new gear to compare.
The WoW type of combat tracker is completely out of the question for Ashes. That would require opening up specific pieces of information in an API, which Intrepid have specifically stated they won't do.
To be more specific, I am against meters because of the culture it has created in WoW. Even things like Discord to create premades for everything has ruined a lot of the original elements people enjoyed about the game.
Meters force everyone to spend half their time gathering world buffs just blow through a dungeon in an hour and then logging off. It just isn't fun when everyone is obsessed over their pars instead of the execution of the game mechanics (people ignoring their aggro or ignoring the raid lead's calls just for extra dps).
I agree there are other problems like the information APIs might gather that are not part of Intrepid. Definitely not something I want to see. I think that is just a gate that will open it up to bots and more automated software to negatively impact the game.
Efficiency is a perfectly acceptable thing to want. You aren’t required to group with those who are focused on maximum efficiency.
The issues in WoW generally come from the instant queue, which means no punishment for being a dick. When you group manually, everyone in the group has agreed to make concessions in some way. You’ll have to wait on players to get on the right characters, get the right gear, travel to the dungeon, get buffs ahead of time. The group agrees to do these things to benefit the group’s goal.
If your goal is different, you’re always able to gather friends to run it without optimized buffs or optimized gear. It’s up to you to find like minded players.
I just think its going to further separate good players from bad players if we don't have meters. I pug a lot and there are toxic players even without them. Not having them because it creates toxic players is a very weak argument.
Ive been in elitest groups that have kicked for having low dps. There is a point to it sometimes that some people are ready for the content they are in and some people are not so why hold everyone back for the sake of a few players that are causing wipes. People watching parses and not mechanics and die get kicked as well.
Also saying it will turn into classic wow is a bad argument as well. People have been optimizing vanilla for so long on private servers. The reason it is bad is because its getting no updates. The game is pretty much set in stone. No nerfs to buffs or potions. Every bit of value you can get is put out there on the internet. So people know what to play, how to play it, what all to use, what to spend gold on, and it will never change. Ashes will be updating nerfing classes, nerfing specs, having a lot of new items to spend gold on, and buffs. So people can play what they want and most guilds will accept them because meta today might be the worst class tomorrow. I would never play a live character like a character from classic wow.
The real question is this. How will players now weed out bad players from good? With meters they can see them and if necessary weed them out easily. Now its going to be all about what you are wearing before you enter so you dont get bad dps and if they are meta spec. Which is wrong I feel. Just know there will never be those good old days where you can be absolutely terrible and no one will care about it (in PUG environments anyway).
To be more specific, I am against meters because of the culture it has created in WoW.
Combat trackers didn't cause the culture WoW has, not needing to maintain in game relationships did.
When you are in a situation where you need others to group up with you to progress, you are restricted to players on one server, and those players can easily refuse to group with you, the culture of a game changes.
Meters force everyone to spend half their time gathering world buffs just blow through a dungeon in an hour and then logging off.
Sounds to me like this is more a fault of those buffs.
If meters didn't exist but the buffs did, people would still want to get those buffs. They don't need to know exactly how much they improve things to know that they want them. If the buffs didn't exist but the meters did, then obviously people wouldn't be spending all of that time getting those buffs.
I mean, I don't want to spend half my time running around getting world buffs either, but that has nothing inherently to do with combat trackers.
I can see why someone would perhaps look at a specific situation and blame a combat tracker. I mean, if you go from just playing somewhat casually to then joining a guild that play for at least an amount of efficiency, it is reasonable to assume that this could be the first real use of combat trackers you would see, as well as the first time you have felt the need to get those buffs. It is then easy to see how someone could say that it is the combat tracker that makes people feel the need to get these buffs.
I'm not saying this is what I think has happened in your situation, as I am sure there are many other scenarios in which that same opinion would be perfectly logically formed.
In reality though, both the use of combat trackers and the desire to make use of buffs are both results of being among players that are all about efficiency. Rather than the need to get the buffs being a result of the combat trackers that are being used, both the fact that these people are using combat trackers and the fact that they want you to get the buffs are results of these people wanting efficiency.
It is a perfectly logical misconception to hold, I just hope that in pointing out that an efficiency focused group would want those buffs regardless of a combat trackers existence is enough to show you that while there is some ass
So ofc combat trackers can and will help speeding up the conclusion but it is not required.
I'm fairly sure we will have some sort of dmg meter which is fine for me but all im saying we can work without it.
We absolutely will have a combat tracker for Ashes - that is essentially a given at this point and isn't really what the debate is about.
The debate is about whether the combat trackers we have should be given the green light by Intrepid or not, and whether Intrepid themself should implement the combat tracker that we are absolutely going to have, so that they can maintain control over it.
As to your point about damage over time builds- a combat tracker may have told you that the build should be good, but a combat tracker also told you that it wasn't. This means that having a combat tracker speeds up the iterating that goes in to always being on the edge of a games meta, as I said above.
So again, a combat tracker means people not wanting to keep up with the meta can settle on a good build earlier, making them happier, and people that like to stay on the edge of the meta (or who like to push that edge) will be able to iterate faster, keeping that edge on the move even more, making them happier.
Technically speaking, we could do without a combat tracker in terms of the PvP meta - but I don't see who that would help. To me, all groups end up better off with a combat tracker than without.
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
Well my experience is limited only to FFXIV and its meters, but the DPS choices usually weren't limited by which classes did the highest DPS, but rather which role needed to be filled (magic/melee,ranged DPS, healer, or tank). I primarily played a "support" ranged DPS which inherently did way less DPS than other pure DPS classes because my role was not only pump out damage, but also boost the damage of my party. People of course had their own preferences or biases about which classes they liked to have in their group the best, but for the most part any class, played well, could be used successfully in the content.
This seems to be more about how well the games classes are defined. How unique the classes are and how well everything synergies. Trackers merely help people better understand the classes they want to play/think is neat. Of course there will be people who pick a class based off the data from a tracker, but then that means they want to play that class.
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
People not being able to pick the build they want (within reason) is not the fault of the combat trackers.
What combat trackers have done in this situation is aimed a light right at the lack of balance that a given class/game has. If a class is balanced, there should never be a case where there is 'the build', there should always be multiple builds.
No one should ever be able to say the words 'the build' in regards to any class in an MMO.
In a game like Ashes, where selecting your secondary class provides you with the flavor/theme/concept of your class, if one of those is not viable, then that is a fault of the class design, not of the combat tracker that gave us the information to be able to state that the class design is at fault.
If you have objective data that points to something not working as it should, the fix for that is *NEVER* to remove the ability to obtain objective data - which is kind of what you are suggesting here. If you have objective data that points out an issue, then everyone involved should be thankful for that objective data, and the people responsible should fix the issue at hand.
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
Well my experience is limited only to FFXIV and its meters, but the DPS choices usually weren't limited by which classes did the highest DPS, but rather which role needed to be filled (magic/melee,ranged DPS, healer, or tank). I primarily played a "support" ranged DPS which inherently did way less DPS than other pure DPS classes because my role was not only pump out damage, but also boost the damage of my party. People of course had their own preferences or biases about which classes they liked to have in their group the best, but for the most part any class, played well, could be used successfully in the content.
This seems to be more about how well the games classes are defined. How unique the classes are and how well everything synergies. Trackers merely help people better understand the classes they want to play/think is neat. Of course there will be people who pick a class based off the data from a tracker, but then that means they want to play that class.
i see this as something that could happen even without combat tracker. And that is my point, we really dont need to know everything to still enjoy the game
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
People not being able to pick the build they want (within reason) is not the fault of the combat trackers.
What combat trackers have done in this situation is aimed a light right at the lack of balance that a given class/game has. If a class is balanced, there should never be a case where there is 'the build', there should always be multiple builds.
No one should ever be able to say the words 'the build' in regards to any class in an MMO.
In a game like Ashes, where selecting your secondary class provides you with the flavor/theme/concept of your class, if one of those is not viable, then that is a fault of the class design, not of the combat tracker that gave us the information to be able to state that the class design is at fault.
If you have objective data that points to something not working as it should, the fix for that is *NEVER* to remove the ability to obtain objective data - which is kind of what you are suggesting here. If you have objective data that points out an issue, then everyone involved should be thankful for that objective data, and the people responsible should fix the issue at hand.
Well there is usually the prefered builds in my experience, which has nothing to do with combat tracker. Balance on the other hand is not in our hands, OP builds would still be detected and even if we dont have all the info, devs do.
I feel like my point is not clear to you or you keep arguing just for arguments sake
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
People not being able to pick the build they want (within reason) is not the fault of the combat trackers.
What combat trackers have done in this situation is aimed a light right at the lack of balance that a given class/game has. If a class is balanced, there should never be a case where there is 'the build', there should always be multiple builds.
No one should ever be able to say the words 'the build' in regards to any class in an MMO.
In a game like Ashes, where selecting your secondary class provides you with the flavor/theme/concept of your class, if one of those is not viable, then that is a fault of the class design, not of the combat tracker that gave us the information to be able to state that the class design is at fault.
If you have objective data that points to something not working as it should, the fix for that is *NEVER* to remove the ability to obtain objective data - which is kind of what you are suggesting here. If you have objective data that points out an issue, then everyone involved should be thankful for that objective data, and the people responsible should fix the issue at hand.
Well there is usually the prefered builds in my experience, which has nothing to do with combat tracker. Balance on the other hand is not in our hands, OP builds would still be detected and even if we dont have all the info, devs do.
I feel like my point is not clear to you or you keep arguing just for arguments sake
Devs have neither the time nor the resources to do the theory crafting that players do. They genuinely are not capable of testing every combination to the degree players are.
What I’ve always seen from balancing is players point out something feels too strong or too weak and why (usually with numbers to back it up), with that feedback, devs take time to test those specific things and make adjustments if they’re needed. Without players giving data, devs wouldn’t magically find it. They don’t test every gear combo and every ability synergy besides for functionality.
They’ll catch huge bugs that might make something deal 500x the damage it’s supposed to. But if the advertised damage is 50 damage lower than what it should be, do you really think they’ll catch that without a player pointing it out?
Well there is usually the prefered builds in my experience, which has nothing to do with combat tracker.
If by preferred builds you mean ones that the developers have put in the game as a suggestion to players - these are actually quite rare, and I've yet to see a game launch with them.
This type of thing is usually added to the game several years after launch in order to assist potential new players in getting in to the game, and they are usually simply taken from builds that players make popular.
The other thing you could be talking about here are player posted builds - usually posted on the games forums.
The thing here is, in both situations, combat trackers were used.
Players don't usually post class builds unless they are confident that they actually work well, and that there aren't obvious simple improvements that can be made to the build (ie, moving one point to a different ability being always better). Since people are actually putting their name (or forum identity) on these builds, they don't want to embarrase themselves.
As such, these builds are ALWAYS built with the aid of a combat tracker.
Since the builds that developers occasionally add to the game as a suggestion for players are themselves based on builds that players use, and since the builds that players use are usually builds that players have posted as per the above, even the builds that developers add in to the game as a suggestion for new players to use do infact originate from players who used combat trackers.
As to your comment about balance being in developers hands... I mean, ultimately you are correct, but you are missing out a major part of the picture.
If you've played MMO's much, you'll notice that arnod 2 or 3 months after every alteration or addition to a class, or after a new encounter is added, the developers will push through a balance adjustment patch for it. These patches are almost exclusively results of player feedback that players obtain via combat trackers (not surprisingly, Archeage had very few balance patches like this, and also had very poorly balanced classes).
Most games have 2 or 3 developers at the most that work on the combat system - and even then it is usually only a part of what they do. They simply don't have the time to sit there and sift through the piles of data that is needed to find some of the imbalances in a complex game - but us players absolutely do have the time to do that, and history shows quite clearly that we will spend that time quite happily.
To add more complexity to that, the people responsible for combat for one content cycle may not be the same as the people responsible for it in the next, or the one after that. Staff move around, get new jobs, get promotions, move to other areas of game development - but us players stay the same. It doesn't take much time post launch for any MMO to get to the point where there are hundreds of players that know the games combat systems better than anyone working for the game developer.
Smart developers make use of this fact.
Point is, if a specific player of an MMO wants balance more than anything else in an MMO, then that player should be on board with any player that wants it having access to as much combat information as is possible to gather - as it is players that are willing to assist developers having access to this data actually allows the developers to be able to see the issues in balance that they simply wouldn't have the time or nuanced understanding of specific classes to actually see.
I feel like my point is not clear to you or you keep arguing just for arguments sake
I'll be honest, if you do have a clear and specific point, then no, it is not clear at all to me. Your point seems to mostly be muddled up with you saying there are some things that you can still do with or without a combat tracker, but you seem to be completely ignoring the things that you can't do if you don't have a one - which really are the only things that matter in a discussion about the point of a combat tracker.
If this is what you feel, then take a step back and reiterate your point right from the very start. Don't quote any other posts (except maybe this so people know that is what you are doing), and don't attempt to answer any questions or rebutt any points made, simply reiterate what your point is if you feel it has not been made as well as you would like.
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This is all basically true, and what I have been saying for a while.
All it takes is floating combat feedback - or even chat window feedback - and players will have a combat tracker.
Basically, the only way to not have a combat tracker is to not give players any kind of accurate combat feedback. If you do that, you are all of a sudden playing a a game with a totally different feel to it.
Having players all connect to a server has been a thing that some combat trackers have done since at least 2008. Even in games with combat log access, it is the best way to get the most accurate figures possible. I saw a few back then that even combined voice communications on the same server.
You could look at it as there being four possible scenarios for Ashes when it goes live.
The worst is that players have absolutely no combat feedback at all. Literally nothing. This would need to be taken to the point where the only way we will know how well we are doing on an encounter is when that encounter dies.
The next worst of these is that the game has either floating combat feedback or chat window feedback. This will see players have access to fairly accurate combat trackers.
The second best is to have either log files or an API for combat trackers. This is the option I consider to be least likely.
The best option is for Intrepid to implement a combat tracker right in to the game, and place what ever restrictions they see fit on to it.
In terms of what impact each of these would have on the game... that worst option would basically require the population to retrain how to play MMO's.
In most games, if you attack a character (player or NPC) and the attack does significantly less damage than normal, then you know you are in for a hard time. Take away that feedback to players and, well you are taking away that feedback. This leaves players having no idea what is going on - and if there is a way in which players can see what is going on, that can be used as a means of introducing data in to a combat tracker.
This would be a really odd situation to be in. Ashes is a game where Intrepid want player decisions to be meaningful and important, yet without combat feedback, decisions in regards to combat, class and build are literally meaningless, as you have no way of knowing if your decision was a good one or not.
While it is technically possible to have a game with literally no combat feedback, I don't think many people would enjoy playing it.
The next option would basically result in a GW2 situation. There would be combat trackers, they would start off behind the scenes and become more and more obvious as the game ages. Chances are, eventually Intrepid would have to acknowledge them and design with them in mind - as GW2 did.
The next option is basically WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, Aion and Rift. This is a fairly wide variety of possibilities, and if this option were taken by Intrepid (which again, I consider the least likely), they would be able to chose exactly where on this spectrum they want the game to fall.
The last option, the one I want to see, is a combat tracker as a part of the game itself - with restrictions. It kills off all of the issues that have been presented so far.
This is hardly a valid argument in either direction, nor overly helpful to the general discussion.
The issue around combat trackers is one of perception. Combat trackers do not cause things that many people want to blame on them. People see very real and very major issues in MMO's, and sometimes blame combat trackers as being the root cause of it, even though that isn't the case. This has taken such a hold in some peoples mind, that even the founder and CEO of a specific MMO development studio perceives combat trackers as being the root cause of an issue that they are clearly and obviously not the root cause of - an issue that has a more specific, more logical, more definite and far more accurate root cause.
However, this perception of combat trackers is not something to be taken lightly. Just because it is obvious to most of us that these issues are not caused by combat trackers, doesn't mean that their perception in the eyes of some people is not an issue that needs to be taken seriously.
However, this is an issue of perception, not an issue of function. As such, the remedy to the issue is to alter the perception of combat trackers, nothing more.
Being toxic on the forums in defense of combat trackers doesn't really go a long way to pointing out that combat trackers are not a root cause of toxicity in MMO's in general.
So I never used trackers or logs until last year because I was always pretty casual, or at least not concerned about being the best, when it comes to MMOs. However, last year I decided I wanted to try and join some of the high end content for FFXIV with a static group.
I knew meters and such weren't allowed in game and I'm always super scared about doing anything that could get me banned, but I started to realize that it was less of a "don't use this" situation and more of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of deal. FFLogs is super popular for tracking DPS, Healing, Skill usage and timing, and a bunch of other things. When I first was introduced to it I came to find out that when I thought I was doing amazing at my rotation, I was actually about 4-5K DPS off of where I should've been in order to do the content I wanted to (which is a looooot).
My raid leader was experienced with this level of content and intentionally recruited newer raiders in order to teach and train them. He used these logs and meters not to belittle or berate how bad we were, but to show us where we could improve and how to do it. I never once felt bad about my DPS with my group or my guild when I told them how I was doing. Instead I actually only ever felt elated when I saw my numbers improving because I realized I was actually starting to get the hang of things. If my numbers ever dipped or dropped it didn't make me feel bad, but made me curious or attentive as to what changed or what I could change.
If I hadn't had those logs I think I would've been missing out on not only higher DPS, but a better general understanding of how my class worked. In a lot of the raids they have DPS checks where if you can't kill something quick enough you're insta-wiped. If no one was using meters I can guarantee I would have rage quit long before seeing the finish line because I wouldn't have known what was going wrong or where to improve.
I was actually pretty good at reading them on the fly/during the fight too and figured out different tricks we could do friggen mid-combat and when that started to help the entire group I felt like a genius. Not to mention when you start experimenting with cooldowns vs boss transitions to see how it plays out with the rest of the party and you finally find that sweet spot it's *chef's kiss* oh so perfect.
However, I've also seen the dark side of knowing other people's DPS when someone was absent and we needed a stranger to fill in. They were truly toxic a****oles and one raid day I even quit for the weekend because I hated how nasty this random stranger on the internet was making me feel about how insecure I was about how much DPS I was doing. But that's the thing about the "don't ask, don't tell" situation. They were a random stranger that we didn't invite to our voice chat so we had written evidence that they were using a meter. My leader told me later they reported the person and it made me a little happy because I'm usually not one to take action or by the time I think of it the moments passed.
Basically, I'd love to see how I'll perform in AoC, even amount of healing, as I'll most likely be going support as usual. I'd love to be able to see the nitty gritty about how I'm doing and adjust myself to be the best I can be. I think I would've probably been content not having one ever as well if I hadn't gone into the hardcore FF raids using a meter, but now that I've tasted that knowledge I think it'll be a little less sweet. Of course this won't be a problem to me for a long time at least because I'll be so busy leveling, exploring, and gathering. But come the day when I want to go hardcore into raids, dungeons or whatever I think I'd miss not being able to track myself. I'm afraid I'll be stuck using the "meta" version of a class and rotation because some youtube video somewhere says it's the right way to do things and there's not a good way to verify it one way or another. A few of the times I managed to pull off more DPS than the FF guides was because I experimented and tried different things and although the increases might not have shown up during a fight itself, they were obvious when I was looking over the actual data.
Do I understand why meters aren't allowed in this game? Of course. Completely.
Do I hope that if meters are ever invented/produced by outside sources that this turns into a don't ask, don't tell situation? That'd be nice.
Combat trackers in the right hands make the game far, far better. The benefits from them go well beyond people just being able to see how well they are performing.
I'd also like to point out that under the suggestion being made in this thread, that negative situation you encountered wouldn't happen, but the positive ones still would. With the suggestion being made, since that player was not from your guild, he wouldn't be able to use a combat tracker on you, and none of you would be able to use one on him either.
But what about because yes?
And isnt that the point of this game, experience whole new world with everything being discovered?
Then on the other hand player feedback like damage numbers or what was that skill that killed me or did so much damage is important too.
DBM or similiar addons are big no for me tho, ruins the whole experience if you can just have everything you need to know pop in text into your face when fighting a boss
The vast majority of players are not willing to "explore" when it comes to their class build. They want something that they know will function, and that they know will be competitive. Combat trackers only assist in that.
If somehow Intrepid managed to make it impossible for combat trackers to exist for Ashes (which would be a first), that wouldn't suddenly mean all of those players would suddenly go out and explore their class more - they would still go to the forums and find a build, then use it exactly as it was written.
The difference in this situation between combat trackers existing or not is in how often that build would need 5o be changed. The more accurate it can be, the less often it would need to be changed. Since players not interested in exploring class builds are not usually that keen on having to respec in to another build, the more accurate their original build is, the happier they will be.
Now, for the players that do enjoy exploring class builds and such, a game like Ashss will have a constantly evolving PvP meta. People that enjoy this kind of thing will always have a given build of a specific class that they want to counter using one of the other specific classes, so attempting to extend the initial meta for them seems pointless.
Further, those people that do enjoy working on builds, it is always much more fun doing so when you have actual accurate information to work with - information that can only come from a combat tracker (either first or third party).
So really, I'm unsure who it would benefit to attempt to stretch out any initial meta game any longer than is necessary.
Because the developers said no. They kinda have control.
If you build your own game, you can control whether meters are in it or not.
Those who want something that works and want to be competetive will anyways swap to FotM class or pick something that they have seen works. Combat tracker or no
But the true Meta for everything wont be so cookie cutter, maybe for small scale pvp it will be easy to find but larger group comps it wont be.
If we are unsure what the actual dps/spike dmg numbers are, more build variety there will be. Ppl wont be pressured to play "the dps class"
At some point sure there might be guilds trying to min max and test combinations to speedrun or whatever but there will be more build variety since everything wont be clear to the players.
Point being we dont have to know everything, we can work with less information just as well.
I agree with this stance in every aspect of Ashes other than combat trackers.
The reason I disagree with it here is because it isn't up to intrepid.
The developers of FFXIV and GW2 thought they had control of whether a combat tracker existed or not, but they were wrong.
A combat tracker will exist for Ashes. This is a given. There are two ways for this statement to be proven untrue - the first is to not have PvE content that is worth a damn, the second is to not give players any information at all about what they are doing in combat, so not floating damage numbers, no chat window text, no health bars and potentially, not combat animations that are unique to specific abilities. Each of these could be used to create a third party combat tracker, and when you remove them all from the game, you are left with a very, very different experience - one that I would argue most players would not enjoy.
The question here is whether Intrepid should have control of that combat tracker or not.
I personally say they should - and the only way for this to happen is for them to add it to the game themself.
The one MMO that has had very little combat tracker use, Archeage, had the highest rate of cookie cutter builds of any game I have ever played.
People posted a build, others saw that it worked, people kept that build for 5 years.
Because there were no popular combat trackers, those builds were rarely challenged in terms of their effectiveness, and any time the players running one of those builds were beated in PvP, they put it down to the rock/paper/scissors effect rather than considering if their build needed to be updated.
In terms of PvE, if we get to a situation where there is "the DPS class", then we can all turn to Intrepid and ask them wtf they are doing, because that is obviously poor/lazy class design (looking at you, Blizzard).
If the use of a combat tracker results in one build being required, then all the combat tracker has done is pointed out issues in the design of the game - issues that would have gone unnoticed if not for combat trackers. This is an inherently good thing for players and for the game - and it then leaves the ball in Intrepids hands to see if they will fix it.
Knowing the actual objective truth is never a bad thing, and all combat trackers do is tell you the actual objective truth.
I definitely do want to have a stat window that shows not just base stats, but things like my own average dps, crit, hp regen and that kind of stuff. I think that is something they already have or are working on, but that is important for me to be able to see the changes whenever I equip new gear to compare.
it could go the other way around too, im not sure your example of archeage can be hold as a proof. In gw2 wvw ive made countless builds that "work" when looking at the dps they output but in reality it doesnt.
Good example from gw2: Damage over time builds tend to do more dmg than power builds, but if meta is more sustain and dot removal, that build could perform on the metrics really well but in reality it doesnt work.
This can be learned by experience throught gameplay and not looking at the numbers.
So ofc combat trackers can and will help speeding up the conclusion but it is not required.
I'm fairly sure we will have some sort of dmg meter which is fine for me but all im saying we can work without it.
The debate is about whether the combat trackers we have should be given the green light by Intrepid or not, and whether Intrepid themself should implement the combat tracker that we are absolutely going to have, so that they can maintain control over it.
As to your point about damage over time builds- a combat tracker may have told you that the build should be good, but a combat tracker also told you that it wasn't. This means that having a combat tracker speeds up the iterating that goes in to always being on the edge of a games meta, as I said above.
So again, a combat tracker means people not wanting to keep up with the meta can settle on a good build earlier, making them happier, and people that like to stay on the edge of the meta (or who like to push that edge) will be able to iterate faster, keeping that edge on the move even more, making them happier.
Technically speaking, we could do without a combat tracker in terms of the PvP meta - but I don't see who that would help. To me, all groups end up better off with a combat tracker than without.
The WoW type of combat tracker is completely out of the question for Ashes. That would require opening up specific pieces of information in an API, which Intrepid have specifically stated they won't do.
To be more specific, I am against meters because of the culture it has created in WoW. Even things like Discord to create premades for everything has ruined a lot of the original elements people enjoyed about the game.
Meters force everyone to spend half their time gathering world buffs just blow through a dungeon in an hour and then logging off. It just isn't fun when everyone is obsessed over their pars instead of the execution of the game mechanics (people ignoring their aggro or ignoring the raid lead's calls just for extra dps).
I agree there are other problems like the information APIs might gather that are not part of Intrepid. Definitely not something I want to see. I think that is just a gate that will open it up to bots and more automated software to negatively impact the game.
Efficiency is a perfectly acceptable thing to want. You aren’t required to group with those who are focused on maximum efficiency.
The issues in WoW generally come from the instant queue, which means no punishment for being a dick. When you group manually, everyone in the group has agreed to make concessions in some way. You’ll have to wait on players to get on the right characters, get the right gear, travel to the dungeon, get buffs ahead of time. The group agrees to do these things to benefit the group’s goal.
If your goal is different, you’re always able to gather friends to run it without optimized buffs or optimized gear. It’s up to you to find like minded players.
Ive been in elitest groups that have kicked for having low dps. There is a point to it sometimes that some people are ready for the content they are in and some people are not so why hold everyone back for the sake of a few players that are causing wipes. People watching parses and not mechanics and die get kicked as well.
Also saying it will turn into classic wow is a bad argument as well. People have been optimizing vanilla for so long on private servers. The reason it is bad is because its getting no updates. The game is pretty much set in stone. No nerfs to buffs or potions. Every bit of value you can get is put out there on the internet. So people know what to play, how to play it, what all to use, what to spend gold on, and it will never change. Ashes will be updating nerfing classes, nerfing specs, having a lot of new items to spend gold on, and buffs. So people can play what they want and most guilds will accept them because meta today might be the worst class tomorrow. I would never play a live character like a character from classic wow.
The real question is this. How will players now weed out bad players from good? With meters they can see them and if necessary weed them out easily. Now its going to be all about what you are wearing before you enter so you dont get bad dps and if they are meta spec. Which is wrong I feel. Just know there will never be those good old days where you can be absolutely terrible and no one will care about it (in PUG environments anyway).
Combat trackers didn't cause the culture WoW has, not needing to maintain in game relationships did.
When you are in a situation where you need others to group up with you to progress, you are restricted to players on one server, and those players can easily refuse to group with you, the culture of a game changes.
Sounds to me like this is more a fault of those buffs.
If meters didn't exist but the buffs did, people would still want to get those buffs. They don't need to know exactly how much they improve things to know that they want them. If the buffs didn't exist but the meters did, then obviously people wouldn't be spending all of that time getting those buffs.
I mean, I don't want to spend half my time running around getting world buffs either, but that has nothing inherently to do with combat trackers.
I can see why someone would perhaps look at a specific situation and blame a combat tracker. I mean, if you go from just playing somewhat casually to then joining a guild that play for at least an amount of efficiency, it is reasonable to assume that this could be the first real use of combat trackers you would see, as well as the first time you have felt the need to get those buffs. It is then easy to see how someone could say that it is the combat tracker that makes people feel the need to get these buffs.
I'm not saying this is what I think has happened in your situation, as I am sure there are many other scenarios in which that same opinion would be perfectly logically formed.
In reality though, both the use of combat trackers and the desire to make use of buffs are both results of being among players that are all about efficiency. Rather than the need to get the buffs being a result of the combat trackers that are being used, both the fact that these people are using combat trackers and the fact that they want you to get the buffs are results of these people wanting efficiency.
It is a perfectly logical misconception to hold, I just hope that in pointing out that an efficiency focused group would want those buffs regardless of a combat trackers existence is enough to show you that while there is some ass
i was debating that we dont need combat trackers and we can enjoy the game without them. As i see it without all the knowledge ppl would be more encouraged to play what they feel is neat consept instead of which class performs the best on the meters
Well my experience is limited only to FFXIV and its meters, but the DPS choices usually weren't limited by which classes did the highest DPS, but rather which role needed to be filled (magic/melee,ranged DPS, healer, or tank). I primarily played a "support" ranged DPS which inherently did way less DPS than other pure DPS classes because my role was not only pump out damage, but also boost the damage of my party. People of course had their own preferences or biases about which classes they liked to have in their group the best, but for the most part any class, played well, could be used successfully in the content.
This seems to be more about how well the games classes are defined. How unique the classes are and how well everything synergies. Trackers merely help people better understand the classes they want to play/think is neat. Of course there will be people who pick a class based off the data from a tracker, but then that means they want to play that class.
What combat trackers have done in this situation is aimed a light right at the lack of balance that a given class/game has. If a class is balanced, there should never be a case where there is 'the build', there should always be multiple builds.
No one should ever be able to say the words 'the build' in regards to any class in an MMO.
In a game like Ashes, where selecting your secondary class provides you with the flavor/theme/concept of your class, if one of those is not viable, then that is a fault of the class design, not of the combat tracker that gave us the information to be able to state that the class design is at fault.
If you have objective data that points to something not working as it should, the fix for that is *NEVER* to remove the ability to obtain objective data - which is kind of what you are suggesting here. If you have objective data that points out an issue, then everyone involved should be thankful for that objective data, and the people responsible should fix the issue at hand.
i see this as something that could happen even without combat tracker. And that is my point, we really dont need to know everything to still enjoy the game
Well there is usually the prefered builds in my experience, which has nothing to do with combat tracker. Balance on the other hand is not in our hands, OP builds would still be detected and even if we dont have all the info, devs do.
I feel like my point is not clear to you or you keep arguing just for arguments sake
Devs have neither the time nor the resources to do the theory crafting that players do. They genuinely are not capable of testing every combination to the degree players are.
What I’ve always seen from balancing is players point out something feels too strong or too weak and why (usually with numbers to back it up), with that feedback, devs take time to test those specific things and make adjustments if they’re needed. Without players giving data, devs wouldn’t magically find it. They don’t test every gear combo and every ability synergy besides for functionality.
They’ll catch huge bugs that might make something deal 500x the damage it’s supposed to. But if the advertised damage is 50 damage lower than what it should be, do you really think they’ll catch that without a player pointing it out?
This type of thing is usually added to the game several years after launch in order to assist potential new players in getting in to the game, and they are usually simply taken from builds that players make popular.
The other thing you could be talking about here are player posted builds - usually posted on the games forums.
The thing here is, in both situations, combat trackers were used.
Players don't usually post class builds unless they are confident that they actually work well, and that there aren't obvious simple improvements that can be made to the build (ie, moving one point to a different ability being always better). Since people are actually putting their name (or forum identity) on these builds, they don't want to embarrase themselves.
As such, these builds are ALWAYS built with the aid of a combat tracker.
Since the builds that developers occasionally add to the game as a suggestion for players are themselves based on builds that players use, and since the builds that players use are usually builds that players have posted as per the above, even the builds that developers add in to the game as a suggestion for new players to use do infact originate from players who used combat trackers.
As to your comment about balance being in developers hands... I mean, ultimately you are correct, but you are missing out a major part of the picture.
If you've played MMO's much, you'll notice that arnod 2 or 3 months after every alteration or addition to a class, or after a new encounter is added, the developers will push through a balance adjustment patch for it. These patches are almost exclusively results of player feedback that players obtain via combat trackers (not surprisingly, Archeage had very few balance patches like this, and also had very poorly balanced classes).
Most games have 2 or 3 developers at the most that work on the combat system - and even then it is usually only a part of what they do. They simply don't have the time to sit there and sift through the piles of data that is needed to find some of the imbalances in a complex game - but us players absolutely do have the time to do that, and history shows quite clearly that we will spend that time quite happily.
To add more complexity to that, the people responsible for combat for one content cycle may not be the same as the people responsible for it in the next, or the one after that. Staff move around, get new jobs, get promotions, move to other areas of game development - but us players stay the same. It doesn't take much time post launch for any MMO to get to the point where there are hundreds of players that know the games combat systems better than anyone working for the game developer.
Smart developers make use of this fact.
Point is, if a specific player of an MMO wants balance more than anything else in an MMO, then that player should be on board with any player that wants it having access to as much combat information as is possible to gather - as it is players that are willing to assist developers having access to this data actually allows the developers to be able to see the issues in balance that they simply wouldn't have the time or nuanced understanding of specific classes to actually see. I'll be honest, if you do have a clear and specific point, then no, it is not clear at all to me. Your point seems to mostly be muddled up with you saying there are some things that you can still do with or without a combat tracker, but you seem to be completely ignoring the things that you can't do if you don't have a one - which really are the only things that matter in a discussion about the point of a combat tracker.
If this is what you feel, then take a step back and reiterate your point right from the very start. Don't quote any other posts (except maybe this so people know that is what you are doing), and don't attempt to answer any questions or rebutt any points made, simply reiterate what your point is if you feel it has not been made as well as you would like.