How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.
It isn't though.
If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.
It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.
They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.
As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.
Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.
But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.
What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.
Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.
Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.
How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.
It isn't though.
If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.
It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.
They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.
As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.
Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.
But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.
What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.
Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.
Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.
League is so toxic because of the instant queue and lack of meaningful consequences to bad behavior. The same reasons for the toxicity in WoW.
@noaani What need does a guild have to track that information from its members?
They can keep track of their information themselves, can they not?
Basically what Caeryl said.
A guild is a unit. The idea is that every member works together. The information from one member of the guild is of no value, it is the information of everyone in the guild that is of value.
Part of the suggestion made to Intrepid in this thread - and other threads - means players will be able to see if guilds have taken the combat tracker option before joining any given guild. Thus, if you are a player that is not keen on combat trackers, you can simply look for a guild that doesn't have one. If they are something you are against as a player, you will probably find you would enjoy a guild without that option anyway.
The idea with a combat tracker being a choice is that only guilds that want to be competitive in terms of PvE would opt to take it. These guilds want players that are themselves competitive in PvE, and players that are competitive in PvE almost exclusively use combat trackers and have no issue with them.
Basically, the kind of player that a guild that would choose to use a combat tracker would only be suitable to players that would use a combat tracker. Those players that don't want to use a combat tracker would probably find a better home in a guild that picked a different option.
How much more toxic a game is with with dps meters vs no dps meters is debatable.
It isn't though.
If someone went to the game forums and saw a post that said someone thinks X class is less suited to a specific thing than Y class, then the player reading that is just as likely to be toxic towards players of X class as if they had a combat tracker.
It isn't a case of "my DPS meter said this" for people when they are acting toxic like that, it is a case of "I think your class sucks". Nothing more, nothing less.
They don't need objective data to back their position up. Subjective data will work fine. Most of these people don't even understand the difference between the two.
As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one. The only difference between the two is the absence or presence of objective data, and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
The only way to remove subjective data from the game is to not let players think or communicate, and so the only way to remove that toxicity is to not let players think or communicate.
Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.
But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.
What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.
Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.
Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.
I'm a little confused how you can use LoL and that games issue with toxicity to make any kind of claim on combat trackers.
LoL has almost no combat tracker usage - significantly lower than any MMO with competitive PvE could ever hope to have. Yet it still has massive issues with toxic players.
Almost that is sagittarius g is that toxicity and combat trackers are not inherently linked.
I mean, if the most toxic game out there (I don't think many would argue this) doesn't have high combat tracker use, and you were making a game that you didn't want to be toxic, you would probably look at other aspects to see what caused that toxicity - you wouldn't waste your time on something that obviously has no effect on it.
@noaani What need does a guild have to track that information from its members?
They can keep track of their information themselves, can they not?
Basically, the kind of player that a guild that would choose to use a combat tracker would only be suitable to players that would use a combat tracker. Those players that don't want to use a combat tracker would probably find a better home in a guild that picked a different option.
Seems like a fine point.
Can't see the harm in that, except that it might discourage PUG raids. If you can see your Guilds statistics but not PUGS, then you wont do a raid with them.
I know that is probably true for you, but it will be the truth for a lot of people.
Can't see the harm in that, except that it might discourage PUG raids.
I guess how much of an issue you see this being depends on your perspective on what a pick up raid should be used for.
I run pick up groups and raids on nights off from guild activities. Not every night off, but often.
I do this to find players that may be looking to step up in to raid content, but may not know how to do that.
To me, not having the full pick up raid being tracked by a combat tracker will be an inconvenience, but little more than that.
The main reason for this is because the target content of a pick up raid is the low to mid tier raid content - it is never the top end. On low and mid tier raid content, as long as you have the tank, a few healers and a few DPS covered with your combat tracker, you should be able to manage.
The reason I don't think this would be an issue at all is because to me, a pick up raid should be looked at as a tool for recruitment more than anything else. It should not be the type of content players strive to participate in, but rather a stepping stone to regular raid participation.
That could be joining an existing guild, or it could be finding enough people with similar schedule and forming a guild for raiding. Either way, the goal of pick up raids should be to find a guild to join that raids. At least, that is my view on them - and in my experience they are at their best when all players look at them in this light.
Even in pick up raids that I've just gone on as a random raid member rather than in a leadership role - the raid still almost always has a core (tank, a few healers, some DPS and the raid leader) from one guild. If this guild picks the combat tracker option, they should be fine on that same low to mid tier raid content.
I honestly don't think that expecting players to join a guild that fits in with the content they want to run is too much to ask.
I can see an argument for players with friends and family, and wanting to stick together - but to me, that is an argument for a secondary system akin to Archeages Family system more than anything.
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
Actaully LoL does have dpsmeter on target dummies in practice mode. Reason for no eleborate combat trackers is that In LoL it is more about strategy more so than dps. Plus was just saying that toxic people is an on going problem, and was using LoL legends. You guys are taking my state ments and taking them in a different direction.
This way people can still kinda figure out if someone is doing something wrong.
Let's say the raid is stuck progressing because of what feels like lack of damage so the leaders have a look at people's ability stats. They see 7 little Timmy's are only spamming "Hurl chair" and can teach them what rotation they could use to do more damage. Or maybe someones "Nipple twist" should account for XX% of his damage but the number is way less, so is the person using the right buff or combo to boost the ability's damage?
Other similar stats like how many % of their total damage was done to the boss, adds, environment, etc. can also be useful.
This way people can't be toxic to people putting out less amount of damage done, but instead just kinda see where the problem lies.
Sorry if someone suggested this already, it's a long thread and I cannot be bothered reading it all.
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
The combat tracker did not create toxicity.
They may have been a visible factor in some toxic behavior that you have witnessed, but they were not the cause of it.
The cause could have been inexperienced raid leadership, who had expectations beyond what their raid were capable of at the time. They may have expected X level of performance and seen that they only got a fraction of that, and so acted upon that.
This may come across as being a combat tracker leading to toxic behavior, but that raid leader would have eventually found the raid not performing as they wanted when content they wanted and expected to kill wasn't dying.
It may even be thst the players in the guild were just fine, and the raid leader didn't know how to use a combat tracker properly.
The thing with a combat tracker is that it can't lie - it can only tell you what happened. It is still up to the user to make sense of that though
Also, and even more importantly, the actions the guild leadership took were their own decision, and that decision was made independantly of the existance of a combat tracker.
If you have a combat tracker telling you that a number of players are under performing, then you have objective data to show them as much, and a combat tracker as a tool to aid them in reaching the desired performance level.
This can be done in a compassionate manner, if that leadership is mature. If the decision of the guild was anything other than attempting to assist under performing players, that is on them.
The fact that you were raiding at 12 tells me you were probably in a raid that was run by children. I've never been in a raid guild that would allow someone that young to join.
To say the issue there was not the leadership of the guild requires a solid amount of denial when looking back.
Oh no, y'all have me ranting about League of Legends again, just I like I did on their forums years ago. I'm relapsing.
I'm glad you did relapse here.
I knew LoL had some in game tracking, but was unaware it was that extensive. All I knew for sure about it was that there are trackers that (through server "hacks") provide players with a live feed of information - and that these tools are exceedingly rare in comparison to similar tools for other MMO's.
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Just to be clear though, Riot has taken a very strict stance against anything that helps you in-game at all. So things like cooldowns trackers or macros are not allowed. And they've gone as far as encrypting the entirety of their game client to try and keep people from hacking/botting. (The battle against hackers is never-ending.) So it's not like they're just laissez faire about their game data.
This is why development of some of these tools are now projects for people that are actual experts in specific fields, rather than a decade ago when it was something you could probably figure out after a weekend of teaching yourself Java.
There are some tools made for *** that were made as a challenge by people that don't really even play games - they just wanted to see how hard it would be. Some of the methods used shocked me - mostly in terms of how little protection the game developers had in place for these types of things (note, I am not condoning this kind of thing for any game, including Ashes).
It is absolutely true that attempting to fight hacks and cheats is a never-ending battle - however, that battle is made even harder (and more expensive) if you are including a tool that many players think should be legitimate. This isn't a specific and definite reason to allow things like combat trackers in an MMO as being allowed, but it should be a factor that is taken in to account.
You are also right about any line drawn being arbitrary. There is no way to draw a distinction between different types of assistance without it being completely arbitrary - but that doesn't mean a line shouldn't be drawn somewhere, it is just a case of finding out where makes the most sense for the expected player base (that is more important than what the developer wants, as the player base will get their way in this regard).
I also like the idea of a game where all information is either vague or completely hidden, as you suggest. To me, this would be a great idea to build a game around - but it would need to essentially be the core tenant of the game.
If I were building a game like this, I would make it a single player or cooperative game rather than a competitive game, as blind competition is rarely fun. It also wouldn't be an overly long game - maybe 12 hours worth of game play in total. Any longer than that and I think players would be done with it.
I could also see it being used as a type of side content in a larger MMO - I've always liked the idea of a vast desert area where the games map system is disabled, and the whole thing is essentially randomly generated - the idea being to give the impression that you can never accurately find your way around this desert. it isn't combat information being taken from you, but it is still a lack of information being used to create an interesting piece of side content.
Now you just basically repeated almost every thing I just posted. Like it or not dps meter contribute to toxicity in MMOs It is debatable on how much it does. You are saying it is not and dps meters do not make a significant contribution to toxicity in games not enough to have them removed. Well another aurguement is the the difference having a dps meter and not having dps meter does not have to much impact on the game itself so it is better to just not have them cause they can lead to people being toxic.
Personally would like to see dps meters in game posted for them on another thread for a long time, but not going to pretend or say that Ashes if Creation does have a legitament reason for not having them. That would be a lie. I do not like their decision but know why they made. In a nutshell a lot of peoples post that are really long come to.....Dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic.
This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings. They also said no parses. That is the only real problem I see. Think that is a legitament concern. Just saying dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic in a very long and intelligent way....well it is still the same thing.
Now you just basically repeated almost every thing I just posted. Like it or not dps meter contribute to toxicity in MMOs It is debatable on how much it does. You are saying it is not and dps meters do not make a significant contribution to toxicity in games not enough to have them removed. Well another aurguement is the the difference having a dps meter and not having dps meter does not have to much impact on the game itself so it is better to just not have them cause they can lead to people being toxic.
Personally would like to see dps meters in game posted for them on another thread for a long time, but not going to pretend or say that Ashes if Creation does have a legitament reason for not having them. That would be a lie. I do not like their decision but know why they made. In a nutshell a lot of peoples post that are really long come to.....Dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic.
This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings. They also said no parses. That is the only real problem I see. Think that is a legitament concern. Just saying dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic in a very long and intelligent way....well it is still the same thing.
Combat tracking is required to gather objective data about fights in an efficient, reliable way.
That’s extremely important to a game and has a massive impact on how player approach content.
Toxicity is primarily caused by a lack of consequences and a lack of community dependence. It’s neither caused nor made worse by objective data.
The surefire way to ensure your game is a toxic cesspit? A random group finder.
@leonerdo League used the Tribunal before machine learning. Imo that was the best they have ever been. Everyone could vote on what is ok and where to draw the line. No one was overly sensitive and no one got away for saying in chat they will troll this ranked game.
The Tribunal was player driven, it had no moderators.
Out of boredom I kept track of people I encountered that actively promote in chat they will int I and I can say, now a lot of them just keep on playing.
There are other factors contributing to it like smurfing and basically a 0 consequence line. You can just make a new account with the same email you just got banned on, but that existed before too and yet I was rarely ever frustrated or shocked at how people behave in Season 2-4 while the tribunal existed compared to now.
Before it was a rare event. Now it's progressed to a common sight.
It's deinstalled again for 2 months now. I just can't deal with that level of absurdity for too long.
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings.
I don't see any reason why these leaderboards need to exist. it's a cheesy method to give players a reason to feel obligated to stay in the game longer than they would otherwise, and I would hope Steven is above this kind of tactic.
To me, the only competition I need in raiding is who is killing contested encounters the most.
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
This is fair enough and we are not going to change each others mind on the internet. We have different experiences which leads us to different conclusions but thank you for discussion your ideas
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
This is fair enough and we are not going to change each others mind on the internet. We have different experiences which leads us to different conclusions but thank you for discussion your ideas
However I hope that the dev listens to my ideas
We do all have different experiences.
However, many people seem to want to misplace the blame for their experiences, and combat trackers are an easy target on which to misplace that blame.
That is basically what very nearly every argument against them that I have seen boils down to - I saw toxicity and a combat tracker was involved, therefore it was the combat trackers fault!
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
This is fair enough and we are not going to change each others mind on the internet. We have different experiences which leads us to different conclusions but thank you for discussion your ideas
However I hope that the dev listens to my ideas
We do all have different experiences.
However, many people seem to want to misplace the blame for their experiences, and combat trackers are an easy target on which to misplace that blame.
That is basically what very nearly every argument against them that I have seen boils down to - I saw toxicity and a combat tracker was involved, therefore it was the combat trackers fault!
I completely agree with you there. Blaming DPS meters or combat analyzers as I like to call them, since they are far more than just DPS numbers, is very counter productive.
The way I see combat trackers contributing to toxic environments is by encouraging others to tolerate toxic people that are performing well.
A player dealing high dps and bullying others is less likely to be dealt with than a player only bullying others.
I personally feel that lack of combat trackers also leads to more meaningful player relations.
When Im lacking numbers I feel like Im more inclined to find out what kind of person I am dealing with.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
The way I see combat trackers contributing to toxic environments is by encouraging others to tolerate toxic people that are performing well.
A player dealing high dps and bullying others is less likely to be dealt with than a player only bullying others.
I personally feel that lack of combat trackers also leads to more meaningful player relations.
When Im lacking numbers I feel like Im more inclined to find out what kind of person I am dealing with.
This here is the only real concern I would have, but Ashes is going to be a community driven game.
Someone being a dick about their dps might be able to keep up the act for a while with no consequence. But once they piss off enough players, other guilds are free to hunt them down. Players can raid their node, stalk their caravans, attack them whenever they like, have a player spy on their guild and leak info. If the community as a whole decides to excuse that behavior without consequence, treating raiders as elites even if they’re rude Karens, then that is a community problem.
The way I see combat trackers contributing to toxic environments is by encouraging others to tolerate toxic people that are performing well.
A player dealing high dps and bullying others is less likely to be dealt with than a player only bullying others.
I personally feel that lack of combat trackers also leads to more meaningful player relations.
When Im lacking numbers I feel like Im more inclined to find out what kind of person I am dealing with.
This is why I want to keep this topic (regardless of which thread) going. Every now and then, there is a new point to be made.
I have two main points to make here. The first is that a toxic player is also likely to be assertive. This assertive toxic player may well tell their guild/group/raid that they are the best player ever, and without a combat tracker it is not necessarily that easy to disprove. Thus they may be inclined to keep that assertive toxic player around on the assumption that they are that good - without evidence.
Second, if the prevailing suggestion were adopted (Intrepid implementing a combat tracker for guilds, that only works on guild members), this means you will only ever know how that toxic player parses after inviting them to your guild. If a guild is concerned about toxic players in their ranks (for reasons outlined in the above post), then the guild has the opportunity to assess the player as a person before they have the opportunity to assess the player in a combat tracker.
Basically, it would mean guilds can decide what level of toxicity they will accept in their ranks, and they can decide that before a combat tracker enters the discussion.
@Caeryl but mean people that are performing well with objective data backing them up are likely to also climb ranks. Thus they gain more ways to bully others and also get some backing from the guild.
Even if/when at some point people get their fill of them, theyll have added to toxicity among the community.
@Noaani A mean person saying hes the best is a lot less credible than one with numbers to back it up.
The point still remains that trackers offering objective data encourage competitive guilds to recruit players more for their dps than personality.
If you in all honesty ask yourself if the point in making is true. Then you will know that tracker indeed is increasing toxicity in the game.
The way I see Steven visioning his game is with minimum toxicity and more earthly approach to gaming.
When youre in a real fight you have to trust your wit and instincts and thats what I think Steven wants us to do with raid bosses.
Besides, were going to have owpvp so every other factor that can create toxicity has to go
This is of course just speculation but Steven is the only person who knows his vision and what it includes.
We have to believe he can pull it off.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
@/Caeryl but mean people that are performing well with objective data backing them up are likely to also climb ranks. Thus they gain more ways to bully others and also get some backing from the guild.
Even if/when at some point people get their fill of them, theyll have added to toxicity among the community.
I’m gonna be brutally honest here; What people tend to call “bullying” is often a matter of some players having high standards and not settling for less from their group mates.
A small amount of toxicity that’s inherent to a particular personality type when mixed with the anonymity of the internet, is completely worth dealing with to have all the benefits that comes from detailed combat logs. Recommended class builds, dungeon guides, group composition efficiency, effective ability rotations, most potent mitigation tools. All of these things require players have objective data.
And they will, whether Intrepid integrates it into their game in a way they can have control over, or if they leave it entirely up to third parties, players will have that information.
A mean person saying hes the best is a lot less credible than one with numbers to back it up.
I only bought up one of my initial four thoughts on your suggesting in my previous post (didn't want to bombard you with four points to argue all at once).
So the first is, as above, is the fact that it will happen with or without those hard numbers numbers.
The second is basically as Caeryl said at the end of the above post - players will have a combat tracker anyway, the argument here is about getting Intrepid to implement one so that they can have some form of control over it.
The third is that I believe that individual guilds should be able to decide what level of toxicity they chose to accept (or indeed require) of their members, and this is what guilds will do regardless of any attempts others may make to the contrary.
If a given guild decided they didn't want toxic players - regardless of what numbers the player may parse, or if those numbers are available or not - that player won't leave the guild, they will simply go to a guild that allows (or requires) for more toxicity from it's members. The notion that there won't be toxic/troll guilds in Ashes is fanciful.
The fourth is probably best expressed as a reply to this...
The way I see Steven visioning his game is with minimum toxicity
Ashes is a game where players can kill each other for the raw material harvests that others may be carrying - or just kill them for no reason.
Ashes is a game where players can perform actual highway robbery to take a large portion of wealth away from one player - or a group of players.
Ashes is a game where players can literally chose a path to hunt down and kill other players.
Ashes is a game where players can attack and destroy the in game homes and economic devices of other players via node sieges.
Ashes is a game where guilds can declare war on other guilds for what ever reason they see fit.
With all of these potential points for toxicity to originate, there will be a solid level of it in the game regardless - the only way to lower the toxicity levels to anything that could be considered "minimal" would be to remove several of these above facts.
So really, when weighing all four of the above points, I'm not really sure what more to say.
So, what we are talking about here is a case where a guild somehow has a player in it's ranks that is more toxic than they would like. This scenario in itself would be rare, as there is no reason to not screen player personality when recruiting for a guild.
In order for your scenario to play out correctly, that guild needs to be one that would keep the player on if that player parses well on a combat tracker - so that toxic player needs to be in the top 10 - 15% of players.
That guild also needs to be one that would opt to not make use of third party combat trackers, which if they are the type of guild that would keep a toxic player that performs well, they are probably the type of guild that will use third party combat trackers.
Already we are talking about an edge case of an edge case of an edge case after the first three of my above points.
The fourth point simply puts that edge case of an edge case of an edge case in to perspective in terms of the amount of toxicity that it would add to the game.
Meters being abused by toxic players is a very strange argument. If you find your self playing with someone that is toxic, find someone else to play with? If anything it's a tool you can use to filter out toxic people.
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HartwellMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2020
They probably won't allow addons, such as damage meters. Combat log API can be used to gauge health pools to get the total HP of enemies. I remember Steven saying that he wasn't even planning to have health meters on enemies, but rather a sort of other vague health indicator. If this goes how I think it could go, a client wouldn't even need to receive much combat information, except for floating combat text. If they wanted to, they would only need to send the exact damage value of an attack to the player who had dealt the damage. This would fit in line with Steven's wants for the game.
Could the information a player receives from floating combat text lead to 3rd party software creating overlays for the game, such as an overlay containing health bars? Maybe. There have been games that have done this with things like the client side combat log. Guild Wars 2 for example has 3rd party DPS meters sharing data between users to form a whole picture. Once the total health is formed after the death of the enemy, a health bar could be produced if users of such 3rd party software have their damage dealt synced up through a server that hosts such data.
The interesting thing about the 3rd party DPS meter approach is that a person could probably spoof data to send to a server that's running the 3rd party damage meters. A person could bump their numbers up to make it appear as though they are doing better than they actually were. If there were to be no API to prove that you are authentically a specific player, a person might even be able to spoof others and send wrong data on the behalf of another to make them look weaker, if somebody really wanted to be a pooper.
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Sounds like a very long way of saying toxic people are going to be toxic regardless of dps meters. Think you had the same theme about people standing in the fire. I could actually could sit here and give you some reasons why not having a dps meter is not going to make to much of a difference like for one thing we are not going to have the instant que experience so people will have tendencey to work with people more vs just trolling on people you will most likely never play with again.
But saying that toxic people will always be toxic, just is not true. You did not say that per say more like objective data (dps meter) and subjective data ....As such, these players will be just as toxic with a combat tracker as without one.. and these toxic people will use either objective or subjective data to fuel that toxicity.
Or with or without a dps meter cause toxic people are toxic. Depends on what type of environment you create.There are games out there were toxic levels are kind of low in camparison to other games so there is a way to creat that environment.
What they are trying to avoid is setting a numerical value to peoples performance Peter said something like They did not want people not playing with other people just because they did not get some numerical dps. Which is all good but real solution is designing the game so dps is not so important so guessing they are going to do that also, will not work otherwise.
Toxic people are a problem in online gaming and is huge issue right now League of Legends is having an open discussion about that, reoccuring issue. The less toxic players you have the better the over all game experience will and think they are trying to approach that problem from different avenues not just dps meters.
Think problem is people are so used to having them as a metric so not having them just seems foreign.
Think they will not be missed much especially if they make a practice area. In another post I said that I only used dps meters on target dummies but actually did use them in live run occassionally.
League is so toxic because of the instant queue and lack of meaningful consequences to bad behavior. The same reasons for the toxicity in WoW.
Basically what Caeryl said.
A guild is a unit. The idea is that every member works together. The information from one member of the guild is of no value, it is the information of everyone in the guild that is of value.
Part of the suggestion made to Intrepid in this thread - and other threads - means players will be able to see if guilds have taken the combat tracker option before joining any given guild. Thus, if you are a player that is not keen on combat trackers, you can simply look for a guild that doesn't have one. If they are something you are against as a player, you will probably find you would enjoy a guild without that option anyway.
The idea with a combat tracker being a choice is that only guilds that want to be competitive in terms of PvE would opt to take it. These guilds want players that are themselves competitive in PvE, and players that are competitive in PvE almost exclusively use combat trackers and have no issue with them.
Basically, the kind of player that a guild that would choose to use a combat tracker would only be suitable to players that would use a combat tracker. Those players that don't want to use a combat tracker would probably find a better home in a guild that picked a different option.
I'm a little confused how you can use LoL and that games issue with toxicity to make any kind of claim on combat trackers.
LoL has almost no combat tracker usage - significantly lower than any MMO with competitive PvE could ever hope to have. Yet it still has massive issues with toxic players.
Almost that is sagittarius g is that toxicity and combat trackers are not inherently linked.
I mean, if the most toxic game out there (I don't think many would argue this) doesn't have high combat tracker use, and you were making a game that you didn't want to be toxic, you would probably look at other aspects to see what caused that toxicity - you wouldn't waste your time on something that obviously has no effect on it.
Seems like a fine point.
Can't see the harm in that, except that it might discourage PUG raids. If you can see your Guilds statistics but not PUGS, then you wont do a raid with them.
I know that is probably true for you, but it will be the truth for a lot of people.
I run pick up groups and raids on nights off from guild activities. Not every night off, but often.
I do this to find players that may be looking to step up in to raid content, but may not know how to do that.
To me, not having the full pick up raid being tracked by a combat tracker will be an inconvenience, but little more than that.
The main reason for this is because the target content of a pick up raid is the low to mid tier raid content - it is never the top end. On low and mid tier raid content, as long as you have the tank, a few healers and a few DPS covered with your combat tracker, you should be able to manage.
The reason I don't think this would be an issue at all is because to me, a pick up raid should be looked at as a tool for recruitment more than anything else. It should not be the type of content players strive to participate in, but rather a stepping stone to regular raid participation.
That could be joining an existing guild, or it could be finding enough people with similar schedule and forming a guild for raiding. Either way, the goal of pick up raids should be to find a guild to join that raids. At least, that is my view on them - and in my experience they are at their best when all players look at them in this light.
Even in pick up raids that I've just gone on as a random raid member rather than in a leadership role - the raid still almost always has a core (tank, a few healers, some DPS and the raid leader) from one guild. If this guild picks the combat tracker option, they should be fine on that same low to mid tier raid content.
I honestly don't think that expecting players to join a guild that fits in with the content they want to run is too much to ask.
I can see an argument for players with friends and family, and wanting to stick together - but to me, that is an argument for a secondary system akin to Archeages Family system more than anything.
The thing here is gent..gals...>.> people, is that you have your words and your experiences and I have mine I've been that guy that has had to turn away members from raids, or under the one that has had to do it. I've been raiding since I was 12 or 13. I've seen how bad it can get, i've seen what happens, and i've seen some really good raid leads become the most toxic clowns ever. My point here is that no matter what your argument is for dps meters, I can never agree to them. They can in fact create toxicity, and while it isn't widely spread in some instances, it is bad in all of them. I'm not saying I won't play the game or whatever if they decide to change that, I just think that keeping Toxicity as low as possible is better than adding in a system that helps it develop.
This being said I hold no ill will against someone who wants them. I just can't agree with you because of my own experiences.
Also, to whoever asked about 3rd party stuff, I suggest you read the terms. XD Everything is already in place there.
Explosive Wheelbarrow 45%
Nipple twist 22%
Throw harddrive 12%
Hurl chair 10%
Something else 1%
This way people can still kinda figure out if someone is doing something wrong.
Let's say the raid is stuck progressing because of what feels like lack of damage so the leaders have a look at people's ability stats. They see 7 little Timmy's are only spamming "Hurl chair" and can teach them what rotation they could use to do more damage. Or maybe someones "Nipple twist" should account for XX% of his damage but the number is way less, so is the person using the right buff or combo to boost the ability's damage?
Other similar stats like how many % of their total damage was done to the boss, adds, environment, etc. can also be useful.
This way people can't be toxic to people putting out less amount of damage done, but instead just kinda see where the problem lies.
Sorry if someone suggested this already, it's a long thread and I cannot be bothered reading it all.
They may have been a visible factor in some toxic behavior that you have witnessed, but they were not the cause of it.
The cause could have been inexperienced raid leadership, who had expectations beyond what their raid were capable of at the time. They may have expected X level of performance and seen that they only got a fraction of that, and so acted upon that.
This may come across as being a combat tracker leading to toxic behavior, but that raid leader would have eventually found the raid not performing as they wanted when content they wanted and expected to kill wasn't dying.
It may even be thst the players in the guild were just fine, and the raid leader didn't know how to use a combat tracker properly.
The thing with a combat tracker is that it can't lie - it can only tell you what happened. It is still up to the user to make sense of that though
Also, and even more importantly, the actions the guild leadership took were their own decision, and that decision was made independantly of the existance of a combat tracker.
If you have a combat tracker telling you that a number of players are under performing, then you have objective data to show them as much, and a combat tracker as a tool to aid them in reaching the desired performance level.
This can be done in a compassionate manner, if that leadership is mature. If the decision of the guild was anything other than attempting to assist under performing players, that is on them.
The fact that you were raiding at 12 tells me you were probably in a raid that was run by children. I've never been in a raid guild that would allow someone that young to join.
To say the issue there was not the leadership of the guild requires a solid amount of denial when looking back.
No, we are taking your statements and pointing out why they are not as relevant as you think.
Yes, toxicity is an issue in online games.
No, combat trackers do not inherently add to that.
Yes, there are things game developers can do to lower this in their game.
No, there is nothing a game like LoL or WoW can do about it now.
Yes, that is becsuse both of those games rely heavily on automated group formation.
No, Ashes will not have automated group forming.
Yes, that means Ashes will automatically have fewer issues with toxicity than those games.
No, that won't change if Ashes has a built in combat tracker.
I knew LoL had some in game tracking, but was unaware it was that extensive. All I knew for sure about it was that there are trackers that (through server "hacks") provide players with a live feed of information - and that these tools are exceedingly rare in comparison to similar tools for other MMO's.
There are some tools made for *** that were made as a challenge by people that don't really even play games - they just wanted to see how hard it would be. Some of the methods used shocked me - mostly in terms of how little protection the game developers had in place for these types of things (note, I am not condoning this kind of thing for any game, including Ashes).
It is absolutely true that attempting to fight hacks and cheats is a never-ending battle - however, that battle is made even harder (and more expensive) if you are including a tool that many players think should be legitimate. This isn't a specific and definite reason to allow things like combat trackers in an MMO as being allowed, but it should be a factor that is taken in to account.
You are also right about any line drawn being arbitrary. There is no way to draw a distinction between different types of assistance without it being completely arbitrary - but that doesn't mean a line shouldn't be drawn somewhere, it is just a case of finding out where makes the most sense for the expected player base (that is more important than what the developer wants, as the player base will get their way in this regard).
I also like the idea of a game where all information is either vague or completely hidden, as you suggest. To me, this would be a great idea to build a game around - but it would need to essentially be the core tenant of the game.
If I were building a game like this, I would make it a single player or cooperative game rather than a competitive game, as blind competition is rarely fun. It also wouldn't be an overly long game - maybe 12 hours worth of game play in total. Any longer than that and I think players would be done with it.
I could also see it being used as a type of side content in a larger MMO - I've always liked the idea of a vast desert area where the games map system is disabled, and the whole thing is essentially randomly generated - the idea being to give the impression that you can never accurately find your way around this desert. it isn't combat information being taken from you, but it is still a lack of information being used to create an interesting piece of side content.
Personally would like to see dps meters in game posted for them on another thread for a long time, but not going to pretend or say that Ashes if Creation does have a legitament reason for not having them. That would be a lie. I do not like their decision but know why they made. In a nutshell a lot of peoples post that are really long come to.....Dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic.
This is a repost but kind of wondering what type of criteria is going to be used in competative raiding. What are going to be the stats used to figure out the leaderboards. Guild rankings. They also said no parses. That is the only real problem I see. Think that is a legitament concern. Just saying dps meters are not toxic it is the people that are toxic in a very long and intelligent way....well it is still the same thing.
Combat tracking is required to gather objective data about fights in an efficient, reliable way.
That’s extremely important to a game and has a massive impact on how player approach content.
Toxicity is primarily caused by a lack of consequences and a lack of community dependence. It’s neither caused nor made worse by objective data.
The surefire way to ensure your game is a toxic cesspit? A random group finder.
The Tribunal was player driven, it had no moderators.
Out of boredom I kept track of people I encountered that actively promote in chat they will int I and I can say, now a lot of them just keep on playing.
There are other factors contributing to it like smurfing and basically a 0 consequence line. You can just make a new account with the same email you just got banned on, but that existed before too and yet I was rarely ever frustrated or shocked at how people behave in Season 2-4 while the tribunal existed compared to now.
Before it was a rare event. Now it's progressed to a common sight.
It's deinstalled again for 2 months now. I just can't deal with that level of absurdity for too long.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
To me, the only competition I need in raiding is who is killing contested encounters the most.
This is fair enough and we are not going to change each others mind on the internet. We have different experiences which leads us to different conclusions but thank you for discussion your ideas
However I hope that the dev listens to my ideas
We do all have different experiences.
However, many people seem to want to misplace the blame for their experiences, and combat trackers are an easy target on which to misplace that blame.
That is basically what very nearly every argument against them that I have seen boils down to - I saw toxicity and a combat tracker was involved, therefore it was the combat trackers fault!
I completely agree with you there. Blaming DPS meters or combat analyzers as I like to call them, since they are far more than just DPS numbers, is very counter productive.
A player dealing high dps and bullying others is less likely to be dealt with than a player only bullying others.
I personally feel that lack of combat trackers also leads to more meaningful player relations.
When Im lacking numbers I feel like Im more inclined to find out what kind of person I am dealing with.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
This here is the only real concern I would have, but Ashes is going to be a community driven game.
Someone being a dick about their dps might be able to keep up the act for a while with no consequence. But once they piss off enough players, other guilds are free to hunt them down. Players can raid their node, stalk their caravans, attack them whenever they like, have a player spy on their guild and leak info. If the community as a whole decides to excuse that behavior without consequence, treating raiders as elites even if they’re rude Karens, then that is a community problem.
This is why I want to keep this topic (regardless of which thread) going. Every now and then, there is a new point to be made.
I have two main points to make here. The first is that a toxic player is also likely to be assertive. This assertive toxic player may well tell their guild/group/raid that they are the best player ever, and without a combat tracker it is not necessarily that easy to disprove. Thus they may be inclined to keep that assertive toxic player around on the assumption that they are that good - without evidence.
Second, if the prevailing suggestion were adopted (Intrepid implementing a combat tracker for guilds, that only works on guild members), this means you will only ever know how that toxic player parses after inviting them to your guild. If a guild is concerned about toxic players in their ranks (for reasons outlined in the above post), then the guild has the opportunity to assess the player as a person before they have the opportunity to assess the player in a combat tracker.
Basically, it would mean guilds can decide what level of toxicity they will accept in their ranks, and they can decide that before a combat tracker enters the discussion.
Even if/when at some point people get their fill of them, theyll have added to toxicity among the community.
@Noaani A mean person saying hes the best is a lot less credible than one with numbers to back it up.
The point still remains that trackers offering objective data encourage competitive guilds to recruit players more for their dps than personality.
If you in all honesty ask yourself if the point in making is true. Then you will know that tracker indeed is increasing toxicity in the game.
The way I see Steven visioning his game is with minimum toxicity and more earthly approach to gaming.
When youre in a real fight you have to trust your wit and instincts and thats what I think Steven wants us to do with raid bosses.
Besides, were going to have owpvp so every other factor that can create toxicity has to go
This is of course just speculation but Steven is the only person who knows his vision and what it includes.
We have to believe he can pull it off.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
I’m gonna be brutally honest here; What people tend to call “bullying” is often a matter of some players having high standards and not settling for less from their group mates.
A small amount of toxicity that’s inherent to a particular personality type when mixed with the anonymity of the internet, is completely worth dealing with to have all the benefits that comes from detailed combat logs. Recommended class builds, dungeon guides, group composition efficiency, effective ability rotations, most potent mitigation tools. All of these things require players have objective data.
And they will, whether Intrepid integrates it into their game in a way they can have control over, or if they leave it entirely up to third parties, players will have that information.
So the first is, as above, is the fact that it will happen with or without those hard numbers numbers.
The second is basically as Caeryl said at the end of the above post - players will have a combat tracker anyway, the argument here is about getting Intrepid to implement one so that they can have some form of control over it.
The third is that I believe that individual guilds should be able to decide what level of toxicity they chose to accept (or indeed require) of their members, and this is what guilds will do regardless of any attempts others may make to the contrary.
If a given guild decided they didn't want toxic players - regardless of what numbers the player may parse, or if those numbers are available or not - that player won't leave the guild, they will simply go to a guild that allows (or requires) for more toxicity from it's members. The notion that there won't be toxic/troll guilds in Ashes is fanciful.
The fourth is probably best expressed as a reply to this... Ashes is a game where players can kill each other for the raw material harvests that others may be carrying - or just kill them for no reason.
Ashes is a game where players can perform actual highway robbery to take a large portion of wealth away from one player - or a group of players.
Ashes is a game where players can literally chose a path to hunt down and kill other players.
Ashes is a game where players can attack and destroy the in game homes and economic devices of other players via node sieges.
Ashes is a game where guilds can declare war on other guilds for what ever reason they see fit.
With all of these potential points for toxicity to originate, there will be a solid level of it in the game regardless - the only way to lower the toxicity levels to anything that could be considered "minimal" would be to remove several of these above facts.
So really, when weighing all four of the above points, I'm not really sure what more to say.
So, what we are talking about here is a case where a guild somehow has a player in it's ranks that is more toxic than they would like. This scenario in itself would be rare, as there is no reason to not screen player personality when recruiting for a guild.
In order for your scenario to play out correctly, that guild needs to be one that would keep the player on if that player parses well on a combat tracker - so that toxic player needs to be in the top 10 - 15% of players.
That guild also needs to be one that would opt to not make use of third party combat trackers, which if they are the type of guild that would keep a toxic player that performs well, they are probably the type of guild that will use third party combat trackers.
Already we are talking about an edge case of an edge case of an edge case after the first three of my above points.
The fourth point simply puts that edge case of an edge case of an edge case in to perspective in terms of the amount of toxicity that it would add to the game.
Could the information a player receives from floating combat text lead to 3rd party software creating overlays for the game, such as an overlay containing health bars? Maybe. There have been games that have done this with things like the client side combat log. Guild Wars 2 for example has 3rd party DPS meters sharing data between users to form a whole picture. Once the total health is formed after the death of the enemy, a health bar could be produced if users of such 3rd party software have their damage dealt synced up through a server that hosts such data.
The interesting thing about the 3rd party DPS meter approach is that a person could probably spoof data to send to a server that's running the 3rd party damage meters. A person could bump their numbers up to make it appear as though they are doing better than they actually were. If there were to be no API to prove that you are authentically a specific player, a person might even be able to spoof others and send wrong data on the behalf of another to make them look weaker, if somebody really wanted to be a pooper.
Edit: Here's an example from GW2 of how 3rd party stuff can change a game.