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Is there a need for somekind of statistical/breakdown tools, e.g., DMG meters in the game?
Deztox
Member
The game seems to cater to players that want to seek out insane achievements like becoming a mayor of a great metropolis or a monarch and in this process being rewarded with Royal Mounts only possessed by approximately 0.1% of the concurrent player base. This is a very elitist approach where the risk and effort gives very unique and special rewards.
However, most end-game players love to figure out how to optimize their gear, rotations and in this game, there will extreme diversity through the augment system. As we currently know, no addons will be allowed in the game, which then begs the question - How do we compare players and improve ourselves in the endgame? There seems to be opposition from some part of the player base to include DMG meters and such, as it for some players seems like a very blunt and crude measure. But at some point, people that are trying to progress and push themselves would like to get some tools to do so.
My thoughts on the matter are that it should not be a part of the game as you play it but, e.g., a combat log of sorts where you can look up various stats, that could be overall damage done, healing done, damage taken, buffs/auras used, steps ran (kiting?). As it shouldn't be part of the fight when you're actually playing the game as an addon - but a tool where you can research after an event; what might work well and what might work poorly. This will also add an additional layer of progression for a large set of players that will be able to improve their gameplay by understanding the differences in performance.
I fear that the lack of some kind of breakdown tool will heavily reduce the end-game competitiveness in the game, which would be a shame, as it seems that the better you perform the harder content you fight and the better rewards you get.
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Deztox
However, most end-game players love to figure out how to optimize their gear, rotations and in this game, there will extreme diversity through the augment system. As we currently know, no addons will be allowed in the game, which then begs the question - How do we compare players and improve ourselves in the endgame? There seems to be opposition from some part of the player base to include DMG meters and such, as it for some players seems like a very blunt and crude measure. But at some point, people that are trying to progress and push themselves would like to get some tools to do so.
My thoughts on the matter are that it should not be a part of the game as you play it but, e.g., a combat log of sorts where you can look up various stats, that could be overall damage done, healing done, damage taken, buffs/auras used, steps ran (kiting?). As it shouldn't be part of the fight when you're actually playing the game as an addon - but a tool where you can research after an event; what might work well and what might work poorly. This will also add an additional layer of progression for a large set of players that will be able to improve their gameplay by understanding the differences in performance.
I fear that the lack of some kind of breakdown tool will heavily reduce the end-game competitiveness in the game, which would be a shame, as it seems that the better you perform the harder content you fight and the better rewards you get.
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Deztox
0
Comments
Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.
To you information is not as valuable, but if you see the min/max community, information is king. Also, having this information can be the major factor in being able to complete a raid in a certain time which in turn will reward you with top of the line loot aka physical items.
Especially with item degradation, the numbers will constantly have to be researched in order to maintain min/man.
No my problem is that they will only have a very niche use.
They would only be invited to guilds with extremely competitive players.
Its not necessary that every server is going to have such kind of guilds.
So you will end up with a profession that has no physical value most of the time.
All the artisan classes are interconnected to each other and you need to depend on one for the other. How will you introduce a profession that deals with information into this mix?
Granted this is only an idea and the profession would have to be flushed out more to be integrated into the system. For example, it could require a special metal in order for a machine to process the information, or it could require special tools/furniture etc.
Having no physical value is also subjective. One could say breeding mounts is pointless since all you need is one mount. However there are people who want the fastest and people who want to collect. Being able to research fights and share data could be another profession that will tie in well with a lot of people.
My wife quites games over you need to this combo or get this gear to do enough damage. Follow this build guide etc.
I've taken down plenty of raids and dungeons in MMOs with indergeared or not optimized good players. Although sure you're screwed in DPS race fights.
This also really depends on what different items do and if there is a visible leveling/ability scale to items. In some games like eso, there are hundreds of different possible sets and items that players can use. Not only that but multiple different stats contribute to the damage done by skills. DPS meters suits a game like that because of the variety of sources of damage and because not all sources are equal. This might turn out be not necessary for AoC as there maybe less stats that determine the damage done.
I don't think having an ingame meter or profession to determine buff and debuffs provides much value, as it would be fairly easy to determine this with the help excel statistics and a general knowledge of classes.
One thing I will point out is that in PvP combat the element of player skill plays a crucial role in determining the damage done. Depending on how strong the meta is an off meta player maybe able to defeat somebody who follows the meta to a T. Further in my experience the best way to learn the meta in these types of games is to duel other players dozens and dozens of times and to experiment with different abilties, items, etc etc.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
I think the min/max progression won't be as forced as in other MMOs because of dynamic looting tables, gear degradation and the lack of data mining. This profession will assist competitive players and hardcore raiders.
Again, I am against the whole meter thing as I won't personally care for it, nor am I a competitive player but I do feel it would be a nice addition for the top 1% of players who are willing to spend countless hours to master a profession in order to see a bunch of numbers.
I agree what you are saying, but you keep saying most people. I am also included into this "most people" category where I would just rather play and improve based on what I can complete. However, you have to take into account the top 1% of competitive players. I know it would be a profession that both you and I will not waste our time with, but there are people who will dedicate their time providing this information for their guild. An MMO, should cater to all group of players, from role playing, to casual, to semi-causal to hardcore.
This profession can be apart of the crafting tree where it would still rely on those who gather and process. Where you would need certain processed materials and the right furniture to "gather data". This won't be: "every single fight, here are the dps meters" it would have to be planned and supported by more than one individual. So it is not simply, a dps meter, but a profession that can gather information from the world.
Sure, I don't think at this current point in development they should "waste" time in developing another profession since I am sure their design doc are massive enough. However, slapping on a simple DPS meter is the WORST artificial band-aid that will only exacerbate the concerns with meters. Either properly integrate information gathering within the game or don't at all.
We're scratching the surface is a bit here where you're mentioning the top 1%, but these are often the players that you will follow on stream and provide content that people will watch on Twitch, etc. It creates a rivalry between super competitive guilds if they can "measure" a bit against each other.
And given that it is introduced to the game, e.g., through a combat log as previously proposed or even through a profession as some mention (I personally think this would be overkill) doesn't mean that everyone will use it. It seems that there will be many ways to play this game and it will cater to various difficulties, so people that don't want to min/max can just choose to leave the "meta" gamers to themselves and enjoy themselves.
I would expect any DPS Meter IS could potentially make to be to a high standard, with full combat logs available too. I would not expect a bodge job. It is mere academic points however, IS so far are against DPS Meters. Furthermore, I appreciate simplistic UIs, I don't particularly want a ton of pointless information. If something only relates to 1% of people, why should 99% of people be stuck with an overcrowded UI which grants no benefit and clouds the combat?
The topic itself is very broad. There are literally thousands of ways a DPS Meter can be displayed, hundreds of ways a DPS Meter can be implemented and numerous ways information could be gathered. So far though, IS won't allow Third Party Software and Steven is against a DPS Meter.
If the bosses are on a time-limit, at which point they go nuclear and kill everybody, the players have the right to see if everyone in their party is pulling their weight.
I dislike lazy people. But they're there, and they just do the bare minimum. It's not my, or anyone's job to fill in the gap they're leaving.
Make the DPS Meter in game, or consider it a gray area, and only go after people who use the statistics to insult other players.
Very good points your bringing to the table. I personally don't think it should be a part of the UI as such, but a feature you could bring up after a fight or death to investigate what happened.
If you are talking about PvE it wont exist for a very long time, all pve worth doing is open world and therefore will be contested.
That doesn't take away from the competitiveness in PvE? As far as what Steve said, if some other group does more than 60% of the DMG to a target, they can win the loot despite someone else getting the tag.
Right but whats your dps meters worth when instead of going head to head for the boss kill they just attack you?? I know I wouldnt waste time with my group trying to do more dps than another group when I can just kill them.
Obviously there are many ways to win events, agreed
People that want to excel at their class will have to do it based on trial and error.
This will be part of the adventure in this game. This will be a lengthy process and it should be!
What would be a solution to not give people the path to glory on a piece of paper but instead a bit more insight is more information on armor types in the description of the skills.
- Skill descriptions: Skill X, does 5% additional damage to those wearing light armor or heavy armor.
- Debuff: Based on your damage output you can destabilize the target this effect is triggered only on bosses and after doing a significant amount of damage in a short time. The debuff mentioned applies by X.
- Monster hunter tab: total damage done to bosses, each time you fight that boss more damage it added up to you to keep track if you care.
- Personal dummies only for the individual houses and can only be used by the owner of the house. You should not see any data or analyze but just at the end when the dummy is down how long it took you.
but personally I still believe that trial and error + your own insight + judgment should be the way to go. This also shows who really is skilled and who is not. Yes, builds might go online but who is to say that it could not be better. with too much insight, it would take away the build crafting in less than a month.
Anyone that requires a DPS meter to be good at the game is not very skilled and should not be praised for it.
The lazy people are those that use the meters as they cannot be bothered to go through the process of trial and error. Optimizing your character and the path towards that state of perfection is a journey and should not depend on a tool but on your insight and skill!
On my side I say that even if you knew the perfect combo and gear necessary to output the most maximum damage, you won't use it.
Why would you ask? Gear degrades, so your gear needs to be repaired, and using it for the lulz it's waste of resources.
The game is Open World PvP, even Raids/Dungeons, so if you go around with your PvE build, you'll get destroyed by someone more prepared for PvP. So if you keep this mind you're not using the most uber DPS build, but the one that works for you.
The options are so many that I don't think it would be possible to measure DPS. You can't respec augments so easily either.
If they don't add it, I'm not forced to use it, and if people use it outside the game, I can report them for using third party tools not allowed by the game.
So eventually it might be a really taboo thing that people won't talk about.
If you seek to improve yourself, you have professions to do... expanding the node to do... exploring the world! This is a new world where there are no Wiki pages that will tell you how to complete a quest or find a specific item. You are able to discover something no one has before. You will always have something to do. Starting a game with your thoughts on the end-game is not the way to go and it will not happen for years anyway.
Amen!