DPS meters are the pest in modern games, but i understand the will to optimize. Plese dont bring it to the game
are meters being pests in terms of cluttering UI? I agree - meters shouldn't be visible during combat - it just detracts from actual gameplay
are meters being pests in terms of too much outside preparation? If so - aren't discord servers too much as well? aren't guides in general too much of outside preparation? Why is a tool that aids with understanding of game mechanics too much, but a tool that helps with running a guild is not? How is a walkthrough on achieving something in the game ok then? How is having a wiki about the game ok then?
The combat tracker gathered lot of hate. Gathered all the focus for "why things became bad" or "why people are toxic the most"
It is an easy target, and more, a target from the anger... This tools show, factually, objectively that you are bad... this is why it get hate, and on FFXIV forum, people against it are mostly in green-gray parse on FFlogs. . .
To be honest, personally, i would more about forbidding any kind of build guide, and have a combat tracker.
Guides makes people worse and worse. They stop to thinking by themselves. They go to icyveins, maxroll, or anywhere they can find their builds, follow what those guides says to the letter without even the will to understand.
Sure not all are just "dumbly reading guides"... But for most people "because this is a game" they don't want to invest the time dedicated to understand, they come play leave.
Because they consider that test themselves and time dedicated to understand is wasted. But doesnt change that without any effort to understand (which is what guides allowed) people never gets better.
To be honest, personally, i would more about forbidding any kind of build guide, and have a combat tracker.
Guides makes people worse and worse.
This would actually resolve a number of the things many players have falsely attributed to combat trackers. They are all made up issues, but if there were no build guides posted, people wouldn't be able to complain about even those made up issues.
Also: I'd say dps meters allow more for off meta specs than not having one. Who cares if its not the meta pick if you can clearly see they pump damage? If all you have to go off of is word of mouth meta information, you'll be waay more hesitant.
I see it the other way around: "Oh you see how this one class seems to now be pumping the biggest damage. Sorry Timmy as the raid leader I'm gonna ask you to go reroll this class, so that we can be optimal. No I don't care that it takes you a week to level your secondary archetype. Do it or you're out of the raid, because this new class we just saw parsing as top 1, is now the meta."
Whereas without a DPS meter, it would be: "Well, I have no idea if your class is met or not, because I can't check your numbers, so you play whatever you want, so long as I don't see you slacking off."
That's what personal and enough anecdotal evidence to become empirical has shown me over the years.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I believe DPS meters are a great tool to understand the capacity of classes and enhance the sense of mastery. At the same point, it creates some problems like excluding specific classes due to balance (in my view there is no way to escape this, there is no game that is perfectly balanced and this will happen).
So, my guess is that there should be some core system in-game to really pay this off, like times in dungeons, etc. Would the game have this kind of stuff? Should it? idk
Also: I'd say dps meters allow more for off meta specs than not having one. Who cares if its not the meta pick if you can clearly see they pump damage? If all you have to go off of is word of mouth meta information, you'll be waay more hesitant.
I see it the other way around: "Oh you see how this one class seems to now be pumping the biggest damage. Sorry Timmy as the raid leader I'm gonna ask you to go reroll this class, so that we can be optimal. No I don't care that it takes you a week to level your secondary archetype. Do it or you're out of the raid, because this new class we just saw parsing as top 1, is now the meta."
Whereas without a DPS meter, it would be: "Well, I have no idea if your class is met or not, because I can't check your numbers, so you play whatever you want, so long as I don't see you slacking off."
That's what personal and enough anecdotal evidence to become empirical has shown me over the years.
As that raid leader, I disagree.
If someone shows up to a raid with a spec I have not seen, if it performs, why would I care? It literally makes no sense at all for me to ask them to change. Sure, a spec may do 5% more DPS in a testing environment, but I dont care about that 5% from one character, and I am also more than aware that in a non- testing environment that 5% deficit could well go the other way.
Whereas without a combat tracker, if I have no idea of knowing if your build is 5% or 50% below what I consider to be par, you had better believe I would ask you to spec to a build I have had success with.
The fastest way to waste untold hours worth of player time is to take a raid of unknown builds along on to top end content.
From my position, it is actually irresponsible of a raid leader to do this, they risk wasting too much combined player time if things dont work
Also: I'd say dps meters allow more for off meta specs than not having one. Who cares if its not the meta pick if you can clearly see they pump damage? If all you have to go off of is word of mouth meta information, you'll be waay more hesitant.
I see it the other way around: "Oh you see how this one class seems to now be pumping the biggest damage. Sorry Timmy as the raid leader I'm gonna ask you to go reroll this class, so that we can be optimal. No I don't care that it takes you a week to level your secondary archetype. Do it or you're out of the raid, because this new class we just saw parsing as top 1, is now the meta."
Whereas without a DPS meter, it would be: "Well, I have no idea if your class is met or not, because I can't check your numbers, so you play whatever you want, so long as I don't see you slacking off."
That's what personal and enough anecdotal evidence to become empirical has shown me over the years.
As that raid leader, I disagree.
If someone shows up to a raid with a spec I have not seen, if it performs, why would I care? It literally makes no sense at all for me to ask them to change. Sure, a spec may do 5% more DPS in a testing environment, but I dont care about that 5% from one character, and I am also more than aware that in a non- testing environment that 5% deficit could well go the other way.
Whereas without a combat tracker, if I have no idea of knowing if your build is 5% or 50% below what I consider to be par, you had better believe I would ask you to spec to a build I have had success with.
The fastest way to waste untold hours worth of player time is to take a raid of unknown builds along on to top end content.
From my position, it is actually irresponsible of a raid leader to do this, they risk wasting too much combined player time if things dont work
I mean, we both know that won't happen. Organized raid teams will find a way to evaluate the contribution of a player beforehand. With or without a combat tracker.
They'll evaluate the build, the gear and do a short combat test the same way we have seen in a plethora of other games. They take you to certain mob type/miniboss and watch how quickly you can murder it, then they compare it to the speeds they know from other players.
The same way, they will to try to optimize their build, whether there's a DPS Meter or not. We have seen this dozens of times in the past.
The omission of DPS Meters won't matter much to the organized guilds. It will matter a lot to pugs and unorganized ones. It will widen the gap between players significantly.
Metas will appear the same way through the testing of influential youtuber and streamer dedicated to parsing and theory crafting
The thing is that many games already have a damage log, it should be easy for them to implement an easy display for it. They can make it person specific (no one can see the dmg from other people except when you are the group leader).
DPS meters have a place in games in my opinion, as long as you dont get isolated because you do mediocre dmg. Group/Raid leaders need dps meters to weed out the weak (people who dont carry their own weight if you know what i mean aka those that dont even do mediocre dmg and bring nothing else to the table)
Yes, but it is the person deciding what 'mediocre' is. And why should they settle for 'mediocre'?
All this does is lead to people being kicked in the search for the Elites. Now that doesn't mean this is the wrong perspective, as a Team Leader you really should want the best you have available.
What I'm arguing with is, this will never be used to find out who is doing 'less than mediocre'. The bar will be much higher than that, and everyone under it will be getting cut unless they fill a different role/function.
And to be fair, any Group Leader NOT doing that is actively hurting their entire Group. But I thought the idea of Ashes was to kick it a bit old school, breath some fresh air into the Genre, and not be an 'Open Guide, Read How To Dungeon, Then Go Dungeon' MMO... it was meant to be a 'Go Dungeon' MMO. All the Guides and Min/Max were the things people were blaming for ruining MMOs in the first place, for leading to Elitists being Gate Keepers of Content.
This doesn't mean Leaders shouldn't be looking to actively improve their group, but maybe the skill in that is being able to see and understand what is going on instead of looking at a meter and kicking everyone under a certain number. Maybe not having such info spoon-fed will separate those that have skill, from those that read spreadsheets prepared by others.
Maybe not everyone should not be a good Team Leader (though all should strive to be), just like everyone should not have the most Epic Flying Mount. We don't want this to be a Game where everyone does the same 3 Builds over the same 3 Classes, and we don't want this to be a game where every Dungeon is ruled by the same static set up.
There will be losses. There will be Dungeons and Raids dropped and failed. And there will be those that find the right people and put them together to make it past such hardships. That's part of what is supposed to set Ashes apart. It's supposed to be tough. Looking at DPS Meters and saying "That video said everyone under this number goes... so, they go" isn't very tough.
I should add that I would not mind at all a personal DPS meter. Mainly because this helps catch Bugs. If I read my things out and see I should be doing 300 Damage, and I smack a thing and do 900 Damage... I'm going to want to know WHY that happened. Same if I hit it for 50 Damage.
It could be something simple... Weakness to my Element, or Heavy Armor. Or it could be that it's wrong and broken, and I need to report it.
It does also allow me to find my sweet spots. I may be sacrificing Damage for some other things, but that doesn't mean I don't want any damage. I still want the damage I do to come out efficiently and effectively. For instance, I may have an Ability that does Target Damage, but has a Splash Effect that heals Friendly Units that are in a Melee Range of the Target. So a Heal for my Front Line that procs when I Damage their Front Line, or a Heal for my Rouge who has dove their Wizard in the backline... while still being aggressive toward the Target. I wouldn't expect this to be a Nuke, since it has a Heal... it's Utility. But I'm still going to want to build for my Utility to either be "Damage First" (especially if the Heal scales off the Damage dealt), or "Utility First". And if it's Damage First, then I'm looking for all the other things I might can do (Procs, Crit, Armor Pen, etc.) to elevate that Damage DESPITE knowing next to your Ability that is the same but took Splash Damage instead of Splash Heal, I'm not going to keep up in the DPS (and you shouldn't keep up in the Healing).
So absolutely DPS Meters can be a good thing, for these two reasons. But it's these two reasons COMBINED. Because I can just eyeball this with skill, go back and change ONE thing in the build, same target. See what the difference is. But then I can't spot a Bug as easily that could lead me to the wrong answer (well, correct at the time but only correct because of a bug... which will be wrong once that is fixed).
Alright it's taken me a while to pour over my thoughts on this topic so I suppose I'll throw my 2 cents in. This is from the perspective of a WoW Heroic Raider since Wrath and Heroic/Mythic guild leader since Legion and Aion 1.0-3.0 raider.
Firstly I will address WoWs Recount tool because that is the tool I'm most familiar with with reference to Warcraft Logs as relevant. WoWs tools are great for what WoW is and that is to day WoW has always been a numbers game, because WoW started off simple enough mechanically that the way your guild would clear things faster wasn't by having mechanically inclined players but by having bigger numbers. So in this vain Recount was great. It provided real time, accurate, and meaningful measurements to make sure you were parsing well. Meanwhile Logs provided the necessary information for things like what waves of incoming damage were leading to player deaths and what members were struggling mechanically and exactly why they might not be parsing where expected (through monitoring exact rotations and CD usage.) This is all amazing information for the most competitive and the most numerically inclined in a numbers game.
Now here's why I think AoC should not have a dps meter of any kind. Ashes is not a numbers game. It's design and pillars are not intended for e-sports, or for world firsts, or for minmaxxing. That is something the community will just have to come to terms with when it comes to the design direction the team has repeatedly mentioned. This is a community focused game from its cities to its crafting to its dang world building. This is why they aren't focused on balancing every class to within an inch of one another. This is why they have set difficulty bosses. This is why the dungeons are built into the world and very rarely instanced for controlled precise full clears with defined resets. This isn't a numbers game. Even at the very top level game play it's going to be more reminiscent of Vanilla and TBC raiding where everyone has the correct resistances and you have the right class compositions for specific fights. Your team makeup will make a far greater impact than %5 damage.
There will always be minmaxxers, people that race world/region/server firsts, and people that will insist they need to know exact numbers so much to optimize that %1-%5 damage output that they will create/use 3rd party meters. Intrepid does not need to design around this minority of players. As Intrepid have stated they do not want or intend on allowing 3rd party add-ons to the game so the latter people mentioned above would be breaking ToS and it is the communities responsibility to report these players. As for the others mentioned they will use the following very typical method of optimization...
For those that want to optimize there's a simple solution. Find you a training dummy and hit it. This could be a mob in the same creature type as the boss you intend to fight. It could be the mobs you farm for your trade skills (help your local skinners and tailors). Or it could be your friend, they can swap into whatever resist gear or provide a worthy mechanic challenge whatever.
If you can't tell the difference when you hit your training dummy with one specialized skill vs another, guess what! You have this magical thing called 🌈Personal Choice🌈
Trust me, as a Heroic level raider who has lead my own guilds, if you are smart enough to stay alive and hit the fire boss with anything but a fireball then I have no reason to be mad. The thing will die eventually.
Optimization does not mean you need a DPS meter to squeeze every percent out of a build.
Lastly I do not think DPS meters are worth the social pressure and anxiety it falsely injects into the game for the %95 of players who truly do not need to worry about being the best of the best. I have had many players come to me saying that their own numbers (that are good enough for me and my co-gms) are too low for them personally and they either had to change their gameplay entirely or leave the team because they were too stressed or anxious about their numbers to enjoy the game. This is heartbreaking for me as someone who loves the social aspects of MMOs and feels they are best with people who mesh well and not just the made for the competitive players.
TL:DR This pretty much sums up my thoughts on how I think Ashes and Intrepid should approach a DPS Meter. While it is a useful tool, and not necessarily inherently toxic it is not worth the cost to the vision of this game. Though I think a Logs level detailed explanation of fights for the raid leader could be useful to expedite progress on encounters if that is the desired outcome.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And to be fair, any Group Leader NOT doing that is actively hurting their entire Group.
Only for folk who highly value being as efficient as possible.
For those for whom group cohesion is more important than uber-efficiency, obsessing over efficiency actively hurts the entire group.
But I thought the idea of Ashes was to kick it a bit old school, breath some fresh air into the Genre, and not be an 'Open Guide, Read How To Dungeon, Then Go Dungeon' MMO... it was meant to be a 'Go Dungeon' MMO. All the Guides and Min/Max were the things people were blaming for ruining MMOs in the first place, for leading to Elitists being Gate Keepers of Content.
This doesn't mean Leaders shouldn't be looking to actively improve their group, but maybe the skill in that is being able to see and understand what is going on instead of looking at a meter and kicking everyone under a certain number. Maybe not having such info spoon-fed will separate those that have skill, from those that read spreadsheets prepared by others.
I mean, we both know that won't happen. Organized raid teams will find a way to evaluate the contribution of a player beforehand. With or without a combat tracker.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
If you are talking about raid guilds, then not necessarily.
We will recruit someone based on their personality and performance. We dont much care what build they are running with, though we will take their gear in to consideration (if they join the guild, the assumption is that their gear will improve). If they are able to perform well with their gear, we will let them in, happily.
From there, if they want to experiment with a new build, they are more than welcome. Even WITH a combat tracker, you cant accurately assess a new build on raid content without taking that build along on raid content - as combat does function differently in raids - even if only slightly.
As such, a guild run ing combat trackers will often have someone running an untested build. In EQ2 we were probably running 3 or 4 untested builds per week. Some worked, some didnt. The thing us, each untested build we ran meant we learned something new.
The notion that top end guilds lock players in to a hyper specific build is just false.
Ashes is set to have a system whereby an encounter has its difficulty increased based on how well you did on previous encounters. This increase in difficulty will also come with an increase in loot.
You must know that all metrics that relate to how well you do on content are basic numbers that a combat tracker can communicate.
WoW has no such system, I am sure you are aware.
Based on this one piece of information, it seems to me that raiding in Ashes is even MORE of a numbers game than raiding in WoW is.
At the very least, it can be said that numbers are as important in each - but absolutely no less important in Ashes. I mean, could you imagine running a raiding guild in a game where the loot you receive is based on how well you do, yet you are given no indication as to how well you are doing?
Ashes is set to have a system whereby an encounter has its difficulty increased based on how well you did on previous encounters. This increase in difficulty will also come with an increase in loot.
You must know that all metrics that relate to how well you do on content are basic numbers that a combat tracker can communicate...it seems to me that raiding in Ashes is even MORE of a numbers game than raiding in WoW is... - but absolutely no less important in Ashes. I mean, could you imagine running a raiding guild in a game where the loot you receive is based on how well you do, yet you are given no indication as to how well you are doing?
@Noaani
You are making assumptions based on a system you don't know the eccentricities of. You assume that everything Ashes is considering for performance on previous encounters is based on things tools can tell you and not things you can see with your eyes. A DPS meter is the least mandatory thing to a current raid environment, even to WoW. If the boss is a damage check either you go in for the week and you play it perfectly you either beat it or you don't. If you don't then everyone goes and gets more gear for the week and you do it again. But have you progressed in high level raid content? Because %90+ of progression, in WoW specifically is getting your raid to the point where 25 people perfectly execute on patterns and mechanics. If you have a guild that %100 slams mechanics out of the park every time then it doesn't matter what your gear is for all fights sans maybe one or two a tier.
Mechanics are more important. And I don't claim to know how AoCs system for rewarding performance is going to work. But I guarantee they can design a system that promotes more teamwork and communication over caring about some uptime. I would be shocked if the system rewarded a kill that was faster by ~15 seconds over a group that killed the boss in 5-10 less attempts in the first place.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
The thing is that many games already have a damage log, it should be easy for them to implement an easy display for it. They can make it person specific (no one can see the dmg from other people except when you are the group leader).
DPS meters have a place in games in my opinion, as long as you dont get isolated because you do mediocre dmg. Group/Raid leaders need dps meters to weed out the weak (people who dont carry their own weight if you know what i mean aka those that dont even do mediocre dmg and bring nothing else to the table)
Yes, but it is the person deciding what 'mediocre' is. And why should they settle for 'mediocre'?
All this does is lead to people being kicked in the search for the Elites. Now that doesn't mean this is the wrong perspective, as a Team Leader you really should want the best you have available.
What I'm arguing with is, this will never be used to find out who is doing 'less than mediocre'. The bar will be much higher than that, and everyone under it will be getting cut unless they fill a different role/function.
And to be fair, any Group Leader NOT doing that is actively hurting their entire Group. But I thought the idea of Ashes was to kick it a bit old school, breath some fresh air into the Genre, and not be an 'Open Guide, Read How To Dungeon, Then Go Dungeon' MMO... it was meant to be a 'Go Dungeon' MMO. All the Guides and Min/Max were the things people were blaming for ruining MMOs in the first place, for leading to Elitists being Gate Keepers of Content.
This doesn't mean Leaders shouldn't be looking to actively improve their group, but maybe the skill in that is being able to see and understand what is going on instead of looking at a meter and kicking everyone under a certain number. Maybe not having such info spoon-fed will separate those that have skill, from those that read spreadsheets prepared by others.
Maybe not everyone should not be a good Team Leader (though all should strive to be), just like everyone should not have the most Epic Flying Mount. We don't want this to be a Game where everyone does the same 3 Builds over the same 3 Classes, and we don't want this to be a game where every Dungeon is ruled by the same static set up.
There will be losses. There will be Dungeons and Raids dropped and failed. And there will be those that find the right people and put them together to make it past such hardships. That's part of what is supposed to set Ashes apart. It's supposed to be tough. Looking at DPS Meters and saying "That video said everyone under this number goes... so, they go" isn't very tough.
Tell me WoW is your only real MMO experience without telling me WoW is your only real MMO experience.
First point, a group leader will only kick those under a specific number - as you suggest - if they know they are able to easily replace them. This is why this is an issue in WoW and not in other MMO's - other MMO's simply do not allow for players in groups to be replaced that quickly. This is why it is blatantly obvious that WoW is your only real MMO experience.
Based on this one fact alone, assuming Ashes has no family summons, the phenomenon of groups booting people mid content to replace them simply won't be a thing in Ashes. Any arguments against combat trackers that are based on this are simply unfounded.
So, let's just ignore them, shall we?
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
Well failures could be a number of things.
Tank didn't use the right mitigation skills, sucks at blocking, has bad positioning, steps into every AoE.
Healers don't use the right healing spell. Healers die because Tank pointed the boss the wrong way. Healer simply had bad positioning and couldn't hit his heal from too far away.
Now tell me how a DPS meter tells you about this?
Non min maxed damage is the least of the reasons why a raid fails, unless there is an absolutely draconian DPS check.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tell me WoW is your only real MMO experience without telling me WoW is your only real MMO experience.
First point, a group leader will only kick those under a specific number - as you suggest - if they know they are able to easily replace them. This is why this is an issue in WoW and not in other MMO's - other MMO's simply do not allow for players in groups to be replaced that quickly. This is why it is blatantly obvious that WoW is your only real MMO experience.
It happens more in NWO than it does in WoW. So, it's not just a WoW experience.
We currently have no way of determining whether no fast travel in shes is enough of a deterrent for replacing unwanted raid memembers who's performance seems sub-par to a Group Leader obsessed with pursuing the META.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tank didn't use the right mitigation skills, sucks at blocking, has bad positioning, steps into every AoE.
Healers don't use the right healing spell. Healers die because Tank pointed the boss the wrong way. Healer simply had bad positioning and couldn't hit his heal from too far away.
Now tell me how a DPS meter tells you about this?
Non min maxed damage is the least of the reasons why a raid fails, unless there is an absolutely draconian DPS check.
I think Noaani will say that a combat tracker/DPS meter provides more info than just highest DPS.
But, yes... doesn't have to be about just one person being a failure at something, it can be about the group as whole adjust how they synergize their abilities and tactics.
Especially since the types of mobs in a raid are designed to change from session to session.
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
Well failures could be a number of things.
Tank didn't use the right mitigation skills, sucks at blocking, has bad positioning, steps into every AoE.
Healers don't use the right healing spell. Healers die because Tank pointed the boss the wrong way. Healer simply had bad positioning and couldn't hit his heal from too far away.
Now tell me how a DPS meter tells you about this?
Simple.
Look at the incoming damage the tank recieves, if every AoE is on there, you know he is being hit by them. If the tank is getting hit by larger amounts of physical mitigation than he should, or doesn't have periods where it is substantially lower comparatively, you know they are not using mitigation skills properly. If the tank has a low rate of successful blocks, you know they are not blocking properly.
If the healers are using the wrong healing spell, well, you can see the name of every healing spell in ACT, so that's a no-brainer. If the tank has the mob positioned incorrectly, you can see the people being hit by the attacks that positioning is intended to prevent. If only one non-tank group member is getting hit by those same attacks, you know it was that one group member, not the tanks positioning.
I mean, these are all basic combat tracker use cases. These are LITERALLY the things a combat tracker is created to communicate to players.
Tell me WoW is your only real MMO experience without telling me WoW is your only real MMO experience.
First point, a group leader will only kick those under a specific number - as you suggest - if they know they are able to easily replace them. This is why this is an issue in WoW and not in other MMO's - other MMO's simply do not allow for players in groups to be replaced that quickly. This is why it is blatantly obvious that WoW is your only real MMO experience.
It happens more in NWO than it does in WoW. So, it's not just a WoW experience.
We currently have no way of determining whether no fast travel in shes is enough of a deterrent for replacing unwanted raid memembers who's performance seems sub-par to a Group Leader obsessed with pursuing the META.
What we do know is that without a means of fast travel, a person in a group or raid can not be easily replaced. I mean, open dungeons have this habit of respawning mobs between where the entrance is and where the players are.
Thus, the leader has the decision to make, is the group or raid better off with an empty spot, or with this underperforming person?
If the person is so bad that the group is better off with an empty spot, I'd like to see any kind of defense of that person.
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
Well failures could be a number of things.
Tank didn't use the right mitigation skills, sucks at blocking, has bad positioning, steps into every AoE.
Healers don't use the right healing spell. Healers die because Tank pointed the boss the wrong way. Healer simply had bad positioning and couldn't hit his heal from too far away.
Now tell me how a DPS meter tells you about this?
Simple.
Look at the incoming damage the tank recieves, if every AoE is on there, you know he is being hit by them. If the tank is getting hit by larger amounts of physical mitigation than he should, or doesn't have periods where it is substantially lower comparatively, you know they are not using mitigation skills properly. If the tank has a low rate of successful blocks, you know they are not blocking properly.
If the healers are using the wrong healing spell, well, you can see the name of every healing spell in ACT, so that's a no-brainer. If the tank has the mob positioned incorrectly, you can see the people being hit by the attacks that positioning is intended to prevent. If only one non-tank group member is getting hit by those same attacks, you know it was that one group member, not the tanks positioning.
I mean, these are all basic combat tracker use cases. These are LITERALLY the things a combat tracker is created to communicate to players.
I disagree on the principle of what the Tracker does. The tracker automates these things, which you could --as a wise leader of the men in your raiding group -- observe with your own eyes.
You don't need the tracker to see if your tank keeps getting his health bar decimated, or that no one is filling it back up with healing spells.
Thus, what will ultimately remain of the combat tracker is the DPS meter, indicating to you which player to kick for sub-par damage (the standard of sub-par being here a subjective metric).
I agree that replacement of a player whilst in the raid is nearly impossible in Ashes, short of family summons. However raid groups can also call it quits, return to town, kick the players from their group and recruit new ones to try again.
2
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What we do know is that without a means of fast travel, a person in a group or raid can not be easily replaced.
All we know is that they won't be as easily relplaced as with fast travel.
And that is not enough info for your argument to be convincing.
I mean, it is enough info.
The greater the barrier it is for a new player to be bought in to a group, the greater the incentive is to run with what you have.
While we do not have all the info on exactly how much harder it will be to bring in a new player, and thus how much more likely it is that a group will not boot players mid content, all that does is leave the discussion with being a case of how much less likely it is that players will indeed be booted from groups mid content.
The argument that WoW levels of this will happen in Ashes is a non-starter, we are simply left with that discussion as to how much less of it will happen.
So sure, the lack of fast travel is a massive influence here. That will see it happen much less. But then you can add to that the fact that dungeons in Ashes are open, and thus respawn. If you are going to bring in a new player mid content, you will NEED to meet them at the entrance to said dungeon - meaning the group or raid needs to start again from the beginning.
Then you have the PvP factor. A single player moving towards a group or raid area that is likely to be frequented by rivals is a fairly easy target for others to take out. This may mean that even if the group or raid is waiting for this new player at the start of the dungeon, the player may have issues even getting to that location. The group or raid may need to go out to meet them to even get them to that group or dungeon entrance.
If this is a raid, and the raid dungeon is within a group dungeon (as has been suggested as a possibility), then the raid will have to leave the raid dungeon, go to the start of the group dungeon and meet the player there. They may even have to leave that group dungeon to assist said player with other potential issues as above.
These are all things that are significantly more likely to be issues than not. If you are able to put some thought in to that and still come up with the idea that it will be common that people will be booted from groups mid content then I am unsure what to tell you.
I disagree on the principle of what the Tracker does. The tracker automates these things, which you could --as a wise leader of the men in your raiding group -- observe with your own eyes.
As someone that has been using combat trackers for about two decades, assisted in creating several trackers, and created plug ins for ACT, you can disagree on what a tracker does all you like.
You will be objectively wrong on that count, but you are welcome to be wrong.
You don't need the tracker to see if your tank keeps getting his health bar decimated, or that no one is filling it back up with healing spells.
If you are looking at your tank closely enough to know if his health is going down due to the mobs AoE, melee attack, barrage, or a hidden player attacking him, then you are not focusing enough on your role within the group or raid.
If you are able to focus well enough on your role, and are still able to see all of what is happening to your tank, and to your healer, then you have content and combat that is so easy that a combat tracker isn't needed.
I personally hope for better than that from Ashes.
Thus, what will ultimately remain of the combat tracker is the DPS meter, indicating to you which player to kick for sub-par damage (the standard of sub-par being here a subjective metric).
If this has not happened to be in nearly 20 years, why would you think it would happen now.
In my time in gaming, I have literally kicked one player from a group or raid. That was because they were not curing ailments as per the instructions given to them, causing 20 consecutive wipes (player was booted, we world first killed the encounter on the next pull).
I have literally never kicked a player for low DPS. I have never even SEEN it happen. Not even one time. Not in pick up groups, not in pick up raids, and definitely not in any group setting.
I agree that replacement of a player whilst in the raid is nearly impossible in Ashes, short of family summons. However raid groups can also call it quits, return to town, kick the players from their group and recruit new ones to try again.
Think about this for a minute.
Imagine you are running that group or raid. You are not being all that successful, and you know it is because a portion of the group or raid are not up to par for the content you are on.
If you feel that the group or raid as a whole is still good enough to take on the content that you formed said group or raid to take on, why on earth would you go back to town - which involves travel time and potential PvP - reform the group or raid - which involves time - and then travel back to the place you just came from - which again involves travel time and potential PvP?
Literally the only reason you would do that is if the group or raid as you have it now is not good enough to take on the content you want to kill. If they are good enough as a whole, then you would push onward, because that is the most efficient thing to do.
You would only follow your suggestion above if there was no way the group or raid was able to take on the intended content. If this is the case, is it not in literally everyone's best interest that the group or raid be dissolved then and there? Even if a portion of that group or raid want to try again...
However, it is only true because in a game like WoW, the combat system is so damn simple that a four year old can master a class.
You can't create any challenge that is based purely on WoW's combat system, because there is no challenge in that combat system. This is why mechanics are what WoW raids lean on to add challenge. Other games lean more on the combat system for that challenge, often throwing in chaotic elements to encounters rather than requiring perfect execution of what basically amounts to a Dance Dance Revolution routine, as WoW requires.
While it is true that we do not know the metric that Ashes will use to determine how they will increase the difficulty of mobs, what we DO know is that what ever metric it is, a combat tracker will assist players with it. It could well be that they use how many wipes the raid had on the previous encounter, but it could also be that they only take the successful pull in to consideration.
In fact, a combat tracker may even be the only way of knowing objectively what metrics are being looked at. If the developers don't outright tell us, this is guaranteed to be the case.
The thing is that many games already have a damage log, it should be easy for them to implement an easy display for it. They can make it person specific (no one can see the dmg from other people except when you are the group leader).
DPS meters have a place in games in my opinion, as long as you dont get isolated because you do mediocre dmg. Group/Raid leaders need dps meters to weed out the weak (people who dont carry their own weight if you know what i mean aka those that dont even do mediocre dmg and bring nothing else to the table)
Yes, but it is the person deciding what 'mediocre' is. And why should they settle for 'mediocre'?
All this does is lead to people being kicked in the search for the Elites. Now that doesn't mean this is the wrong perspective, as a Team Leader you really should want the best you have available.
What I'm arguing with is, this will never be used to find out who is doing 'less than mediocre'. The bar will be much higher than that, and everyone under it will be getting cut unless they fill a different role/function.
And to be fair, any Group Leader NOT doing that is actively hurting their entire Group. But I thought the idea of Ashes was to kick it a bit old school, breath some fresh air into the Genre, and not be an 'Open Guide, Read How To Dungeon, Then Go Dungeon' MMO... it was meant to be a 'Go Dungeon' MMO. All the Guides and Min/Max were the things people were blaming for ruining MMOs in the first place, for leading to Elitists being Gate Keepers of Content.
This doesn't mean Leaders shouldn't be looking to actively improve their group, but maybe the skill in that is being able to see and understand what is going on instead of looking at a meter and kicking everyone under a certain number. Maybe not having such info spoon-fed will separate those that have skill, from those that read spreadsheets prepared by others.
Maybe not everyone should not be a good Team Leader (though all should strive to be), just like everyone should not have the most Epic Flying Mount. We don't want this to be a Game where everyone does the same 3 Builds over the same 3 Classes, and we don't want this to be a game where every Dungeon is ruled by the same static set up.
There will be losses. There will be Dungeons and Raids dropped and failed. And there will be those that find the right people and put them together to make it past such hardships. That's part of what is supposed to set Ashes apart. It's supposed to be tough. Looking at DPS Meters and saying "That video said everyone under this number goes... so, they go" isn't very tough.
Tell me WoW is your only real MMO experience without telling me WoW is your only real MMO experience.
First point, a group leader will only kick those under a specific number - as you suggest - if they know they are able to easily replace them. This is why this is an issue in WoW and not in other MMO's - other MMO's simply do not allow for players in groups to be replaced that quickly. This is why it is blatantly obvious that WoW is your only real MMO experience.
Based on this one fact alone, assuming Ashes has no family summons, the phenomenon of groups booting people mid content to replace them simply won't be a thing in Ashes. Any arguments against combat trackers that are based on this are simply unfounded.
So, let's just ignore them, shall we?
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
WoW is probably my least played MMO. I played Never Winter Nights when it was 2D Top Down on America Online. I played the current NWN. I played Mortal, I've played Mortal II. I played Guild Wars. I played New World. Yes, I've played WoW. I play Entropia Universe.
You're confusing kicking people mid Raid with Gatekeeping. Raid is done, numbers are checked, names are marked off lists. You don't know the numbers fully until the Raid is done. What I said was, when it's done and numbers get looked at, those under a certain threshold get kicked. You don't kick people for lacking damage MID RAID, you kick people for pulling Mobs they aren't supposed to, or triggering Mechanics they aren't supposed to that lead to Wipes. Because just not doing a lot of damage, that's still more damage than an empty slot, so as long as they aren't actively wiping your group you wouldn't kick Mid Raid.
Tell me you make a lot of assumptions without telling me you make a lot of assumptions. You have no clue about my MMO experience, and you didn't ask. You could have asked, you should have asked.
What I'm talking about is DPS Meters setting a benchmark for Numbers that then lead to Gate Keeping Content which then becomes META.
And how can a Raid Leader do his job without Meters? Same way we did back in the 90's, before we had all those meters. Pay attention to what is going on. Have the knowledge of what the abilities are, what they look like, watch your Team to see what they are doing. Is Ranged DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that by watching them. Is Melee DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that, by watching them. Are Heals doing their job? You can see that... can you guess how you can see that? Guess.
It's a skill. Looking at the visuals, watching your group. It takes a LOT of knowledge, you have to know what these things look like. You have to understand why the rotations are what they are. And if something new is happening, you have to be looking at the reasoning for it and how that influences the action.
You do realize MMOs were a thing BEFORE Trackers were a thing, right? There was a time we did these things WITHOUT Trackers. And no, not every one has this kind of skill. Nor should everyone. If everyone can just be a Top Raid Leader, then no one is a Top Raid Leader.
Also, take this into consideration. I spec my Abilities to lower Defense. I'm casting the same Fire Ball you are. Mine does less damage than yours. But because of this EVERYONE in the Raid now does more damage... more than offsets my lack of damage. But some lazy Leader looks, sees you have more Damage than me, doesn't understand the Team is doing more Damage BECAUSE of me.
The idea is to get away from Lazy Meter Reading. The idea is to get back to UNDERSTANDING WHY a Player is going with a certain set up, and what that brings.
You don't need Meters to be a Good Raid Leader. In fact, some would argue if you need Meters you can't be a Good Raid Leader.
Comments
@Sygmund
In what way are combat trackers a pest?
What is it you expect to not see if they magically did not exist in Ashes?
are meters being pests in terms of cluttering UI? I agree - meters shouldn't be visible during combat - it just detracts from actual gameplay
are meters being pests in terms of too much outside preparation? If so - aren't discord servers too much as well? aren't guides in general too much of outside preparation? Why is a tool that aids with understanding of game mechanics too much, but a tool that helps with running a guild is not? How is a walkthrough on achieving something in the game ok then? How is having a wiki about the game ok then?
― Plato
It is an easy target, and more, a target from the anger... This tools show, factually, objectively that you are bad... this is why it get hate, and on FFXIV forum, people against it are mostly in green-gray parse on FFlogs. . .
To be honest, personally, i would more about forbidding any kind of build guide, and have a combat tracker.
Guides makes people worse and worse. They stop to thinking by themselves. They go to icyveins, maxroll, or anywhere they can find their builds, follow what those guides says to the letter without even the will to understand.
Sure not all are just "dumbly reading guides"... But for most people "because this is a game" they don't want to invest the time dedicated to understand, they come play leave.
Because they consider that test themselves and time dedicated to understand is wasted. But doesnt change that without any effort to understand (which is what guides allowed) people never gets better.
This would actually resolve a number of the things many players have falsely attributed to combat trackers. They are all made up issues, but if there were no build guides posted, people wouldn't be able to complain about even those made up issues.
I see it the other way around: "Oh you see how this one class seems to now be pumping the biggest damage. Sorry Timmy as the raid leader I'm gonna ask you to go reroll this class, so that we can be optimal. No I don't care that it takes you a week to level your secondary archetype. Do it or you're out of the raid, because this new class we just saw parsing as top 1, is now the meta."
Whereas without a DPS meter, it would be: "Well, I have no idea if your class is met or not, because I can't check your numbers, so you play whatever you want, so long as I don't see you slacking off."
That's what personal and enough anecdotal evidence to become empirical has shown me over the years.
So, my guess is that there should be some core system in-game to really pay this off, like times in dungeons, etc. Would the game have this kind of stuff? Should it? idk
As that raid leader, I disagree.
If someone shows up to a raid with a spec I have not seen, if it performs, why would I care? It literally makes no sense at all for me to ask them to change. Sure, a spec may do 5% more DPS in a testing environment, but I dont care about that 5% from one character, and I am also more than aware that in a non- testing environment that 5% deficit could well go the other way.
Whereas without a combat tracker, if I have no idea of knowing if your build is 5% or 50% below what I consider to be par, you had better believe I would ask you to spec to a build I have had success with.
The fastest way to waste untold hours worth of player time is to take a raid of unknown builds along on to top end content.
From my position, it is actually irresponsible of a raid leader to do this, they risk wasting too much combined player time if things dont work
I mean, we both know that won't happen. Organized raid teams will find a way to evaluate the contribution of a player beforehand. With or without a combat tracker.
They'll evaluate the build, the gear and do a short combat test the same way we have seen in a plethora of other games. They take you to certain mob type/miniboss and watch how quickly you can murder it, then they compare it to the speeds they know from other players.
The same way, they will to try to optimize their build, whether there's a DPS Meter or not. We have seen this dozens of times in the past.
The omission of DPS Meters won't matter much to the organized guilds. It will matter a lot to pugs and unorganized ones. It will widen the gap between players significantly.
Metas will appear the same way through the testing of influential youtuber and streamer dedicated to parsing and theory crafting
Yes, but it is the person deciding what 'mediocre' is. And why should they settle for 'mediocre'?
All this does is lead to people being kicked in the search for the Elites. Now that doesn't mean this is the wrong perspective, as a Team Leader you really should want the best you have available.
What I'm arguing with is, this will never be used to find out who is doing 'less than mediocre'. The bar will be much higher than that, and everyone under it will be getting cut unless they fill a different role/function.
And to be fair, any Group Leader NOT doing that is actively hurting their entire Group. But I thought the idea of Ashes was to kick it a bit old school, breath some fresh air into the Genre, and not be an 'Open Guide, Read How To Dungeon, Then Go Dungeon' MMO... it was meant to be a 'Go Dungeon' MMO. All the Guides and Min/Max were the things people were blaming for ruining MMOs in the first place, for leading to Elitists being Gate Keepers of Content.
This doesn't mean Leaders shouldn't be looking to actively improve their group, but maybe the skill in that is being able to see and understand what is going on instead of looking at a meter and kicking everyone under a certain number. Maybe not having such info spoon-fed will separate those that have skill, from those that read spreadsheets prepared by others.
Maybe not everyone should not be a good Team Leader (though all should strive to be), just like everyone should not have the most Epic Flying Mount. We don't want this to be a Game where everyone does the same 3 Builds over the same 3 Classes, and we don't want this to be a game where every Dungeon is ruled by the same static set up.
There will be losses. There will be Dungeons and Raids dropped and failed. And there will be those that find the right people and put them together to make it past such hardships. That's part of what is supposed to set Ashes apart. It's supposed to be tough. Looking at DPS Meters and saying "That video said everyone under this number goes... so, they go" isn't very tough.
It could be something simple... Weakness to my Element, or Heavy Armor. Or it could be that it's wrong and broken, and I need to report it.
It does also allow me to find my sweet spots. I may be sacrificing Damage for some other things, but that doesn't mean I don't want any damage. I still want the damage I do to come out efficiently and effectively. For instance, I may have an Ability that does Target Damage, but has a Splash Effect that heals Friendly Units that are in a Melee Range of the Target. So a Heal for my Front Line that procs when I Damage their Front Line, or a Heal for my Rouge who has dove their Wizard in the backline... while still being aggressive toward the Target. I wouldn't expect this to be a Nuke, since it has a Heal... it's Utility. But I'm still going to want to build for my Utility to either be "Damage First" (especially if the Heal scales off the Damage dealt), or "Utility First". And if it's Damage First, then I'm looking for all the other things I might can do (Procs, Crit, Armor Pen, etc.) to elevate that Damage DESPITE knowing next to your Ability that is the same but took Splash Damage instead of Splash Heal, I'm not going to keep up in the DPS (and you shouldn't keep up in the Healing).
So absolutely DPS Meters can be a good thing, for these two reasons. But it's these two reasons COMBINED. Because I can just eyeball this with skill, go back and change ONE thing in the build, same target. See what the difference is. But then I can't spot a Bug as easily that could lead me to the wrong answer (well, correct at the time but only correct because of a bug... which will be wrong once that is fixed).
Firstly I will address WoWs Recount tool because that is the tool I'm most familiar with with reference to Warcraft Logs as relevant. WoWs tools are great for what WoW is and that is to day WoW has always been a numbers game, because WoW started off simple enough mechanically that the way your guild would clear things faster wasn't by having mechanically inclined players but by having bigger numbers. So in this vain Recount was great. It provided real time, accurate, and meaningful measurements to make sure you were parsing well. Meanwhile Logs provided the necessary information for things like what waves of incoming damage were leading to player deaths and what members were struggling mechanically and exactly why they might not be parsing where expected (through monitoring exact rotations and CD usage.) This is all amazing information for the most competitive and the most numerically inclined in a numbers game.
Now here's why I think AoC should not have a dps meter of any kind. Ashes is not a numbers game. It's design and pillars are not intended for e-sports, or for world firsts, or for minmaxxing. That is something the community will just have to come to terms with when it comes to the design direction the team has repeatedly mentioned. This is a community focused game from its cities to its crafting to its dang world building. This is why they aren't focused on balancing every class to within an inch of one another. This is why they have set difficulty bosses. This is why the dungeons are built into the world and very rarely instanced for controlled precise full clears with defined resets. This isn't a numbers game. Even at the very top level game play it's going to be more reminiscent of Vanilla and TBC raiding where everyone has the correct resistances and you have the right class compositions for specific fights. Your team makeup will make a far greater impact than %5 damage.
There will always be minmaxxers, people that race world/region/server firsts, and people that will insist they need to know exact numbers so much to optimize that %1-%5 damage output that they will create/use 3rd party meters. Intrepid does not need to design around this minority of players. As Intrepid have stated they do not want or intend on allowing 3rd party add-ons to the game so the latter people mentioned above would be breaking ToS and it is the communities responsibility to report these players. As for the others mentioned they will use the following very typical method of optimization...
For those that want to optimize there's a simple solution. Find you a training dummy and hit it. This could be a mob in the same creature type as the boss you intend to fight. It could be the mobs you farm for your trade skills (help your local skinners and tailors). Or it could be your friend, they can swap into whatever resist gear or provide a worthy mechanic challenge whatever.
If you can't tell the difference when you hit your training dummy with one specialized skill vs another, guess what! You have this magical thing called 🌈Personal Choice🌈
Trust me, as a Heroic level raider who has lead my own guilds, if you are smart enough to stay alive and hit the fire boss with anything but a fireball then I have no reason to be mad. The thing will die eventually.
Optimization does not mean you need a DPS meter to squeeze every percent out of a build.
Lastly I do not think DPS meters are worth the social pressure and anxiety it falsely injects into the game for the %95 of players who truly do not need to worry about being the best of the best. I have had many players come to me saying that their own numbers (that are good enough for me and my co-gms) are too low for them personally and they either had to change their gameplay entirely or leave the team because they were too stressed or anxious about their numbers to enjoy the game. This is heartbreaking for me as someone who loves the social aspects of MMOs and feels they are best with people who mesh well and not just the made for the competitive players.
TL:DR This pretty much sums up my thoughts on how I think Ashes and Intrepid should approach a DPS Meter. While it is a useful tool, and not necessarily inherently toxic it is not worth the cost to the vision of this game. Though I think a Logs level detailed explanation of fights for the raid leader could be useful to expedite progress on encounters if that is the desired outcome.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
For those for whom group cohesion is more important than uber-efficiency, obsessing over efficiency actively hurts the entire group.
True.
Exactly.
True.
If you are talking about raid guilds, then not necessarily.
We will recruit someone based on their personality and performance. We dont much care what build they are running with, though we will take their gear in to consideration (if they join the guild, the assumption is that their gear will improve). If they are able to perform well with their gear, we will let them in, happily.
From there, if they want to experiment with a new build, they are more than welcome. Even WITH a combat tracker, you cant accurately assess a new build on raid content without taking that build along on raid content - as combat does function differently in raids - even if only slightly.
As such, a guild run ing combat trackers will often have someone running an untested build. In EQ2 we were probably running 3 or 4 untested builds per week. Some worked, some didnt. The thing us, each untested build we ran meant we learned something new.
The notion that top end guilds lock players in to a hyper specific build is just false.
@GethOverlord
Ashes is set to have a system whereby an encounter has its difficulty increased based on how well you did on previous encounters. This increase in difficulty will also come with an increase in loot.
You must know that all metrics that relate to how well you do on content are basic numbers that a combat tracker can communicate.
WoW has no such system, I am sure you are aware.
Based on this one piece of information, it seems to me that raiding in Ashes is even MORE of a numbers game than raiding in WoW is.
At the very least, it can be said that numbers are as important in each - but absolutely no less important in Ashes. I mean, could you imagine running a raiding guild in a game where the loot you receive is based on how well you do, yet you are given no indication as to how well you are doing?
You are making assumptions based on a system you don't know the eccentricities of. You assume that everything Ashes is considering for performance on previous encounters is based on things tools can tell you and not things you can see with your eyes. A DPS meter is the least mandatory thing to a current raid environment, even to WoW. If the boss is a damage check either you go in for the week and you play it perfectly you either beat it or you don't. If you don't then everyone goes and gets more gear for the week and you do it again. But have you progressed in high level raid content? Because %90+ of progression, in WoW specifically is getting your raid to the point where 25 people perfectly execute on patterns and mechanics. If you have a guild that %100 slams mechanics out of the park every time then it doesn't matter what your gear is for all fights sans maybe one or two a tier.
Mechanics are more important. And I don't claim to know how AoCs system for rewarding performance is going to work. But I guarantee they can design a system that promotes more teamwork and communication over caring about some uptime. I would be shocked if the system rewarded a kill that was faster by ~15 seconds over a group that killed the boss in 5-10 less attempts in the first place.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
@TheClimbTo1
Tell me WoW is your only real MMO experience without telling me WoW is your only real MMO experience.
First point, a group leader will only kick those under a specific number - as you suggest - if they know they are able to easily replace them. This is why this is an issue in WoW and not in other MMO's - other MMO's simply do not allow for players in groups to be replaced that quickly. This is why it is blatantly obvious that WoW is your only real MMO experience.
Based on this one fact alone, assuming Ashes has no family summons, the phenomenon of groups booting people mid content to replace them simply won't be a thing in Ashes. Any arguments against combat trackers that are based on this are simply unfounded.
So, let's just ignore them, shall we?
As to the basics of the rest of your post, you agree that it is up to a group leader to work out why a failing group is failing.
Cool.
How do they do that without a combat tracker?
I mean, it's rare a group is failing because someone is standing there doing nothing, or not doing something that is easily spotted during combat. If a group leader is looking out for players not performing well, chances are the group failed because the group leader was too busy looking around to actually do what they need to do. The way a group leader finds what is going wrong is by looking at a combat tracker for the issue.
So, if we now assume that in Ashes, group leaders will not use combat trackers to boot players mid content because they no real way to replace them, and also that group leaders will use a combat tracker to find what is wrong with a group and attempt to fix it, what are the issues with combat trackers?
Well failures could be a number of things.
Tank didn't use the right mitigation skills, sucks at blocking, has bad positioning, steps into every AoE.
Healers don't use the right healing spell. Healers die because Tank pointed the boss the wrong way. Healer simply had bad positioning and couldn't hit his heal from too far away.
Now tell me how a DPS meter tells you about this?
Non min maxed damage is the least of the reasons why a raid fails, unless there is an absolutely draconian DPS check.
We currently have no way of determining whether no fast travel in shes is enough of a deterrent for replacing unwanted raid memembers who's performance seems sub-par to a Group Leader obsessed with pursuing the META.
But, yes... doesn't have to be about just one person being a failure at something, it can be about the group as whole adjust how they synergize their abilities and tactics.
Especially since the types of mobs in a raid are designed to change from session to session.
Look at the incoming damage the tank recieves, if every AoE is on there, you know he is being hit by them. If the tank is getting hit by larger amounts of physical mitigation than he should, or doesn't have periods where it is substantially lower comparatively, you know they are not using mitigation skills properly. If the tank has a low rate of successful blocks, you know they are not blocking properly.
If the healers are using the wrong healing spell, well, you can see the name of every healing spell in ACT, so that's a no-brainer. If the tank has the mob positioned incorrectly, you can see the people being hit by the attacks that positioning is intended to prevent. If only one non-tank group member is getting hit by those same attacks, you know it was that one group member, not the tanks positioning.
I mean, these are all basic combat tracker use cases. These are LITERALLY the things a combat tracker is created to communicate to players.
What we do know is that without a means of fast travel, a person in a group or raid can not be easily replaced. I mean, open dungeons have this habit of respawning mobs between where the entrance is and where the players are.
Thus, the leader has the decision to make, is the group or raid better off with an empty spot, or with this underperforming person?
If the person is so bad that the group is better off with an empty spot, I'd like to see any kind of defense of that person.
I disagree on the principle of what the Tracker does. The tracker automates these things, which you could --as a wise leader of the men in your raiding group -- observe with your own eyes.
You don't need the tracker to see if your tank keeps getting his health bar decimated, or that no one is filling it back up with healing spells.
Thus, what will ultimately remain of the combat tracker is the DPS meter, indicating to you which player to kick for sub-par damage (the standard of sub-par being here a subjective metric).
I agree that replacement of a player whilst in the raid is nearly impossible in Ashes, short of family summons. However raid groups can also call it quits, return to town, kick the players from their group and recruit new ones to try again.
And that is not enough info for your argument to be convincing.
The greater the barrier it is for a new player to be bought in to a group, the greater the incentive is to run with what you have.
While we do not have all the info on exactly how much harder it will be to bring in a new player, and thus how much more likely it is that a group will not boot players mid content, all that does is leave the discussion with being a case of how much less likely it is that players will indeed be booted from groups mid content.
The argument that WoW levels of this will happen in Ashes is a non-starter, we are simply left with that discussion as to how much less of it will happen.
So sure, the lack of fast travel is a massive influence here. That will see it happen much less. But then you can add to that the fact that dungeons in Ashes are open, and thus respawn. If you are going to bring in a new player mid content, you will NEED to meet them at the entrance to said dungeon - meaning the group or raid needs to start again from the beginning.
Then you have the PvP factor. A single player moving towards a group or raid area that is likely to be frequented by rivals is a fairly easy target for others to take out. This may mean that even if the group or raid is waiting for this new player at the start of the dungeon, the player may have issues even getting to that location. The group or raid may need to go out to meet them to even get them to that group or dungeon entrance.
If this is a raid, and the raid dungeon is within a group dungeon (as has been suggested as a possibility), then the raid will have to leave the raid dungeon, go to the start of the group dungeon and meet the player there. They may even have to leave that group dungeon to assist said player with other potential issues as above.
These are all things that are significantly more likely to be issues than not. If you are able to put some thought in to that and still come up with the idea that it will be common that people will be booted from groups mid content then I am unsure what to tell you.
You will be objectively wrong on that count, but you are welcome to be wrong. If you are looking at your tank closely enough to know if his health is going down due to the mobs AoE, melee attack, barrage, or a hidden player attacking him, then you are not focusing enough on your role within the group or raid.
If you are able to focus well enough on your role, and are still able to see all of what is happening to your tank, and to your healer, then you have content and combat that is so easy that a combat tracker isn't needed.
I personally hope for better than that from Ashes. If this has not happened to be in nearly 20 years, why would you think it would happen now.
In my time in gaming, I have literally kicked one player from a group or raid. That was because they were not curing ailments as per the instructions given to them, causing 20 consecutive wipes (player was booted, we world first killed the encounter on the next pull).
I have literally never kicked a player for low DPS. I have never even SEEN it happen. Not even one time. Not in pick up groups, not in pick up raids, and definitely not in any group setting. Think about this for a minute.
Imagine you are running that group or raid. You are not being all that successful, and you know it is because a portion of the group or raid are not up to par for the content you are on.
If you feel that the group or raid as a whole is still good enough to take on the content that you formed said group or raid to take on, why on earth would you go back to town - which involves travel time and potential PvP - reform the group or raid - which involves time - and then travel back to the place you just came from - which again involves travel time and potential PvP?
Literally the only reason you would do that is if the group or raid as you have it now is not good enough to take on the content you want to kill. If they are good enough as a whole, then you would push onward, because that is the most efficient thing to do.
You would only follow your suggestion above if there was no way the group or raid was able to take on the intended content. If this is the case, is it not in literally everyone's best interest that the group or raid be dissolved then and there? Even if a portion of that group or raid want to try again...
However, it is only true because in a game like WoW, the combat system is so damn simple that a four year old can master a class.
You can't create any challenge that is based purely on WoW's combat system, because there is no challenge in that combat system. This is why mechanics are what WoW raids lean on to add challenge. Other games lean more on the combat system for that challenge, often throwing in chaotic elements to encounters rather than requiring perfect execution of what basically amounts to a Dance Dance Revolution routine, as WoW requires.
While it is true that we do not know the metric that Ashes will use to determine how they will increase the difficulty of mobs, what we DO know is that what ever metric it is, a combat tracker will assist players with it. It could well be that they use how many wipes the raid had on the previous encounter, but it could also be that they only take the successful pull in to consideration.
In fact, a combat tracker may even be the only way of knowing objectively what metrics are being looked at. If the developers don't outright tell us, this is guaranteed to be the case.
I have fingers, fool!
WoW is probably my least played MMO. I played Never Winter Nights when it was 2D Top Down on America Online. I played the current NWN. I played Mortal, I've played Mortal II. I played Guild Wars. I played New World. Yes, I've played WoW. I play Entropia Universe.
You're confusing kicking people mid Raid with Gatekeeping. Raid is done, numbers are checked, names are marked off lists. You don't know the numbers fully until the Raid is done. What I said was, when it's done and numbers get looked at, those under a certain threshold get kicked. You don't kick people for lacking damage MID RAID, you kick people for pulling Mobs they aren't supposed to, or triggering Mechanics they aren't supposed to that lead to Wipes. Because just not doing a lot of damage, that's still more damage than an empty slot, so as long as they aren't actively wiping your group you wouldn't kick Mid Raid.
Tell me you make a lot of assumptions without telling me you make a lot of assumptions. You have no clue about my MMO experience, and you didn't ask. You could have asked, you should have asked.
What I'm talking about is DPS Meters setting a benchmark for Numbers that then lead to Gate Keeping Content which then becomes META.
And how can a Raid Leader do his job without Meters? Same way we did back in the 90's, before we had all those meters. Pay attention to what is going on. Have the knowledge of what the abilities are, what they look like, watch your Team to see what they are doing. Is Ranged DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that by watching them. Is Melee DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that, by watching them. Are Heals doing their job? You can see that... can you guess how you can see that? Guess.
It's a skill. Looking at the visuals, watching your group. It takes a LOT of knowledge, you have to know what these things look like. You have to understand why the rotations are what they are. And if something new is happening, you have to be looking at the reasoning for it and how that influences the action.
You do realize MMOs were a thing BEFORE Trackers were a thing, right? There was a time we did these things WITHOUT Trackers. And no, not every one has this kind of skill. Nor should everyone. If everyone can just be a Top Raid Leader, then no one is a Top Raid Leader.
Also, take this into consideration. I spec my Abilities to lower Defense. I'm casting the same Fire Ball you are. Mine does less damage than yours. But because of this EVERYONE in the Raid now does more damage... more than offsets my lack of damage. But some lazy Leader looks, sees you have more Damage than me, doesn't understand the Team is doing more Damage BECAUSE of me.
The idea is to get away from Lazy Meter Reading. The idea is to get back to UNDERSTANDING WHY a Player is going with a certain set up, and what that brings.
You don't need Meters to be a Good Raid Leader. In fact, some would argue if you need Meters you can't be a Good Raid Leader.