Really interesting topic. The number of benefits are equal to the number of drawbacks, in my mind.
On one hand, DPS meters breed a toxic sense of competition, where people are scolded for not having certain numbers.
On the other hand, as a raid leader, if we aren't killing a boss due to lack of damage, how do I know who to coach into being better, if there are no numbers to guide?
FF14 seems to do fine without them, so clearly it can be done. 17 years of WoW has me acculturated a different direction.
Really interesting topic. The number of benefits are equal to the number of drawbacks, in my mind.
On one hand, DPS meters breed a toxic sense of competition, where people are scolded for not having certain numbers.
On the other hand, as a raid leader, if we aren't killing a boss due to lack of damage, how do I know who to coach into being better, if there are no numbers to guide?
FF14 seems to do fine without them, so clearly it can be done. 17 years of WoW has me acculturated a different direction.
FFXIV has combat trackers - heaps of people use them.
People just aren't allowed to talk about it.
Also, in most games, people don't get scolded for not hitting certain numbers - not in my experience at least.
In a game like WoW, since it is so linear in terms of progression, you can basically look at a players gear and class, and know what their numbers should be. In almost all other games, this isn't possible, as there are too many other factors that can impact your output - including things like the performance of others in your group or raid.
When you have classes dedicated to support, if they don't do their job well, others aren't doing their job well. Sometimes this manifests as everyone in the raid not being where they should, but sometimes it may be more concentrated on one or two players (a build that relies heavily on that support, as an example).
In my experience, in most games, guilds go out of their way to make sure they recruit people that know what they are doing, and that actually want to be participating on that content (this last part is missing in WoW, many people in raid guilds simply want the gear, the content is simply a barrier to getting it). As such, if there is an issue with someone not hitting the numbers they should be hitting, and it is an ongoing thing, what tends to happen is that someone in the guild has a chat with them to see why they think that is the case, and if there is anything the guild can do.
I mean, we know the player is good, we know the player wants to be there. Based on that, if there is a problem, the best solution is to just fix the problem.
Again, this doesn't happen in WoW for a myriad of reasons that aren't worth getting in to here again.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think Noaani will say that DPS meters is really just a generic/colloquial term for combat trackers.
DPS meters do more than just track DPS.
I see quite alot of comments which claim that DPS meters bring toxicity and that people are getting kicked mid-content because a lack of numbers. This, in my experience (mainly WoW), almost never occurs. Mostly people get booted or flamed because they don't know the tactics of the bossfight, don't know the optimal route in the dungeon, are intentionally antagonizing the group or not putting any effort in at all. This kind of friction in group-content gets amplified if the group doesn't consist of like-minded gamers. A group consisting of a mix of meta-chasers and very casual players will create irritation. In my opinion the DPS-meter isnt the root-cause but could also further strengthen the friction between these different kind of players. To create a better experience for everyone its important to play with people of similar skill and ambition.
For me DPS-meter is a crucial part in playing any game. Without it I feel like I have no clue wether I did a good job, can improve things or simply compare skills, weapons and armor is something I use the tracker for. Reading other posts where people dont use DPS-meters or dislike it, I would say; make it optional (f.e. groupleader could disable for entire group).
If they want, they can make DPS Meters impossible.
All they have to do is to remove exact numbers completely out from the game and show the health bars only with segments: 10%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100%.
Then you will not know if you have 99% health or 76%, until it changes.
You will also not know how much damage you deal and you will have to figure that out playing the game.
If they don't remove the numbers from the game, then they are pro DPS Meters.
Instead of DPS you will have a X second per 25% and Y second per 100% and people will find out what is best this way...
Whereas without a DPS meter, it would be: "Well, I have no idea if your class is met or not, because I can't check your numbers, so you play whatever you want, so long as I don't see you slacking off."
More about : "your build is not the meta build, go find a guide on internet, read it, apply it or get kicked"
While with combat tracker : "ok you are not meta... but you do more than average damages of the raid, fine..."
Only for folk who highly value being as efficient as possible.
For those for whom group cohesion is more important than uber-efficiency, obsessing over efficiency actively hurts the entire group.
But... this is where you forget one thing : a group is a GROUP... not a leader and his minions.
If the GROUP want to be at the top , one of those able to kill the hardest boss that only a single digit % can kill, they have to be as efficient as possible... And so, for the group cohesion, the leader have to be sure that all 40 members are in the single digit % top players...
You want group cohesion ? some group cohesion is based on their capacity to get higher. And fight stronger boss always. If the group slow down, some of members leave to find group that want to progress higher...
You consider that the leader who wants efficiency is against group cohesion... but this way you consider the group doesnt want to be in top groups... but in such situation, the leader will leave, or be removed...
You just showed that the problem is not the quest for efficiency, neither tools used to get efficient but... that in a group, you have to gather people with close objectivs on the game, and a close mentality.
And because this, Combat tracker can be usefull...
There are lot of way to enjoy a same mmorpg. . . Just look at FFXIV... more than wow this is were there are huge gap between different kind of play. Some aiming for ultimate, while other just are doing quests for stories, and ask friend to be carry to get skin they want or wait one expansion delay to farm them easy way.
The problem is not the tools each are using, or how they see the game.
When a problem begins it is only at one time : when people with different mindset, and different target are grouping together...
Lets stay with FFXIV, and watch with "farm parties" those party will spam kill the current Xtrem primal for hours for people to get different weapons (mainly aesthetic) and some mounts.
If you have some people with low level, just enough to kill boss... maybe, and other people that are doing savage raid. it will end in a clash : the first one being bullied for being bad by second one. Because the second one know it would need 5 minutes per kill and not 6, 7 or more... small difference ? i said farm for hours... so this is a significant one.
Now with the same party, there will be various ending : in one case most people are here to do a chill farm, just "kill boss" and don't care more about it. The other 6 will just say to the "top guy" to shut up, that it is all fine, people are here to play chill. And the top will shut up, or leave to find a more efficient party. On the other side, we can have the 6 other who also considers that their time is precious and don't want to waste it due to under-efficient teammate, and the "bad one" will be pushed to play better, or get kicked.
Each of those 2 guys can be considered destroying the fun of the other. Neither of their way to have fun is better.
Xtrem primals are easy fight you don't need any tool to know who is a problem and who is carrying the team. It is always obvious after 2-3 kills.
The problem is not combat tracker saying "this one is a bad DPS" but simply that the group cohesion never existed beforehand. . . due to people with different way to have fun in the game.
And with or without combat tracker, people will have way to discriminate others...
Inspect the builds, see you don't have the meta build => kicked => solution would be not being able to inspect other builds ?
Inspect the stuff, see some bad choices => kicked => solution would be not being able to inspect stuff ?
This is how we did without combat tracker... Personally, i prefer being kicked because i am not efficient enough for the raid lead, than because i don't play what people want me to play... My fun is pushing as far as i can while playing what i want to play. . . Not following a meta
This MMO has a design philosophy in mind to be a social first MMO and a majority of social players derive no enjoyment out of having numbers shoved in their face to play a significant portion of the game. Yet, because you want to have numbers it's encroaching on your fun if it isn't there.
The first part of the above I almost fully agree with - but the second part simply does not follow on as you seem to think it does.
Yes, some players would like to put social aspects of the game first, and performance/efficiency second. However, as this thread will attest, many people use efficiency as a catalyst for social interaction - putting efficiency first and deriving positive interaction from that (a friendly competition with a guild mate is an obvious cliche example here).
So, we have two groups of players. One doesnt want combat trackers because they consider them an obstacle to social interaction, and the other group wants them because they see them as a catalyst to social interaction.
These two groups have other things I common. The first group, as you said, puts social interaction first. The second group puts efficiency first.
Based on this fact (not based on trackers) these groups of players will rarely ever have positive experiences if they try to group together, or try to coexist in the same guild.
They are just fundamentally different ways of playing an MMO, and as play styles go, they are not really compatible with each other.
So, you seem to think that I am arguing for a combat tracker so that the second group gets what they want, to the detriment of the first group.
This is incorrect, and I'll explain why two paragraphs down, carry on reading for now.
Since these two groups of players are simply not compatible with each other, they are not likely to be in the same guilds as each other. This is just a natural organization that players will fall in line with, without even thinking about it. People tend to join guilds of like minded players - or at the very least, players with like goals.
Thus, if we make it so that Ashes has a built in combat tracker, that is an optional guild perk and only works on members of your own guild, people that have fallen in to the above natural player organization where people are in guilds with like minded players, then those wanting combat trackers as a catalyst for social interaction will have access to them, and those that dont want them as they see them as a hindrance to social interaction cant have others use one on them.
This is the suggestion that predominates the first 90 or so pages of this thread.
It is to Intrwpids peril to not implement this. Not because people like me will be unhappy, but because people like you will - more about this two paragraphs down again.
Now, there are two other points to keep in mind here. The first is that if you go through this thread, there are more people posting that they want trackers than those saying they do not. Almost twice as many individual posters, actually.
Second, combat trackers simply will exist for Ashes, they already do. My argument is simply for Intrepid to take control of them.
So, the fact that more people want them than dont, the fact that they will exist regardless, and taken together with what my suggestion actually is - I found your post that I pulled the above quote from to be nothing less than well off the mark.
You seem to think I am trying to argue that I should have things all my way. In reality, I already have a combat tracker, and I will be able to use it to track your combat. I am asking Intrepid to incorporate a tracker in to the client for those that want it so that players like you dont have to get all upset that players like me can track your combat.
Basically, I am fighting the fight that you should be fighting - fighting for you, against you.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But... this is where you forget one thing : a group is a GROUP... not a leader and his minions.
If the GROUP want to be at the top , one of those able to kill the hardest boss that only a single digit % can kill, they have to be as efficient as possible...
Um. When I've seen people get kicked... whether the group wants to "be at the top" was never discussed.
Whether the group wants to be META was never discussed.
Whether the group wants the leader to look at the combat tracker to determine who "under-performed" was never discussed.
Whether the group wants someone to be kicked was never discussed. The group leader has the permissions to kick, so they kick who they wish to kick.
And so, for the group cohesion, the leader have to be sure that all 40 members are in the single digit % top players...
Um. No. The group leader - along with everyone else - should be assessing strategies that allow the group to succeed.
The group just needs to be able to find a strategy that defeats the encounter.
You want group cohesion ? some group cohesion is based on their capacity to get higher. And fight stronger boss always. If the group slow down, some of members leave to find group that want to progress higher...
I mean... individuals can choose to leave if they wish. That's called freedom.
Being kicked is not freedom.
People who don't wish to remain in the group should not be forced to remain. True.
You consider that the leader who wants efficiency is against group cohesion... but this way you consider the group doesnt want to be in top groups... but in such situation, the leader will leave, or be removed...
I consider the person who values efficiency more than group cohesion to value efficiency more than group cohesion.
I have never seen a group leader leave or be removed. I don't even know how the group leader could be removed and, since the group leader has the kick tools, seems exceedingly more likely the leader would kick, rather than leave.
You just showed that the problem is not the quest for efficiency, neither tools used to get efficient but... that in a group, you have to gather people with close objectivs on the game, and a close mentality.
Tools that help assess like-minded playstyles would be nice. Sure.
And should be implemented before DPS meters. Yes.
Once again:
fluctuations would need to either be minimal, or noticeable. There isn't really a third option.
and if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.
So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?
The third option is uncertainty.
You're taking two statements from different scenarios and combining them here.
In the scenario where Intrepid add daily variation to mobs, players do not have control over that. As such, unless that variation is large (which would be bad) it will be ignored.
Players do have control over what build they run, and (to the chagrin of many), what build others in their group or raid run.
As such, they will attempt to control this.
The more factors that are out of player control (such as daily variation in mobs), the more tightly they will control the aspects they are able to control.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.
So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?
I have not seen this to be the case.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.
Alright, I've just spent far too much time going through the first 100 pages of this thread to validate and put numbers to anything you've just claimed @Noaani and I've come to the conclusion that even after 3 years you're just a selfish serpent peddling lies in this thread and talking over anyone with long-winded, cyclical and bad-faith, arguments.
I went through the previous pages completely expecting to find your claim that the predominant opinion for a guild tracker and/or personal tracker was a completely valid one. Expecting the people on the forums to, at the very least, be mostly comprised of those that track the project most closely and were likely to take the game and performance in it very highly I at least expected a majority to be in favor of any trackers. Imagine my surprise when I went through and found an overwhelming number of people wanted no tracker to speak of. Not only do a whopping %50+ of people not want any trackers but half of the people that state they do want trackers stated they wanted them to be personal. For them to share at their discretion to guild members and raid leaders only.
People that did not post a definite one way or the other were present but even among them, the sentiments leaned toward not having a meter.
So even if it is the "predominant" opinion of discussion from before, which it isn't, the only reason it is brought up is a majority of the time as a concession of the vocal majority to an extremely vocal minority mainly consisting of you and like 7 other people. So go ahead and throw that a majority of people want trackers' stuff out the window. They don't even want them here and this is where the highest concentration of people would voice that opinion.
Noaani, I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because you've been doing this for 3+ years at this point and I can only assume it's because you have a vested interest in making these meters successful for one reason or another. I was done with you when I saw you say that Steven, who this game wouldn't exist without, should have reconsidered his hiring practices if he was hiring people that agreed with him on this topic as if that has the slightest impact on how good they are as a developer and if they were right for the team.
This next bit is my address to the other prevalent arguments for the use of meters
The Metagame
There will always be a metagame. There's no reason to create the game around the metagame because it will exist with or without these tools. It will exist with or without the input of Intrepid. There will always be people out there striving to be the best of the best. But for the everyman, the majority of the player base for this game, it will be objectively less stressful and easier to be social without systems like a meter.
And also, the social element of players figuring out the best build and the top DPS and everything that happens in those best of the best groups...it happened before meters existed and those groups will be just as social without those meters. It's part of the reasons MMOs took off in the first place.
It will make the jobs of raid leaders and guild leaders harder.
Raid and Guild Leaders will always have a hard job. It isn't easy organizing so many people and it never has been. However the right people when put into these positions will be insanely creative and come up with other, typically more social, means of tackling an issue. And in my experience, the best leaders know when their group can push through and get something done and when they need to maybe pull back and restrategize. They don't need tools to micro-manage every aspect of their raid team. They need communication skills. If your raid lead knows that last pull was as good as it's going to get and you're still %10 off on the boss, they will call it and get people geared for the next try, and that's okay. That's progression.
Also, when your members don't feel like they're doing up to snuff they will come to you and ask for help if you're a good leader. If people aren't coming to you for help in the first place and you still aren't where you want to be then maybe you should be raid lead.
Games were simple "back in the day" we need more information now.
Sure game mechanics might have extended to "Don't stand in the fire" back in the day, but that doesn't mean that there have been plenty of cases of very complicated and rewarding encounters across the genre that haven't needed meters either. "How will I know what mechanics my group is wiping to?" You pay attention. You know the fights. It's part of the job of leaders for years and will continue into the future. It doesn't matter if you have all the tools in the world, if you can't teach the fight DPS will never matter. Know what the tank, healers, DPS, and fight needs.
People will make and use trackers anyways.
I am not going to even argue this point because that has been stated to be straight up against the ToS and should be a bannable offence. And quite frankly the number of people in this thread alone that have mentioned that they will be using them regardless disgusts me. But yeah, people will use them. Don't group with them.
I'm sure there's more but this is long enough. I'll probably edit more later to just make this a comprehensive quote of 'my opinion'.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
Alright, I've just spent far too much time going through the first 100 pages of this thread to validate and put numbers to anything you've just claimed @Noaani and I've come to the conclusion that even after 3 years you're just a selfish serpent peddling lies in this thread and talking over anyone with long-winded, cyclical and bad-faith, arguments.
I went through the previous pages completely expecting to find your claim that the predominant opinion for a guild tracker and/or personal tracker was a completely valid one. Expecting the people on the forums to, at the very least, be mostly comprised of those that track the project most closely and were likely to take the game and performance in it very highly I at least expected a majority to be in favor of any trackers. Imagine my surprise when I went through and found an overwhelming number of people wanted no tracker to speak of. Not only do a whopping %50+ of people not want any trackers but half of the people that state they do want trackers stated they wanted them to be personal. For them to share at their discretion to guild members and raid leaders only.
People that did not post a definite one way or the other were present but even among them, the sentiments leaned toward not having a meter.
So even if it is the "predominant" opinion of discussion from before, which it isn't, the only reason it is brought up is a majority of the time as a concession of the vocal majority to an extremely vocal minority mainly consisting of you and like 7 other people. So go ahead and throw that a majority of people want trackers' stuff out the window. They don't even want them here and this is where the highest concentration of people would voice that opinion.
Noaani, I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because you've been doing this for 3+ years at this point and I can only assume it's because you have a vested interest in making these meters successful for one reason or another. I was done with you when I saw you say that Steven, who this game wouldn't exist without, should have reconsidered his hiring practices if he was hiring people that agreed with him on this topic as if that has the slightest impact on how good they are as a developer and if they were right for the team.
This next bit is my address to the other prevalent arguments for the use of meters
The Metagame
There will always be a metagame. There's no reason to create the game around the metagame because it will exist with or without these tools. It will exist with or without the input of Intrepid. There will always be people out there striving to be the best of the best. But for the everyman, the majority of the player base for this game, it will be objectively less stressful and easier to be social without systems like a meter.
And also, the social element of players figuring out the best build and the top DPS and everything that happens in those best of the best groups...it happened before meters existed and those groups will be just as social without those meters. It's part of the reasons MMOs took off in the first place.
It will make the jobs of raid leaders and guild leaders harder.
Raid and Guild Leaders will always have a hard job. It isn't easy organizing so many people and it never has been. However the right people when put into these positions will be insanely creative and come up with other, typically more social, means of tackling an issue. And in my experience, the best leaders know when their group can push through and get something done and when they need to maybe pull back and restrategize. They don't need tools to micro-manage every aspect of their raid team. They need communication skills. If your raid lead knows that last pull was as good as it's going to get and you're still %10 off on the boss, they will call it and get people geared for the next try, and that's okay. That's progression.
Also, when your members don't feel like they're doing up to snuff they will come to you and ask for help if you're a good leader. If people aren't coming to you for help in the first place and you still aren't where you want to be then maybe you should be raid lead.
Games were simple "back in the day" we need more information now.
Sure game mechanics might have extended to "Don't stand in the fire" back in the day, but that doesn't mean that there have been plenty of cases of very complicated and rewarding encounters across the genre that haven't needed meters either. "How will I know what mechanics my group is wiping to?" You pay attention. You know the fights. It's part of the job of leaders for years and will continue into the future. It doesn't matter if you have all the tools in the world, if you can't teach the fight DPS will never matter. Know what the tank, healers, DPS, and fight needs.
People will make and use trackers anyways.
I am not going to even argue this point because that has been stated to be straight up against the ToS and should be a bannable offence. And quite frankly the number of people in this thread alone that have mentioned that they will be using them regardless disgusts me. But yeah, people will use them. Don't group with them.
I'm sure there's more but this is long enough. I'll probably edit more later to just make this a comprehensive quote of 'my opinion'.
TLDR: meters are for nerds. A real gammer just plays by feel.
Noaani, I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because you've been doing this for 3+ years at this point and I can only assume it's because you have a vested interest in making these meters successful for one reason or another.
I have no vested interest past wanting this game to be as good as it can be, to as wide an audience as it can.
I'm actually not st all sure what kind of vested interest I could have where suggesting Intrepis incorporate a tracker in to the game would forward said vested interest. It has been suggested that I somehow make money from ACT (tou may have seen that in this thread), but since ACT so free, has no adds and no actual revenue stream other than purely optional donation,even if I did have an interest in it (I dont), and even if I weren't forwarding a suggestion that would render ACT useless (I am), there is no money to be made there anyway.
If you have any thoughts about what you think a vested interest that I may have could look like (other than the aforementioned wanting the game to be as good as it can for as many people as possible), let me know - because this does puzzle me somewhat.
I was done with you when I saw you say that Steven, who this game wouldn't exist without, should have reconsidered his hiring practices if he was hiring people that agreed with him on this topic as if that has the slightest impact on how good they are as a developer and if they were right for the team.
So, fun backstory here.
One of the meters I know of for this game has been developed by someone/some people that work/works/worked at Intrepid (unwilling to give any specifics, for obvious reasons).
They made the tracker because literally everyone they talked about at Intrepid said the game should obviously have one. It's a no-brainer.
Margaret is on record (unwittingly, perhaps, but on record regardless) as saying it makes CS much easier when players have access to more data.
Based on this, if Steven thinks the bulk of staff at Intrepid support his idea of not having a combat tracker, he has hired people that will just agree with him to his face, regardless of their opinion.
Since he has no actual development experience, and is reliant on his staff educating and informing him, if he has nothing but "yes men" on staff (which if he believes they all agree with him on this, he does), then who is going to inform him when he is making bad decisions?
This is an HR problem that started at the hiring process - if staff dont believe they can disagree with their boss, they will just agree with them to their face, and then do what they think needs to be done when the boss isnt looking.
This is exactly what has happened. A tracker was created at for Ashes, at Intrepid Studios, by Intrepid staff - because they know it is the best thing for the game.
This is why I know we will have a combat tracker in Ashes - it will run on the damn server if it has to.
It is also worth noting that the current design of the tracker (running client side, not server side) can not be against any ToS. It doesnt interact with the game client or server in any capacity (again, current design), and so Intrepid do not have the legal preview to prevent its use. Literally all they are able to do is state that you can not talk about it in game - which I hope we can agree is fairly lame.
Ad a side note, this is why all FFXIV was able to do about trackers was prevent people from talking about them. If it doesnt interact directly with your software, you cant prevent its use.
This is also why my suggestion is still for Steven to take control. If Intrepid incorporate it in to the game client, they can place limits on it. They can make it so guilds can run a tracker that only works on members of their guild. They can make it so families can opt to pick a personal tracker if they wish. They can also then make it so that people that simply do not want them are able to keep away from them - but this can only ever happen if Intrepid reach out and take control of the situation.
As an aside, when counting opinions on this thread, those that had no real opinion and those that wanted a personal only tracker I counted as being for, rather than against or abstained.
This is because the above suggestion literally caters to them - and that is the suggestion I have been pushing on and off for several years.
In my personal opinion, a DPS meter is a must. Even if no DPS meter were allowed, raid groups would find other solutions to set a DPS requirement, such as soloing a low-level boss and time it.
It would only lead to more unnecessary work.
Let's say you have ten mages with the same gear, two people do good damage, five do average damage and three do less damage. Tell me who did what damage.
It's also a lot harder to figure out what's missing. Heal, damage, boons, strips, cc, etc?
For established tryhard guilds, where everyone has been playing together for a long time, it is much easier than for new guilds to figure out why it doesn't work like it should. lMO that is a big disadvantage.
This applies to both pvp and pve.
Another point is to show each other how far apart they are. When someone consistently does more damage than another person with the same gear and skill tree, the other person/group knows they're doing something wrong.
It's also a lot easier with a dps tool to improve the output/input for damage, healing, etc.
And for beginners, there are beginner raids anyway. Implementing a DPS tool, or at least allowing third-party DPS tools, is a no-brainer imo.
if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.
So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?
I have not seen this to be the case.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.
So, I've been thinking about this for the last few hours, and it doesnt make any real sense.
I can see four possible scenarios here.
1, you are not telling the truth. Not saying this is the one I think most likely, but it is a possibility.
2, the player running the group had a friend they wanted to get in to the group, and so booted the player in the role their friend wants to fill.
It is often easier in a group to remove someone by saying they are underperforming than any other method.
3, the person booted from the group was not enjoyable to group with. Whether it is them constantly talking shit, being a general annoyance, wanting their group to do things a different way, moving too slowly, what ever. This is another of those scenarios where it may just be better to say the person is underperforming than anything else.
4, the person was underperforming so much, that the group leader thought it better to literally roll the dice and hope to get someone better from the general pool of players of the game in question.
I dont consider the combat tracker to be at fault in any of these - and indeed would expect the same result if the combat tracker didnt exist at all. In fact, the only time the persons performance is even at question is the last scenario, and I would say that anyone performing so badly that the group would rather leave things up to the RNG gods is in fact so bad that a combat tracker isnt needed to see it.
If I am wrong, and what you have seen falls in to something else, by all means let me know.
Alright, I've just spent far too much time going through the first 100 pages of this thread to validate and put numbers to anything you've just claimed @Noaani and I've come to the conclusion that even after 3 years you're just a selfish serpent peddling lies in this thread and talking over anyone with long-winded, cyclical and bad-faith, arguments.
I went through the previous pages completely expecting to find your claim that the predominant opinion for a guild tracker and/or personal tracker was a completely valid one. Expecting the people on the forums to, at the very least, be mostly comprised of those that track the project most closely and were likely to take the game and performance in it very highly I at least expected a majority to be in favor of any trackers. Imagine my surprise when I went through and found an overwhelming number of people wanted no tracker to speak of. Not only do a whopping %50+ of people not want any trackers but half of the people that state they do want trackers stated they wanted them to be personal. For them to share at their discretion to guild members and raid leaders only.
People that did not post a definite one way or the other were present but even among them, the sentiments leaned toward not having a meter.
So even if it is the "predominant" opinion of discussion from before, which it isn't, the only reason it is brought up is a majority of the time as a concession of the vocal majority to an extremely vocal minority mainly consisting of you and like 7 other people. So go ahead and throw that a majority of people want trackers' stuff out the window. They don't even want them here and this is where the highest concentration of people would voice that opinion.
Noaani, I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because you've been doing this for 3+ years at this point and I can only assume it's because you have a vested interest in making these meters successful for one reason or another. I was done with you when I saw you say that Steven, who this game wouldn't exist without, should have reconsidered his hiring practices if he was hiring people that agreed with him on this topic as if that has the slightest impact on how good they are as a developer and if they were right for the team.
This next bit is my address to the other prevalent arguments for the use of meters
The Metagame
There will always be a metagame. There's no reason to create the game around the metagame because it will exist with or without these tools. It will exist with or without the input of Intrepid. There will always be people out there striving to be the best of the best. But for the everyman, the majority of the player base for this game, it will be objectively less stressful and easier to be social without systems like a meter.
And also, the social element of players figuring out the best build and the top DPS and everything that happens in those best of the best groups...it happened before meters existed and those groups will be just as social without those meters. It's part of the reasons MMOs took off in the first place.
It will make the jobs of raid leaders and guild leaders harder.
Raid and Guild Leaders will always have a hard job. It isn't easy organizing so many people and it never has been. However the right people when put into these positions will be insanely creative and come up with other, typically more social, means of tackling an issue. And in my experience, the best leaders know when their group can push through and get something done and when they need to maybe pull back and restrategize. They don't need tools to micro-manage every aspect of their raid team. They need communication skills. If your raid lead knows that last pull was as good as it's going to get and you're still %10 off on the boss, they will call it and get people geared for the next try, and that's okay. That's progression.
Also, when your members don't feel like they're doing up to snuff they will come to you and ask for help if you're a good leader. If people aren't coming to you for help in the first place and you still aren't where you want to be then maybe you should be raid lead.
Games were simple "back in the day" we need more information now.
Sure game mechanics might have extended to "Don't stand in the fire" back in the day, but that doesn't mean that there have been plenty of cases of very complicated and rewarding encounters across the genre that haven't needed meters either. "How will I know what mechanics my group is wiping to?" You pay attention. You know the fights. It's part of the job of leaders for years and will continue into the future. It doesn't matter if you have all the tools in the world, if you can't teach the fight DPS will never matter. Know what the tank, healers, DPS, and fight needs.
People will make and use trackers anyways.
I am not going to even argue this point because that has been stated to be straight up against the ToS and should be a bannable offence. And quite frankly the number of people in this thread alone that have mentioned that they will be using them regardless disgusts me. But yeah, people will use them. Don't group with them.
I'm sure there's more but this is long enough. I'll probably edit more later to just make this a comprehensive quote of 'my opinion'.
Amend trackers can gtfo, same with add ons that crap is stupid. And we can throw in the like 90% of people that dont use forums not caring about ad ons or dps meters either lmao. People that use the forums is only a tiny fraction of the population of a game, then you have micro fractions in a forum that are loud.
Another point is to show each other how far apart they are. When someone consistently does more damage than another person with the same gear and skill tree, the other person/group knows they're doing something wrong.
Especially in Ashes, why would someone be using another person's same gear and skill tree??
Also devs should have a DPs meter for obvious reasons on testing, not players. Also hope there are plenty of action elements as well that require movement and actually landing your skills
Also devs should have a DPs meter for obvious reasons on testing, not players. Also hope there are plenty of action elements as well that require movement and actually landing your skills
Yes. Years ago, developers built testing features into the game, hidden by simple pass keywords. Players call the cheat codes. Now cheaters demand them as features.
I seriously hope this is not what was referenced as they had it so its in the game like the even planned to give it to players lol. This is alpha of course they need everything to test and try to balance in the most easy and effective way possible.
Once again:
fluctuations would need to either be minimal, or noticeable. There isn't really a third option.
and if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.
So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?
The third option is uncertainty.
You're taking two statements from different scenarios and combining them here.
In the scenario where Intrepid add daily variation to mobs, players do not have control over that. As such, unless that variation is large (which would be bad) it will be ignored.
Players do have control over what build they run, and (to the chagrin of many), what build others in their group or raid run.
As such, they will attempt to control this.
The more factors that are out of player control (such as daily variation in mobs), the more tightly they will control the aspects they are able to control.
Lets say we have two cases: Meta A and Meta B (or more)
You say that only with a DPS meter I can prove that Meta A is better than Meta B.
I came with the idea to have a variation (daily, regional, server based) where the two cases are swapped
1) So without DPS meters, we would not notice the change.
2) With DPS meters we would notice it.
You said, If the effect is minimal, then people would just ignore it.
So it is better to not have DPS meters because that will bring variation to the game. Right?
See, no. You are taking statements from different scenarios and joining them together again.
If the effect of a developer forced variation is minimal (as per your suggestion about variations), players will just ignore that. Players are not going to come up with a new spec every day to maximize efficiency for one day (using the daily example from your suggestion). Rather, they will run a build that is as maximized across all possible variations as they can find.
Even from an absolute min-maxer perspective, this is how it will go. If you attempted to maximize your build each day for subtle variations, you would spend more time on it than you would save.
If you are talking about wanting players to have variation in what builds they can have, and what builds others will accept, the key is in people knowing those builds. The easiest way people can get to know a build is to show them what it can do. The easiest way to show someone what a build can do is to take it out on content and use a combat tracker.
Note that this doesn't mean you can just take any build along - your build does indeed need to perform.
Without a combat tracker, people have no way of knowing what your build is or is not capable of. As such, unless they know you well, you will only be invited to join in on content if you are running a build that is known.
So, if the variation you are after is variation in terms of the builds you are able to run on content with other people, a combat tracker is literally your greatest asset - whether you like combat trackers or not.
Also devs should have a DPs meter for obvious reasons on testing, not players. Also hope there are plenty of action elements as well that require movement and actually landing your skills
Developers having a combat tracker is significantly less useful than players having a combat tracker in a game like Ashes.
In a game like WoW, the developers essentially start a class with the button sequence players will use in combat. Then they develop abilities to arrive at that goal. There is, generally speaking, only one viable way to play each class. This usually ends up with combat systems where classes have combos, or various combat resources to manage - these are the tools developers use to force you to play a class a specific way.
In games like this, developers having access to combat trackers is great.
In a game with complex character builds, where the idea is that players can select what ever abilities they want and eventually create a viable build, developers having combat trackers is basically useless. In such a game, players will understand each class far better than developers - even the developers that made the class in question.
It is not a bad thing to strive to improve the status.
Bad is using tools where they should not be used.
It is like playing chess against your opponent, using a specialized chess engine.
Or playing a shooter using an aim assist software.
Using a DPS Meter is like being a cheater.
None of these are accurate.
Using your chess example, using a combat tracker would be more akin to analyzing your opponents strategies, favorite moves, risk tolerance etc. Like a combat tracker, these things are all basic data gathering and analysis.
All top end (and wannabe top end) chess players do the above - yet I see nothing at all about it in the rules of the game.
There are other things that would be more akin to using a specialized chess engine, macros being the starting point of that.
I have been playing with people who press their abilities in a completely wrong order or even press the same combo starter multiple times, being completely oblivious to the fact that they are doing 20% damage of what an average player with their class would do.
I have a friend that did not know that they are doing a sub par dps and it was pointed out by a random person in our group at the time because they had access to a dps meter. As of right now this friend is now capable of surpassing me in damage because they were made aware of their shortcomings and had enough of determination to practice and improve.
I would like for the game to have a way of telling a player that they are not pulling their weight without being scrutinized and shamed.
What I would not like to have is a system that takes damage numbers and creates an internet pp measuring contest that enables only a top 10% of players (even though the difference between like 20 and 80 percentile is negligible) to be able to join raids/dungeons and creates an environment that says "DPS is all that matters".
Problem is that if we get to a point where game tracks your numbers and makes them available for viewing it wont take long for players to make a 3rd party site that compares all those numbers, given a proper addon or log uploads.
This is a tall order but hey, nobody said this would be easy. Self improvement is something I value in games but at this point I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to not have a meter and people would have to figure out for themselves if they do "good" damage on their own by comparing their numbers/damage dealt to a boss/mob and their teammates.
Lets say we have two cases: Meta A and Meta B (or more)
You say that only with a DPS meter I can prove that Meta A is better than Meta B.
I came with the idea to have a variation (daily, regional, server based) where the two cases are swapped
1) So without DPS meters, we would not notice the change.
2) With DPS meters we would notice it.
You said, If the effect is minimal, then people would just ignore it.
So it is better to not have DPS meters because that will bring variation to the game. Right?
Dude, we've been over this.
We're going to go line by line here.
Lets say we have two cases: Meta A and Meta B (or more)
Ok, sure...
You say that only with a DPS meter I can prove that Meta A is better than Meta B.
Correct.
I came with the idea to have a variation (daily, regional, server based) where the two cases are swapped
Now we have a problem. I haven't bothered mentioning this as yet, because I thought it honestly went without saying. However, since I am now explaining this for the THIRD TIME, going over these things that should be obvious is apparently what I now need to do.
Variation isn't going to just swap things around between multiple metas. The only way this could happen is if the game is specifically designed to only allow for those builds (ie, current WoW class design). This literally goes against what Ashes is, and so is simply not going to happen.
As such, this variation HAS TO BE some form of random variation to encounters. Literally nothing else is viable - and this specific variation is already something Intrepid has planned for at least some content in the game.
1) So without DPS meters, we would not notice the change.
Indeed, because the change would have to be very small, otherwise you wouldn't know what classes you need to bring along on group content. This is something Intrepid have said you will be able to do - while talking about the content variation system they have planned for the game.
So, these variations would need to be small.
2) With DPS meters we would notice it.
Indeed. I'll notice a 2% increase in HP to a raid boss.
You said, If the effect is minimal, then people would just ignore it.
Indeed. Players have no control over it, attempting to assert control over it would take more time than you would gain back since it will change again tomorrow, and the effects are minimal enough that you can just play through it.
Ignoring it is literally the only viable path for players to take with your developer forced variation to content suggestion (and with the system as planned by Intrepid).
So it is better to not have DPS meters because that will bring variation to the game. Right?
This line simply does not follow from the above.
You may as well have said "I want some cake, you have some cake, therefore, Teletubbies are scary".
That is the level of disconnect between the first six lines above and the last line. It simply does not follow.
Now, before we carry on dissecting this last line - which I will do in a follow up post if you answer this question - we need an answer to exactly what the variation is you are talking about in this last line.
It is not a bad thing to strive to improve the status.
Bad is using tools where they should not be used.
It is like playing chess against your opponent, using a specialized chess engine.
Or playing a shooter using an aim assist software.
Using a DPS Meter is like being a cheater.
None of these are accurate.
Using your chess example, using a combat tracker would be more akin to analyzing your opponents strategies, favorite moves, risk tolerance etc. Like a combat tracker, these things are all basic data gathering and analysis.
All top end (and wannabe top end) chess players do the above - yet I see nothing at all about it in the rules of the game.
There are other things that would be more akin to using a specialized chess engine, macros being the starting point of that.
They are called cheaters if they use them during the competition.
Memorizing strategies before cannot be practically prevented. But would benefit to find out who is better at the game, through competion.
Using a DPS meter to analize recorded videos is possible. But can be prevented by not showing any kind of numbers on client side. Only the server would have them.
So the game would be played as intended, if is made so.
And would be better, based on this reasoning below:
Addressing this part of your post separately.
In chess competitions, players will often watch matches of potential opponents to gather the data I specifically talked about above. Most chess competitions have a move by move of every game they host, so that players can study their opponents.
While it isn't in the games rules, it absolutely is a part of chess - a part that you simply can not rise to any form of success without participating in. It is not cheating in any way, it is not considered cheating by any one - and you are probably the only person in history that has ever suggested that watching two other people playing a game of chess amounts to cheating at chess (which is literally what you said above).
I am sorry, but Ashes nor Chess are quantum based games - there doesn't exist any influence of observing gameplay to directly changing it
doing research, learning from others, dissecting gameplay step by step are not cheats
it honestly baffles me that mmo forum posters are the only players in existence that derive their enjoyment of their game of choice from boasting on forums that everything they do is self taught and guides are for scrubs
i cant wait for the reply from someone that doesnt know the difference between direct influence and indirect xD
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
if combat trackers exist, you can prove to those people that they are wrong.
So, without combat trackers will not be possible to notice differences between various choices?
I have not seen this to be the case.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.
Obviously, you've ever only played WoW then. Just give it a moment, Nooani will explain this to you.
Comments
On one hand, DPS meters breed a toxic sense of competition, where people are scolded for not having certain numbers.
On the other hand, as a raid leader, if we aren't killing a boss due to lack of damage, how do I know who to coach into being better, if there are no numbers to guide?
FF14 seems to do fine without them, so clearly it can be done. 17 years of WoW has me acculturated a different direction.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
We need to be able to either track all of the classes' contributions to a team's success, or none of them.
FFXIV has combat trackers - heaps of people use them.
People just aren't allowed to talk about it.
Also, in most games, people don't get scolded for not hitting certain numbers - not in my experience at least.
In a game like WoW, since it is so linear in terms of progression, you can basically look at a players gear and class, and know what their numbers should be. In almost all other games, this isn't possible, as there are too many other factors that can impact your output - including things like the performance of others in your group or raid.
When you have classes dedicated to support, if they don't do their job well, others aren't doing their job well. Sometimes this manifests as everyone in the raid not being where they should, but sometimes it may be more concentrated on one or two players (a build that relies heavily on that support, as an example).
In my experience, in most games, guilds go out of their way to make sure they recruit people that know what they are doing, and that actually want to be participating on that content (this last part is missing in WoW, many people in raid guilds simply want the gear, the content is simply a barrier to getting it). As such, if there is an issue with someone not hitting the numbers they should be hitting, and it is an ongoing thing, what tends to happen is that someone in the guild has a chat with them to see why they think that is the case, and if there is anything the guild can do.
I mean, we know the player is good, we know the player wants to be there. Based on that, if there is a problem, the best solution is to just fix the problem.
Again, this doesn't happen in WoW for a myriad of reasons that aren't worth getting in to here again.
DPS meters do more than just track DPS.
For me DPS-meter is a crucial part in playing any game. Without it I feel like I have no clue wether I did a good job, can improve things or simply compare skills, weapons and armor is something I use the tracker for. Reading other posts where people dont use DPS-meters or dislike it, I would say; make it optional (f.e. groupleader could disable for entire group).
― Plato
Instead of DPS you will have a X second per 25% and Y second per 100% and people will find out what is best this way...
More about : "your build is not the meta build, go find a guide on internet, read it, apply it or get kicked"
While with combat tracker : "ok you are not meta... but you do more than average damages of the raid, fine..."
But... this is where you forget one thing : a group is a GROUP... not a leader and his minions.
If the GROUP want to be at the top , one of those able to kill the hardest boss that only a single digit % can kill, they have to be as efficient as possible... And so, for the group cohesion, the leader have to be sure that all 40 members are in the single digit % top players...
You want group cohesion ? some group cohesion is based on their capacity to get higher. And fight stronger boss always. If the group slow down, some of members leave to find group that want to progress higher...
You consider that the leader who wants efficiency is against group cohesion... but this way you consider the group doesnt want to be in top groups... but in such situation, the leader will leave, or be removed...
You just showed that the problem is not the quest for efficiency, neither tools used to get efficient but... that in a group, you have to gather people with close objectivs on the game, and a close mentality.
And because this, Combat tracker can be usefull...
There are lot of way to enjoy a same mmorpg. . . Just look at FFXIV... more than wow this is were there are huge gap between different kind of play. Some aiming for ultimate, while other just are doing quests for stories, and ask friend to be carry to get skin they want or wait one expansion delay to farm them easy way.
The problem is not the tools each are using, or how they see the game.
When a problem begins it is only at one time : when people with different mindset, and different target are grouping together...
Lets stay with FFXIV, and watch with "farm parties" those party will spam kill the current Xtrem primal for hours for people to get different weapons (mainly aesthetic) and some mounts.
If you have some people with low level, just enough to kill boss... maybe, and other people that are doing savage raid. it will end in a clash : the first one being bullied for being bad by second one. Because the second one know it would need 5 minutes per kill and not 6, 7 or more... small difference ? i said farm for hours... so this is a significant one.
Now with the same party, there will be various ending : in one case most people are here to do a chill farm, just "kill boss" and don't care more about it. The other 6 will just say to the "top guy" to shut up, that it is all fine, people are here to play chill. And the top will shut up, or leave to find a more efficient party. On the other side, we can have the 6 other who also considers that their time is precious and don't want to waste it due to under-efficient teammate, and the "bad one" will be pushed to play better, or get kicked.
Each of those 2 guys can be considered destroying the fun of the other. Neither of their way to have fun is better.
Xtrem primals are easy fight you don't need any tool to know who is a problem and who is carrying the team. It is always obvious after 2-3 kills.
The problem is not combat tracker saying "this one is a bad DPS" but simply that the group cohesion never existed beforehand. . . due to people with different way to have fun in the game.
And with or without combat tracker, people will have way to discriminate others...
Inspect the builds, see you don't have the meta build => kicked => solution would be not being able to inspect other builds ?
Inspect the stuff, see some bad choices => kicked => solution would be not being able to inspect stuff ?
This is how we did without combat tracker... Personally, i prefer being kicked because i am not efficient enough for the raid lead, than because i don't play what people want me to play... My fun is pushing as far as i can while playing what i want to play. . . Not following a meta
The first part of the above I almost fully agree with - but the second part simply does not follow on as you seem to think it does.
Yes, some players would like to put social aspects of the game first, and performance/efficiency second. However, as this thread will attest, many people use efficiency as a catalyst for social interaction - putting efficiency first and deriving positive interaction from that (a friendly competition with a guild mate is an obvious cliche example here).
So, we have two groups of players. One doesnt want combat trackers because they consider them an obstacle to social interaction, and the other group wants them because they see them as a catalyst to social interaction.
These two groups have other things I common. The first group, as you said, puts social interaction first. The second group puts efficiency first.
Based on this fact (not based on trackers) these groups of players will rarely ever have positive experiences if they try to group together, or try to coexist in the same guild.
They are just fundamentally different ways of playing an MMO, and as play styles go, they are not really compatible with each other.
So, you seem to think that I am arguing for a combat tracker so that the second group gets what they want, to the detriment of the first group.
This is incorrect, and I'll explain why two paragraphs down, carry on reading for now.
Since these two groups of players are simply not compatible with each other, they are not likely to be in the same guilds as each other. This is just a natural organization that players will fall in line with, without even thinking about it. People tend to join guilds of like minded players - or at the very least, players with like goals.
Thus, if we make it so that Ashes has a built in combat tracker, that is an optional guild perk and only works on members of your own guild, people that have fallen in to the above natural player organization where people are in guilds with like minded players, then those wanting combat trackers as a catalyst for social interaction will have access to them, and those that dont want them as they see them as a hindrance to social interaction cant have others use one on them.
This is the suggestion that predominates the first 90 or so pages of this thread.
It is to Intrwpids peril to not implement this. Not because people like me will be unhappy, but because people like you will - more about this two paragraphs down again.
Now, there are two other points to keep in mind here. The first is that if you go through this thread, there are more people posting that they want trackers than those saying they do not. Almost twice as many individual posters, actually.
Second, combat trackers simply will exist for Ashes, they already do. My argument is simply for Intrepid to take control of them.
So, the fact that more people want them than dont, the fact that they will exist regardless, and taken together with what my suggestion actually is - I found your post that I pulled the above quote from to be nothing less than well off the mark.
You seem to think I am trying to argue that I should have things all my way. In reality, I already have a combat tracker, and I will be able to use it to track your combat. I am asking Intrepid to incorporate a tracker in to the client for those that want it so that players like you dont have to get all upset that players like me can track your combat.
Basically, I am fighting the fight that you should be fighting - fighting for you, against you.
Whether the group wants to be META was never discussed.
Whether the group wants the leader to look at the combat tracker to determine who "under-performed" was never discussed.
Whether the group wants someone to be kicked was never discussed. The group leader has the permissions to kick, so they kick who they wish to kick.
Um. No. The group leader - along with everyone else - should be assessing strategies that allow the group to succeed.
The group just needs to be able to find a strategy that defeats the encounter.
I mean... individuals can choose to leave if they wish. That's called freedom.
Being kicked is not freedom.
People who don't wish to remain in the group should not be forced to remain. True.
I consider the person who values efficiency more than group cohesion to value efficiency more than group cohesion.
I have never seen a group leader leave or be removed. I don't even know how the group leader could be removed and, since the group leader has the kick tools, seems exceedingly more likely the leader would kick, rather than leave.
Tools that help assess like-minded playstyles would be nice. Sure.
And should be implemented before DPS meters. Yes.
You're taking two statements from different scenarios and combining them here.
In the scenario where Intrepid add daily variation to mobs, players do not have control over that. As such, unless that variation is large (which would be bad) it will be ignored.
Players do have control over what build they run, and (to the chagrin of many), what build others in their group or raid run.
As such, they will attempt to control this.
The more factors that are out of player control (such as daily variation in mobs), the more tightly they will control the aspects they are able to control.
What I've seen is the leader looks at their combat tracker, basically says, "WTF? You suck because xxx..."
And then kicks the person. There is no opportunity to rebutt the leader's assessment.
I went through the previous pages completely expecting to find your claim that the predominant opinion for a guild tracker and/or personal tracker was a completely valid one. Expecting the people on the forums to, at the very least, be mostly comprised of those that track the project most closely and were likely to take the game and performance in it very highly I at least expected a majority to be in favor of any trackers.
Imagine my surprise when I went through and found an overwhelming number of people wanted no tracker to speak of. Not only do a whopping %50+ of people not want any trackers but half of the people that state they do want trackers stated they wanted them to be personal. For them to share at their discretion to guild members and raid leaders only.
People that did not post a definite one way or the other were present but even among them, the sentiments leaned toward not having a meter.
So even if it is the "predominant" opinion of discussion from before, which it isn't, the only reason it is brought up is a majority of the time as a concession of the vocal majority to an extremely vocal minority mainly consisting of you and like 7 other people. So go ahead and throw that a majority of people want trackers' stuff out the window. They don't even want them here and this is where the highest concentration of people would voice that opinion.
Noaani, I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because you've been doing this for 3+ years at this point and I can only assume it's because you have a vested interest in making these meters successful for one reason or another. I was done with you when I saw you say that Steven, who this game wouldn't exist without, should have reconsidered his hiring practices if he was hiring people that agreed with him on this topic as if that has the slightest impact on how good they are as a developer and if they were right for the team.
This next bit is my address to the other prevalent arguments for the use of meters
The Metagame
There will always be a metagame. There's no reason to create the game around the metagame because it will exist with or without these tools. It will exist with or without the input of Intrepid. There will always be people out there striving to be the best of the best. But for the everyman, the majority of the player base for this game, it will be objectively less stressful and easier to be social without systems like a meter.
And also, the social element of players figuring out the best build and the top DPS and everything that happens in those best of the best groups...it happened before meters existed and those groups will be just as social without those meters. It's part of the reasons MMOs took off in the first place.
It will make the jobs of raid leaders and guild leaders harder.
Raid and Guild Leaders will always have a hard job. It isn't easy organizing so many people and it never has been. However the right people when put into these positions will be insanely creative and come up with other, typically more social, means of tackling an issue. And in my experience, the best leaders know when their group can push through and get something done and when they need to maybe pull back and restrategize. They don't need tools to micro-manage every aspect of their raid team. They need communication skills. If your raid lead knows that last pull was as good as it's going to get and you're still %10 off on the boss, they will call it and get people geared for the next try, and that's okay. That's progression.
Also, when your members don't feel like they're doing up to snuff they will come to you and ask for help if you're a good leader. If people aren't coming to you for help in the first place and you still aren't where you want to be then maybe you should be raid lead.
Games were simple "back in the day" we need more information now.
Sure game mechanics might have extended to "Don't stand in the fire" back in the day, but that doesn't mean that there have been plenty of cases of very complicated and rewarding encounters across the genre that haven't needed meters either. "How will I know what mechanics my group is wiping to?" You pay attention. You know the fights. It's part of the job of leaders for years and will continue into the future. It doesn't matter if you have all the tools in the world, if you can't teach the fight DPS will never matter. Know what the tank, healers, DPS, and fight needs.
People will make and use trackers anyways.
I am not going to even argue this point because that has been stated to be straight up against the ToS and should be a bannable offence. And quite frankly the number of people in this thread alone that have mentioned that they will be using them regardless disgusts me. But yeah, people will use them. Don't group with them.
I'm sure there's more but this is long enough. I'll probably edit more later to just make this a comprehensive quote of 'my opinion'.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
TLDR: meters are for nerds. A real gammer just plays by feel.
Im also in the no meter camp. Btw.
I'm actually not st all sure what kind of vested interest I could have where suggesting Intrepis incorporate a tracker in to the game would forward said vested interest. It has been suggested that I somehow make money from ACT (tou may have seen that in this thread), but since ACT so free, has no adds and no actual revenue stream other than purely optional donation,even if I did have an interest in it (I dont), and even if I weren't forwarding a suggestion that would render ACT useless (I am), there is no money to be made there anyway.
If you have any thoughts about what you think a vested interest that I may have could look like (other than the aforementioned wanting the game to be as good as it can for as many people as possible), let me know - because this does puzzle me somewhat. So, fun backstory here.
One of the meters I know of for this game has been developed by someone/some people that work/works/worked at Intrepid (unwilling to give any specifics, for obvious reasons).
They made the tracker because literally everyone they talked about at Intrepid said the game should obviously have one. It's a no-brainer.
Margaret is on record (unwittingly, perhaps, but on record regardless) as saying it makes CS much easier when players have access to more data.
Based on this, if Steven thinks the bulk of staff at Intrepid support his idea of not having a combat tracker, he has hired people that will just agree with him to his face, regardless of their opinion.
Since he has no actual development experience, and is reliant on his staff educating and informing him, if he has nothing but "yes men" on staff (which if he believes they all agree with him on this, he does), then who is going to inform him when he is making bad decisions?
This is an HR problem that started at the hiring process - if staff dont believe they can disagree with their boss, they will just agree with them to their face, and then do what they think needs to be done when the boss isnt looking.
This is exactly what has happened. A tracker was created at for Ashes, at Intrepid Studios, by Intrepid staff - because they know it is the best thing for the game.
This is why I know we will have a combat tracker in Ashes - it will run on the damn server if it has to.
It is also worth noting that the current design of the tracker (running client side, not server side) can not be against any ToS. It doesnt interact with the game client or server in any capacity (again, current design), and so Intrepid do not have the legal preview to prevent its use. Literally all they are able to do is state that you can not talk about it in game - which I hope we can agree is fairly lame.
Ad a side note, this is why all FFXIV was able to do about trackers was prevent people from talking about them. If it doesnt interact directly with your software, you cant prevent its use.
This is also why my suggestion is still for Steven to take control. If Intrepid incorporate it in to the game client, they can place limits on it. They can make it so guilds can run a tracker that only works on members of their guild. They can make it so families can opt to pick a personal tracker if they wish. They can also then make it so that people that simply do not want them are able to keep away from them - but this can only ever happen if Intrepid reach out and take control of the situation.
As an aside, when counting opinions on this thread, those that had no real opinion and those that wanted a personal only tracker I counted as being for, rather than against or abstained.
This is because the above suggestion literally caters to them - and that is the suggestion I have been pushing on and off for several years.
It would only lead to more unnecessary work.
Let's say you have ten mages with the same gear, two people do good damage, five do average damage and three do less damage. Tell me who did what damage.
It's also a lot harder to figure out what's missing. Heal, damage, boons, strips, cc, etc?
For established tryhard guilds, where everyone has been playing together for a long time, it is much easier than for new guilds to figure out why it doesn't work like it should. lMO that is a big disadvantage.
This applies to both pvp and pve.
Another point is to show each other how far apart they are. When someone consistently does more damage than another person with the same gear and skill tree, the other person/group knows they're doing something wrong.
It's also a lot easier with a dps tool to improve the output/input for damage, healing, etc.
And for beginners, there are beginner raids anyway. Implementing a DPS tool, or at least allowing third-party DPS tools, is a no-brainer imo.
So, I've been thinking about this for the last few hours, and it doesnt make any real sense.
I can see four possible scenarios here.
1, you are not telling the truth. Not saying this is the one I think most likely, but it is a possibility.
2, the player running the group had a friend they wanted to get in to the group, and so booted the player in the role their friend wants to fill.
It is often easier in a group to remove someone by saying they are underperforming than any other method.
3, the person booted from the group was not enjoyable to group with. Whether it is them constantly talking shit, being a general annoyance, wanting their group to do things a different way, moving too slowly, what ever. This is another of those scenarios where it may just be better to say the person is underperforming than anything else.
4, the person was underperforming so much, that the group leader thought it better to literally roll the dice and hope to get someone better from the general pool of players of the game in question.
I dont consider the combat tracker to be at fault in any of these - and indeed would expect the same result if the combat tracker didnt exist at all. In fact, the only time the persons performance is even at question is the last scenario, and I would say that anyone performing so badly that the group would rather leave things up to the RNG gods is in fact so bad that a combat tracker isnt needed to see it.
If I am wrong, and what you have seen falls in to something else, by all means let me know.
Amend trackers can gtfo, same with add ons that crap is stupid. And we can throw in the like 90% of people that dont use forums not caring about ad ons or dps meters either lmao. People that use the forums is only a tiny fraction of the population of a game, then you have micro fractions in a forum that are loud.
I seriously hope this is not what was referenced as they had it so its in the game like the even planned to give it to players lol. This is alpha of course they need everything to test and try to balance in the most easy and effective way possible.
See, no. You are taking statements from different scenarios and joining them together again.
If the effect of a developer forced variation is minimal (as per your suggestion about variations), players will just ignore that. Players are not going to come up with a new spec every day to maximize efficiency for one day (using the daily example from your suggestion). Rather, they will run a build that is as maximized across all possible variations as they can find.
Even from an absolute min-maxer perspective, this is how it will go. If you attempted to maximize your build each day for subtle variations, you would spend more time on it than you would save.
If you are talking about wanting players to have variation in what builds they can have, and what builds others will accept, the key is in people knowing those builds. The easiest way people can get to know a build is to show them what it can do. The easiest way to show someone what a build can do is to take it out on content and use a combat tracker.
Note that this doesn't mean you can just take any build along - your build does indeed need to perform.
Without a combat tracker, people have no way of knowing what your build is or is not capable of. As such, unless they know you well, you will only be invited to join in on content if you are running a build that is known.
So, if the variation you are after is variation in terms of the builds you are able to run on content with other people, a combat tracker is literally your greatest asset - whether you like combat trackers or not.
Developers having a combat tracker is significantly less useful than players having a combat tracker in a game like Ashes.
In a game like WoW, the developers essentially start a class with the button sequence players will use in combat. Then they develop abilities to arrive at that goal. There is, generally speaking, only one viable way to play each class. This usually ends up with combat systems where classes have combos, or various combat resources to manage - these are the tools developers use to force you to play a class a specific way.
In games like this, developers having access to combat trackers is great.
In a game with complex character builds, where the idea is that players can select what ever abilities they want and eventually create a viable build, developers having combat trackers is basically useless. In such a game, players will understand each class far better than developers - even the developers that made the class in question.
Using your chess example, using a combat tracker would be more akin to analyzing your opponents strategies, favorite moves, risk tolerance etc. Like a combat tracker, these things are all basic data gathering and analysis.
All top end (and wannabe top end) chess players do the above - yet I see nothing at all about it in the rules of the game.
There are other things that would be more akin to using a specialized chess engine, macros being the starting point of that.
I have a friend that did not know that they are doing a sub par dps and it was pointed out by a random person in our group at the time because they had access to a dps meter. As of right now this friend is now capable of surpassing me in damage because they were made aware of their shortcomings and had enough of determination to practice and improve.
I would like for the game to have a way of telling a player that they are not pulling their weight without being scrutinized and shamed.
What I would not like to have is a system that takes damage numbers and creates an internet pp measuring contest that enables only a top 10% of players (even though the difference between like 20 and 80 percentile is negligible) to be able to join raids/dungeons and creates an environment that says "DPS is all that matters".
Problem is that if we get to a point where game tracks your numbers and makes them available for viewing it wont take long for players to make a 3rd party site that compares all those numbers, given a proper addon or log uploads.
This is a tall order but hey, nobody said this would be easy. Self improvement is something I value in games but at this point I am not sure if it wouldn't be better to not have a meter and people would have to figure out for themselves if they do "good" damage on their own by comparing their numbers/damage dealt to a boss/mob and their teammates.
We're going to go line by line here.
Ok, sure... Correct. Now we have a problem. I haven't bothered mentioning this as yet, because I thought it honestly went without saying. However, since I am now explaining this for the THIRD TIME, going over these things that should be obvious is apparently what I now need to do.
Variation isn't going to just swap things around between multiple metas. The only way this could happen is if the game is specifically designed to only allow for those builds (ie, current WoW class design). This literally goes against what Ashes is, and so is simply not going to happen.
As such, this variation HAS TO BE some form of random variation to encounters. Literally nothing else is viable - and this specific variation is already something Intrepid has planned for at least some content in the game. Indeed, because the change would have to be very small, otherwise you wouldn't know what classes you need to bring along on group content. This is something Intrepid have said you will be able to do - while talking about the content variation system they have planned for the game.
So, these variations would need to be small. Indeed. I'll notice a 2% increase in HP to a raid boss. Indeed. Players have no control over it, attempting to assert control over it would take more time than you would gain back since it will change again tomorrow, and the effects are minimal enough that you can just play through it.
Ignoring it is literally the only viable path for players to take with your developer forced variation to content suggestion (and with the system as planned by Intrepid). This line simply does not follow from the above.
You may as well have said "I want some cake, you have some cake, therefore, Teletubbies are scary".
That is the level of disconnect between the first six lines above and the last line. It simply does not follow.
Now, before we carry on dissecting this last line - which I will do in a follow up post if you answer this question - we need an answer to exactly what the variation is you are talking about in this last line.
In chess competitions, players will often watch matches of potential opponents to gather the data I specifically talked about above. Most chess competitions have a move by move of every game they host, so that players can study their opponents.
While it isn't in the games rules, it absolutely is a part of chess - a part that you simply can not rise to any form of success without participating in. It is not cheating in any way, it is not considered cheating by any one - and you are probably the only person in history that has ever suggested that watching two other people playing a game of chess amounts to cheating at chess (which is literally what you said above).
doing research, learning from others, dissecting gameplay step by step are not cheats
it honestly baffles me that mmo forum posters are the only players in existence that derive their enjoyment of their game of choice from boasting on forums that everything they do is self taught and guides are for scrubs
― Plato
No us shooter players play by skill and feeling.
~shameless plug~
Obviously, you've ever only played WoW then. Just give it a moment, Nooani will explain this to you.