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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I disagree on the principle of what the Tracker does. The tracker automates these things, which you could --as a wise leader of the men in your raiding group -- observe with your own eyes.
You don't need the tracker to see if your tank keeps getting his health bar decimated, or that no one is filling it back up with healing spells.
Thus, what will ultimately remain of the combat tracker is the DPS meter, indicating to you which player to kick for sub-par damage (the standard of sub-par being here a subjective metric).
I agree that replacement of a player whilst in the raid is nearly impossible in Ashes, short of family summons. However raid groups can also call it quits, return to town, kick the players from their group and recruit new ones to try again.
And that is not enough info for your argument to be convincing.
The greater the barrier it is for a new player to be bought in to a group, the greater the incentive is to run with what you have.
While we do not have all the info on exactly how much harder it will be to bring in a new player, and thus how much more likely it is that a group will not boot players mid content, all that does is leave the discussion with being a case of how much less likely it is that players will indeed be booted from groups mid content.
The argument that WoW levels of this will happen in Ashes is a non-starter, we are simply left with that discussion as to how much less of it will happen.
So sure, the lack of fast travel is a massive influence here. That will see it happen much less. But then you can add to that the fact that dungeons in Ashes are open, and thus respawn. If you are going to bring in a new player mid content, you will NEED to meet them at the entrance to said dungeon - meaning the group or raid needs to start again from the beginning.
Then you have the PvP factor. A single player moving towards a group or raid area that is likely to be frequented by rivals is a fairly easy target for others to take out. This may mean that even if the group or raid is waiting for this new player at the start of the dungeon, the player may have issues even getting to that location. The group or raid may need to go out to meet them to even get them to that group or dungeon entrance.
If this is a raid, and the raid dungeon is within a group dungeon (as has been suggested as a possibility), then the raid will have to leave the raid dungeon, go to the start of the group dungeon and meet the player there. They may even have to leave that group dungeon to assist said player with other potential issues as above.
These are all things that are significantly more likely to be issues than not. If you are able to put some thought in to that and still come up with the idea that it will be common that people will be booted from groups mid content then I am unsure what to tell you.
You will be objectively wrong on that count, but you are welcome to be wrong. If you are looking at your tank closely enough to know if his health is going down due to the mobs AoE, melee attack, barrage, or a hidden player attacking him, then you are not focusing enough on your role within the group or raid.
If you are able to focus well enough on your role, and are still able to see all of what is happening to your tank, and to your healer, then you have content and combat that is so easy that a combat tracker isn't needed.
I personally hope for better than that from Ashes. If this has not happened to be in nearly 20 years, why would you think it would happen now.
In my time in gaming, I have literally kicked one player from a group or raid. That was because they were not curing ailments as per the instructions given to them, causing 20 consecutive wipes (player was booted, we world first killed the encounter on the next pull).
I have literally never kicked a player for low DPS. I have never even SEEN it happen. Not even one time. Not in pick up groups, not in pick up raids, and definitely not in any group setting. Think about this for a minute.
Imagine you are running that group or raid. You are not being all that successful, and you know it is because a portion of the group or raid are not up to par for the content you are on.
If you feel that the group or raid as a whole is still good enough to take on the content that you formed said group or raid to take on, why on earth would you go back to town - which involves travel time and potential PvP - reform the group or raid - which involves time - and then travel back to the place you just came from - which again involves travel time and potential PvP?
Literally the only reason you would do that is if the group or raid as you have it now is not good enough to take on the content you want to kill. If they are good enough as a whole, then you would push onward, because that is the most efficient thing to do.
You would only follow your suggestion above if there was no way the group or raid was able to take on the intended content. If this is the case, is it not in literally everyone's best interest that the group or raid be dissolved then and there? Even if a portion of that group or raid want to try again...
However, it is only true because in a game like WoW, the combat system is so damn simple that a four year old can master a class.
You can't create any challenge that is based purely on WoW's combat system, because there is no challenge in that combat system. This is why mechanics are what WoW raids lean on to add challenge. Other games lean more on the combat system for that challenge, often throwing in chaotic elements to encounters rather than requiring perfect execution of what basically amounts to a Dance Dance Revolution routine, as WoW requires.
While it is true that we do not know the metric that Ashes will use to determine how they will increase the difficulty of mobs, what we DO know is that what ever metric it is, a combat tracker will assist players with it. It could well be that they use how many wipes the raid had on the previous encounter, but it could also be that they only take the successful pull in to consideration.
In fact, a combat tracker may even be the only way of knowing objectively what metrics are being looked at. If the developers don't outright tell us, this is guaranteed to be the case.
I have fingers, fool!
WoW is probably my least played MMO. I played Never Winter Nights when it was 2D Top Down on America Online. I played the current NWN. I played Mortal, I've played Mortal II. I played Guild Wars. I played New World. Yes, I've played WoW. I play Entropia Universe.
You're confusing kicking people mid Raid with Gatekeeping. Raid is done, numbers are checked, names are marked off lists. You don't know the numbers fully until the Raid is done. What I said was, when it's done and numbers get looked at, those under a certain threshold get kicked. You don't kick people for lacking damage MID RAID, you kick people for pulling Mobs they aren't supposed to, or triggering Mechanics they aren't supposed to that lead to Wipes. Because just not doing a lot of damage, that's still more damage than an empty slot, so as long as they aren't actively wiping your group you wouldn't kick Mid Raid.
Tell me you make a lot of assumptions without telling me you make a lot of assumptions. You have no clue about my MMO experience, and you didn't ask. You could have asked, you should have asked.
What I'm talking about is DPS Meters setting a benchmark for Numbers that then lead to Gate Keeping Content which then becomes META.
And how can a Raid Leader do his job without Meters? Same way we did back in the 90's, before we had all those meters. Pay attention to what is going on. Have the knowledge of what the abilities are, what they look like, watch your Team to see what they are doing. Is Ranged DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that by watching them. Is Melee DPS dropping good rotations? You can see that, by watching them. Are Heals doing their job? You can see that... can you guess how you can see that? Guess.
It's a skill. Looking at the visuals, watching your group. It takes a LOT of knowledge, you have to know what these things look like. You have to understand why the rotations are what they are. And if something new is happening, you have to be looking at the reasoning for it and how that influences the action.
You do realize MMOs were a thing BEFORE Trackers were a thing, right? There was a time we did these things WITHOUT Trackers. And no, not every one has this kind of skill. Nor should everyone. If everyone can just be a Top Raid Leader, then no one is a Top Raid Leader.
Also, take this into consideration. I spec my Abilities to lower Defense. I'm casting the same Fire Ball you are. Mine does less damage than yours. But because of this EVERYONE in the Raid now does more damage... more than offsets my lack of damage. But some lazy Leader looks, sees you have more Damage than me, doesn't understand the Team is doing more Damage BECAUSE of me.
The idea is to get away from Lazy Meter Reading. The idea is to get back to UNDERSTANDING WHY a Player is going with a certain set up, and what that brings.
You don't need Meters to be a Good Raid Leader. In fact, some would argue if you need Meters you can't be a Good Raid Leader.
First, games in the 90s were dead simple.
Second, combat trackers existed in the 90s.
Fun fact, combat trackers existed before MMO's - despite what you seem to think. They weren't invented for the MMO genre, they were redesigned for it. I mean, wouldn't you be kicking everyone if the raid is done?
So, you want to talk about gatekeeping as being the Big Bad Evil now. Cool.
If I run a raid with you and it is successful, why would I not welcome you back? Sure, your DPS may be a bit lower, but so what? We were successful, you didn't pull mobs you weren't supposed to pull, nothing at all like that.
You have so far failed to give me a reason as to why you think this gate keeping would even happen, you have just asserted that it would with literally nothing at all to back that up with.
I mean, if you had just basic logic to back it up, that would be enough. The problem is, you don't. If we were successful with you on a raid in the past, why would we not bring you again? A combat tracker will tell me what you are doing.
However, what if someone else in the raid has that debuff, and they do not stack? Or what if we have other debuffs that reduce defense against that damage type down to below the soft cap - or the hard cap? A combat tracker will also give me the information I need to work that out. Sure, you could ask, but then we have 40 people all needing to compare specs, and that would literally take longer than the raid itself.
A good raid leader is one that recognizes that a minute and a half of wasted raid time in a game like Ashes equates to a full hour of combined player time.
A good raid leader respects the time of the members of their raid.
As such, a good raid leader uses what ever tools are at their disposal - approved by the game publisher or not - and does what they can to not waste the time of the members of the raid.
Combat trackers are such a tool.
Fortunately, they already exist for Ashes - that part isn't up for debate.
And toes! Don't forget toes!
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
Funny thing is - as I am reading this, I am planning the next social event for my team at work... deciding between paintball and bowling - though an escape room may be on the cards.
That said, I do have data on each person on my team. I go over it with each of them twice a year.
I get the feeling that you seem to think that these two things can't coexist.
Agreed.
Combat dummies are only any good for comparing a player in solo combat.
Even if you could get dummies that allow for multiple people to take them on, you are still only looking at comparing builds on blank targets.
Min-maxing and a meta are things that will happen anyway.
One needs to only contrast Archeage and EQ2 to understand how wrong this statement is.
EQ2 had high combat tracker use (ACT was developed for EQ2). The game has no real class specific meta, people generally run which ever build they think it best for them at the time - often just a build they will enjoy.
More to the point, EQ2 was one of the least toxic games I have ever played.
Archeage, on the other hand, has very low combat tracker use. I am the only player I know for sure to use one.
However, the game had a fairly strict meta - one that didn't shift at all for about 5 years. The game is also incredibly toxic.
So, based on these two games, your assertion that combat trackers lead to toxicity or meta gameplay are just outright false.
A game will have a strict class based meta if players feel there are no real options for how to best play a class. If you have combat trackers, and they show that classes only have one build that is viable, then that will become the meta.
Basically, a game having a class based meta is a result of the game not balancing builds within classes overly well.
Toxicity to me seems to be a result primarily of games that treat players as disposable, and so players treat each other as disposable. Archeage has a lot of content that has groups automatically form, and as such you don't really need the people on your server to particularly like you.
In games where groups for content are only ever formed by players, where players decide who to invite, people tend to be less toxic, because the more toxic they are, the less content they will be able to run.
If AA is anywhere close to that, I'd understand why barely anyone used trackers. Though I remember you saying that your friends used trackers in L2, so maybe you just missed the people who did the same in AA (just as I never met any trackers in L2)?
I personally hope this is not the case in Ashes cause I'd love the game to have such a deep variety of class/augment interactions that you can't just have "the best party setup". Mainly because in my experience you just had to level up the characters required for particular bosses if you wanted to farm them and get the chance to get the loot (cause guilds split that up by farm involvement).
Yes, they do.
Min-maxing and a meta are things that will happen anyway.
Yes, there will be attempts and Intrepid should fight it every step of the way, as they have stated they will, with their 0 tolerance policy towards add-ons.
One needs to only contrast Archeage and EQ2 to understand how wrong this statement is.
and I only need to pick two other games with completely different experiences to show how utterly redundant this point is and how utterly wrong you are
So, based on these two games, your assertion that combat trackers lead to toxicity or meta gameplay are just outright false.
Yeah, and based on two examples that I could choose, from the thousands of games I have played over 3 decades that, your claims are outright false. See how this works?
If it exists as a 3rd party tool, people will use it regardless of it is punishable or not. It might as well just be in game as standard otherwise you end up with GW2 balancing issues.
The players in GW2 that actually look at DPS value can do do triple or double with their rotations vs the average player which the game is balanced around. This makes the story content either trivial or overtuned.
Or at least the leaders would have to be, if the stat info can be applied to all the raid members. I do like specialties and limited availability based on different characteristics and stats. But I feel like this kind of feature being limited would be wrong.
Mainly for PvP actually.
In Archeage, it didn't really matter what class you bought along in PvE. Even with the Red Dragon, if you had some tanks and some healers, and then just a bunch of other players, you were good.
The main thing I used it for was to find gaps. Some bugs, some poor design, some undocumented aspects about specific builds - things like that.
This is the sort of thing I do in every MMO, and then generally compile a report on them and pass it to the developers. I didn't do this last part in Archeage, because XL had already well and truly proven that they thought they knew everything about the game and how people would play it - their arrogance makes Blizzard even at their worst look fairly tame.
Instead, I just took advantage of what I found out myself. I saw that all three classes that people ran for the games PvP meta (Daggerspell, Darkrunner and something else I can't remember now) all had similar flaws that a single specific build was able to exploit. Since about 80% of the player base ran one of those three classes, and since it didn't matter what you had in PvE, when I ran the off-meta build I came up with, I was able to take on 3 or 4 better geared, better "skilled" players with ease.
Interestingly, the build I used to run is the new meta.
Indeed it is - and different people derive fun from different activities.
Are you trying to push your version of fun on to everyone?
That's the thing.
If a game is well designed, there is no one size fits all answer.
WoW has one size fits all, because the game is designed to have it.
If Ashes is well designed, and combat trackers are heavily used, if someone tells you "this is the spec you should use", the only thing you should assume is that the spec they are talking about is probably not one you should use - unless you are in exactly the same situation they are in.
With a combat tracker, the only way I could give you actual answers (as opposed to recommendations) is if I look over your gear, what gear is easily available to you that you do not have, what your situation typically is in groups and raids, and what content you are going on.
Without all of that taken in to account, I can't give you answers, and I wouldn't attempt to give you any.
I'm not a fan of over "balancing" pvp. I'd rather see new skills added than continuously making effective builds rebalanced to do less damage. Too much balancing leads to a bland pvp experience where it doesn't particularly matter what role or class you play.
Ashes is a PvX game.
This....this is the infuriating part of this conversation. You're trying to insinuate everyone's fun needs to be a priority, while also putting yourself above the logical point:
This MMO has a design philosophy in mind to be a social first MMO and a majority of social players derive no enjoyment out of having numbers shoved in their face to play a significant portion of the game. Yet, because you want to have numbers it's encroaching on your fun if it isn't there.
You know what, this whole experience is collectively someone's ideal version of fun. It could be Steven's, it could be you, it could be some random sap who shows his ball sack on YouTube. But if it has to be someone's I hope it's someone who cares about the mental health and wellbeing of the players and makes life maybe a little bit harder for the people who need to be the best at everything.
Then more people will play the game and more people will enjoy playing the game. More people will have fun without this feature than with it. Even if it isn't you.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
They've pretty much already said PvP is going to be a mess balance wise because they are going to focus on the PvX element and personally I hope they stick to that. Balancing games around PvP never really ends well.
Though this might be worth a separate thread.
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast