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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Thanks for the reply.
Honestly, this is the reaction most reasonable people have to this suggestion - it just kind of works for everyone that isnt being purposefully unreasonable.
There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed.
But sure, everyone cheers.
Nooani is fighting to have this limited combat tracker.
limited to guilds that WANT to have it = no problem, you don't join guild for its name, color of logo but for its mindset, goals and way to reach goals. so only people who are ok with combat tracker will join guilds with it, while you who hate it will never join such guild, and if you are guild leader, you will never chose this perk, in favor of another guild perk. (Because yes... being a guild perk, it won't be totally free)
But yes, nooani seeing what problem could come, he tries to fight for a far less problematic way to do, he is a bad neighbor.
Because you, holy saint, defenders of laws... You just consider "ban them all"
When nooani says "People will use it and won't get ban" it is not a defiance, it is fact... You may dislike it and cry about them being bad neighbor what would it change ? FFXIV is perfect example... people are recorded without even knowing it, and their data are uploaded on a well known site, people can use (and some are using) to reject them from their party...
This is the way Ashes is going right now. And nooani, just want to reduce or even avoid it.
Why his idea would avoid it ? Most people don't care about parsing unknown. And if they have already built in tracker in game they won't have to take another one... always better/easier to use the tools directly in game.
Yes, people are toxic, not the tool, and YES seeing numbers on the tool opens a way to be toxic, and... YES they should be ban, not for using the tool, but for being toxic.
Now you seems to be "law law law" is the way to be a good neighbor right ?
One of my parent's neighbor, for years, and years complains about his bad neighbor behaviour, all according to law... It went to a point that police and mayor now, uses any way they can (with law) to make his life harsh. The good neighbor is not the one that respect a law or a spirit of a law, the good neighbor is the one that is smiling, offering help, invite others to diner... I personally fire wood bbq which is not allowed in my town... neighbors never complained, and i know if a new neighbor complain, they would be angry because... they like when i invite them to share a good piece of fish or meat cooked this way. He would be the bad neighbor in this story, in the mind of all others.
Bad/good are subjectiv things, the law don't say what is bad or good, it says what is allowed and what is forbidden. This is different. And a law can be bad... really bad. history has lot of example of it.
About activate or not : Worst idea. it add a thing to do (less userfriendly) to have the same result... dumb people will kick brainlessly anyone who dont activate it. and still kick people activating it but with bad result.
normal people will say "no problem" do run, and begin to mind problems only if their begin to struggle. as does with a totally open combat tracker.
NT People don't want to have DPs meters in any form, just because they say they would be ok not wanting to argue anymore, etc doesn't mean they want DPS meters. You are just trying to argue everyone post to get them to somewhat change their mind so you can slowly move the goal post over. Almost everyone doesn't want them at all. Classic manipulation, simply stop trying to argue everyone on it and try just hearing what people say and the direction of what they want.
DPS meters are toxic, spend time learning the game, stop trying to get the DPS meter to do all the work for you. Just use the combat log in game..
"Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, 'Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!' It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, 'Oh! We need to do exactly this.' Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group."
---Steven
Steven means... learn how to play the game without relying on DPS meters.
And the devs should design the game such that we don't need to rely on DPS meters.
You know that the devs consider players using DPS meters to be against the rules, but you want to cheat anyway.
Rules are rules; not laws. Cheating in a video game is not breaking a law. We agree.
@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
You're the one that said "the community doesnt want trackers", I simply pointed out that there are only a handful of people that are posting that they dont want them at all - when the VAST MAJORITY of people are perfectly happy with the guild/family suggestion.
As to my trying to somehow move the goalpost, I'm not sure which goalpost it is you are talking about.
I've been arguing for a family based tracker since basically the beginning. That wont change.
Those people that helped Steven - they helped him by using objective data from a tracker.
Sure, he may not have used one - indeed he may not have known they were even a thing. His guild would have though, at least some people - and those people are the ones that are best suited to helping out.
So, Steven has this memory of MMO's without combat trackers being some.magical time where players helped each other and everything was just grand - except that memory was actually of a time when people ran combat trackers, but had fixed servers without cross server play, had no automated grouping, and so wanted to get the most out of the people around them.
Basically, what Steven is remembering here is what I have been saying all along about combat trackers but no LFG, teleporting or cross server grouping.
Just to throw in here since I thought this was known already, no one I know has any issue with trackers.
Certainly not the tracker type Noaani has suggested, which seems like a good idea.
We are silent because when you have a skilled advocate willing to put in their time on something they understand better than you, you shut up and let them do their thing and don't get in the way.
I know this doesn't matter to you specifically, Mag, just noting it to remind people not to be pulled in by your 'whole community' assertion.
Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.
You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.
I think you need to go back over the thread and realizes how many people are against it and were tired of arguing with you. You simply want DPS meters to make the game easier for you, rather ran putting the time and and figuring things out yourself. All pints brought up have just been excuses for laziness.
Most the people here don't want DPS meters, they will have a combat log that will give them the information they need to see their damage and such. You ask the same people if they would prefer a game without dps meters and the answer would be clear and why they don't want other people to see information on them through a DPS meter.
The fact you get this much push back through a 100 pages should tell you that right there. They are toxic and people don't want that garbage. Use your combat tracker, use your brain, experiment and testing things out. There is far more to be gained from that and sharing information and people find the best ways to adjust their combat and grow. in groups and themselves.
Now if we get into a conversation of all the people that don't post if they were to this wouldn't even be a question. Everyone would be crapping on this kind of post compared to the few people that are for DPS meters that haven't commented.
Put your hands up we can box this.
The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.
It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.
That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.
I do consider "Ban them all", if "all" means "Those that agreed to a ToS they knew they would never honor." Yes, that is my stance, completely.
Should we follow a ToS we agree to, or not? You tell me. Break it down for me.
My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but where I am from, if I have a right that is pre-existing and someone comes in and says they want to take that right away, they are automatically looked on unfavorably.
A company that attempts to remove an individual's rights where I am from is considered an oppressor. Now again, maybe this is different where you are, maybe your society considered oppressors to be good. I still neither know nor care.
The other thing to keep on mind, this whole discussion here is based on Intrepid using language in their ToS that had never been used, and will likely cause a bit of controversy if they did. The invasiveness that would need to be put in place would absolutely see most gaming outlets report on it.
As it stands now, without needing to use "loopholes", my expectation is that the combat trackers made now are not going to be against the ToS.
Edit to add: the ToS cant just say "no trackers". They need to specify what functions they dont want software performing, AND how they dont want it interacting with the game client. Both need to be present for it to be in the ToS.
Since combat trackers exist that do not interact with the game client, the ToS for that piece of software simply can not prevent me from using them - as once again the ToS for the game client can ONLY cover how the game client is used, and how other software can interact with it. If your software is not interacting with the game client at all, the ToS of that game client simply can not prevent you using it
The problem here is - even if it is against the ToS, how do you ban people? As I said, they dont need to be run on the same computer as the game client.
In order to ban people using trackers - assuming they have grounds to do so - you still need to identify people using them.
How do they even do that?
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.
And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.
What you are now talking about is an FFXIV style of tracker acceptance.
More people in that game use trackers than I would expect to see in Ashes.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Clearly, this only works if you have a solid understanding of the topic, and a solid understanding of your position within that topic. If either of these are not that well established, a slippery slope argument may be of some merit, but it is akin to saying you have no issue with where the debate is now, but are afraid that it may lead to somewhere you have an issue with.
As such, since no one is talking about combat assistants, there is no need to debate them at all yet - unless you agree with me that trackers are fine, and wish to draw that line before combat assistants.
Another point to note that you may not be aware of - combat trackers are not inherently add ons. An add on is - as it sounds - an addition to an application. It is essentially a mod.
A combat tracker like ACT is it's own application, and so isnt an add on.
I am against add ons, and will happily get in to a debate as to why add ons in themself shouldnt be a thing in Ashes.
However, that is not the same discussion as a combat tracker, especially a combat tracker built in to the game.
The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.
So not quite comparable there bud.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Care to clarify?
Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.
Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.