DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Jxshuwu wrote: »

Personally i really dislike DPS meters.
I've played MMOs with some people that are newer to MMO's and i have experienced multiple times that my friends are getting votekicked because they can't keep up with the dps. ESPECIALLY in WoW! Idk what it is about WoW but man there is something wrong with those players, just overall not nice people to talk to (again, in my experience).

The problem here isn't combat trackers, it is a game that has a system that enables players to be booted and replaced immediately.

If a game is going to treat players as disposable, you can't blame players of that game for treating each other the same.

Play a game where there isn't this same ability to replace players mid-dungeon, and you won't see players being booted mid-dungeon.

Funny how that happens...

Jxshuwu

Noaani wrote: »

Jxshuwu wrote: »

Personally i really dislike DPS meters.
I've played MMOs with some people that are newer to MMO's and i have experienced multiple times that my friends are getting votekicked because they can't keep up with the dps. ESPECIALLY in WoW! Idk what it is about WoW but man there is something wrong with those players, just overall not nice people to talk to (again, in my experience).

The problem here isn't combat trackers, it is a game that has a system that enables players to be booted and replaced immediately.

If a game is going to treat players as disposable, you can't blame players of that game for treating each other the same.

Play a game where there isn't this same ability to replace players mid-dungeon, and you won't see players being booted mid-dungeon.

Funny how that happens...

You're right about that, if its easy to get a replacement, that player isn't worth a lot.
However, it can and will still be a source of toxicity, perhaps just reduced compared to WoW.
Maybe they wouldn't kick you as fast, but flaming will still occur and it ruins the experience for other players in the same party even if they didn't get kicked. Could argue that they should leave the party and find a better, less toxic party or just ignore them but that's easier said than done and it'd be better if the source of toxicity wasn't there to begin with so that the toxic players have nothing to 'use' against you. DPS meter isn't necessary, i wouldn't wager the chances over something unnecessary.

Dygz

Exactly!

Aerlana

Jxshuwu wrote: »

it'd be better if the source of toxicity wasn't there to begin with so that the toxic players have nothing to 'use' against you.

The problem is... you can't avoid parser to exist. so the "source of toxicity" will always exist, the fact it is not in game built won't change anything.

BUT a personnal parser is fine : for lot of people it will be enough to not watch to other program to do it

Wickedjay

I mean, the best of both worlds is a 3rd party DPS meter. FF14 players use ACT and it does a decent job of telling you if you suck or not.
I agree that personal DPS meter would be ok and that if the data is available to other players, it creates animosities.
The way Square Enix does it is actually wise: They don't really care as long as you don't start criticizing or flaunting about it. (Roughly)

Jxshuwu

Aerlana wrote: »

Jxshuwu wrote: »

it'd be better if the source of toxicity wasn't there to begin with so that the toxic players have nothing to 'use' against you.

The problem is... you can't avoid parser to exist. so the "source of toxicity" will always exist, the fact it is not in game built won't change anything.

BUT a personnal parser is fine : for lot of people it will be enough to not watch to other program to do it

The source of toxicity isn't the dps meter, but the player. I should've specified it a little better, however dps meter does help these toxic players with giving them a reason to be toxic (a bad reason, but for them it will be a justified one). Not allowing a dps meter doesn't change toxic players, they will be toxic regardless but it makes it so that their toxicity wont flow into the game as easily. Toxic people always find a way to be toxic, to me its more so about the frequency of it. Avoiding toxicity fully is impossible.
---

Example NO DPS METER: You're in a dungeon, and the dungeon is going smooth so the toxic person isn't being toxic because he cant see who is performing the best or worst through a dps meter. (Yes theres exceptions to this, some people will still find ways to be toxic)

Example WITH DPS METER: You're in a dungeon, dungeon is going fine but toxic person still flames the bottom dps because they're simply on the bottom or is playing an ''op class'' and they ''should be top dps''.

^^^^^
This last example is exactly what happened to us multiple times, we tend to call those people elitists in the game. Maybe im just biased because of my own experiences though, who knows.

A personal dps meter wouldn't be too bad i guess c: i kinda like that. Feel like i went off track a little bit, sorry lmfao.

GreatThodric

Big NO to DPS meters or any other kind of meters. Don't make Ashes into a meta-gaming hellscape like WoW. It undoubtedly makes the game a less enjoyable experience for all involved. It always splits the player base into hardcore vs casual players, and new players will automatically be discouraged to even try the game because active players will not teach them how to play (ie. killing the social aspect of the game).

Ashes will live or die on the social aspect. And while it can be fun for some players to min/max, those players are not as plentiful as you'd think. So catering to the loud minority is a really bad idea. No one wants to play an MMO through YouTube guides. MMORPG's are so much MORE than how much damage you do per fight. It's actually totally irrelevant in most circumstances. 90% of the player base don't need it and the 10% that do will always find ways to segregate themselves from the masses anyway.

Some of the best experiences I've had in MMO's are when I get to teach new players how to play from in-game. Not only do we get to be social which the MMO's are built for, but I also get to feel helpful while making friends. DPS meters have been, and always will be, killing this aspect of MMO's.

Meta-gaming is poison to MMORPG's. We should fight it any way we can.

Malapapas

1 - This game is dual-role i.e. Tank/Healer, Healer/DPS, DPS/Support etc...
2 - As mentioned above, "Support" will be a thing which makes this not a true holy trinity game.
3 - Because of 1 & 2 above, DPS meters cannot accurately represent the value of a party member.

Noaani

Jxshuwu wrote: »

However, it can and will still be a source of toxicity, perhaps just reduced compared to WoW.

@Jxshuwu

I've made the following comparison earlier in this thread, but I'm happy to make it again.

Look at three games - WoW, EQ2 and Archeage.

WoW and Archeage have very toxic communities. EQ2 has one of the least toxic communities of any MMO I have played.

Yet, WoW and EQ2 have high combat tracker use, while Archeage has exceedingly low - the lowest of any MMO I have played.

So, WoW and Archeage are both games with very toxic communities, yet are at opposite ends in terms of combat tracker use.

What these games do have in common though, that EQ2 doesn't, is that both of those games have systems where players can be easily replaced during specific content pieces.

On the other hand EQ2 is a game where if you have a reputation as being generally disagreeable, you simply wont get invited to do content, and no one will accept your invitation to join you.

Basically, what this demonstrates is that if a game makes it so your reputation matters, people wont be toxic to each other. If you make a fame where your reputation doesnt matter, people will be toxic to each other.

A combat tracker is nothing more than one way people can be toxic towards each other (though even then, not really - all a combat tracker does is tell the truth).

Basically, the amount of toxicity in a game is determined 100% by how important player reputation is, the more important it is, the less toxicity there will be. A combat tracker does not add to this amount of toxicity, though it can be used as a vehicle to deliver toxicity - though that toxicity was going to happen anyway.

Noaani

Malapapas wrote: »

1 - This game is dual-role i.e. Tank/Healer, Healer/DPS, DPS/Support etc...
2 - As mentioned above, "Support" will be a thing which makes this not a true holy trinity game.
3 - Because of 1 & 2 above, DPS meters cannot accurately represent the value of a party member.

A combat tracker measures everything, not just DPS.

I am absolutely on favor of keeping combat trackers out of the hands of anyone that doesnt understand this.

Galux

Noaani wrote: »

A combat tracker does not add to this amount of toxicity, though it can be used as a vehicle to deliver toxicity

My take on why a combat tracker should be left out of the game, as long as the monster/boss will be able to be killed it does not really matter whether it takes 10 minutes or 16 minutes. If the boss becomes so tough that the game requires a very well performed rotation in order to beat i believe there's problems on other ends than dps.

But perhaps for a planned content that's only meant for the top 1-2% then sure, i'd consider that a special circumstance to have aid from a combat tracker, as long as it's not the games everyday standard.

Noaani

Galux wrote: »

If the boss becomes so tough that the game requires a very well performed rotation in order to beat i believe there's problems on other ends than dps.

First point, a combat tracker provides far more information than just DPS. It provides information on healing, crowd control, mitigation, threat control, buffing, debuffing and also on encounter specific mechanics that may be present. To say a combat tracker only deals in DPS is to say you don't understand what a combat tracker is - and as such perhaps shouldn't participate in a discussion about them (or should become more educated in them before doing so, at the very least).

Further, if a game has content that can be defeated without a combat tracker, then that is a game with simple encounter design in comparison to what raiders are used to taking on.

Having a combat tracker allows the developers to create more complex encounters than they could otherwise. Perhaps a good analogy for this is the difference in a math exam when it is designed for students to do mentally, vs an exam that allows for students to bring in a calculator.

While "technically" a student should still be able to do the second exam even without a calculator, by the time the student gets to that point there is no longer any need to test them on basic arithmetic - the students are beyond that and so the exam can move on to more complex topics, with a calculator being allowed so those students need not be burdened with that basic arithmetic, instead focusing on the bigger picture.

Galux

Noaani wrote: »

First point, a combat tracker provides far more information than just DPS.

*sigh* Of course it does more than just dps but the most popular feature used by the vast majority of players is to track their damage unless they are doing very specific content hence i only mentioned dps in my example.

Noaani wrote: »

Further, if a game has content that can be defeated without a combat tracker, then that is a game with simple encounter

There's so many ways to design encounters and make them challenging & fun at the same time without locking it behind a need for a combat tracking feature.

Noaani wrote: »

Having a combat tracker allows the developers to create more complex encounters than they could otherwise.

The devs can still design complex encounters by utilizing other elements of a fight to make it more challenging. There's so much more to a fight that could be done to make an interesting encounter that would be challenging enough.

rikardp98

Galux wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

A combat tracker does not add to this amount of toxicity, though it can be used as a vehicle to deliver toxicity

My take on why a combat tracker should be left out of the game, as long as the monster/boss will be able to be killed it does not really matter whether it takes 10 minutes or 16 minutes. If the boss becomes so tough that the game requires a very well performed rotation in order to beat i believe there's problems on other ends than dps.

But perhaps for a planned content that's only meant for the top 1-2% then sure, i'd consider that a special circumstance to have aid from a combat tracker, as long as it's not the games everyday standard.

For most people killing the most is what matters. But for some, being the best and killing the boss faster than anyone else matters.
Wow classic is a good example. Most people, casual / semi-casual players that for the most part didn't use combat tracker cleared Naxx in around 2 to 3 hours. However, the absolutely most hardcore players that optimized everything, with timers, classes, buffs, using the combat tracker to see what that could to better, cleared Naxx in under an hour.

So no, killing the boss isn't just what matters, some people want to be the best and the fastest killing that boss.

I also want to say that, it's a huge difference between a in-game UI dps meter and a built in combat tracker for after fight analysis. I can live without the DPS meter, but we need the combat tracker.

Noaani

Galux wrote: »

There's so many ways to design encounters and make them challenging & fun at the same time without locking it behind a need for a combat tracking feature.

Then why has no MMO ever done this?

To address the rest of your reply - if you know there is more to a combat tracker than just DPS, don't write out a post that suggests otherwise. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about, and propagates the notion that DPS is all they are used for even more.

It should take no more than 20 key strokes to achieve this - less than it takes to alter the color of your text. Spend the time with the content of what you are writing before you waste time with the aesthetics of it.

Lastly, the developers of any game (assuming competent developers) can create content up to and past the limit of what players are able to take on. It is perfectly possible to create an encounter that is so complex that even with a combat tracker, it is simply not possible.

Since a combat tracker allows players to take on more than they would be able to otherwise (in the same way using a calculator allows students to take on problems in an exam they wouldn't otherwise be able to, given the same time limits), it is then a foregone conclusion that developers are able to create more complex and detailed encounters when they assume players will use a combat tracker.

This is why every MMO that has had complex encounters has had developers that assume players are using a combat tracker, and every game that doesn't assume this has had easy, boring content (Archeage, BDO, early GW2 etc).

Galux

rikardp98 wrote: »

For most people killing the most is what matters. But for some, being the best and killing the boss faster than anyone else matters

Absolutely! I get that. And these people can still do that, there's nothing stopping them from discovering every nook and cranny to min/max in an encounter and if that's what make them tick then that's what they should do!

rikardp98 wrote: »

Wow classic is a good example. Most people, casual / semi-casual players that for the most part didn't use combat tracker cleared Naxx in around 2 to 3 hours. However, the absolutely most hardcore players that optimized everything, with timers, classes, buffs, using the combat tracker to see what that could to better, cleared Naxx in under an hour.

WoW classic is not a good example. Look i understand what you're going for but you also have to think about the incredibly large portion of players who had a very tough time finding a spot for dungeon groups & raids simply due to them not being the optimal spec. Many guilds required their raid members to acquire world buffs. And all of this on content that was very very simple.

Anyway, summary of this. If a person want to min/max content to be the very fastest then he can find a group of people who shares the same philosophy as him/her and just min/max the crap out of the content to their hearts extent, even without a combat tracker.

Noaani

Galux wrote: »

If a person want to min/max content to be the very fastest then he can find a group of people who shares the same philosophy as him and just do it, with or without a combat tracker.

This is kind of like saying if two people want to swap items, they can just get on with it - with or without a trading mechanic. If you want to measure a piece of wood, go ahead - with or without a tape measure or ruler.

A combat tracker is what allows min/maxing.

It is the measure, the standard to compare yourself with others. It is the tool for troubleshooting, the tool for peer review (as well as developer review).

This quoted statement simply does not make sense.

Galux

Noaani wrote: »

This quoted statement simply does not make sense.

I agree, it was badly formulated. English is not my native language.

Aerlana

rikardp98 wrote: »

Wow classic is a good example. Most people, casual / semi-casual players that for the most part didn't use combat tracker cleared Naxx in around 2 to 3 hours. However, the absolutely most hardcore players that optimized everything, with timers, classes, buffs, using the combat tracker to see what that could to better, cleared Naxx in under an hour.

Also, wow classic was a game where theorycraft was already totally done.
At first from vanilla time, and then more detailed with Private server.

So people all went with "meta" builds, (where there is around 10% of talent point free to use to whatever you like).
And "metabuilds" came from math on paper but also tests... with parser.

The problem i see from people that goes a deep "no for parser" don't understand that there will always people trying to min/max. Just see FFXIV, many people are totally against it. Do a topic with "should devs add in game parser" and you will have people approving... and also some totally against. The reality is "parser exist, FFlog exist and Yoshida/SE can't do nothing against it" Like modding is totally forbidden in FFXIV and... they can't do anything against it.

Min/maxing its own character only need a personnal parser, (and nooani said it was what we would have)
The simple existence of this personnal parser will reduce a lot the "group parser" as tier program.

Also, instead of fighting parser like Don Quichotte fights treadmill,
Learn to use it (don't change your build if you like it, but understand all its strength/weakness and adapt your gameplay with this knowledge will make you a better player than people following meta and doing "best build" without fully understanding it)
It will also avoid to see a "meta" dictating what players have to play. because personnal parser will allow to do test and show that, even if it is surprising the build A can do as much heal than build B... so stop saying only B can do the job. Lot of time during the long wow life, we was in "this is the best build for [class]" untill we discovered that changing one thing allowed a second build to do a real good job.

Galux

Noaani wrote: »

It should take no more than 20 key strokes to achieve this - less than it takes to alter the color of your text. Spend the time with the content of what you are writing before you waste time with the aesthetics of it.

Take a breather dear. Now you're just trying to find things to nag on me, completely off-topic.

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