The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason.
You seem to think I came in to this community at the same point in time as you - I've been here for 5 years now.
I mean, I put $500 on this game long before their stance on trackers was known.
It wasnt something I even considered looking in to before putting that money down - because literally no game has ever sustained a position against trackers, so why would this one?
After putting that money down, they decided to take up the position they have.
Since I am not obliged to agree with that position, nor to abide by it at all, I will not.
I have at times said that I would gladly take a refund of the money I have put in to the game, should Intrepid offer it.
You are literately a issue, you are going to be loud now and quiet later on if you realize you can get banned for it.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
What would they ban him for? For finding out he used a tracker on his phone that has no intrepid app installed?
in that case a fast google search spits out this:
"Legality. Phone hacking, being a form of surveillance, is illegal in many countries unless it is carried out as lawful interception by a government agency"
Does the presence of those tools increase the propensity and likelihood of a negative social interaction taking place? Yes.
I disagree with this statement.
I have had far more positive interactions because of trackers (literally hundreds) than I have had negative interactions because of trackers (literally zero).
While I get that some people would have had negative interactions because of them, there are - from what I can see - far more people that are taking other negative experiences and blaming them on trackers.
If you are in a group running content in WoW, and you are obviously slower than the rest of the group, the group is going to replace you. This isnt the fault of trackers, it is the fault of the LFG system (and the fault of the player for not being fast enough - they are as much to blame as anyone here).
Remove trackers and the group can still see you are slower and so will replace you. Remove the LFG system and the group is unlikely to replace you because getting a replacement to them is going to be difficult.
How can we then point to the tracker and say it is at fault?
You may be right about Ashes not having world firsts, but you also may not be. I would suspect that there will be a singular boss that is the apex of the game, and would also expect to see one for each expansion. If not a specific boss, then a specific quest chain or some such.
Server firsts though, they will absolutely be a thing.
I will say, based on the above post, you have decided to drop the argument that was being made about combat trackers being bad because they will lead to combat assistants. This is a good decision.
I don't believe you, you have already stated you will go against the TOS and clearly will lie later on when you are using trackers. You aren't a honest person you are trying to say whatever you can to involve tracks, etc.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
You aren't making valid points, and lying or skewing context of what happens to convince yourself it isn't toxic isn't going to work.
We all know you will do whatever means possible and that includes being disingenuous with information. You haven't earned trust to take your words at face value by any means in this conversation. All your points have been garbage and already broken down by other people, you don't care what other people think or want only what you want at the end of the day.
The fact your you said if someone else does it you should be able to do it is frankly stupid and childish. You aren't a hero, you aren't a developer, the devs can worry about things and you can play the game as it is intended.
Granted you have to much ego to get off your high horse.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
Ashes has a personal combat log. I see several people on the first page advocating for that.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
I think you don't know what I mean when I say 'someone will write a parser', but please continue to believe these sorts of things, as it makes dealing with you easier.
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
Position, not suggestion. I believe Noaani's position has been clarified. Suggestions often take more scrutiny.
Position:
"Combat Trackers that don't track other people unless they want to be tracked are good/okay."
Suggestion:
"Ashes should make their own combat tracker for people/guilds and have it be opt-in instead of the alternative."
If I do parse it, I will parse for position, not suggestion, because unless every person who posted had a chance to talk to Noaani specifically about the suggestion, there would be no way to know their opinion on the suggestion itself.
It makes me have an interesting perception though.
If I have a personal combat log that tells me all the data, and I write the parser for that, have I violated ToS because of writing and activating it?
At what point does my Excel Spreadsheet become bad?
Obviously for a programmer, drawing the line is hard. People say 'do it by pen and paper or by excel sheet', but to me, if you say 'you can use a calculator' and 'you can use Excel', I can program now, so I have a 'Combat Tracker'.
What is it exactly that people want from me, then? What is it that I am not supposed to do? Is it that I'm only allowed to use a Tracker if I program it myself? What if my team writes it together? Can we all use it then?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I guess I was conflating
Noaani: "There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed."
With
Azherae: "Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position."
The first page seems to be about 50/50. People who are fine with a personal combat log, but who do not want that info to be shown publicly vs people who want personal combat logs to be shown publicly to group or guild leaders...especilly if it's opt in.
And I don't see Noanni convincing people to change their opinions.
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
The funny thing about this is - you were all for the suggestion at one point. You even pointed a few things out that assisted in shaping someone the finer details of it.
It wasnt until Steven said he was against trackers that you decided tou were all of a sudden against the suggestion as well.
In fact, from memory, it was a comment you made that gave me the idea to add to the suggestion the limit trackers to working on those in your guild rather than giving players the option, as if the option is given to each player, group members will be required to share that data in order to join the group.
Switching that to guilds removed that issue that you pointed out.
Please no DPS meter. It breaks immersion in my opinion. If it is an optional personal thing it is fine I guess, but don't make other people able to see each other's dps/hps output, because it will take away focus from the game itself and make it a war of numbers which would be a shame.
Ceepex
I agree it shouldnt be something that people feel the need to have on screen at all during content. This is something I have always considered a misuse of combat trackers.
My question is, would it concern you at all if I had one that I could use with my guild, but if you and I were in a group (assuming you are not in my guild), I am unable to see anything you are doing?
Not at all. I would like that actually. I would use it while I play with my friends as well, I would just hate it if in a group with "randoms" everyone can see each others dps/hps and then everything becomes about who does or does not do enough dps/hps.
But then the problem is when one can activate/deactivate showing their stats to the group, the ones who refuse to do it will get kicked from partys you know? so I don't think there can be a middle ground so better not include it unless I am missing something.
Thanks for the reply.
Honestly, this is the reaction most reasonable people have to this suggestion - it just kind of works for everyone that isnt being purposefully unreasonable.
When reasonable people come across a reasonable compromise, they tend to accept it. It is only unreasonable people that refuse.
Likewise, when reasonable people are faced with a point in a debate that renders their view as obviously incorrect, they change their position to be that of the now obviously correct position.
Some people do not do this, however.
You could also look at the brief interaction I had with akabear at the end of the last page, and top of this page. While I didnt convince them that trackers were the best thing ever, I did point out for them that they are likely to be of more use in Ashes than they thought would be the case based on their experience.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
PAGE 1 - ROUGH COUNT
Whitedude31: personal combat log 0 | + 23 Likes
Damokles: Noanni 1 | + 7 Likes + 2 Likes +3 Likes
Wandering Mist: personal combat log 1 | + 38 Likes + 15 Likes + 15 Likes +2 Likes
Swaftworth: personal combat log 2 | + 26 Likes + 1 Like
Wololo: No combat log 1 | + 20 Likes
grisu: Noaani 2 | + 17 Likes +6 Likes + 4 Likes
Burnthefern: personal combat log 3 | +2 Likes + 1 Like
Azatoth: No combat log 2 | + 17 Likes +7 Likes
syl: No combat log 3 | + 9 Likes
StreetCornerPoet: No combat log 4 | +5 Likes
Insomnia: No combat log 0 | + 6 Likes
Magic Man: No combat log 5 | + 4 Likes
Shoklen: No combat log 0 | + 2 Likes
Roko: personal combat log 4 | + 4 Likes
14 unique posters
Count of 0 if the poster just goes with whatever the devs want but gives no personal opinion.
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Seems like people on the first page overwhelming agree with Wandering Mist and Steven's position: personal combat log only.
Next most popular position is no combat at all.
Noanni's position of having the group leader or guild leader see other people's combat log is in the minority - any way you slice it - as far as I can tell.
On Page 1
It's 10:30 PM. And I parsed this right after 3 dance classes, so... I'm sure there sre some minor errors here, but... overall...
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Keep in mind, the bulk of those ok with personal trackers are ok with guild based trackers. That is a very clear statement that the guild tracker suggestion has fairly widespread support.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
Not on the first page. On the first page, people OK with guild based trackers are the minority. Significantly so.
And, no... I have always been against DPS meters - especially visible to the group leader and guild leader.
Ever since playing NWO in 2013.
Personal combat tracker can be OK. Even though I probably wouldn't use it much, if ever.
My problem with DPS meters is that it's the only tool used to evaluate roles.
Thus there is too much focus on relying on that as the sole measure of performing well.
As a Stealth Rogue, I don't want my usefulness to be measured primarily by DPS.
I want my usefulness to be determined by how well I Stealth, Recon and Disarm Traps.
Character could be doing a wide variety of other beneficial tasks that result in low DPS.
If we're going to have DPS meters, I also want other types of meters - like a soak meter and/or aggro meter for Tanks. Etc.
--- Dygz on Page 3
What I originally said is if Ashes is going to have DPS Meters I want them to provide more info than just DPS. I want them to give more detailed info that can help assess why someone has a low DPS. What other things were they doing to aid the group besides DPS? Numbers don't tell the whole story.
The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason.
You seem to think I came in to this community at the same point in time as you - I've been here for 5 years now.
I mean, I put $500 on this game long before their stance on trackers was known.
It wasnt something I even considered looking in to before putting that money down - because literally no game has ever sustained a position against trackers, so why would this one?
After putting that money down, they decided to take up the position they have.
Since I am not obliged to agree with that position, nor to abide by it at all, I will not.
I have at times said that I would gladly take a refund of the money I have put in to the game, should Intrepid offer it.
"So why should this one"... because it's their right to do so?
I've put 300 into the game myself. I'm glad you supported it for the Early Alpha. I wasn't going to do the Play Testing because I do think it takes a certain type of player to go in and do the 'work' kind of play, and what they didn't need was a bunch of people being casual in that process (which they would have got if they just opened it to everyone).
Again, they are not trying to be like the Current MMOs. The entire reason Ashes is being created is Steven's feeling (that many of us here share) that the current state of MMOs sucks. We don't want what 'many MMOs' have to offer, we want something different.
One of those differences is the idea of No Trackers. All I'm saying is give Intrepid the opportunity. How hard is it to just simply try it, without Trackers? To respect the intent.
Again, if you want Trackers... plenty of games that offer them. THAT is the issue here. I absolutely take issue with those that actively go against the intent of the Developer, because you have valid options to go play. This is meant to be different, and we should give it the chance to be what it's trying to be.
But hey, if it's as simple as "If they give me my money back, I'll go play something else" I hope that happens. Because I think your stance is about as selfish and toxic as one could possibly be. I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here. And you openly say that's exactly what you are going to do. If it's a deal breaker, don't agree to the deal, don't sign the ToS, go play something that supports your idea.
"So why should this one"... because it's their right to do so?
I think you missed the point of what I was saying.
That early on in the games development, there was no point in checking up on literally every detail they planned on having in the game - so why would anyone ask them that early about their stance on combat trackers?
This is especially true when you consider that literally every MMO in existence (and every MUD in existence) had some form of tracker - so of course Ashes will as well.
The above becomes even MORE true still when you factor in some of the staff that were at Intrepid early on, many of whom are even more pro-tracker than I am.
Lastly, asking about trackers becomes a fairly stupid question when you factor in the notion that they can't actually stop their use.
This is the context behind "why wouldn't this game" - there was literally no reason to ask the question before backing, because not being at least ambivalent on the matter doesn't make any sense.
The entire reason Ashes is being created is Steven's feeling (that many of us here share) that the current state of MMOs sucks. We don't want what 'many MMOs' have to offer, we want something different.
One of those differences is the idea of No Trackers.
Yeah, I remember them wearing red "Make MMO's Great Again" hats.
The thing is, they never said anything about combat trackers being a thing they were concerned with. Add this to me having the knowledge that literally all MMO's at some point had a tracker, and it makes no sense.
If you are saying you want to make MMO's great again, that means you have a point in time when you think MMO's were great, and you want to make your game like they were back then. The thing is, that time - literally any time in MMO history - trackers existed.
As such, not having trackers is literally going against the "Make MMO's Great Again" ideal that Intrepid had (I use past tense here on purpose) for Ashes.
I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here.
As I have said, I have no doubt at all that I will be able to abide by any ToS that is legally binding. If Intrepid can't write a legally binding ToS to suit their position, they should probably adjust that position to match the ToS they are able to write. Keep in mind, a ToS is supposed to be a legal document, and as such needs to be precise and unambiguous. A comma in the wrong place can alter the meaning of a clause (look it up). There is no scope for 'spirit' with a legal document, it is black and white with the things it allows for and doesn't allow for - and as I said, it can't prevent me doing anything that isn't interacting with the client software.
As to community guidelines, since Ashes is a game where players can literally kill each other, take their stuff, then attack and destroy their hometown, the game is going to be absolutely filled to the brim with toxicity. It will make WoW's community look tame in comparison - and that is all without combat trackers.
Trying to put in place community guidelines that allow for that, but that then also claims that someone pointing out that your DPS is a bit low is a level of toxicity that the community simply wont stand for - that is just not possible.
You're allowed to not like this position, but what you can't do is say that the position is wrong. My position here is literally exactly the same as about 25% of the FFXIV population (best I can tell), where the developer has said in a similar manner to Steven here that they do not want combat trackers, but since they can't stop them and players want to use them, players do indeed just use them, to hell with what the developer "wants".
As I've said many times though, FFXIV is proof positive that what Intrepid are doing is to the detriment of players like yourself. If Intrepid maintain their current position, the game will literally end up with the same combat tracker paradigm that FFXIV has. Again, you may not like that, and you may think that everyone using them gets banned, but what you think doesn't actually matter - just as what Steven thinks doesn't actually matter.
Can DPS meter be an avenue for gatekeeping/toxic behaviour.. yea, obviously - but I wager that anything that creates struggle and competition will do so as well. I don't think it's a catalyst for a dysfunctional culture within the game. It's a tool, in the same vein as money is a tool.. you won't remove the greediness of people, just by removing money, it will just come into fruition in a different way.
A DPS meter won't be necessary if the difficulty and challenge aren't that big of a deal, but if you've people competing on various level whereas only lets say 1% are able to clear, I do think it's necessary if you want to push the ceiling of player skills. I can't remember the mmo on the top of my head (I heard it years ago), but the anecdote goes, that a bloke played an mmo back in the day, with no inherent dps meter and creating it as a mod was restricted. Some people found a workaround anyway and they made an improvised dps/healing meter, which only the top end guilds used. He thought he was decent at the game, but when he got acquainted with the program his output increased by more than 60%
It's an invaluable tool to discern what goes on around you, and how to improve yourself. Without it, you're blindsided. It seems to me, that Ashes of Creation will have multiple ways to play the game. It doesn't seem like AoC put all it's content in one basket, like raiding, and call it a day, and I'm sure, that there will be a home for everyone looking for it across all kinds of endeavors and levels and thereby, I believe, that the downsides of a DPS meter is inherently mitigated.
On a personal level, I don't know if I'm gonna compete in anything so far, I think I'm gonna mainly be a Merchant of some sort.. but I would still like to experiment and practice my skills, so I can be the best that I can be for my class, and I need some sort of feedback and data to provide me with the evidence instead of relying on ambiguity.
It's not fun gathering 40 guildies and you can't progress, because you ain't provided with any feedback or data, and the accomplishment aint that fulfilled by pure obscurity... yay we killed a dragon.. how did we do it? .. I don't know, but we did it... it's vague, it's meh... imo. a couple of times is fine, but personally I want to improve as a player and I want to as best as possible. Maybe my role only allows me to be at 20th on the dps because I need to support in a different way.. but a voice inside of me, will always try to goat me into, both doing my objective, but also see if I can punch up to 19-18th. And that's a huge part of the fun for me in an mmo.
I don't think a DPS meter would have a devastating effect to the game at all, I actually think it'll have less downsides than most, due to how diversified the game seems to be.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But hey, if it's as simple as "If they give me my money back, I'll go play something else" I hope that happens. Because I think your stance is about as selfish and toxic as one could possibly be. I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here. And you openly say that's exactly what you are going to do. If it's a deal breaker, don't agree to the deal, don't sign the ToS, go play something that supports your idea.
Yes. Again. "No DPS Meters" is not a law. It's not taking away anyone's civil rights.
"No DPS meters" is a game rule. Cheating in a game by playing against the rules is not going to land anyone in jail. Cheaters will not have to pay a fine to the government or to IS. Cheaters might get banned from playing the game.
Just because you don't like a game rule does not mean the rule is "wrong". It just means you don't like that rule.
You can cheat if you want to. You can risk getting banned if you want to. Sure.
It's not against the law to cheat in an MMORPG.
Can DPS meter be an avenue for gatekeeping/toxic behaviour.. yea, obviously - but I wager that anything that creates struggle and competition will do so as well. I don't think it's a catalyst for a dysfunctional culture within the game. It's a tool, in the same vein as money is a tool.. you won't remove the greediness of people, just by removing money, it will just come into fruition in a different way.
A DPS meter won't be necessary if the difficulty and challenge aren't that big of a deal, but if you've people competing on various level whereas only lets say 1% are able to clear, I do think it's necessary if you want to push the ceiling of player skills. I can't remember the mmo on the top of my head (I heard it years ago), but the anecdote goes, that a bloke played an mmo back in the day, with no inherent dps meter and creating it as a mod was restricted. Some people found a workaround anyway and they made an improvised dps/healing meter, which only the top end guilds used. He thought he was decent at the game, but when he got acquainted with the program his output increased by more than 60%
It's an invaluable tool to discern what goes on around you, and how to improve yourself. Without it, you're blindsided. It seems to me, that Ashes of Creation will have multiple ways to play the game. It doesn't seem like AoC put all it's content in one basket, like raiding, and call it a day, and I'm sure, that there will be a home for everyone looking for it across all kinds of endeavors and levels and thereby, I believe, that the downsides of a DPS meter is inherently mitigated.
On a personal level, I don't know if I'm gonna compete in anything so far, I think I'm gonna mainly be a Merchant of some sort.. but I would still like to experiment and practice my skills, so I can be the best that I can be for my class, and I need some sort of feedback and data to provide me with the evidence instead of relying on ambiguity.
It's not fun gathering 40 guildies and you can't progress, because you ain't provided with any feedback or data, and the accomplishment aint that fulfilled by pure obscurity... yay we killed a dragon.. how did we do it? .. I don't know, but we did it... it's vague, it's meh... imo. a couple of times is fine, but personally I want to improve as a player and I want to as best as possible. Maybe my role only allows me to be at 20th on the dps because I need to support in a different way.. but a voice inside of me, will always try to goat me into, both doing my objective, but also see if I can punch up to 19-18th. And that's a huge part of the fun for me in an mmo.
I don't think a DPS meter would have a devastating effect to the game at all, I actually think it'll have less downsides than most, due to how diversified the game seems to be.
You killed the dragon by doing dps using your skills, figuring out the mechanics and know what to do at what times based on experience fighting it. There is no reason for you not to know how something dies or its simply too easy to worry about how it died. Also there is no reason why you can't progress in content, if you are wiping to the boss abilities figure out the mechanics and strategies, use the combat log to help you with some information if that is needed if you are unable to feel it out. A argument saying i can't figure it out is not a reason for including dps meters into the game, nor is saying you don't know how you killed the dragon when you clearly should have an idea having killed it and gained more experience.
use the combat log to help you with some information if that is needed if you are unable to feel it out.
How do you want to read this combat log after a wipe on a dragon that generated over 10 000 lines?
Do you use some filter? If so then that filter is basically the same thing as DPS meter - but it filters your custom input instead of only dps - so why not have that as a guild perk and have intrepid in power over who can filter this data? otherwise ppl will use 3rd party software and Intrepid will be kinda forced to a same position as ffxiv devs to enforce "dont talk about it or you're banned"
use the combat log to help you with some information if that is needed if you are unable to feel it out.
How do you want to read this combat log after a wipe on a dragon that generated over 10 000 lines?
Do you use some filter? If so then that filter is basically the same thing as DPS meter - but it filters your custom input instead of only dps - so why not have that as a guild perk and have intrepid in power over who can filter this data? otherwise ppl will use 3rd party software and Intrepid will be kinda forced to a same position as ffxiv devs to enforce "dont talk about it or you're banned"
You aren't going to read 10,000 lines there isn't a need to it is a pointless argument that makes 0 sense in people trying to use a pointless scenario of all actions as a point for DPS meters when it really isn't. It is akin to saying life is too complicated and counting every action down to the exact detail you have to do throughout the day to function.
If you wipe you find out why you died, was it to a mechanic, was it to something the boss did skill wise. You break things down and communicate with your guild / group and figure it out piece by piece and hear peoples suggestions. The more times you run it the more you understand and can share with your group and figure out a stronger strategy to being able to beat the boss. I understand people have been babied for so long in games and don't want to think or communicate as a group and want one person to tell them what to do so they can be brain dead and not social.
People can use hacks or try to do add-ons and other sorts of things and ignore consequences for as long as they can get away from it. People will try to multibox on the same computer with multiple clients running. Just because people can do things and ignore rules or TOS doesn't mean its ok to do. If there are rules set it will need to be enforced strictly to send a clear message. If people can hide it they will as with all things, and when they get caught they can't complain when they just lost their major account..
Comments
holy shit you are a special one. Comparing combat assist addon with a combat log tracker
You misunderstand the topic, you argue without facts - just subjective "feels" and then you are insulting others for being "brain dead"?
Were you abused as a child? Or is there a different trauma for you to be this disconnected from reality?
― Plato
You are literately a issue, you are going to be loud now and quiet later on if you realize you can get banned for it.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
in that case a fast google search spits out this:
"Legality. Phone hacking, being a form of surveillance, is illegal in many countries unless it is carried out as lawful interception by a government agency"
― Plato
I don't believe you, you have already stated you will go against the TOS and clearly will lie later on when you are using trackers. You aren't a honest person you are trying to say whatever you can to involve tracks, etc.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
― Plato
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
You aren't making valid points, and lying or skewing context of what happens to convince yourself it isn't toxic isn't going to work.
We all know you will do whatever means possible and that includes being disingenuous with information. You haven't earned trust to take your words at face value by any means in this conversation. All your points have been garbage and already broken down by other people, you don't care what other people think or want only what you want at the end of the day.
The fact your you said if someone else does it you should be able to do it is frankly stupid and childish. You aren't a hero, you aren't a developer, the devs can worry about things and you can play the game as it is intended.
Granted you have to much ego to get off your high horse.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
I think you don't know what I mean when I say 'someone will write a parser', but please continue to believe these sorts of things, as it makes dealing with you easier.
Position, not suggestion. I believe Noaani's position has been clarified. Suggestions often take more scrutiny.
Position:
"Combat Trackers that don't track other people unless they want to be tracked are good/okay."
Suggestion:
"Ashes should make their own combat tracker for people/guilds and have it be opt-in instead of the alternative."
If I do parse it, I will parse for position, not suggestion, because unless every person who posted had a chance to talk to Noaani specifically about the suggestion, there would be no way to know their opinion on the suggestion itself.
It makes me have an interesting perception though.
If I have a personal combat log that tells me all the data, and I write the parser for that, have I violated ToS because of writing and activating it?
At what point does my Excel Spreadsheet become bad?
Obviously for a programmer, drawing the line is hard. People say 'do it by pen and paper or by excel sheet', but to me, if you say 'you can use a calculator' and 'you can use Excel', I can program now, so I have a 'Combat Tracker'.
What is it exactly that people want from me, then? What is it that I am not supposed to do? Is it that I'm only allowed to use a Tracker if I program it myself? What if my team writes it together? Can we all use it then?
Noaani: "There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed."
With
Azherae: "Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position."
The first page seems to be about 50/50. People who are fine with a personal combat log, but who do not want that info to be shown publicly vs people who want personal combat logs to be shown publicly to group or guild leaders...especilly if it's opt in.
And I don't see Noanni convincing people to change their opinions.
The funny thing about this is - you were all for the suggestion at one point. You even pointed a few things out that assisted in shaping someone the finer details of it.
It wasnt until Steven said he was against trackers that you decided tou were all of a sudden against the suggestion as well.
In fact, from memory, it was a comment you made that gave me the idea to add to the suggestion the limit trackers to working on those in your guild rather than giving players the option, as if the option is given to each player, group members will be required to share that data in order to join the group.
Switching that to guilds removed that issue that you pointed out.
I'll quote the final of four posts in the discussion I had with Ceepex so you can see for yourself.
When reasonable people come across a reasonable compromise, they tend to accept it. It is only unreasonable people that refuse.
Likewise, when reasonable people are faced with a point in a debate that renders their view as obviously incorrect, they change their position to be that of the now obviously correct position.
Some people do not do this, however.
You could also look at the brief interaction I had with akabear at the end of the last page, and top of this page. While I didnt convince them that trackers were the best thing ever, I did point out for them that they are likely to be of more use in Ashes than they thought would be the case based on their experience.
Whitedude31: personal combat log 0 | + 23 Likes
Damokles: Noanni 1 | + 7 Likes + 2 Likes +3 Likes
Wandering Mist: personal combat log 1 | + 38 Likes + 15 Likes + 15 Likes +2 Likes
Swaftworth: personal combat log 2 | + 26 Likes + 1 Like
Wololo: No combat log 1 | + 20 Likes
grisu: Noaani 2 | + 17 Likes +6 Likes + 4 Likes
Burnthefern: personal combat log 3 | +2 Likes + 1 Like
Azatoth: No combat log 2 | + 17 Likes +7 Likes
syl: No combat log 3 | + 9 Likes
StreetCornerPoet: No combat log 4 | +5 Likes
Insomnia: No combat log 0 | + 6 Likes
Magic Man: No combat log 5 | + 4 Likes
Shoklen: No combat log 0 | + 2 Likes
Roko: personal combat log 4 | + 4 Likes
14 unique posters
Count of 0 if the poster just goes with whatever the devs want but gives no personal opinion.
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Seems like people on the first page overwhelming agree with Wandering Mist and Steven's position: personal combat log only.
Next most popular position is no combat at all.
Noanni's position of having the group leader or guild leader see other people's combat log is in the minority - any way you slice it - as far as I can tell.
On Page 1
It's 10:30 PM. And I parsed this right after 3 dance classes, so... I'm sure there sre some minor errors here, but... overall...
Keep in mind, the bulk of those ok with personal trackers are ok with guild based trackers. That is a very clear statement that the guild tracker suggestion has fairly widespread support.
And, no... I have always been against DPS meters - especially visible to the group leader and guild leader.
Ever since playing NWO in 2013.
Personal combat tracker can be OK. Even though I probably wouldn't use it much, if ever.
--- Dygz on Page 3
What I originally said is if Ashes is going to have DPS Meters I want them to provide more info than just DPS. I want them to give more detailed info that can help assess why someone has a low DPS. What other things were they doing to aid the group besides DPS? Numbers don't tell the whole story.
"So why should this one"... because it's their right to do so?
I've put 300 into the game myself. I'm glad you supported it for the Early Alpha. I wasn't going to do the Play Testing because I do think it takes a certain type of player to go in and do the 'work' kind of play, and what they didn't need was a bunch of people being casual in that process (which they would have got if they just opened it to everyone).
Again, they are not trying to be like the Current MMOs. The entire reason Ashes is being created is Steven's feeling (that many of us here share) that the current state of MMOs sucks. We don't want what 'many MMOs' have to offer, we want something different.
One of those differences is the idea of No Trackers. All I'm saying is give Intrepid the opportunity. How hard is it to just simply try it, without Trackers? To respect the intent.
Again, if you want Trackers... plenty of games that offer them. THAT is the issue here. I absolutely take issue with those that actively go against the intent of the Developer, because you have valid options to go play. This is meant to be different, and we should give it the chance to be what it's trying to be.
But hey, if it's as simple as "If they give me my money back, I'll go play something else" I hope that happens. Because I think your stance is about as selfish and toxic as one could possibly be. I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here. And you openly say that's exactly what you are going to do. If it's a deal breaker, don't agree to the deal, don't sign the ToS, go play something that supports your idea.
I mean, this is true, but only really because the actual detailed suggestion of guild based trackers didnt happen for another dozen or so pages.
The discussion of trackers in relation to guilds that took place on page one was under a VERY different paradigm.
That early on in the games development, there was no point in checking up on literally every detail they planned on having in the game - so why would anyone ask them that early about their stance on combat trackers?
This is especially true when you consider that literally every MMO in existence (and every MUD in existence) had some form of tracker - so of course Ashes will as well.
The above becomes even MORE true still when you factor in some of the staff that were at Intrepid early on, many of whom are even more pro-tracker than I am.
Lastly, asking about trackers becomes a fairly stupid question when you factor in the notion that they can't actually stop their use.
This is the context behind "why wouldn't this game" - there was literally no reason to ask the question before backing, because not being at least ambivalent on the matter doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, I remember them wearing red "Make MMO's Great Again" hats.
The thing is, they never said anything about combat trackers being a thing they were concerned with. Add this to me having the knowledge that literally all MMO's at some point had a tracker, and it makes no sense.
If you are saying you want to make MMO's great again, that means you have a point in time when you think MMO's were great, and you want to make your game like they were back then. The thing is, that time - literally any time in MMO history - trackers existed.
As such, not having trackers is literally going against the "Make MMO's Great Again" ideal that Intrepid had (I use past tense here on purpose) for Ashes. As I have said, I have no doubt at all that I will be able to abide by any ToS that is legally binding. If Intrepid can't write a legally binding ToS to suit their position, they should probably adjust that position to match the ToS they are able to write. Keep in mind, a ToS is supposed to be a legal document, and as such needs to be precise and unambiguous. A comma in the wrong place can alter the meaning of a clause (look it up). There is no scope for 'spirit' with a legal document, it is black and white with the things it allows for and doesn't allow for - and as I said, it can't prevent me doing anything that isn't interacting with the client software.
As to community guidelines, since Ashes is a game where players can literally kill each other, take their stuff, then attack and destroy their hometown, the game is going to be absolutely filled to the brim with toxicity. It will make WoW's community look tame in comparison - and that is all without combat trackers.
Trying to put in place community guidelines that allow for that, but that then also claims that someone pointing out that your DPS is a bit low is a level of toxicity that the community simply wont stand for - that is just not possible.
You're allowed to not like this position, but what you can't do is say that the position is wrong. My position here is literally exactly the same as about 25% of the FFXIV population (best I can tell), where the developer has said in a similar manner to Steven here that they do not want combat trackers, but since they can't stop them and players want to use them, players do indeed just use them, to hell with what the developer "wants".
As I've said many times though, FFXIV is proof positive that what Intrepid are doing is to the detriment of players like yourself. If Intrepid maintain their current position, the game will literally end up with the same combat tracker paradigm that FFXIV has. Again, you may not like that, and you may think that everyone using them gets banned, but what you think doesn't actually matter - just as what Steven thinks doesn't actually matter.
What matters is what can be done.
A DPS meter won't be necessary if the difficulty and challenge aren't that big of a deal, but if you've people competing on various level whereas only lets say 1% are able to clear, I do think it's necessary if you want to push the ceiling of player skills. I can't remember the mmo on the top of my head (I heard it years ago), but the anecdote goes, that a bloke played an mmo back in the day, with no inherent dps meter and creating it as a mod was restricted. Some people found a workaround anyway and they made an improvised dps/healing meter, which only the top end guilds used. He thought he was decent at the game, but when he got acquainted with the program his output increased by more than 60%
It's an invaluable tool to discern what goes on around you, and how to improve yourself. Without it, you're blindsided. It seems to me, that Ashes of Creation will have multiple ways to play the game. It doesn't seem like AoC put all it's content in one basket, like raiding, and call it a day, and I'm sure, that there will be a home for everyone looking for it across all kinds of endeavors and levels and thereby, I believe, that the downsides of a DPS meter is inherently mitigated.
On a personal level, I don't know if I'm gonna compete in anything so far, I think I'm gonna mainly be a Merchant of some sort.. but I would still like to experiment and practice my skills, so I can be the best that I can be for my class, and I need some sort of feedback and data to provide me with the evidence instead of relying on ambiguity.
It's not fun gathering 40 guildies and you can't progress, because you ain't provided with any feedback or data, and the accomplishment aint that fulfilled by pure obscurity... yay we killed a dragon.. how did we do it? .. I don't know, but we did it... it's vague, it's meh... imo. a couple of times is fine, but personally I want to improve as a player and I want to as best as possible. Maybe my role only allows me to be at 20th on the dps because I need to support in a different way.. but a voice inside of me, will always try to goat me into, both doing my objective, but also see if I can punch up to 19-18th. And that's a huge part of the fun for me in an mmo.
I don't think a DPS meter would have a devastating effect to the game at all, I actually think it'll have less downsides than most, due to how diversified the game seems to be.
"No DPS meters" is a game rule. Cheating in a game by playing against the rules is not going to land anyone in jail. Cheaters will not have to pay a fine to the government or to IS. Cheaters might get banned from playing the game.
Just because you don't like a game rule does not mean the rule is "wrong". It just means you don't like that rule.
You can cheat if you want to. You can risk getting banned if you want to. Sure.
It's not against the law to cheat in an MMORPG.
You killed the dragon by doing dps using your skills, figuring out the mechanics and know what to do at what times based on experience fighting it. There is no reason for you not to know how something dies or its simply too easy to worry about how it died. Also there is no reason why you can't progress in content, if you are wiping to the boss abilities figure out the mechanics and strategies, use the combat log to help you with some information if that is needed if you are unable to feel it out. A argument saying i can't figure it out is not a reason for including dps meters into the game, nor is saying you don't know how you killed the dragon when you clearly should have an idea having killed it and gained more experience.
How do you want to read this combat log after a wipe on a dragon that generated over 10 000 lines?
Do you use some filter? If so then that filter is basically the same thing as DPS meter - but it filters your custom input instead of only dps - so why not have that as a guild perk and have intrepid in power over who can filter this data? otherwise ppl will use 3rd party software and Intrepid will be kinda forced to a same position as ffxiv devs to enforce "dont talk about it or you're banned"
― Plato
You aren't going to read 10,000 lines there isn't a need to it is a pointless argument that makes 0 sense in people trying to use a pointless scenario of all actions as a point for DPS meters when it really isn't. It is akin to saying life is too complicated and counting every action down to the exact detail you have to do throughout the day to function.
If you wipe you find out why you died, was it to a mechanic, was it to something the boss did skill wise. You break things down and communicate with your guild / group and figure it out piece by piece and hear peoples suggestions. The more times you run it the more you understand and can share with your group and figure out a stronger strategy to being able to beat the boss. I understand people have been babied for so long in games and don't want to think or communicate as a group and want one person to tell them what to do so they can be brain dead and not social.
People can use hacks or try to do add-ons and other sorts of things and ignore consequences for as long as they can get away from it. People will try to multibox on the same computer with multiple clients running. Just because people can do things and ignore rules or TOS doesn't mean its ok to do. If there are rules set it will need to be enforced strictly to send a clear message. If people can hide it they will as with all things, and when they get caught they can't complain when they just lost their major account..