akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah, I hope the time to kill is as you said as one shot kills should never be in a game.
I recall a fight in L2 that went a good 15-20min, until buffs died, as the tank I was trying to kill with a ranger just would not die and the tank could just not deal enough damage nor get close. Even took off my armor just to tease..!
Some of the fights that were most memorable went on a good 5-10min.
I also hope terrain has a play, height, cover, concealment and range.
I hope we have ability to pick up sticks or arrows, and arrange little camp fires on dead bodies, just to rub it in!
I like the concept the game Lost Ark has. Not allowing dps meters but in the end of the dungeon showing the biggest contributers to the dungeon. I would suggest having something like "most damage done ", "most healing done" and maybe "most damage mitigated".
Funny that you don't even know that every player has access to a special room (trixion) where you have fully built in dps meter with many configuratable settings and build options to test
Not to say you are completely ignorant of the theorycrafting discords that disect the best way to play current classes and create meta guides for it where people make decisions on super minute things that can boost your output two-fold
Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.
I mean, this makes no sense.
Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.
There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.
While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.
I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.
I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.
Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant
Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).
They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.
It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.
When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.
Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).
Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.
For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.
The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.
So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?
At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.
Less than a dozen peoples shows exactly why you were stuck in your own arguments and bias and aren't paying attention to what people think or want. Again you need to go reread things and understand that almost everyone is against what you are wanting.
My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?
I don't care about rules like i don't care about my town rules/law if they reduce the harmony in the neighborhood.
I prefer doing things that make the neighborhood happy, and that the neighborhood think is good.
As i said, because you seems to love a lot the neighborhood metaphor, i saw the lawfull side being bad, and the don't care side being good. And gave two obvious example of this. (Mayor and police knows i use firewood for my bbq and not coal... but everyone plays to be blind)
My question i ask myself is always "does my decision is a danger for other people, or does it harm them" . Excessiv application of laws/rules can be harmfull... And here we go on FFXIV... Where combat tracker are openly forbidden as stated by Naoki Yoshida, and we still have a whole website, full of datas of millions fight across the world, including datas of people that DOESN'T WANT to be recorded.
FFXIV is showing what kind of things will happens to AOC : both game are forbidding combat tracker with a ban hammer as sanction. So just lets watch what the old one is doing ?
The simple fact some people that doesn't want to be recorded are recorded and have their stat published is for me a problem. a real one. And the solution is not getting the site down (it won't stop at all this problem). The solution is having a tool usefull enough for people using it, while protecting people who don't want to be recorded...
This is what a good neigborhood is : a place where each neighbor doesn't harm the other comfort, not by following the town's rules, but with decision that makes everyone happy.
To finish a thing i love about @Mag7spy it is how he is full of bias, and decide what community wants, which most people in this topic never pretended (be it on one side or other)...
Let's be honest : you know nothing about what a community is. so before saying "the community says" try to learn what a community is.
It is not a nearly uniform mass, with a global mindset. no, it is lot of different mindset, different hope, different way to play the game that gather the whole community. A community is a patchwork... And sticking about the mindset of only one color of this big patchwork is not how you get a good and harmonious neighborhood...
I didn't decide go reread the thread and understand people rather than trying to argue people. You literally are blind to the amount of people that are against the garbage you want, even more so in the case where you can view other players.
You are in the extreme minority NO ONE is backing you except a small handful of people and elitist. EVERYONE else is against this garbage get it through your head instead of sticking to YOUR BIAS. Stop trying to force your bs on a community that doesn't want it, go play WoW.
For starters, stop quoting a page long post and then have your reply towards a different one (this time it's mine) - you're just spamming this thread so it becomes less readable than it currently is
It is so clear that you are trying to get us into a deadlock where we both shout at each other that the other one is in echochamber.
What I can do is to point you toward download counts for xxiv/eq2 meters (i know the meter is used towards other games as well, but 2.7mil downloads is quite a lot). Then go and find lost ark discords and watch some class discords - you get daily people posting there what they were trying to find out in the lost ark dps meter room.
All you are doing is saying that you don't approve the playstyle of these people, so they have to abandon it or they will be banned from this game
A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you.
so... a tool that do measures is a tool saying you what to do...
.
In my work i have 2 kind of tools, one that gather metrics, and one that assist me.
The first are tools you are probably using in your own life often, and some few specialised. But one example is... a ruler
The seconds are software where i take informations i gathered and gave me all results... No more work to do. (aside using my own experience to see if results are dubious, due to bugs, or bad inputs)
This is the difference between a combat tracker (gathering data easy to read) and combat assistant (says you all information you want without puting any effort in it)
The first just show me raw numbers i can work on. and from those raw numbers, i can have lot of answers.
The seconds gives me all answers... (And i know some people doing the same work, so accustomed of those assisting tool not able anymore to do the work themselves... which is a problem sometime)
And you are using second as arguments against first.
Combat tracker is just a .xls it doesn't gives any final information, it is still raw numbers you have to work on to get your answers.
If you want your reasonning true, you also have to fight against combat log... because they also assist us about understanding how the game works, how the class work, what are the best skills of the class, etc etc... The combat tracker is just an organised view of all things already written in combat log.
And when you say "we come on ashes to flee other mmorpg" : true
People come here to find back some elements of the old design, back in 2005 and even before
In old good time... when people ALREADY used combat tracker... EQ, my first mmorpg, i went i a guild that used it (not mandatory to have it ourselves but officer used it a lot) WoW was not released yet...
Steven speaks about creating a game with what they were back in those time, in this golden age ? Fine... there was combat tracker.
Oh and a last point about "respecting tos" : on FFXIV tools like reshade are forbidden. while i don't care, all my friends, and nearly all of their various FC are using it. it even made a drama when a player which modded her game and share a little too much about it on twitter was banned... for modding, while it was already done A LOT... people tried to make her unban, while modding is totally against the TOS (so it was totally rightfull for SE to ban her, and unrightfull for people to defend her... ) So all those people (probably large majority of FFXIV) that does those things, against the tos, are all bad neighbors ? ...
If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc).
This is the problem about the debate around tracker
People put all fault on it, but refuse to see the real problem is how easy it is to exclude people...
Remove combat tracker in any form in wow, this will change nearly nothing, people will remain toxic, will kick people they think are making their dungeon run harder. and will find always new way to discriminate, and mostly... even more dumb way...
I mean, just look at wow or FFXIV party finder... lot of parties just ask insane ilvl, or the proof of kill the second week (wow) or second day (FFXIV) of the content... And then, if a people is a problem, it is kick because will find another dude in less than one minute...
Now get in a game where replacing a dude takes 20 or more minutes (because you have to go back in town, do the call, recruit, then run back to dungeon)... don't worry people will keep with them the bad guy (be it because he takes all AOE, break cc or have bad damages) and try to finish dungeon with him...
In FFXIV i even saw votekick against tank or healer because they refuse to do the door to door pulls... No combat tracker there, just because the tank want to play chill pack after pack, i saw people doing votekick ! More often than votekick against people that try to force the mass pull which is, for me ... a good reason to kick a healer/DPS...
in 15 years of mmorpg, always people were kicked because other thinks it would lead to a faster clean of the content to replace him. But if replacement is long to do, don't worry people will stop kicking for any small problem.
When even with duty finder, there were long time to find a tank... people still played the dungeon with the really bad tank. Because while with tank the dungeon went form a 20 minutes to 30 minutes run, kicking him was easily getting to a 40 minutes run due to the loooong time to get a new one.
This is why dutyfinder is one of the worst thing ever in MMORPG... this is why cross server is another one of the worst thing in mmorpg. This is one of reasons family teleportation will be a problem in AOC if it exist.
Find the real ennemy of what you want. here is not the data, but the easy replacement of people.
LMFAO Stop lying you don't do the work, the software does the damn work for you. All you do is hit your skills until the best option is shown there is no actual effort put in you are literarily being brain dead. The tool is there to watch people more than anything, and make things extreme easy at doing so.
Use the combat log if you think its the same thing and you will have 0 issue against what the community wants
The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason.
You seem to think I came in to this community at the same point in time as you - I've been here for 5 years now.
I mean, I put $500 on this game long before their stance on trackers was known.
It wasnt something I even considered looking in to before putting that money down - because literally no game has ever sustained a position against trackers, so why would this one?
After putting that money down, they decided to take up the position they have.
Since I am not obliged to agree with that position, nor to abide by it at all, I will not.
I have at times said that I would gladly take a refund of the money I have put in to the game, should Intrepid offer it.
You are literately a issue, you are going to be loud now and quiet later on if you realize you can get banned for it.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
What would they ban him for? For finding out he used a tracker on his phone that has no intrepid app installed?
in that case a fast google search spits out this:
"Legality. Phone hacking, being a form of surveillance, is illegal in many countries unless it is carried out as lawful interception by a government agency"
Does the presence of those tools increase the propensity and likelihood of a negative social interaction taking place? Yes.
I disagree with this statement.
I have had far more positive interactions because of trackers (literally hundreds) than I have had negative interactions because of trackers (literally zero).
While I get that some people would have had negative interactions because of them, there are - from what I can see - far more people that are taking other negative experiences and blaming them on trackers.
If you are in a group running content in WoW, and you are obviously slower than the rest of the group, the group is going to replace you. This isnt the fault of trackers, it is the fault of the LFG system (and the fault of the player for not being fast enough - they are as much to blame as anyone here).
Remove trackers and the group can still see you are slower and so will replace you. Remove the LFG system and the group is unlikely to replace you because getting a replacement to them is going to be difficult.
How can we then point to the tracker and say it is at fault?
You may be right about Ashes not having world firsts, but you also may not be. I would suspect that there will be a singular boss that is the apex of the game, and would also expect to see one for each expansion. If not a specific boss, then a specific quest chain or some such.
Server firsts though, they will absolutely be a thing.
I will say, based on the above post, you have decided to drop the argument that was being made about combat trackers being bad because they will lead to combat assistants. This is a good decision.
I don't believe you, you have already stated you will go against the TOS and clearly will lie later on when you are using trackers. You aren't a honest person you are trying to say whatever you can to involve tracks, etc.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
You aren't making valid points, and lying or skewing context of what happens to convince yourself it isn't toxic isn't going to work.
We all know you will do whatever means possible and that includes being disingenuous with information. You haven't earned trust to take your words at face value by any means in this conversation. All your points have been garbage and already broken down by other people, you don't care what other people think or want only what you want at the end of the day.
The fact your you said if someone else does it you should be able to do it is frankly stupid and childish. You aren't a hero, you aren't a developer, the devs can worry about things and you can play the game as it is intended.
Granted you have to much ego to get off your high horse.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
Ashes has a personal combat log. I see several people on the first page advocating for that.
2
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
I think you don't know what I mean when I say 'someone will write a parser', but please continue to believe these sorts of things, as it makes dealing with you easier.
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
Position, not suggestion. I believe Noaani's position has been clarified. Suggestions often take more scrutiny.
Position:
"Combat Trackers that don't track other people unless they want to be tracked are good/okay."
Suggestion:
"Ashes should make their own combat tracker for people/guilds and have it be opt-in instead of the alternative."
If I do parse it, I will parse for position, not suggestion, because unless every person who posted had a chance to talk to Noaani specifically about the suggestion, there would be no way to know their opinion on the suggestion itself.
It makes me have an interesting perception though.
If I have a personal combat log that tells me all the data, and I write the parser for that, have I violated ToS because of writing and activating it?
At what point does my Excel Spreadsheet become bad?
Obviously for a programmer, drawing the line is hard. People say 'do it by pen and paper or by excel sheet', but to me, if you say 'you can use a calculator' and 'you can use Excel', I can program now, so I have a 'Combat Tracker'.
What is it exactly that people want from me, then? What is it that I am not supposed to do? Is it that I'm only allowed to use a Tracker if I program it myself? What if my team writes it together? Can we all use it then?
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I guess I was conflating
Noaani: "There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed."
With
Azherae: "Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position."
The first page seems to be about 50/50. People who are fine with a personal combat log, but who do not want that info to be shown publicly vs people who want personal combat logs to be shown publicly to group or guild leaders...especilly if it's opt in.
And I don't see Noanni convincing people to change their opinions.
The first page does not favor Noaani's suggestion. The first page posters who only want personal combat logs may change their minds after hearing Noaani's suggestion... I doubt many do, but... I don't care enough to parse any numbers.
The funny thing about this is - you were all for the suggestion at one point. You even pointed a few things out that assisted in shaping someone the finer details of it.
It wasnt until Steven said he was against trackers that you decided tou were all of a sudden against the suggestion as well.
In fact, from memory, it was a comment you made that gave me the idea to add to the suggestion the limit trackers to working on those in your guild rather than giving players the option, as if the option is given to each player, group members will be required to share that data in order to join the group.
Switching that to guilds removed that issue that you pointed out.
Please no DPS meter. It breaks immersion in my opinion. If it is an optional personal thing it is fine I guess, but don't make other people able to see each other's dps/hps output, because it will take away focus from the game itself and make it a war of numbers which would be a shame.
Ceepex
I agree it shouldnt be something that people feel the need to have on screen at all during content. This is something I have always considered a misuse of combat trackers.
My question is, would it concern you at all if I had one that I could use with my guild, but if you and I were in a group (assuming you are not in my guild), I am unable to see anything you are doing?
Not at all. I would like that actually. I would use it while I play with my friends as well, I would just hate it if in a group with "randoms" everyone can see each others dps/hps and then everything becomes about who does or does not do enough dps/hps.
But then the problem is when one can activate/deactivate showing their stats to the group, the ones who refuse to do it will get kicked from partys you know? so I don't think there can be a middle ground so better not include it unless I am missing something.
Thanks for the reply.
Honestly, this is the reaction most reasonable people have to this suggestion - it just kind of works for everyone that isnt being purposefully unreasonable.
When reasonable people come across a reasonable compromise, they tend to accept it. It is only unreasonable people that refuse.
Likewise, when reasonable people are faced with a point in a debate that renders their view as obviously incorrect, they change their position to be that of the now obviously correct position.
Some people do not do this, however.
You could also look at the brief interaction I had with akabear at the end of the last page, and top of this page. While I didnt convince them that trackers were the best thing ever, I did point out for them that they are likely to be of more use in Ashes than they thought would be the case based on their experience.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
PAGE 1 - ROUGH COUNT
Whitedude31: personal combat log 0 | + 23 Likes
Damokles: Noanni 1 | + 7 Likes + 2 Likes +3 Likes
Wandering Mist: personal combat log 1 | + 38 Likes + 15 Likes + 15 Likes +2 Likes
Swaftworth: personal combat log 2 | + 26 Likes + 1 Like
Wololo: No combat log 1 | + 20 Likes
grisu: Noaani 2 | + 17 Likes +6 Likes + 4 Likes
Burnthefern: personal combat log 3 | +2 Likes + 1 Like
Azatoth: No combat log 2 | + 17 Likes +7 Likes
syl: No combat log 3 | + 9 Likes
StreetCornerPoet: No combat log 4 | +5 Likes
Insomnia: No combat log 0 | + 6 Likes
Magic Man: No combat log 5 | + 4 Likes
Shoklen: No combat log 0 | + 2 Likes
Roko: personal combat log 4 | + 4 Likes
14 unique posters
Count of 0 if the poster just goes with whatever the devs want but gives no personal opinion.
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Seems like people on the first page overwhelming agree with Wandering Mist and Steven's position: personal combat log only.
Next most popular position is no combat at all.
Noanni's position of having the group leader or guild leader see other people's combat log is in the minority - any way you slice it - as far as I can tell.
On Page 1
It's 10:30 PM. And I parsed this right after 3 dance classes, so... I'm sure there sre some minor errors here, but... overall...
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Keep in mind, the bulk of those ok with personal trackers are ok with guild based trackers. That is a very clear statement that the guild tracker suggestion has fairly widespread support.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2022
Not on the first page. On the first page, people OK with guild based trackers are the minority. Significantly so.
And, no... I have always been against DPS meters - especially visible to the group leader and guild leader.
Ever since playing NWO in 2013.
Personal combat tracker can be OK. Even though I probably wouldn't use it much, if ever.
My problem with DPS meters is that it's the only tool used to evaluate roles.
Thus there is too much focus on relying on that as the sole measure of performing well.
As a Stealth Rogue, I don't want my usefulness to be measured primarily by DPS.
I want my usefulness to be determined by how well I Stealth, Recon and Disarm Traps.
Character could be doing a wide variety of other beneficial tasks that result in low DPS.
If we're going to have DPS meters, I also want other types of meters - like a soak meter and/or aggro meter for Tanks. Etc.
--- Dygz on Page 3
What I originally said is if Ashes is going to have DPS Meters I want them to provide more info than just DPS. I want them to give more detailed info that can help assess why someone has a low DPS. What other things were they doing to aid the group besides DPS? Numbers don't tell the whole story.
The problem isn't even Trackers or No Trackers here. We're beyond that. The actual problem here is just you. Your blatant disregard. You have plenty of Trackers Allowed games to play. But you aren't content with that, for some reason.
You seem to think I came in to this community at the same point in time as you - I've been here for 5 years now.
I mean, I put $500 on this game long before their stance on trackers was known.
It wasnt something I even considered looking in to before putting that money down - because literally no game has ever sustained a position against trackers, so why would this one?
After putting that money down, they decided to take up the position they have.
Since I am not obliged to agree with that position, nor to abide by it at all, I will not.
I have at times said that I would gladly take a refund of the money I have put in to the game, should Intrepid offer it.
"So why should this one"... because it's their right to do so?
I've put 300 into the game myself. I'm glad you supported it for the Early Alpha. I wasn't going to do the Play Testing because I do think it takes a certain type of player to go in and do the 'work' kind of play, and what they didn't need was a bunch of people being casual in that process (which they would have got if they just opened it to everyone).
Again, they are not trying to be like the Current MMOs. The entire reason Ashes is being created is Steven's feeling (that many of us here share) that the current state of MMOs sucks. We don't want what 'many MMOs' have to offer, we want something different.
One of those differences is the idea of No Trackers. All I'm saying is give Intrepid the opportunity. How hard is it to just simply try it, without Trackers? To respect the intent.
Again, if you want Trackers... plenty of games that offer them. THAT is the issue here. I absolutely take issue with those that actively go against the intent of the Developer, because you have valid options to go play. This is meant to be different, and we should give it the chance to be what it's trying to be.
But hey, if it's as simple as "If they give me my money back, I'll go play something else" I hope that happens. Because I think your stance is about as selfish and toxic as one could possibly be. I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here. And you openly say that's exactly what you are going to do. If it's a deal breaker, don't agree to the deal, don't sign the ToS, go play something that supports your idea.
Comments
I recall a fight in L2 that went a good 15-20min, until buffs died, as the tank I was trying to kill with a ranger just would not die and the tank could just not deal enough damage nor get close. Even took off my armor just to tease..!
Some of the fights that were most memorable went on a good 5-10min.
I also hope terrain has a play, height, cover, concealment and range.
I hope we have ability to pick up sticks or arrows, and arrange little camp fires on dead bodies, just to rub it in!
Funny that you don't even know that every player has access to a special room (trixion) where you have fully built in dps meter with many configuratable settings and build options to test
Not to say you are completely ignorant of the theorycrafting discords that disect the best way to play current classes and create meta guides for it where people make decisions on super minute things that can boost your output two-fold
― Plato
Less than a dozen peoples shows exactly why you were stuck in your own arguments and bias and aren't paying attention to what people think or want. Again you need to go reread things and understand that almost everyone is against what you are wanting.
You try to speak for a majority that in the end doesn't really give a f*** about meters and just wants a good game
― Plato
I didn't decide go reread the thread and understand people rather than trying to argue people. You literally are blind to the amount of people that are against the garbage you want, even more so in the case where you can view other players.
You are in the extreme minority NO ONE is backing you except a small handful of people and elitist. EVERYONE else is against this garbage get it through your head instead of sticking to YOUR BIAS. Stop trying to force your bs on a community that doesn't want it, go play WoW.
It is so clear that you are trying to get us into a deadlock where we both shout at each other that the other one is in echochamber.
What I can do is to point you toward download counts for xxiv/eq2 meters (i know the meter is used towards other games as well, but 2.7mil downloads is quite a lot). Then go and find lost ark discords and watch some class discords - you get daily people posting there what they were trying to find out in the lost ark dps meter room.
All you are doing is saying that you don't approve the playstyle of these people, so they have to abandon it or they will be banned from this game
― Plato
LMFAO Stop lying you don't do the work, the software does the damn work for you. All you do is hit your skills until the best option is shown there is no actual effort put in you are literarily being brain dead. The tool is there to watch people more than anything, and make things extreme easy at doing so.
Use the combat log if you think its the same thing and you will have 0 issue against what the community wants
holy shit you are a special one. Comparing combat assist addon with a combat log tracker
You misunderstand the topic, you argue without facts - just subjective "feels" and then you are insulting others for being "brain dead"?
Were you abused as a child? Or is there a different trauma for you to be this disconnected from reality?
― Plato
You are literately a issue, you are going to be loud now and quiet later on if you realize you can get banned for it.
Why would they give you a refund when eventually you are going to end up admitting it and getting banned anyway? Easy money for them lol.
in that case a fast google search spits out this:
"Legality. Phone hacking, being a form of surveillance, is illegal in many countries unless it is carried out as lawful interception by a government agency"
― Plato
I don't believe you, you have already stated you will go against the TOS and clearly will lie later on when you are using trackers. You aren't a honest person you are trying to say whatever you can to involve tracks, etc.
Every other honest person says there are good elements that makes it way easier to optimize and help people, and also acknowledges and sees the toxic elements first hand. But you with your decades of mmo experience says you haven't seen it used in a toxic way, you are bsing to try to convince people. We are all seeing through that.
― Plato
Me saying I use a combat tracker to parse combat on YouTube videos or streams or what ever is not going to be grounds for a ban.
I mean, I've made enough of a deal about it that I literally expect Intrepid to use me as the means to see if they can detect combat tracking software (and I have said as much innthe past). If they intend to actually ban players caught using tracking software, they first need to develop tools to detect it. Once developed, they need to test it before putting any weight behind what it finds. I fully expect to be the target of that test.
As I said, never seen a toxic interaction that is due to combat trackers. You dont need to believe me, and that's fine. However, since I have never owned a WoW account, and thus never needed to participate in WoWs LFG system, it really shouldnt be a surprise to anyone paying attention that I have not seen any such interaction.
I will say, you are now at the point in the "Stubborn Internet User Guidebook" where it is obvious you have no argument left to make against trackers, but since the stubborn part of the title prevents you from altering your opinion, all you are left with is attacks on people on the opposing side of the debate whom are still making valid points, points that you cant seem to refute.
You aren't making valid points, and lying or skewing context of what happens to convince yourself it isn't toxic isn't going to work.
We all know you will do whatever means possible and that includes being disingenuous with information. You haven't earned trust to take your words at face value by any means in this conversation. All your points have been garbage and already broken down by other people, you don't care what other people think or want only what you want at the end of the day.
The fact your you said if someone else does it you should be able to do it is frankly stupid and childish. You aren't a hero, you aren't a developer, the devs can worry about things and you can play the game as it is intended.
Granted you have to much ego to get off your high horse.
I bet only one of the people on that page (before Noaani is even involved) would object to the compromise being advocated for.
I'm probably not writing a whole parser just to disprove your Siegfried Leap, @Mag7spy, especially since I figure Noaani will ignore you soon enough, but if you insist on doing your usual, I can assign someone else to write it.
It's bad enough when you do the 'Invisible Silent Majority' thing, but straight up lying about a "Visible Engaged Majority" is going a bit low.
If you actually look through the pages its pretty clear people do not want dps meters I'm sure you can reread it and refresh your memory.
I'm willing to bet this is a lie. That's all I plan to say here, because even if I prove it's a lie, I get nothing out of it and it won't change you, as there's no Forum Rules against lying that I'm aware of, and you could easily just claim that you 'assumed it was true' and didn't 'really mean to lie'.
I'll count this as 'insisting', though.
All the post are there people have gone through it lmao. If you don't want to understand how people and the community feels that is on you.
Its funny that you would assume the other way though without actually looking through the forum post with the 100 pages that are up. That is why you and I are different' ill look through pages and see the people for, against, half against and their reasons for unique people.
I think you don't know what I mean when I say 'someone will write a parser', but please continue to believe these sorts of things, as it makes dealing with you easier.
Position, not suggestion. I believe Noaani's position has been clarified. Suggestions often take more scrutiny.
Position:
"Combat Trackers that don't track other people unless they want to be tracked are good/okay."
Suggestion:
"Ashes should make their own combat tracker for people/guilds and have it be opt-in instead of the alternative."
If I do parse it, I will parse for position, not suggestion, because unless every person who posted had a chance to talk to Noaani specifically about the suggestion, there would be no way to know their opinion on the suggestion itself.
It makes me have an interesting perception though.
If I have a personal combat log that tells me all the data, and I write the parser for that, have I violated ToS because of writing and activating it?
At what point does my Excel Spreadsheet become bad?
Obviously for a programmer, drawing the line is hard. People say 'do it by pen and paper or by excel sheet', but to me, if you say 'you can use a calculator' and 'you can use Excel', I can program now, so I have a 'Combat Tracker'.
What is it exactly that people want from me, then? What is it that I am not supposed to do? Is it that I'm only allowed to use a Tracker if I program it myself? What if my team writes it together? Can we all use it then?
Noaani: "There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed."
With
Azherae: "Literally page one of this gigantic post, taken in aggregate, favors Noaani's position."
The first page seems to be about 50/50. People who are fine with a personal combat log, but who do not want that info to be shown publicly vs people who want personal combat logs to be shown publicly to group or guild leaders...especilly if it's opt in.
And I don't see Noanni convincing people to change their opinions.
The funny thing about this is - you were all for the suggestion at one point. You even pointed a few things out that assisted in shaping someone the finer details of it.
It wasnt until Steven said he was against trackers that you decided tou were all of a sudden against the suggestion as well.
In fact, from memory, it was a comment you made that gave me the idea to add to the suggestion the limit trackers to working on those in your guild rather than giving players the option, as if the option is given to each player, group members will be required to share that data in order to join the group.
Switching that to guilds removed that issue that you pointed out.
I'll quote the final of four posts in the discussion I had with Ceepex so you can see for yourself.
When reasonable people come across a reasonable compromise, they tend to accept it. It is only unreasonable people that refuse.
Likewise, when reasonable people are faced with a point in a debate that renders their view as obviously incorrect, they change their position to be that of the now obviously correct position.
Some people do not do this, however.
You could also look at the brief interaction I had with akabear at the end of the last page, and top of this page. While I didnt convince them that trackers were the best thing ever, I did point out for them that they are likely to be of more use in Ashes than they thought would be the case based on their experience.
Whitedude31: personal combat log 0 | + 23 Likes
Damokles: Noanni 1 | + 7 Likes + 2 Likes +3 Likes
Wandering Mist: personal combat log 1 | + 38 Likes + 15 Likes + 15 Likes +2 Likes
Swaftworth: personal combat log 2 | + 26 Likes + 1 Like
Wololo: No combat log 1 | + 20 Likes
grisu: Noaani 2 | + 17 Likes +6 Likes + 4 Likes
Burnthefern: personal combat log 3 | +2 Likes + 1 Like
Azatoth: No combat log 2 | + 17 Likes +7 Likes
syl: No combat log 3 | + 9 Likes
StreetCornerPoet: No combat log 4 | +5 Likes
Insomnia: No combat log 0 | + 6 Likes
Magic Man: No combat log 5 | + 4 Likes
Shoklen: No combat log 0 | + 2 Likes
Roko: personal combat log 4 | + 4 Likes
14 unique posters
Count of 0 if the poster just goes with whatever the devs want but gives no personal opinion.
Agree with Noaani position: Total = 2 | + 39 Likes
Personal combat log only: Total = 4 | + 109 Likes
No combat log: Total = 5 | + 52 Likes
Seems like people on the first page overwhelming agree with Wandering Mist and Steven's position: personal combat log only.
Next most popular position is no combat at all.
Noanni's position of having the group leader or guild leader see other people's combat log is in the minority - any way you slice it - as far as I can tell.
On Page 1
It's 10:30 PM. And I parsed this right after 3 dance classes, so... I'm sure there sre some minor errors here, but... overall...
Keep in mind, the bulk of those ok with personal trackers are ok with guild based trackers. That is a very clear statement that the guild tracker suggestion has fairly widespread support.
And, no... I have always been against DPS meters - especially visible to the group leader and guild leader.
Ever since playing NWO in 2013.
Personal combat tracker can be OK. Even though I probably wouldn't use it much, if ever.
--- Dygz on Page 3
What I originally said is if Ashes is going to have DPS Meters I want them to provide more info than just DPS. I want them to give more detailed info that can help assess why someone has a low DPS. What other things were they doing to aid the group besides DPS? Numbers don't tell the whole story.
"So why should this one"... because it's their right to do so?
I've put 300 into the game myself. I'm glad you supported it for the Early Alpha. I wasn't going to do the Play Testing because I do think it takes a certain type of player to go in and do the 'work' kind of play, and what they didn't need was a bunch of people being casual in that process (which they would have got if they just opened it to everyone).
Again, they are not trying to be like the Current MMOs. The entire reason Ashes is being created is Steven's feeling (that many of us here share) that the current state of MMOs sucks. We don't want what 'many MMOs' have to offer, we want something different.
One of those differences is the idea of No Trackers. All I'm saying is give Intrepid the opportunity. How hard is it to just simply try it, without Trackers? To respect the intent.
Again, if you want Trackers... plenty of games that offer them. THAT is the issue here. I absolutely take issue with those that actively go against the intent of the Developer, because you have valid options to go play. This is meant to be different, and we should give it the chance to be what it's trying to be.
But hey, if it's as simple as "If they give me my money back, I'll go play something else" I hope that happens. Because I think your stance is about as selfish and toxic as one could possibly be. I literally believe if you are just going to undermine ToS or Community Guidelines, you don't belong here. And you openly say that's exactly what you are going to do. If it's a deal breaker, don't agree to the deal, don't sign the ToS, go play something that supports your idea.