I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.
@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
Intrepid listening to feedback on no dps meters and everyone cheers.
There are actually currently less than a dozen posters that are against trackers if implemented in the manner I have discussed.
But sure, everyone cheers.
NT People don't want to have DPs meters in any form, just because they say they would be ok not wanting to argue anymore, etc doesn't mean they want DPS meters. You are just trying to argue everyone post to get them to somewhat change their mind so you can slowly move the goal post over. Almost everyone doesn't want them at all. Classic manipulation, simply stop trying to argue everyone on it and try just hearing what people say and the direction of what they want.
You're the one that said "the community doesnt want trackers", I simply pointed out that there are only a handful of people that are posting that they dont want them at all - when the VAST MAJORITY of people are perfectly happy with the guild/family suggestion.
As to my trying to somehow move the goalpost, I'm not sure which goalpost it is you are talking about.
I've been arguing for a family based tracker since basically the beginning. That wont change.
Steven means... learn how to play the game without relying on DPS meters.
And the devs should design the game such that we don't need to rely on DPS meters.
The problem with this that Steven doesnt understand is that back then, back in the day when MMO's were great, people were using combat trackers.
Those people that helped Steven - they helped him by using objective data from a tracker.
Sure, he may not have used one - indeed he may not have known they were even a thing. His guild would have though, at least some people - and those people are the ones that are best suited to helping out.
So, Steven has this memory of MMO's without combat trackers being some.magical time where players helped each other and everything was just grand - except that memory was actually of a time when people ran combat trackers, but had fixed servers without cross server play, had no automated grouping, and so wanted to get the most out of the people around them.
Basically, what Steven is remembering here is what I have been saying all along about combat trackers but no LFG, teleporting or cross server grouping.
I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.
@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
Just to throw in here since I thought this was known already, no one I know has any issue with trackers.
Certainly not the tracker type Noaani has suggested, which seems like a good idea.
We are silent because when you have a skilled advocate willing to put in their time on something they understand better than you, you shut up and let them do their thing and don't get in the way.
I know this doesn't matter to you specifically, Mag, just noting it to remind people not to be pulled in by your 'whole community' assertion.
I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.
Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.
You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.
I just went though the older comments on the thread I get a better idea of new people rather than the same people going back and forth. I think Noaani forgot how many people he has been arguing with and how the majority of people don't' want it. Even if some people are find with personal tracks or just combat logs (which are in the game) only only further skews the idea of a DPS meter in forum of groups and guild not something people want by a large majority.
Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.
You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.
I think you need to go back over the thread and realizes how many people are against it and were tired of arguing with you. You simply want DPS meters to make the game easier for you, rather ran putting the time and and figuring things out yourself. All pints brought up have just been excuses for laziness.
Most the people here don't want DPS meters, they will have a combat log that will give them the information they need to see their damage and such. You ask the same people if they would prefer a game without dps meters and the answer would be clear and why they don't want other people to see information on them through a DPS meter.
The fact you get this much push back through a 100 pages should tell you that right there. They are toxic and people don't want that garbage. Use your combat tracker, use your brain, experiment and testing things out. There is far more to be gained from that and sharing information and people find the best ways to adjust their combat and grow. in groups and themselves.
Now if we get into a conversation of all the people that don't post if they were to this wouldn't even be a question. Everyone would be crapping on this kind of post compared to the few people that are for DPS meters that haven't commented.
The Devs aren't here to negotiate with you. You even say they put out feelers to get a sense of what the community wanted, and AFTER THAT said "We are going with No Trackers". That means that got the info from the COMMUNITY, and from that likely saw THE COMMUNITY at large didn't want them.
Two points here.
First, I am not talking to Intrepid, I am talking to you.
Second, the above isnt how it happened either - the community started talking about them, and Steven basically came in with his pre-existing misconception of trackers and decided to make policy bases on that.
The sad thing is, Steven knows full well trackers are kot a source of toxicity, but players are. He knows full well that he himself is the most toxic MMO player many thousands of people on his server in Archeage have ever come across.
When the most toxic player you have ever seen -that doesnt know what a combat tracker can even do - tells you that combat trackers cause toxicity, you know something is wrong with their statement.
Steven's later comment on it is all you need to know - he doesnt want them and he is making the decisions.
That doesn't mean it is the right decision.
The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.
It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.
That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.
Nooani is fighting to have this limited combat tracker.
limited to guilds that WANT to have it = no problem, you don't join guild for its name, color of logo but for its mindset, goals and way to reach goals. so only people who are ok with combat tracker will join guilds with it, while you who hate it will never join such guild, and if you are guild leader, you will never chose this perk, in favor of another guild perk. (Because yes... being a guild perk, it won't be totally free)
But yes, nooani seeing what problem could come, he tries to fight for a far less problematic way to do, he is a bad neighbor.
Because you, holy saint, defenders of laws... You just consider "ban them all"
When nooani says "People will use it and won't get ban" it is not a defiance, it is fact... You may dislike it and cry about them being bad neighbor what would it change ? FFXIV is perfect example... people are recorded without even knowing it, and their data are uploaded on a well known site, people can use (and some are using) to reject them from their party...
This is the way Ashes is going right now. And nooani, just want to reduce or even avoid it.
Why his idea would avoid it ? Most people don't care about parsing unknown. And if they have already built in tracker in game they won't have to take another one... always better/easier to use the tools directly in game.
Yes, people are toxic, not the tool, and YES seeing numbers on the tool opens a way to be toxic, and... YES they should be ban, not for using the tool, but for being toxic.
Now you seems to be "law law law" is the way to be a good neighbor right ?
One of my parent's neighbor, for years, and years complains about his bad neighbor behaviour, all according to law... It went to a point that police and mayor now, uses any way they can (with law) to make his life harsh. The good neighbor is not the one that respect a law or a spirit of a law, the good neighbor is the one that is smiling, offering help, invite others to diner... I personally fire wood bbq which is not allowed in my town... neighbors never complained, and i know if a new neighbor complain, they would be angry because... they like when i invite them to share a good piece of fish or meat cooked this way. He would be the bad neighbor in this story, in the mind of all others.
Bad/good are subjectiv things, the law don't say what is bad or good, it says what is allowed and what is forbidden. This is different. And a law can be bad... really bad. history has lot of example of it.
About activate or not : Worst idea. it add a thing to do (less userfriendly) to have the same result... dumb people will kick brainlessly anyone who dont activate it. and still kick people activating it but with bad result.
normal people will say "no problem" do run, and begin to mind problems only if their begin to struggle. as does with a totally open combat tracker.
I do consider "Ban them all", if "all" means "Those that agreed to a ToS they knew they would never honor." Yes, that is my stance, completely.
Should we follow a ToS we agree to, or not? You tell me. Break it down for me.
My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?
9001% agree, ban (doesn't mean its a perma ban depending on case to case and intent) them all and make a statement else people will do it without worry. Once you set a benchmark people will think twice on this kind of thing and not play games.
The Devs aren't here to negotiate with you. You even say they put out feelers to get a sense of what the community wanted, and AFTER THAT said "We are going with No Trackers". That means that got the info from the COMMUNITY, and from that likely saw THE COMMUNITY at large didn't want them.
Two points here.
First, I am not talking to Intrepid, I am talking to you.
Second, the above isnt how it happened either - the community started talking about them, and Steven basically came in with his pre-existing misconception of trackers and decided to make policy bases on that.
The sad thing is, Steven knows full well trackers are kot a source of toxicity, but players are. He knows full well that he himself is the most toxic MMO player many thousands of people on his server in Archeage have ever come across.
When the most toxic player you have ever seen -that doesnt know what a combat tracker can even do - tells you that combat trackers cause toxicity, you know something is wrong with their statement.
Steven's later comment on it is all you need to know - he doesnt want them and he is making the decisions.
That doesn't mean it is the right decision.
The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.
It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.
That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but where I am from, if I have a right that is pre-existing and someone comes in and says they want to take that right away, they are automatically looked on unfavorably.
A company that attempts to remove an individual's rights where I am from is considered an oppressor. Now again, maybe this is different where you are, maybe your society considered oppressors to be good. I still neither know nor care.
The other thing to keep on mind, this whole discussion here is based on Intrepid using language in their ToS that had never been used, and will likely cause a bit of controversy if they did. The invasiveness that would need to be put in place would absolutely see most gaming outlets report on it.
As it stands now, without needing to use "loopholes", my expectation is that the combat trackers made now are not going to be against the ToS.
Edit to add: the ToS cant just say "no trackers". They need to specify what functions they dont want software performing, AND how they dont want it interacting with the game client. Both need to be present for it to be in the ToS.
Since combat trackers exist that do not interact with the game client, the ToS for that piece of software simply can not prevent me from using them - as once again the ToS for the game client can ONLY cover how the game client is used, and how other software can interact with it. If your software is not interacting with the game client at all, the ToS of that game client simply can not prevent you using it
9001% agree, ban (doesn't mean its a perma ban depending on case to case and intent) them all and make a statement else people will do it without worry. Once you set a benchmark people will think twice on this kind of thing and not play games.
The problem here is - even if it is against the ToS, how do you ban people? As I said, they dont need to be run on the same computer as the game client.
In order to ban people using trackers - assuming they have grounds to do so - you still need to identify people using them.
That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.
That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.
I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.
I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.
And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.
I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.
And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.
What you are now talking about is an FFXIV style of tracker acceptance.
More people in that game use trackers than I would expect to see in Ashes.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Clearly, this only works if you have a solid understanding of the topic, and a solid understanding of your position within that topic. If either of these are not that well established, a slippery slope argument may be of some merit, but it is akin to saying you have no issue with where the debate is now, but are afraid that it may lead to somewhere you have an issue with.
As such, since no one is talking about combat assistants, there is no need to debate them at all yet - unless you agree with me that trackers are fine, and wish to draw that line before combat assistants.
Another point to note that you may not be aware of - combat trackers are not inherently add ons. An add on is - as it sounds - an addition to an application. It is essentially a mod.
A combat tracker like ACT is it's own application, and so isnt an add on.
I am against add ons, and will happily get in to a debate as to why add ons in themself shouldnt be a thing in Ashes.
However, that is not the same discussion as a combat tracker, especially a combat tracker built in to the game.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.
Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.
Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.
As I said, if someone else pushes for combat assistants, we can have that debate.
Right now, we are having the debate about combat trackers though.
You dont use the possibility of combat assistants to further your argument about combat trackers, because they are not the same thing.
As a point of interest, the ToS of almost all games prevents the use of combat assistants, as they need to interact directly with the game client.
As such, they are easy to identify without being overly evasive.
Again though, the issue with arguing a slippery slope argument is that it just doesnt work.
You're arguing against combat trackers, and claiming that they could lead to assistants. Why not argue against people using Excel as a manual combat tracker? I mean, a combat tracker is literally a spreadsheet that gets auto filled (some trackers back in the 90s for Meridian 59 and such used to literally just give you something to paste in to Excel, and MUD users back in the day used to just manually populate Excel templates as the games were slow enough to allow this).
If you want to prevent excel use, then why not ask for a ban on calculators while playing? I mean, excel is basically just a fast calculator.
Then you need to ask for a ban on pen and paper, because that is just a slower calculator.
This is why slippery slope arguments are not valid. You draw your line,and you argue up to it, but not past it.
Further to that, if combat trackers meant combat assistants were next, that would necessitate that all games with combat trackers also have combat assistants.
This isnt true, and in fact the only game I know of that has anything I would consider a combat assistant is WoW - and that is only because Blizzard literally doesnt care.
So, even if we ignore the slippery slope argument you are trying here, you cant really argue that combat trackers leads to combat assistants when all evidence says otherwise.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.
Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.
As I said, if someone else pushes for combat assistants, we can have that debate.
Right now, we are having the debate about combat trackers though.
You dont use the possibility of combat assistants to further your argument about combat trackers, because they are not the same thing.
As a point of interest, the ToS of almost all games prevents the use of combat assistants, as they need to interact directly with the game client.
As such, they are easy to identify without being overly evasive.
Again though, the issue with arguing a slippery slope argument is that it just doesnt work.
You're arguing against combat trackers, and claiming that they could lead to assistants. Why not argue against people using Excel as a manual combat tracker? I mean, a combat tracker is literally a spreadsheet that gets auto filled (some trackers back in the 90s for Meridian 59 and such used to literally just give you something to paste in to Excel, and MUD users back in the day used to just manually populate Excel templates as the games were slow enough to allow this).
If you want to prevent excel use, then why not ask for a ban on calculators while playing? I mean, excel is basically just a fast calculator.
Then you need to ask for a ban on pen and paper, because that is just a slower calculator.
This is why slippery slope arguments are not valid. You draw your line,and you argue up to it, but not past it.
Further to that, if combat trackers meant combat assistants were next, that would necessitate that all games with combat trackers also have combat assistants.
This isnt true, and in fact the only game I know of that has anything I would consider a combat assistant is WoW - and that is only because Blizzard literally doesnt care.
So, even if we ignore the slippery slope argument you are trying here, you cant really argue that combat trackers leads to combat assistants when all evidence says otherwise.
Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them. Its not about what you think its about what people in general will want to do, and any add on or DPS meter should not be included in the game as the company is not supporting it.
Then you don't need a combat tracker and you can put in the work and figure out things on your own so we are on the same page then.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized. There is no reason to even get to that point, use your combat log in game and figure things out and socialize with people as AoC is suppose to be.
Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.
I mean, this makes no sense.
Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.
There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.
While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.
I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.
I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.
Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant
Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).
They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.
It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.
When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.
Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).
Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.
For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.
The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.
So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?
At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.
That is not your right to use a dps meter / trackers / add ons / etc in a game wtf. No gaming outfits are going to care about a TOS that says no trackers. Stop trying to act like a victim, play WoW if you want that stuff.
I mean, you dont just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can just state that my software is called a logger, ir a meter, or what ever.
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
You know exactly what they mean by Trackers. In fact, you know a ton about Trackers.
You understand the intent. That's the point.
You don't respect that intent at all, and you have no intent in following that despite knowing you are going to click "Agree" on that ToS.
Even if it's an Honor System and they just trust you to follow the ToS that you agreed to, if you decided not to that makes you the bad neighbor. Sure, they can't enforce it, but you understand the intent from the developer and you choose to ignore it. That's the issue.
It's the entire "They can't enforce it so I'm going to do what I want" that makes you the Bad Neighbor. Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.
There are PLENTY of games that open their arms to Trackers, that want them used. Stick to those games then (that is, IF the ToS comes out against Trackers... it's not in stone until the ToS after all).
That's the issue I have with you. You understand the intent, and you simply choose to not respect it and do your own thing anyways. That's not being a Good Neighbor at all.
Let's say it's just Community Guidelines, and in those Guidelines they say they don't want Trackers used. Well there it is, the intent. You understand it. And you disrespect the Community if you then fail to follow those Guidelines.
It's your steadfast refusal under any circumstance. That's not negotiating. That's demanding. It never mattered what Intrepid said, you were going to do your thing regardless. And somehow, to you, that's Good Neighbor Negotiating.
You openly talk about how you will agree to terms that you will then refuse to follow. I appreciate the honesty, I really do... doesn't make you the Good Neighbor here.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you.
If it wasn't you wouldn't need it. It's assisting you on gathering all the data.
Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them.
I mean, this makes no sense.
Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.
There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.
While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.
I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.
I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.
Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant
Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).
They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.
It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.
When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.
Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).
Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.
For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.
The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized.
So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?
At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.
"Why do most games..."
We generally feel MMOs are in a crap state. We don't WANT most MMOs. That's the point of Ashes.
If you want MOST MMOs, go play them. Stop trying to make Ashes into Most MMOs.
They are literally taking this route to distance themselves from 'Most MMOs', because the MMO Community has pretty much said we've endured a Decade of Suckage.
We don't want that Suckage in Ashes. And maybe it fails because it's trying to buck those trends. I'd rather it fail for that, than fail for trying to be like 'Most MMOs'.
So when you bring up 'Most MMOs', yeah... those are all the MMOs we're leaving or have already left. Why in the world would we want that here?
That's like hating the laws in your state, so you move to a different state ran by the other party... and go right back to voting for the party that ran your old state. Don't bring that crap here, you fled that crap already. Now you want to do that here?
We left those games. We don't want that crap here.
Most games have Fast Travel. We don't want that here. Most games don't require any Social to get a group going, you just click a button and you are in a group and in a Dungeon. We don't want that here. Blizzard stood right there on stage and said "You think you want that, but you don't... now you just click a button and you're in the Dungeon". Turns out, we'd rather have the Social aspect back again.
There are certain principles and ideas about Ashes, that are contrary to the current state of MMOs. That's the ENTIRE POINT of Ashes. We don't want Ashes to be all those other MMOs, we're ACTIVELY HERE for something different.
We feel MMOs were ruined, because of all the crap that developers told us we wanted. Why play the game, when you can just pay money and have a Max Character? Why interact with people, when you can just click a button and you're in a Dungeon with a full group? Why travel the world, when you can just click a button and now you're all the way on the other side of it? Turns out, we don't like those things. We don't want those things.
We're leaving THOSE games, to come to THIS one. And the idea of THIS GAME, is that it's not going to do those things.
Now you're coming here saying "All those games do it, we should do it.". No, we shouldn't... and that's WHY we shouldn't. Because our entire feeling (and you can say it's objectively wrong if you like) is that the current state of MMOs SUCKS. We don't want what is currently offered. That's WHY we're here, waiting on and supporting Ashes.
Again, we could be wrong. Current State of MMOs might be awesome. Ashes might try different things and fail. Cool, fine. We'd rather a new attempt, a different strategy. We don't want 'Most MMOs', we're actively fleeing from them... and here you are trying to go against that.
How about just give this game a chance, the way Steven and the Team envision it? That's a thing, a Good Faith thing you could do.
If we wanted most other MMOs, we wouldn't be HERE. I'm not exactly sure why you are here, you don't seem to be down with their vision. Steven has clearly stated the vision, and you're fighting it tooth and nail.
That's weird, man. You'd rather stick around, accept a ToS or Community Guideline you have zero intent of following. When you could just play a game that accepts those things and encourages them.
Meanwhile, the rest of us are fleeing exactly those things, and here you are saying we should put them in the game. We've had that, we've done that, we don't want that here. That's fine there. We don't want it HERE. If we want Trackers, there are places we can go for that. Many many places. The idea here is different, and that difference is why we're here.
Again all this stuff is toxic, this conversation about the possibility of secretly doing it shows it right there. All the connection to this kind of stuff either leads to it being toxic in some form, or there to make games easier because people would rather have that and a bunch of add-ons so they have an advantage over people. All so they can either be the strongest guild or do world first while not even relying on their own skills but simply tools playing for them. Finding people that have honor and grow their own skills with their own knowledge is getting harder and harder to find nowadays clearly.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons . When you stop all add-ons then there is no chance any types of things being added into the game including dps meters. As it isn't important with some work and thought you can figure things out on your own without a tool to do all the heavy work for you, you simply are just asking for a easy cheat.
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.
So not quite comparable there bud.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Care to clarify?
That it is acceptable to speculate on the possible consequences of the presence of DPS meters/Combat trackers in a game, without it constituting a fallacious argument.
The false equivalence you drew there however, does lean more towards a fallacy.
It has been the experience of many that DPS meters/Combat trackers lead to less than ideal social interactions and to some level of exclusion. I can appreciate that you may not be one of the perpetrator of said behaviours, but allowing you the opportunity to have them, opens the door for more nefarious people to abuse them in all the wrong ways.
If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc).
Comments
@Noaani When are you going to get off your high horse and accept what the community wants?
You're the one that said "the community doesnt want trackers", I simply pointed out that there are only a handful of people that are posting that they dont want them at all - when the VAST MAJORITY of people are perfectly happy with the guild/family suggestion.
As to my trying to somehow move the goalpost, I'm not sure which goalpost it is you are talking about.
I've been arguing for a family based tracker since basically the beginning. That wont change.
Those people that helped Steven - they helped him by using objective data from a tracker.
Sure, he may not have used one - indeed he may not have known they were even a thing. His guild would have though, at least some people - and those people are the ones that are best suited to helping out.
So, Steven has this memory of MMO's without combat trackers being some.magical time where players helped each other and everything was just grand - except that memory was actually of a time when people ran combat trackers, but had fixed servers without cross server play, had no automated grouping, and so wanted to get the most out of the people around them.
Basically, what Steven is remembering here is what I have been saying all along about combat trackers but no LFG, teleporting or cross server grouping.
Just to throw in here since I thought this was known already, no one I know has any issue with trackers.
Certainly not the tracker type Noaani has suggested, which seems like a good idea.
We are silent because when you have a skilled advocate willing to put in their time on something they understand better than you, you shut up and let them do their thing and don't get in the way.
I know this doesn't matter to you specifically, Mag, just noting it to remind people not to be pulled in by your 'whole community' assertion.
Not at all. However, if you actually pay attention, in most cases it eventually goes exactly how my brief interaction with Ceepex above went - dont want trackers (usually because of WoW - which is understandable). Hears the suggestion of s guild based tracker and thinks it's a great idea.
You are right in that a lot of people have initially come in to this thread being against them. The thing is, unlike you, most people are open minded enough to change their position upon hearing a good argument.
I think you need to go back over the thread and realizes how many people are against it and were tired of arguing with you. You simply want DPS meters to make the game easier for you, rather ran putting the time and and figuring things out yourself. All pints brought up have just been excuses for laziness.
Most the people here don't want DPS meters, they will have a combat log that will give them the information they need to see their damage and such. You ask the same people if they would prefer a game without dps meters and the answer would be clear and why they don't want other people to see information on them through a DPS meter.
The fact you get this much push back through a 100 pages should tell you that right there. They are toxic and people don't want that garbage. Use your combat tracker, use your brain, experiment and testing things out. There is far more to be gained from that and sharing information and people find the best ways to adjust their combat and grow. in groups and themselves.
Now if we get into a conversation of all the people that don't post if they were to this wouldn't even be a question. Everyone would be crapping on this kind of post compared to the few people that are for DPS meters that haven't commented.
Put your hands up we can box this.
The point is, if the ToS says "No Trackers" and you say "You can't stop me", that's you being the Bad Neighbor. Because you agreed to the ToS, and you understand the intent.
It's really that simple. You are refusing to follow a rule... so why play THIS game then? Go play something else that doesn't have that rule.
That's the complete issue. You are knowingly going to agree to a ToS, to a Community Guideline, knowing full well you aren't going to follow it. That's the problem.
I do consider "Ban them all", if "all" means "Those that agreed to a ToS they knew they would never honor." Yes, that is my stance, completely.
Should we follow a ToS we agree to, or not? You tell me. Break it down for me.
My stance is, so it's clear, IF the ToS says No Trackers, then don't use Trackers. Ta-da. There it is. Do you agree or disagree with that stance?
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but where I am from, if I have a right that is pre-existing and someone comes in and says they want to take that right away, they are automatically looked on unfavorably.
A company that attempts to remove an individual's rights where I am from is considered an oppressor. Now again, maybe this is different where you are, maybe your society considered oppressors to be good. I still neither know nor care.
The other thing to keep on mind, this whole discussion here is based on Intrepid using language in their ToS that had never been used, and will likely cause a bit of controversy if they did. The invasiveness that would need to be put in place would absolutely see most gaming outlets report on it.
As it stands now, without needing to use "loopholes", my expectation is that the combat trackers made now are not going to be against the ToS.
Edit to add: the ToS cant just say "no trackers". They need to specify what functions they dont want software performing, AND how they dont want it interacting with the game client. Both need to be present for it to be in the ToS.
Since combat trackers exist that do not interact with the game client, the ToS for that piece of software simply can not prevent me from using them - as once again the ToS for the game client can ONLY cover how the game client is used, and how other software can interact with it. If your software is not interacting with the game client at all, the ToS of that game client simply can not prevent you using it
The problem here is - even if it is against the ToS, how do you ban people? As I said, they dont need to be run on the same computer as the game client.
In order to ban people using trackers - assuming they have grounds to do so - you still need to identify people using them.
How do they even do that?
What you need to do is say the function isnt allowed. Then you need to prove that a piece of software is performing that function.
As such, the language required to ban trackers in any way that could be considered effective would basically mean Intrepid need to be able to scan your computer for installed applications, and monitor all incoming and outgoing network traffic - whether the game client is running or not. Unless, of course, you expect them to not make provisions for detecting them at all...
That absolutely will cause a bit of a commotion.
Even with that language in place, I am still able to run a tracker without them detecting it.
There is a reason literally no MMO has banned trackers. They essentially cant.
They can't ban without proof, but if you give proof that will be plenty or someone catches you and can show proof. We both know what game you are trying to play here, what you are saying right now if the game was out and you admitted to doing it and it was against the guidelines it would be plenty of proof.
And if it in any way connects to the games files that is 100% a ban. Its akin to the people that you see multiboxing on the same computer trying to not get caught for as long as possible.
What you are now talking about is an FFXIV style of tracker acceptance.
More people in that game use trackers than I would expect to see in Ashes.
You seem to be conflating combat trackers with combat assistants here.
No one is asking for combat assistants.
Please stick to combat trackers as the topic at hand - if we ever get on to debating combat assistants, we will be on the same side.
Nothing is confused it is simply the next step of what some people would want to try to include. You start with one thing to make it more acceptable to add more and more into the game in the form of other add ons
The game will have a combat log for all your testing needs with min/maxing.
A slippery slope argument (which is what you have here) isnt overly valid.
The reason is, all a slippery slope argument is, when broken down, is a redefinition of where a line should be drawn.
You say they shouldnt have combat trackers because that could lead down the slope to combat assistants, someone else may say they shouldnt have combat, because we all know combat in an MMO will lead to combat trackers, and that may lead to combat assistants.
As such, you work out for yourself where your line is, you draw that, and you debate up to that point. When that line is crossed, you start debating about that crossed line - but not before then.
Clearly, this only works if you have a solid understanding of the topic, and a solid understanding of your position within that topic. If either of these are not that well established, a slippery slope argument may be of some merit, but it is akin to saying you have no issue with where the debate is now, but are afraid that it may lead to somewhere you have an issue with.
As such, since no one is talking about combat assistants, there is no need to debate them at all yet - unless you agree with me that trackers are fine, and wish to draw that line before combat assistants.
Another point to note that you may not be aware of - combat trackers are not inherently add ons. An add on is - as it sounds - an addition to an application. It is essentially a mod.
A combat tracker like ACT is it's own application, and so isnt an add on.
I am against add ons, and will happily get in to a debate as to why add ons in themself shouldnt be a thing in Ashes.
However, that is not the same discussion as a combat tracker, especially a combat tracker built in to the game.
The difference being of course that one is the core of the game, whilst the other is a third party tool brought on to automate certain processes, and which the game is telling you you're not allowed to use.
So not quite comparable there bud.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Care to clarify?
Exactly why all that stuff needs to stay out of AoC, so people can't work out for themselves until it gets where each single person desire on that side of things including yourself. Axe it off and leave no room for those to be included into AoC. Just like you are pushing for something someone else will push for something else and it will keep going till you all ruin the game.
Thankfully you are in the extreme minority and the developer isn't supporting DPS meters or any add ons.
As I said, if someone else pushes for combat assistants, we can have that debate.
Right now, we are having the debate about combat trackers though.
You dont use the possibility of combat assistants to further your argument about combat trackers, because they are not the same thing.
As a point of interest, the ToS of almost all games prevents the use of combat assistants, as they need to interact directly with the game client.
As such, they are easy to identify without being overly evasive.
Again though, the issue with arguing a slippery slope argument is that it just doesnt work.
You're arguing against combat trackers, and claiming that they could lead to assistants. Why not argue against people using Excel as a manual combat tracker? I mean, a combat tracker is literally a spreadsheet that gets auto filled (some trackers back in the 90s for Meridian 59 and such used to literally just give you something to paste in to Excel, and MUD users back in the day used to just manually populate Excel templates as the games were slow enough to allow this).
If you want to prevent excel use, then why not ask for a ban on calculators while playing? I mean, excel is basically just a fast calculator.
Then you need to ask for a ban on pen and paper, because that is just a slower calculator.
This is why slippery slope arguments are not valid. You draw your line,and you argue up to it, but not past it.
Further to that, if combat trackers meant combat assistants were next, that would necessitate that all games with combat trackers also have combat assistants.
This isnt true, and in fact the only game I know of that has anything I would consider a combat assistant is WoW - and that is only because Blizzard literally doesnt care.
So, even if we ignore the slippery slope argument you are trying here, you cant really argue that combat trackers leads to combat assistants when all evidence says otherwise.
Its a fact, the same way with DPs meters being solo for yourself and then people wanting them extended to everyone and others around them. Its not about what you think its about what people in general will want to do, and any add on or DPS meter should not be included in the game as the company is not supporting it.
Then you don't need a combat tracker and you can put in the work and figure out things on your own so we are on the same page then.
You are simply trying to look at things in a way that benefits your view point trying to dumb it down and say its like pen and paper lmao. You have a program doing all the work and you aren't actually trying to figure things out on your own, and in the worst version you are trying to figure out what everyone else is doing which leads to toxic behavior.
They have stated on the record they aren't supporting dps meters, they gave people to speak up and they did and it has been clear for 100 pages people don't' want it. Go reread all the post and reflect and realize what the community has voiced.
Again the slippery slope is fact, one thing leads to the next, which leads to more types of add on as people try to create a environment where it is normalized. There is no reason to even get to that point, use your combat log in game and figure things out and socialize with people as AoC is suppose to be.
Combat trackers have never been for solo people. If a combat tracker came out that was solo only, or if people started talking about one, obviously people would want it for those around them, because that is what people have always had.
There was never a situation in which solo trackers were a thing and group trackers were not. This wouldn't be a case of people complaining and wanting more, it would be a case if people wanting what they already had.
While you could then say "but people in WoW had combat assistants,so they would just argue for what they had", the easy answer to that (and an answer I would give should anyone seriously ask for combat assistants) is that since they are exclusive to WoW, as opposed to a genre staple, you cant really use the argument that they exist in that one game. I am indeed trying to dumb things down a bit, but only to suit my current audience.
I didnt say combat trackers are like pen and paper, I used it as an example of why a slippery slope argument is not a good thing.
I'll try it again for you. Here is a scale.
Pen and paper
Calculator
Excel
Combat tracker
Combat assistant
Draw a line where you are content, and argue up to that point. There is no need to argue anything outside of what people are asking for.
I'm not talking to Intrepid, I'm talking to you. If Intrepid had confidence that the decision they have made is what the community wants, they would host a poll like they did for multiboxing (which needs to be boosted by Intrepid, and needs to have actual pertinent information such as no actual way to stop people using combat trackers).
They wont do that though, because they know what the result will be.
It's funny, you tell me to go back and read the thread - despite the fact I wrote the plurality of it. Even if I did go back through the thread, that isnt going to show the dozens of discussions that spawned off in to other threads, or in to private messages.
When I saw there are less than a dozen people currently against the combat tracker suggestion that has been presented here, I am being generous.
Not only are there very few people against it, but those that are against it are unable to give an actual reason as to why they are against it. Those people are also stubborn, and would not alter their opinion on something they have argued over regardless of how futile they realize their argument is (even to the point of arguing factitious cases of slippery slopes).
Essentially, the world values facts less now than it used to, and so some people are happy arguing without any facts to back them up. It's so bad now, in fact, that sometimes these people dont even realize they are making an argument from a tactless perspective.
For the record the argument for combat trackers is that most MMO's are able to alow then without any negative consequence, and many players enjoy using them.
The argument against them seems mostly to involve some herps and a few derps. It is incoherent, there are no solid examples that aren't immediately disproven, basically there is no solid foundation to it as an argument. So why do most games not end up with combat assistants?
At this point, until you can either answer this point or claim that all MMO's have combat assistants, I cant see how you can logically maintain this slippery slope argument.
You know exactly what they mean by Trackers. In fact, you know a ton about Trackers.
You understand the intent. That's the point.
You don't respect that intent at all, and you have no intent in following that despite knowing you are going to click "Agree" on that ToS.
Even if it's an Honor System and they just trust you to follow the ToS that you agreed to, if you decided not to that makes you the bad neighbor. Sure, they can't enforce it, but you understand the intent from the developer and you choose to ignore it. That's the issue.
It's the entire "They can't enforce it so I'm going to do what I want" that makes you the Bad Neighbor. Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.
There are PLENTY of games that open their arms to Trackers, that want them used. Stick to those games then (that is, IF the ToS comes out against Trackers... it's not in stone until the ToS after all).
That's the issue I have with you. You understand the intent, and you simply choose to not respect it and do your own thing anyways. That's not being a Good Neighbor at all.
Let's say it's just Community Guidelines, and in those Guidelines they say they don't want Trackers used. Well there it is, the intent. You understand it. And you disrespect the Community if you then fail to follow those Guidelines.
It's your steadfast refusal under any circumstance. That's not negotiating. That's demanding. It never mattered what Intrepid said, you were going to do your thing regardless. And somehow, to you, that's Good Neighbor Negotiating.
You openly talk about how you will agree to terms that you will then refuse to follow. I appreciate the honesty, I really do... doesn't make you the Good Neighbor here.
A combat tracker, by definition, IS assisting you.
If it wasn't you wouldn't need it. It's assisting you on gathering all the data.
"Why do most games..."
We generally feel MMOs are in a crap state. We don't WANT most MMOs. That's the point of Ashes.
If you want MOST MMOs, go play them. Stop trying to make Ashes into Most MMOs.
They are literally taking this route to distance themselves from 'Most MMOs', because the MMO Community has pretty much said we've endured a Decade of Suckage.
We don't want that Suckage in Ashes. And maybe it fails because it's trying to buck those trends. I'd rather it fail for that, than fail for trying to be like 'Most MMOs'.
So when you bring up 'Most MMOs', yeah... those are all the MMOs we're leaving or have already left. Why in the world would we want that here?
That's like hating the laws in your state, so you move to a different state ran by the other party... and go right back to voting for the party that ran your old state. Don't bring that crap here, you fled that crap already. Now you want to do that here?
We left those games. We don't want that crap here.
Most games have Fast Travel. We don't want that here. Most games don't require any Social to get a group going, you just click a button and you are in a group and in a Dungeon. We don't want that here. Blizzard stood right there on stage and said "You think you want that, but you don't... now you just click a button and you're in the Dungeon". Turns out, we'd rather have the Social aspect back again.
There are certain principles and ideas about Ashes, that are contrary to the current state of MMOs. That's the ENTIRE POINT of Ashes. We don't want Ashes to be all those other MMOs, we're ACTIVELY HERE for something different.
We feel MMOs were ruined, because of all the crap that developers told us we wanted. Why play the game, when you can just pay money and have a Max Character? Why interact with people, when you can just click a button and you're in a Dungeon with a full group? Why travel the world, when you can just click a button and now you're all the way on the other side of it? Turns out, we don't like those things. We don't want those things.
We're leaving THOSE games, to come to THIS one. And the idea of THIS GAME, is that it's not going to do those things.
Now you're coming here saying "All those games do it, we should do it.". No, we shouldn't... and that's WHY we shouldn't. Because our entire feeling (and you can say it's objectively wrong if you like) is that the current state of MMOs SUCKS. We don't want what is currently offered. That's WHY we're here, waiting on and supporting Ashes.
Again, we could be wrong. Current State of MMOs might be awesome. Ashes might try different things and fail. Cool, fine. We'd rather a new attempt, a different strategy. We don't want 'Most MMOs', we're actively fleeing from them... and here you are trying to go against that.
How about just give this game a chance, the way Steven and the Team envision it? That's a thing, a Good Faith thing you could do.
If we wanted most other MMOs, we wouldn't be HERE. I'm not exactly sure why you are here, you don't seem to be down with their vision. Steven has clearly stated the vision, and you're fighting it tooth and nail.
That's weird, man. You'd rather stick around, accept a ToS or Community Guideline you have zero intent of following. When you could just play a game that accepts those things and encourages them.
Meanwhile, the rest of us are fleeing exactly those things, and here you are saying we should put them in the game. We've had that, we've done that, we don't want that here. That's fine there. We don't want it HERE. If we want Trackers, there are places we can go for that. Many many places. The idea here is different, and that difference is why we're here.
That it is acceptable to speculate on the possible consequences of the presence of DPS meters/Combat trackers in a game, without it constituting a fallacious argument.
The false equivalence you drew there however, does lean more towards a fallacy.
It has been the experience of many that DPS meters/Combat trackers lead to less than ideal social interactions and to some level of exclusion. I can appreciate that you may not be one of the perpetrator of said behaviours, but allowing you the opportunity to have them, opens the door for more nefarious people to abuse them in all the wrong ways.
If you wanna use another false equivalence: it's like banning guns (picturing a US situation here). Because one person is capable of using their gun properly and without causing harm to others, doesn't mean that others won't and haven't already caused harm. The easiest solution then? Ban everyone from having access to guns (except maybe the devs for whatever testing reasons etc).