DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Noaani

ThatFaithGuy wrote: »

Yes, it's great when you're topping meters and shredding content, and boy does it feel cool when you're told "great job on that fight! Your DPS was so high!", but do we really want that to be the extent of the content? Just another game where we're playing from a meter?

If this is how the game is being played, then that is the fault of the developers of the content, not of the combat tracker.

Tragnar

@BCG l LordofSalt
Nice vid you got there, but let me ask you - if you took out from cata meters and let the game have those vast amounts of teleports to every forgotten corner with instant port into the entrance (as it did have) - would the game still exclude people?

I defenitely think it would, because they would just not invite any spec that resembles a bad performance regardless of reality and the player's capibility.

I honestly heard from you only the want to keep cross-server play out of the game, limit transportation and no teleports. I have not heard a single argument against meters themselves, but everything against player replacibility and targeted exclusion instead of random/hateful one.

GrinningJack

Tragnar wrote: »

@BCG l LordofSalt
Nice vid you got there, but let me ask you - if you took out from cata meters and let the game have those vast amounts of teleports to every forgotten corner with instant port into the entrance (as it did have) - would the game still exclude people?

I defenitely think it would, because they would just not invite any spec that resembles a bad performance regardless of reality and the player's capibility.

I honestly heard from you only the want to keep cross-server play out of the game, limit transportation and no teleports. I have not heard a single argument against meters themselves, but everything against player replacibility and targeted exclusion instead of random/hateful one.

You kinda lost me sorry?!

Makiii

This may be an odd unobtainable idea but what if you use a proper performance metric instead of a DPS meter? Its exceptionally hard to monitor the performance of an individual in a raid with so many things going on and still be able to do well yourself, as a Guild Leader and Class Leader in my guild I know this to be true. These days there are so many advanced analytic tools that monitor performance. Take for reference League of Legends has a new stats analytics tool that monitors your KDA, Kill Participation, Damage per Death, Gold per Minute, much more then ranks it accordingly to your rank and roll. It seems completely viable to have a similarly driven system surrounding the dungeon and raid experience. A series of analytics surrounding specific encounters in raids and certain dungeons such as Damage per Second and Heals per Second but also include how long they stood in fire, did they switch to the appropriate mob when they were supposed to, how many times did they get hit by a specific mechanic during the encounter. Rank their performance according to other guild mates or possibly even a leaderboard of guilds that ran the encounter before them. As I said before this would be a harder goal to achieve than simply saying "DPS meter or no DPS meter" but it does provide a built in reliable manner of gauging a raiders ability.

Also take into consideration you can award individuals who do very well during a dungeon/raid encounter with better loot. You might even build a community surrounding getting the perfect encounter rating and gear. "Today in Ashes of Creation we are going to get a S rating in the Dark Necropolis dungeon."

This is a thought that can be well expanded upon.

Tragnar

@BCG l LordofSalt
Ok in few words

:

The bad exclusion you were talking about (ppl kicking others for low dps) is a result of fast travel and crossrealm replacibility. If the meters were not present then the leader would just randomly kick few people that he didnt like or specs he thought were doing less than others.

Information is power that is true, but it is not the fault of said information if it is used maliciously.

Also I don't understand in what way meters make it easier to create builds other than not making you count all damage by hand from combat log.

GrinningJack

Tragnar wrote: »

@BCG l LordofSalt
Ok in few words :

The bad exclusion you were talking about (ppl kicking others for low dps) is a result of fast travel and crossrealm replacibility. If the meters were not present then the leader would just randomly kick few people that he didnt like or specs he thought were doing less than others.

Information is power that is true, but it is not the fault of said information if it is used maliciously.

Also I don't understand in what way meters make it easier to create builds other than not making you count all damage by hand from combat log.

Do you have any prove of that? Because the exclusion has been around since before wow classic where crossrealm was not a thing.

Have you ever counted your damage or healing via combat log? As explained having user friendly access to information that displays a certain type of information allows people to test and theorycraft way easier hence why meta builds in games with dps meters happen faster than in others.

Tragnar

Yes exclusion happened, but because of meta gaming. You don't play the correct spec? Then off with you. Meters influence meta towards actual data instead of the community feel of what is best.

Meters have always been invaluable towards my raid teams to figure out where we should change some details to finally beat the boss we have not yet killed.

The exclusion factor is not a binary problem, you cant solve it by disabling one thing that has negative (kicking lowest dps in meters) and positive effects at the same time (good players playing off meta specs actually performing among the best in group and diversifying the meta by small amount)

I have no problem with limiting the availibility of meters to people that can use them productively, but straight up removing them is not a solution to any of the listed problems

Btw yeah I did count combat log in wow before I found out about meters and since then I have also created many spreadsheets for personal use with the class I was playing

Mutantgun

So how Neverwinter Online does theirs is that all damage is printed to a chat log and you can have that log outputted to your drive. We then use the ACT thirdparty program after the run to read that text file and it formats the results into a easy to read table. This table shows damage number from everyone, including mobs, the healing numbers, amount of times you crit, what your average damage was, max hits on all your different abilities, etc.

Here is a guide for how it's used: Here

With this there's no need to make a visual on screen in-game to display dps. One person can run the log and share the screenshots on discord.

Dygz

Yeah. NWO is among the worst with DPS meters toxicity.
Don't follow their example.

Galux

Hate/love relationship for dps meters. It's hands down the best tool for improving your rotation but on the other hand it supports elitism which in my opinion is bad for most games that aren't competetive.

I don't think a game like this should have fights that require perfect rotations to begin with, i'd much rather have fun challenging mechanics than simply a need for perfection with your rotation.

A dps meter shouldn't be in the game as then it will be (by many people) demanded to utilize it to improve. People will figure out ways to measure dps without a meter anyways but then let those few people do that and let the rest of us imagine like we're gods of our class lmao.

Goatrek

Dygz wrote: »

I would rather pay attention to how the members of my group like to play and figure out to best support their tactics than focus on DPS - especially DPS calculated by a meter.
At the end of the day - I care about finding a way for our group to defeat the challenge - I don't really care about the DPS.

This, I agree 100%

Guli

i dont think ashes needs a dps meter, normally when we have dps meters we optimize the fun out of the content. Maybe instead add Achivments like when you do % totalt dmg of a raid/Total healing done/No deaths etc? Maybe a MvP system Dps/healer etc

Dudebruh

DPS meters are bad because people can't play the builds/specs that want to play. You have to play what your raid leader wants you to play. I think it sucks and causes people to chase FOTM builds.

And for PVP, it causes 1/3 of your team to ignore objectives to win matches because they are out in the middle of the map beating away on people. They don't care about "winning" only getting top of the DPS chart at the end of the match.

"Dude, look how much damage I did than other players" Yeah, and we still lost.

Noaani

Dudebruh wrote: »

DPS meters are bad because people can't play the builds/specs that want to play. You have to play what your raid leader wants you to play. I think it sucks and causes people to chase FOTM builds.

Guli wrote: »

i dont think ashes needs a dps meter, normally when we have dps meters we optimize the fun out of the content.

These are not inherent results of combat trackers.

Even without a tracker, people will work out what builds they like, and the game will develop a meta just as other games do.

The issue not having a combat tracker is that once that meta is established, the average player has no real way to break out of it.

This can be explained with a simply thought experiment. Imagine you are a leader of a pickup raid you expect to take 3 hours. With 40 people, that means you are responsible for 120 player/hours, and obviously you want it to be as successful as you can make it.

Your last spot to be filled up needs a healer, and you have two people to pick from. You don't know either player or their guild, and they both have the same gear. One of them is running a build you are familiar with and have had much success with, and the other is running a build you have never seen.

Since you are responsible for 120 player/hours, you are obviously going to pick what is familiar and know to be good.

This is how a meta will form, people will have good experiences with a given build, and tell others. These builds will then become what people look for, and so will become what people use. If you think you have a better build, without a combat tracker you have no real way to prove this to be the case, and so are trapped with either using the builds that everyone uses, or not getting invited in to groups.

Dudebruh

The best combat tracker is a dead raid boss. I could care less if it was killed in 10 mins 13 seconds or 12 minutes 23 seconds.

Noaani

Dudebruh wrote: »

The best combat tracker is a dead raid boss. I could care less if it was killed in 10 mins 13 seconds or 12 minutes 23 seconds.

This is true, if the target dies, all is well.

A combat tracker is only of use in getting to that stage.

Aerlana

People will find a way to have a program like ACT to have parse.

It is the stupidity we see on FFXIV, while all those kind are forbidden, but they can't ban most of users so tolerate them (we clearly see ACT and automatised call when we watch world first race streaming on ultimate bosses) But if you kick a guy for "not enough DPS" you risk a ban... and if you kick him with saying nothing you are fine.
Theres is even a website where you can upload parsers stats. So some people got some of their parses uploaded without even knowing such program exists.

For this, get it in game, if you want, limit what it allows. And for many people it will be enough, less use of external program with no limit. Players will always find ways to be able to chose to optimise even groups/raids. If you give them tool for this but limit what the tool does, you can limit bad behaviour.

Noaani

Aerlana wrote: »

If you give them tool for this but limit what the tool does, you can limit bad behaviour.

This is one of the points I put forward early in this thread in support of the idea of a combat tracker being built in to the game.

It would create fewer issues than leaving the creation and deployment of such a tool to the community, which is what Intrepid have decided to do.

Dygz

Aerlana wrote: »

For this, get it in game, if you want, limit what it allows. And for many people it will be enough, less use of external program with no limit. Players will always find ways to be able to chose to optimise even groups/raids. If you give them tool for this but limit what the tool does, you can limit bad behaviour.

Ashes already has that as a plan.
Personal combat logs only. That's the in-game restriction.

Jxshuwu

Personally i really dislike DPS meters.
I've played MMOs with some people that are newer to MMO's and i have experienced multiple times that my friends are getting votekicked because they can't keep up with the dps. ESPECIALLY in WoW! Idk what it is about WoW but man there is something wrong with those players, just overall not nice people to talk to (again, in my experience).

I want to see the MMO genre grow in playerbase aswell as in games, and DPS meter is like an invitation to toxicity which makes the MMO's less new-player friendly. This wouldn't be the games/dps meters fault, but the toxic playerbases fault, but not putting it in is a simple way to prevent a good chunk of toxicity.

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